Religion?? - A survey on religious views

[RedComrade]

I myself happen to be an explicit atheist and Im sure most've you have heard the stereotype of the atheistic nature of marxists. First of all I am wandering if this stereotype is reflected in real life and if any members of the opposing ideologies happen to find themselves in a minority religious camp. This post is not meant to encourage hostility or promote one view over another but merely to foster peaceful dialogue from fellow comrades and the like on the issue. I know some of you may be a bit touchy on the subject but I encourage you to share, it is one of the most important and interesting topics concerning the human pysche. So if you dont feel uncomfortable sound off on your religious views and/or if they tie into you politics. Syonara Comrades

(Edited by RedComrade at 3:42 am on Feb. 11, 2003)

[Anonymous]

Atheist.

[SonofRage]

Wiccan.

[synthesis]

Quote: from SonofRage on 4:57 am on Feb. 11, 2003
Wiccan.

Heathen!

[Anonymous]

Silence the heretic!

[SonofRage]

bah

[Guest1]

never mind

(Edited by Che y Marijuana at 12:40 am on Feb. 11, 2003)

[thursday night]

"Religion is an opium of the masses."

I firmly believe in this and believe that all religion should be discouraged by the socialist state. It serves no purpose but to drive the working people away from Marxism-Leninism and to increase insubordinate activities.

[ID2002]

Crap...
socialist countries have long since had a freedom of religion. Marxism again, does NOT condemn all world religions. You would be incorrect to say so. Monotheism cause 99% of problems within this world. Marx was opposed to the divisive nature of "western ideology" he stated NOTHING about "Eastern ideology".

...okay... Cuba for instance has allowed the Catholic Church survices, and other small state approved churches to open up. Fidel himself has attended Catholic church often. He is a "Communist" yet he is able to do both. Do you consider him a traitor to his state? I don't.
Fidel is a brillant leader, and want his people to be happy living in Communist state...so he is flexable yet strong in his ways.



(Edited by ID2002 at 8:18 am on Feb. 11, 2003)

[Saint-Just]

The philosophy of Marxism is dialectical materialism. Religion is a product of the reactionary ideology of idealist metamorphism. Therefore religion is most absolutely opposed to Marxism. Just about every Marzist-Leninist state has removed religion from society.

In Cuba the nation was so profoundly catholic it would have been impossible to do so. Castro himself was not religious, he did go to church and adorn a crucifix occasionally so as not to offend the mass of catholic population.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Atheist.

I think seperation of "state and church" is a good thing and that's the farest interfierence a state can have with a religion.

[Umoja]

*Puts his Quaker tab down, silently*

[Just Joe]

Roman Catholic.

anti-religion Communists are just bigots in red.

[ID2002]

I hear what you are saying...but again the term "religion" is a broad term. There are small number Buddhist groups in Cuba (Chinese Buddhism, Japanese Buddhism...Roman Catholic etc) these were state approved, and they promote Fidels leadership. Fidel obviously isn't concerned with "in house" private worship.

If it promotes wholeness with the state then....whats the problem? I don't see any.

[Tkinter1]

How do you atheists explain our existence? I've always wondered that..

[Anonymous]

we are a product of the evolution of the monkey, we diverged from the moneky and began to creat a consience...

we are nothing but a product of nature and matter....

tehre is no hell, heaven, souls, gods etc... just living and non-living matter...

[thursday night]

"anti-religion Communists are just bigots in red."

If you think a bigot is somebody who hates religion for all the evil it creates in this world then yes, by your standards I am a bigot.

[Tkinter1]

we are a product of the evolution of the monkey, we diverged "from the moneky and began to creat a consience...

we are nothing but a product of nature and matter....

tehre is no hell, heaven, souls, gods etc... just living and non-living matter... "

What made nature? What made matter? Who are YOU to say that there is no hell, heaven, soul, god etc...

[Just Joe]

If you think a bigot is somebody who hates religion for all the evil it creates in this world then yes, by your standards I am a bigot.

you said it, not me. discrimination based on religion is bigotry.

religion has created very little evil compared to Stalinism.

[RedCeltic]

Ever hear of a Christian Socialist?

I'm a Socialist Wiccan..:)

As for what Marx said about Religion it doesn't apply to me because I don't follow a "Relgion" I follow a spiritual path.

http://www.boomspeed.com/boyle/red2.gif

BTW: I don't give a crap what you think of Wicca as long as you Xtians and Athiests respect my rights.

[Just Joe]

are you a Marxist?

[RedCeltic]

I'm an anarcho-socialist. I believe in alot of things Marx said but I refrain from calling myself a "Marxist" because that would imply that I follow his teachings like they where holy scripture.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from thursday night on 5:47 am on Feb. 11, 2003
"Religion is an opium of the masses."

I firmly believe in this and believe that all religion should be discouraged by the socialist state. It serves no purpose but to drive the working people away from Marxism-Leninism and to increase insubordinate activities.


Athiest.

However Marxist Leninist is considered un-true by many so should we ban communism???



Just Joe Posted on 8:33 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
If you think a bigot is somebody who hates religion for all the evil it creates in this world then yes, by your standards I am a bigot.

you said it, not me. discrimination based on religion is bigotry.

religion has created very little evil compared to Stalinism.


What you mean like the crusades, 9/11, the spanish inquisition. Even the Holacaust. But no your quite right they are completely meaning less because the all knowing Joe knows best. :)

[RedCeltic]

You forgot the Witch Burnings


I don't want to sound anti-Xtian however ;)

[RedComrade]

Websters Dictionary : Bigot- Someone who holds blindly to a particular creed, opinion etc.

Now if we were to run around shouting mindless rhetoric like "Fuck Jesus Man!" I could understand you labeling us as bigots however by conventional standards it is much more likely for a religious person to be a bigot. Atheism is not a creed or beleif to follow blindly it is the lack of beleif. However religion on the other hand requires a person to follow a supposed deity with no physical evidence, no day to day impact, and quite frankly no purpose. Religion not atheism is bigotry at least by Websters Dictionary standards. I and many other would be more than happy to debate religion with you friend but dont label us as bigots because we lack beleif in an absurd claim with no evidence and no factual relevancy in day to day affairs. As for religion doing much less damage then stalinism even I a Trotskyist and firm hater of Stalin can recognize the absurdity of such a claim. I would reccomend reading on any or all of the following topics: The crusades, Catholic Inquistions, Islamic Fundamentalism, The situation in what i assume is your homeland of Ireland, The reformation and all the wars that came with the division of the christian faith, i can go on and on if you wish. Furthermore the religion itself is the most hateful, exclusive beleif of all; it is the worship of a system in which a murderer wearing the title christian is rewarded with eternal paradise but the great human being such as ghandi who happens to have a different title is assigned eternal torture for his heresy. This is the worship of the most Nazi-like justice system conceivable by man.

[Mazdak]

Vehemently anti religious and atheistic i am. I have already dealt with religious debates here and caused enough controversy, so i will leave it at that for now.

[RedCeltic]

What people never realize is that it's the institution of religion that is the problem, not one's personal spirituality.

When religion is organized into a hiearchy of priests who hold religion hostage from the populous as capitalists hold the aperatus of production hostage from the people... it is then you have opression.

Attacking relgion is pointless, it's as attacking people for working for a living rather than attacking the capitalists who leach off the workers.

[RedCeltic]

People need to break from their organized institutions of religion and make it a personal thing once again... not highly regemented dogma and meaningless ritual.

[Tkinter1]

"When religion is organized into a hiearchy of priests who hold religion hostage from the populous"

Please explain this.

[Invader Zim]

religion thru out history has been a tool to control, subdue and profit from the masses, it has no place in a socioty. (private argument between me and Moskitto from his own forum but you guys join in)

[RedCeltic]

I'm talking about the difference between organized religion and personal spirituality. The difference between one's own right to interpet their spiritual path and identity vs. being told what to believe by a priest because he/she went to seminary.

[Invader Zim]

I thought you were talking about the fudal system of the church but whatever.

[Just Joe]

What you mean like the crusades, 9/11, the spanish inquisition. Even the Holacaust.

9/11 was mainly politics. the terrorists didn't fly the planes into the Vatican, they flew them into the WTC. manily due to the American support for Zionism.

the Holocaust was fuck all to do with religion. Hitler hated Jews as a race, even atheist Jews. Hitler was not religious himself.

and i doubt the death toll of the Crusades and the Inquisition add up to the millions of deaths caused by atheist Stalinism.

[Just Joe]

RedComrade, when people start talking about banning religion, you become a bigot because you want to persecute people for what they do in there spare time or what they were raised to think. there are some Communists who want religion banned out right and some go even further.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Just Joe on 9:47 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
What you mean like the crusades, 9/11, the spanish inquisition. Even the Holacaust.

9/11 was mainly politics. the terrorists didn't fly the planes into the Vatican, they flew them into the WTC. manily due to the American support for Zionism.

the Holocaust was fuck all to do with religion. Hitler hated Jews as a race, even atheist Jews. Hitler was not religious himself.

and i doubt the death toll of the Crusades and the Inquisition add up to the millions of deaths caused by atheist Stalinism.


You will find that in any decent history book it says that the Anti Sematism is a direct result of the belief that the Jews killed Jesus christ. If that is not religious than you have a very closed mind. Any way Hitler was not the main instigator of the Holacaust Hienrik Himmler was and he was religious, as was gobbles, ect.

9/11 yes thats true however if the terrorists had not been religious fanatics who believed that they were in a holy war that would have happened?

[Just Joe]

anti-semitism is a hatred for the semitic race. it doesn't just mean the Jewish religion. if you honestly think the Nazis hated Jews because of some Christian fundamentalist idea, you have no clue about Nazi ideology. race was everything. anything else was nothing.

september 11th was not religiously motivated as i said. they could have flew those planes anywhere, but went into the Pentagon, the headquarters of there enemy the US Army, and the WTC, the ultimate symbol of American economic power.

[RedComrade]

Ahh Joe you twist my words, site once were i advocated the banning of religion. I merely stated I am diametrically opposed to it, as far as actually banning it no I do not feel it would be practical or affective. Concerning the death tolls surrounding religion yes they are in the millions like i said I encourage you to read more on any of the many religious episodes i listed and you will see the horrors of blind faith at work. Red Celt I have not necessarily attacked individual spirituality althought i do beleive faith and gods and supernatural "beings" and the like are all a crock of shit no matter if there brought up in the church or an individuals ritual circle it makes no difference to me its all lies. However I agree religion is much more harmful the only problem is in my opinion one leads to the other (an individual practicing spirituality will soon seek out others doing the same and the scourge returns)....

[Invader Zim]

Joe you are to stubborn to argue with but i am telling you that anti semetic is the hatred of the jew and their religion as i will show you: -

"an·ti-Sem·ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews or those who follow Judaism.

"anti-Se·mitic (-s-mtk) adj."

This is a direct copy from my dictionary. As you can see it shows Judaism, if you look that up you will see it is a religion.

This is all i have to say. If you are so stubborn to believe that religion is not an excuse for the blood thirsty or cruel to persicute the people lower in the fudal system then i will not stop you.

[Just Joe]

i did say 'when people', not 'when you' :)

like everything, theres an extremist element in the anti-religion camp. i'd like to hear what some of the Stalinists suggest.

[Moskitto]

Even the Holacaust

The holocaust had nothing to do with religion, the nazis were atheists (unless you consider believing germany is god is religious, which it isn't) the jews were jewish, if you blame the holocaust on religion, I might as well blame every christian massecre on non-christians.

[Just Joe]

AK-47, what grounds are you basing that the Nazis hate for Jews was religious?

[Invader Zim]

Moskitto as i have pointed out Himmler and co were religios, perhaps not Hitler but Hitler is not the embodyment of all Nazis.

[James]

Don't know if this is relevent.
But hitler set up his own religion, it was rather pagan, and was basically hitler worshipping on a bigger scale. Only parts of the SS took it seriously though...

(i'm a "buddhist" btw)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Just Joe on 10:23 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
AK-47, what grounds are you basing that the Nazis hate for Jews was religious?


If the jews had not Killed Jesus then do you think that they would be persicuted. If they had not then been persicuted then people would not have grown up with a hatred of Jews. If they had not had a hatred of jews their would have been no Holacaust. So if you follow the line back then you find religion.


Religion....Hate......Holacaust

Being a biologist Moskitto you can surely see this is like a food chain.

Cabbage.....Rabbit....Fox.

But still their is always the green plant of religion at the bottom of the chain.

[Moskitto]

If you want to know about nazi germany, read this http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE3.HTM

[Moskitto]

actually, it's more like action--->hate--->holocaust, people only hate because of actions, hating because of religions means humans are the problem.

[Just Joe]

AK, if you knew about National Socialist ideology, you'd know religion played almost no part in Hitlers hate for Jews. a few reasons:

-Jewish involvment with Communsim which Hitler saw as anti-German and anti-Nationalist

-Jewish involvment in Germany losing WWI

-Jews controlling the imperial powers therefore being responsible for Versaille.

-Jews controlling a lot of German capital therefore being at fault for Germanys economic problems.

(Edited by Just Joe at 10:37 pm on Feb. 11, 2003)


(Edited by Just Joe at 10:39 pm on Feb. 11, 2003)

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from James on 4:29 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
Don't know if this is relevent.
But hitler set up his own religion, it was rather pagan, and was basically hitler worshipping on a bigger scale. Only parts of the SS took it seriously though...

(i'm a "buddhist" btw)


Hitler was NOT a Pagan. Nazi Paganism was all to do with National pride than an actual religious belief. Hitler was an Xtian and he said so many times.

Actual Germanic Neo-Paganism did not come about untill 1972... and then, it was out of Iceland not Germany.

It's because of this myth that practicianers of Asatru, Hethendom, and Odenism (neo-pagan religions) have a hard time explaining that they are not Racists.

[James]

haha, sorry RC. As soon as i saw your post it hit me...

Yes i'm sorry; it had pagan elements. But then again, most religions do...

[Umoja]

I've heard, that by the end of Hitlers reign, people would swear Oaths in his name, which doesn't seem very Christian.... Oh well.

[RedCeltic]

That's ok James... I was also wrong in saying he was an Xtian. In fact Hitler was good at using religion as a tool of manipulation, he used the hatered of religious groups.. the Jews yes.. but also Catholics. And he used Pagan elements for national Germanic pride and and also used Xtian elements to gain support of religious institutions.

Historicly, religious leadership has been much more powerful than the state. This was a problem for some like Henery VIII of England who consolidated the power of Church and State.

On a personal and community level, religious belief is a benificial thing, athiests always seem to be content in ignoring that for some people spirituality is a moving experience that drives many become life long humaniterians.

However on the other end of the spectrum, religious people often tend to ignore the horrors that comes along with religious hiearchy and organized religion.

I'm not saying all religions should be like Wicca... Leaderless, without holy scripture, orgnisation, or power. However they should not be pernited to grow into great powerful isntitutions, and not be permited to hold higher status than the rest of us. (IE: Churches should be taxed)

I am NOT against Xtians... Even Catholics although I view the Catholic church as the best example of evil and coruption.

And if I was dictator for a day (lol) There would surely be freedom of religious expression. However I would dismantle the aperatus of every religious institution.

This includes any and all atempt of Pagans to create so called federations and covanants.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Umoja on 5:19 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
I've heard, that by the end of Hitlers reign, people would swear Oaths in his name, which doesn't seem very Christian.... Oh well.


Jesus Christ! You've gotta be joking! ;)

[Moskitto]

annother thing, Hitler turned back on a deal he made with the catholic church that they would leave him alone if he left them alone, and he turned the protestant church into the "Reich Church" (worship of the empire) and arrested leaders who didn't agree. very christian...

[I Bow 4 Che]

I had been Atheist previously but after severe depression I converted to Zen Buddhism.

For those of you who claim that state should be seperate from religon (which i whole-heartedly agree with) then your political beliefs should be seperated from your religous beliefs as well.

I myself do not believe in god however I respect and even envy those who do. To be able to actually truly honestly believe that there is some "thing" up there patrolling, making sure things don't get "too" out of hand. I wish I could believe that...with no doubts.

The only people who bother me are Agnostics. They're just scared (closet) atheists.

[Mazdak]

ROFL. Respect someone for having blind faith and not having the ability to think.

Envy blind faith? Thats the most absurd thing i have ever heard.

It would be like admiring/envying the SS for carrying out orders to commit atrocities or genocide out of blind faith

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Mazdak on 5:47 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
ROFL. Respect someone for having blind faith and not having the ability to think.

Envy blind faith? Thats the most absurd thing i have ever heard.

It would be like admiring/envying the SS for carrying out orders to commit atrocities or genocide out of blind faith

Again... Blind faith is an aspect of institutionalized religion... not an aspect of individual spirituality.

Remember... not all Religious people are actually spiritually minded people. This includes Preachers who may teach relgion as their job, and be faithful by fear of etermal Damnation, but are not very spiritual people.

Evidence of this is child molestation, etc...

[Mazdak]

Yes, but what of those who attack abortion clinics? what of those who are genuinely spiritual. covering it up with claims that it is the institutions' fault doesnt work. Religion still is a divider. Those of different religions can relate on less. They see each other as distant and distrust each other. It is simple. Color divides people the same way, but it is something that cannot be changed. Religion and nationalistic ideals CAN be changed. The majority prefer dealing with members of their own race, religion, and nation. Race cannot be changed, but religion can, and nationalist ideals can be crushed. So why allow such barriers to exist?

[Umoja]

Because we need to be individuals. Just because we are divided doesn't mean we aren't equal on the whole.

[abstractmentality]

Quote: from Mazdak on 3:58 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
Race cannot be changed

i know this is being picky, but race is cultural more than anything else. race is influenced by biology, but is not static because of biology.

btw, i am an atheist. although, i am not of the sort of atheist that believe any type of religion should be banned.

[RedCeltic]

People who blow up abortion clinics are not doing it because they are "moved by the holy spirit" they are doing it because they are nuts and belong in a hospital for the criminaly insane.

I would say than there is a small percentage of people in the United States that are spiritual. There are drasticly more people that are spiritual (regardless of religion) in the third world than in the first. This is becasue people in the third world are closer to the natural/spiritual world.

In post industrial America we are so far removed from the natural/spiritual world and our new Gods are printed with "Leagal Tender" on it.

I could say that Ben Franklin on the $100 bill told me to knock over a bank because my God needed to be liberated. That's not spirituality.

A spiritual path only becomes a major problem when you truly believe that your way is the only way and you make it your mission to force everyone else to believe the way you do.

That's why I consider some Athiests (like Mazdak) to be just as dangerous as Xtian fundemtalists. Both try to force their belief on other people.

[I Bow 4 Che]

Yes I envy blind faith. It's real to them...they truly believe what they convince themselves is there. The whole idea of god to me though, is absurd. That's why it pains me to see " God Rocks my World" stickers all over my freinds body parts.

[Anonymous]

The machine is the embodiment of man's mind.


I get the same "spiritual high" when I walk into a nuclear power plant as I used to get when I was a born-again baptist. Just watching those giant spinning turbines pump out hundreds of thousands of volts of raw power is truly awe inspiring. It always reminds me of humanity's greatness and glorious will to dominance.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from I Bow 4 Che on 6:34 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
Yes I envy blind faith. It's real to them...they truly believe what they convince themselves is there. The whole idea of god to me though, is absurd. That's why it pains me to see " God Rocks my World" stickers all over my freinds body parts.



Why does it bother you so much that someone may have a different point of view than you?

It seems to me that the greater majority of Athiests are just Xtians without the church. They are all about controling how other people think.

[abstractmentality]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 4:57 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
It seems to me that the greater majority of Athiests are just Xtians without the church. They are all about controling how other people think.
Not me :)

[I Bow 4 Che]

No it doesn't. If you read some of my previous posts RC I have NO problem with Religous people, more than half of the people I idolize and respect are all very religous. Why it bothers me is because if I put a "God sucks ass" sticker or even "Satan rocks my world" sticker all over my body parts, it's considered horrible and immoral.

[RedCeltic]

yea... I see your point. Although I think the Xtian God does suck ass.. but that's another story. ;)

[Eastside Revolt]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 12:49 am on Feb. 12, 2003
The machine is the embodiment of man's mind.


I get the same "spiritual high" when I walk into a nuclear power plant as I used to get when I was a born-again baptist. Just watching those giant spinning turbines pump out hundreds of thousands of volts of raw power is truly awe inspiring. It always reminds me of humanity's greatness and glorious will to dominance.


Are you trying to get a rise out of us?

[Anonymous]

No. That is how I really feel.

[RedCeltic]

Yea.. I was kind of ignoring Dark Capitalist's post there but if he truly believed in "humanities greatness" "raw Power" etc etc... he would be dangerous with a copy of Anton Levay's book.

Satanism (his version anyway) and Chaotic Magick are all about the greatness of man and rising to his fullest potential, and harnessing raw energy for personal gain.

[Eastside Revolt]

Then I hopr that one day you will have to lives through a nuclear winter, just long enough so that you can die slowly of radiation sickness.

[RedCeltic]

be careful what you wish for!

[Anonymous]

I'd didn't think my beliefs were in line with those of satanists. :shocked:

[Anonymous]

No, my beliefs are closer to those of Objectivists.

I checked the church of satan website. They're idiots.

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 6:32 am on Feb. 12, 2003)

[RedComrade]

From my best understanding Satanism is atheism with an attitude. It is the worship of worldly things. Of mans ability pleasure etc although i dont know anything in great detail. However i certainly dont think this is any worse or even near as bad as christianity. My major problem with christianity is the idea of hell. They worship a system that rewards not deeds but titles and allegiances if hitler was a christian he could be in heaven yet ghandi who didnt accept jesus is being eternally tortured? If that is not barbaric and hateful than what is.....

[RedCeltic]

A religious path doesn't neccerialy believe in a diety or a "litteral deity" at any rate.

For myself..I'm a Wiccan, and while many wiccans will say they believe in a Goddess and God. I believe the Goddess and God are representations of male and female energies that are in every living thing.

I don't actually believe in a supreme being... my spiritual path is more of a philosophy and way of life. However.. I'm no athiest.. and I don't view Satanists as such. Athiesm is it's own spiritual path. The believe in the mundane existance as all there is to it.

Satainists do not actually believe in Satan as a God. However they do believe in the spiritual, and are known to use Magick. Aton Levey, actually talks about Magick, and I think he discribes it fairly well.

[redstar2000]

Were you folks really unaware that there is an even longer thread on this very topic in the Theory Forum? :confused:

Looking over the previous 7 pages of this thread, I see the same old rubbish cropping up.

"Stalinist bigots" want to "force" people to stop believing in their favorite supersition. Yeah, right.

"Stalinists" have killed lots more people than religious fundamentalists. Sure, whatever you say.

Hitler was an "atheist". Of course he was; that's why he was always at such great pains to publicly declare that he "was sent by God to redeem Germany".

People in the third world are closer to the natural/spiritual world. I'll say they are...just get on the Lhasa Freeway and take exit 16!

"I envy blind faith." Yes, blindness is such an enviable state, I wonder why we don't quit fooling around, borrow Umoja's stick and apply it to its intended target!

And so on and so on and so on. (Not to mention the fellow that gets a "spiritual high" upon entering a nuclear power plant...positively glows with holiness, I'll bet.)

Have you "believers" no real arguments? Are you indeed reduced to this kind of silliness? Does it all really boil down to "I'll believe what I want to...and you can't make me do otherwise because I won't listen to you!"?

Well, I have good news, if not a "gospel", for you: you're safe! There is no known reasonable argument that can penetrate a determined refusal to be reasonable. I wish there were, but if it exists, I haven't found it.

One would think that the clear lack of evidence for anything "spiritual" would be the crucial point...yet it is dismissed with the absurd counter-argument that I "can't prove" it ain't so. I also can't prove that any of you don't have three arms, six legs, and a dozen eyes...at least not without a personal visit. But I don't believe it's so.

redstar2000..."Garbage Collector of the Gods" :cool:

[abstractmentality]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 5:56 pm on Feb. 11, 2003[br Athiesm is it's own spiritual path. The believe in the mundane existance as all there is to it.
i consider myself an atheist because of the very essence of the word: without belief. as simple as that. i do not have a belief, therefore i am an atheist.

[Mazdak]

My view is simple. Religion is counterproductive. Is it not obvious that religion is trying to halt progress(stem cell research, euthanasia, abortion) and continue the old ways. It is decaying but refuses to relinquish its hold on people's minds. Atheists do not hold back progress but embrace it. How is it a threat? A rather liberal person like yourself(RC) should be in full support of stem cell research, euthanasia and abortion.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Mazdak on 8:50 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
My view is simple. Religion is counterproductive. Is it not obvious that religion is trying to halt progress(stem cell research, euthanasia, abortion) and continue the old ways. It is decaying but refuses to relinquish its hold on people's minds. Atheists do not hold back progress but embrace it. How is it a threat? A rather liberal person like yourself(RC) should be in full support of stem cell research, euthanasia and abortion.

And I am Mazdak. You think because I have a religion that I don't? I'm not a Christian. Hell not even all Christians think those are bad.

Have you ever heard of the Zero population movement? That kind of goes with my philosophy. I think we need to drasticly reduce the numbers of people we have on earth by people having only one or two kids.

I do not put humans about the earth but see us as an interconnected aspect of the biosphere. Christians put man above earth. Pagans however see man as part of the earth.

[Umoja]

Christians put, at least in my view, humans as the inheritors of the Earth, and as such we are obligated to take care of it, since I really doubt we're going to get much better places to live them this little orb.

[RedCeltic]

Yes, in Christianity we are inheritors of the Earth. However that is subject to interpitation. Eather we are obliged to take care of it, or it's our right as it's master to exploit it. Also... Christianity does not always mean that everyone can get to heaven.

Pagan relgions however are earth based religions and the core idea of their foundation is that everyone and everything has aspects of the God and Goddess. The gods are not distatched supreme beings ruling us in an ivory castle up in the sky. The Gods are the primal life source that runs through all our veins and keeps us spiritually connected to all living matter.

You could argue that the "Holy Spirit" in Christianity is this for them. However 1) this is simply an attempt to introduce yet another pagan element into their relgion. and 2) Not every Christian believes this.

But, one thing that true followers of Christianity would agree with is that religion should not be something that one practices because they feel they need to, or are presured into. Those that go door to door trying to presure you into religion, or those who's extent of religious practice is to go to sleap through mass on sunday, are not truly spiritual people.

It is far better for one to practice their faith behind closed doors. For what they do is between them and their God(s). Rather than those who profess their religion on the street corner, for they need to justify their faith by converting others which showes they have no true faith at all.

[Moskitto]

Hitler was an "atheist". Of course he was; that's why he was always at such great pains to publicly declare that he "was sent by God to redeem Germany".

Hitler believed Germany was God, believing Germany is god is different to believing in a monotheistic god.

[RedCeltic]

hitler was also out of his fucking mind.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 3:20 am on Feb. 12, 2003

Quote: from Mazdak on 8:50 pm on Feb. 11, 2003
My view is simple. Religion is counterproductive. Is it not obvious that religion is trying to halt progress(stem cell research, euthanasia, abortion) and continue the old ways. It is decaying but refuses to relinquish its hold on people's minds. Atheists do not hold back progress but embrace it. How is it a threat? A rather liberal person like yourself(RC) should be in full support of stem cell research, euthanasia and abortion.

And I am Mazdak. You think because I have a religion that I don't? I'm not a Christian. Hell not even all Christians think those are bad.

Have you ever heard of the Zero population movement? That kind of goes with my philosophy. I think we need to drasticly reduce the numbers of people we have on earth by people having only one or two kids.

I do not put humans about the earth but see us as an interconnected aspect of the biosphere. Christians put man above earth. Pagans however see man as part of the earth.



You do also realize it is only posssible to reduce the population through force. Asking people to have less children will never happen. In fact, technology today is being developed to to help allow couples to have MORE children. Is it possible to force people to have less children in a system where people get to choose what they want. That point is not based on religion, however if you politically want more freedom, then how do you expect to actually see the population lowered if not through brutal methods(ie, war or mass sterilization)?

(please note I do not support war as a method to control population). However, i do not want to derail the topic so i will try to make this the last post of this sort.

[Saint-Just]

'how do you expect to actually see the population lowered if not through brutal methods(ie, war or mass sterilization)?

(please note I do not support war as a method to control population)'

Are you saying you would support mass sterilisation?
It is not needed, if couples only have one child the population will be lowered. Sterilisation is entirely unnecessary.

[Invader Zim]

Religion is bad for a num ber of reasons: -

1. It has and will be used to control people. Take the terrorists form al-quida they believe if they kill americans they will go to heaven.

2. It is used to make people afraid and subdue them. If you fanatically believed in god and you were told that unless you paid yor taxes and be a good citizain and bumb fuck the upper classes you would be sent to hell. OR WORSE EXCOMMUNICATED.

3. The Roman Catholic church has been through out history been one of the largest land holders. It also has been of the richest organisations to exist. Hmm very good dont you recon. Give cash to the poor in the bible, yet gods representatives on earth hord cash!!

4. Also it is a way for people to explain those things they do not understand such as the meaning of life, when was the world made, who created earth, ect. Personally i cant see the reason why peoiple have to create a mystical enteity but never mind.

[Just Joe]

"Stalinist bigots" want to "force" people to stop believing in their favorite supersition. Yeah, right.

most Stalinists want religion banned. i don't think youre a Stalinist, but you seem to hate the act of going to Church on a sunday aswell.

"Stalinists" have killed lots more people than religious fundamentalists. Sure, whatever you say.

Pol Pot alone killed 2,000,000. Stalin killed maybe 20,000,000 and Mao killed more than that.

all youre arguments are the same. you want 'proof'. well there is no proof. you can only have faith. i'm not asking you to have faith but at least respect others like you would there opinions.

i know in the other thread you said something about holding a referendum to ban religion. a land where people live by the tyranny of the majority and mob rule is not what i think Marx and Engels had in mind. Marx even advocates total seperation in his 'demands of the Communist party'.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Just Joe on 10:37 pm on Feb. 12, 2003
"Stalinist bigots" want to "force" people to stop believing in their favorite supersition. Yeah, right.

most Stalinists want religion banned. i don't think youre a Stalinist, but you seem to hate the act of going to Church on a sunday aswell.

"Stalinists" have killed lots more people than religious fundamentalists. Sure, whatever you say.

Pol Pot alone killed 2,000,000. Stalin killed maybe 20,000,000 and Mao killed more than that.

all youre arguments are the same. you want 'proof'. well there is no proof. you can only have faith. i'm not asking you to have faith but at least respect others like you would there opinions.

i know in the other thread you said something about holding a referendum to ban religion. a land where people live by the tyranny of the majority and mob rule is not what i think Marx and Engels had in mind. Marx even advocates total seperation in his 'demands of the Communist party'.

Joe feel i must warn you about the course you have taken. This argument has happened like 100 times on this page, it is one of the biggest arguments on this site, and you have just re-started it (possibly) and the stalinists will never listen to reason.

[redstar2000]

AK47 is right: the "body count" arguments are unending and unresolvable given the limits of available evidence.

Which, of course, won't stop people believing that their own favorite villain was the "biggest murderer" of all.

Moskitto, Hitler in his own words believed in a monotheistic "God" and said so both publicly and privately on numerous occasions; it is true that he was not a "Christian" (though he was raised Catholic and, curiously enough, never excommunicated)...but he was definitely a monotheist and he did not "worship" Germany or even the Ayran "race" as a "god."

JustJoe is feeling the heat: when I propose that the removal of religion from public life be done following approval of a national referendum after wide-spread discussion and debate...JJ suddenly raises the question of "tyranny of the majority" and even "mob rule." It doesn't sound as if he has much "faith" in the outcome of the plebiscite, does it?

JJ, you can spend your Sunday mornings any way you wish...including "worship" if that's your desire. But there won't be any "churches" to go to, because they are "propaganda in stone" and will have been demolished. But you and those who believe like you will have perfect freedom to gather in your homes and "worship" a pair of old boots, if that's what appeals to you. Remember, the "first Christians" didn't have or need cathedrals...if your faith is "true", why should you need them?

"There is no proof; you can only have faith." Then, what's the point?

:cool:

[Anonymous]

Didn't Hitler refer to "Providence" or "Divine Providence" on a few occaisions?

[thursday night]

"Christians put, at least in my view, humans as the inheritors of the Earth, and as such we are obligated to take care of it, since I really doubt we're going to get much better places to live them this little orb."

Yes, and obviously taking care of the Earth is to slow it’s progress (note that I do not support environmental destruction, in fact I am quite a bit of an environmentalist myself), but this is totally an oxymoronic state of mind. Umoja, you are a Christian (Quaker I believe you have stated before), and the fact that you are part of some ritualistic cult and also post a forum dedicated to Che Guevara and internationalism really just sickens me.

"Pol Pot alone killed 2,000,000. Stalin killed maybe 20,000,000 and Mao killed more than that."

There is no proof of any of this rubbish, and to think as such is nothing more than intellectual masturbation.

"Are you saying you would support mass sterilisation?"

I personally don’t think sterilization is required to lower the population numbers (sterilization just disables you from reproducing, not from being able to have intercourse, right? If it makes intercourse in pleasurable or impossible, then doing so would be terribly cruel! ;) ) Just look at the People’s Republic of China, for all it’s faults and revisionism their ‘one child per couple’ decree has been quite successful.

[thursday night]

Wow. The words 'sterilization,' 'masturbation,' and 'intercourse' all appeared in a single post of mine. That may just be the most vocabularicly sexual post I've ever made. ;)

[Palmares]

Quote: from thursday night on 2:46 pm on Feb. 13, 2003
Wow. The words 'sterilization,' 'masturbation,' and 'intercourse' all appeared in a single post of mine. That may just be the most vocabularicly sexual post I've ever made. ;)

Communism doesn't mean no sex and no children afterall. Trying to control a society as much as sterilizing the population is somewhat foolish. It could lead to our extinction. Anyway, you know what they say, nature finds a way.

[Umoja]

I'm curious how Quakerism count as a cult any more then being a Che admirer counts as a cult?

[Just Joe]

AK47 is right: the "body count" arguments are unending and unresolvable given the limits of available evidence.

in other words, the Stalinists dismiss anything that doesn't claim Stalin to be the new messiah as 'Capitalist Propaganda'.

JustJoe is feeling the heat: when I propose that the removal of religion from public life be done following approval of a national referendum after wide-spread discussion and debate...JJ suddenly raises the question of "tyranny of the majority" and even "mob rule." It doesn't sound as if he has much "faith" in the outcome of the plebiscite, does it?

i don't care what the referendum would say. i don't think anyone would really bother to vote but the whole point is the majority cannot dictate to the individual. i don't like National Socialism or Stalinism, but if there was a referendum to ban parties with those ideologies, you'd be damn sure i'd vote against it. you see redstar2000, youre using Nazi logic. the Nazi logic is, we can oppress ethnic minorities, because we dont feel they deserve rights. youre doing the same thing only replacing ethinc minorities with religious followers and people with money. although you are well read and understand Marxism a lot more than most here, youre basically a closet Stalinist.

JJ, you can spend your Sunday mornings any way you wish...including "worship" if that's your desire. But there won't be any "churches" to go to, because they are "propaganda in stone" and will have been demolished.

youre willing to take away the rights of millions of good people because of youre own narrow minded atheism. i'd look further into actually what youre saying here and just how oppressive it really is.

But you and those who believe like you will have perfect freedom to gather in your homes and "worship" a pair of old boots, if that's what appeals to you. Remember, the "first Christians" didn't have or need cathedrals...if your faith is "true", why should you need them?

dictatorship of the mob is still dictatorship. i'm dissapointed you advocate such tryanny.

"There is no proof; you can only have faith." Then, what's the point?

i'm not asking you to agree, just to accept other peoples point of view. which you don't want to do. if people want to gather in church on sunday, they will. youre communist revolution would last about 2 hours if you started bulldozing these places.

i wonder, have you had a bad experience with the Church? were you once a Christian? youre bitterness seems extreme even for a Communist.







(Edited by Just Joe at 1:38 pm on Feb. 13, 2003)


(Edited by Just Joe at 1:43 pm on Feb. 13, 2003)

[Moskitto]

Moskitto, Hitler in his own words believed in a monotheistic "God" and said so both publicly and privately on numerous occasions; it is true that he was not a "Christian" (though he was raised Catholic and, curiously enough, never excommunicated)...but he was definitely a monotheist and he did not "worship" Germany or even the Ayran "race" as a "god."

actually, you'll find the whole point of nazi ideology was that germany was god, modern nazis are also atheists.

[Mazdak]

ROFL. So These idiots feel more solidarity with a Quaker than with authoritarian socialists? What bull.

[Tkinter1]

How do all of you explain our existence?

[Anonymous]

Evidence Supporting Biological Evolution (http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/evidence.html)

Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics,
and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html)

[Tkinter1]

What started biological evolutioin?

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 9:37 pm on Feb. 13, 2003
How do all of you explain our existence?


If this is the cutting question from a religios spokes person i answer, Just because no-one has proved many of the theorys that go with this debate on the athiest side of the scale does not mean that i am going to resort to creating an even more rediculus conclusion about the existance of a god.

However if you are mearly after the opinion of others then the big bang theory is my best bet.

[Tkinter1]

"However if you are mearly after the opinion of others then the big bang theory is my best bet."

What created the matter to cause the big bang?

[Moskitto]

everything in science is a theory, everything in religion is a theory, science can only be considered better because it has data, not because it's right.

[Moskitto]

Quote: from Mazdak on 9:28 pm on Feb. 13, 2003
ROFL. So These idiots feel more solidarity with a Quaker than with authoritarian socialists? What bull.


I know some quakers, they are some of the most compassionate, tolerant and fair people you could meet.

[Moskitto]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 10:30 pm on Feb. 13, 2003
"However if you are mearly after the opinion of others then the big bang theory is my best bet."

What created the matter to cause the big bang?


What created god?

Infact, this is scary thinking about we don't actually know why the fuck we're here in the first place, oh dear.

I did think of an awnser where god would have come from, but no one liked it :(

[timbaly]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 5:30 pm on Feb. 14, 2003
"However if you are mearly after the opinion of others then the big bang theory is my best bet."

What created the matter to cause the big bang?


Who knows? We can keep asking these questions and we'll get anywhere, it's all speculation. There is no CERTAIN answer.

Now if the Big Bang never happened and God does exisit, what caused his existence? It's just a never ending circle of questions. Something never came from nothing as far as we know. However that would mean that nothing ever started. Ex. what caused big bang? It couldn't just have come out of nowhere, but neither could have the thing that caused it, and the thing that caused that.

[Tkinter1]

"science can only be considered better because it has data"

Better? all science has proved is what does exist, and how some things work. It hasn't proved why everything started, or how everything came together. Science has yet to even remotley answer questions mankind has been pondering for thousands of years.

[Moskitto]

i think god is the conclusion to all evolution (capable of being all powerful, all knowing, all present) and must create life to begin with to allow himself to exist which leaves us here argueing about whether he exists even though we're eventually evolving into him.

well evolution is making species closer to perfection?
man is "created in god's image" so god must have know what life would evolve into him.

but no one likes my idea :( probably because you'd have to accept the other side was right about something.

[Tkinter1]

HAH. So we don't know exactly why we're here, yet we look to science to give us an answer that doesn't remotley answer the question? Or we look to atheism to escape the question?

We look to religion to answer the question. We don't know which religion is true.

We believe that something has to create something else, things just don't appear. Spontanious generation is non-existent. Unfortunately, we only see so much with these eyes. Much of the world around eludes us.


(Edited by Tkinter1 at 11:04 pm on Feb. 13, 2003)

[Tkinter1]

"well evolution is making species closer to perfection?
man is "created in god's image" so god must have know what life would evolve into him."

We've ravaged and destroyed Gods image. It's wiped out our earth one time(or so the story goes) and it swore it would never do it again. God's not one to break promises.

In christianity god gave use the choice to live in it's image. Most of us have accepted other images.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps the Universe is cyclic.

[thursday night]

"So These idiots feel more solidarity with a Quaker than with authoritarian socialists?"

Duh. This is Che-lives, where a staunch Marxist-Leninist is "loved" by liberals, Jesus lovers and worse.

And those of us who are Marxists are locked into a forum called Opposing Ideologies. Does nobody else see the extreme oxymoronic state of all this?

[Moskitto]

That's a bit like my idea DC, but not quite the same.

Tkinker, i do believe in god, when I say scientific theories can be considered "better" i only mean those theories have something to back them up whereas religious theories in general do not (although if you interpret them in certain ways you can get the same things being said.) However, I believe that religion awnsers the question of "Why" we are here because that is not a field which science has addressed.

[Umoja]

How did this suddenly become an attack on Quakers?

Something interesting, in Baha'i, their founder Baha'u'llah called for the acceptance of Science as discovered Truth and Religion as given truth. Interesting stuff.

What's really funny is how this all doesn't break down on political lines, it's like yet another layer to everyone on the forum.

[thursday night]

I don't think you'll find many true Marxist-Leninists who are much of a friend of Quakers, or any other major religion which stands in the way of the worker's state.

Of course, you won't find many Marxist-Leninists here to begin with.

[timbaly]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 5:55 pm on Feb. 14, 2003
We look to religion to answer the question. We don't know which religion is true.

We believe that something has to create something else, things just don't appear. Spontanious generation is non-existent. Unfortunately, we only see so much with these eyes. Much of the world around eludes us.


(Edited by Tkinter1 at 11:04 pm on Feb. 13, 2003)


You say we don't what religion is true, but the god that MIGHT have actually created us may not be worshiped in any religion. And than again, god might not exisit at all. I'm as much of a doubter as possible, without thinking i know for sure.

Now lets say there is a god. What created God?
I do believe that spontaneous generation has happened atleast once, because how else can you explain our existence. It had to start somewhere, doesn't it.

[Ymir]

"And those of us who are Marxists are locked into a forum called Opposing Ideologies. Does nobody else see the extreme oxymoronic state of all this? "

I WAS RECENTLY THINKING EXACTLY THAT!

[thursday night]

Indeed. By the way Ymir, your last avatar was much better.

[Mazdak]

what the hell is that in his new avatar anyway.

Acceptance of quakers. rofl. you must be mad. They stand for a time long gone. They are the lingering remnants of a time when religion ruled the world. They are against progress. Socialists are for progress. You cant mix the two.

[Moskitto]

Quote: from Mazdak on 8:13 pm on Feb. 14, 2003
what the hell is that in his new avatar anyway.

Acceptance of quakers. rofl. you must be mad. They stand for a time long gone. They are the lingering remnants of a time when religion ruled the world. They are against progress. Socialists are for progress. You cant mix the two.

Mazdak, you're an allright guy, but i'm afraid you don't know much about christian denominations.

They're nothing like puritans, or other religious groups who stand a long time ago, they were executed by the quakers because they were so radical, quakers oppose the war in Iraq, quakers support an interperative approach towards religion, quakers accept non-christians into their church, quakers support jubilee 2000 and carnival against capitalism, quakers have no clergy, quakers stand against human rights abuses in other countries, quakers do all the work in their church as a commune, quakers ran alms houses, quakers do not pay large sums of money to have their buildings made in 14th century style.

churches that stand a long time ago are your baptists (the one in town at least), puritans (this religion is totalitarian in nature), hardline calvanists, and hardline roman catholics.

your more liberal churches are your Armenian churches and Quakers.

[Anonymous]

I used to be a "born-again" southern baptist. And you all know how that is...

[Mazdak]

what you dont understand is it is nonetheless a church. It doesnt matter what it stands for or how tolerant it seems it will not be this way permanently and should be viewed as all other religions.

[thursday night]

I don't care if a church is liberal or not, but the fact is it is a church of religion. And because I hate religion so I will never tolerate it.

[Moskitto]

ok, i understand what your saying,

I disagree with your view because i think stuff is evil because of what it does not because it is something, but that's ok.

p.s. read the post i'm writing in totalitarian ideologies about puritans.

[Moskitto]

Quote: from thursday night on 9:32 pm on Feb. 14, 2003
I don't care if a church is liberal or not, but the fact is it is a church of religion. And because I hate religion so I will never tolerate it.


I hate bananas and i don't think they should be grown, even though they're saving millions of people in Africa.

[Umoja]

Quakers have meeting houses, not churches, but whatever, hate whatever you want.

[thursday night]

Sounds good.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I agree that all religions are equaly bad since we can't differentiate one from the other since each one uses its own theory to justify it's actions and its theories can't be proven. Therefore, its actions cannot be said to be right or wrong, simply oppressive and destructive.
Though, I don't agree with imposing our atheism on others, that would be a very authoritarian measure and would cause some to feel restricted and oppressed. But I believe that once Communism is enstated, religion will quickly decline without the need for suppression of the church.

[Tkinter1]

"religion will quickly decline without the need for suppression of the church."

Why would that happen?

[redstar2000]

Excellent question, Tkinter1.

Marx and Engels, observing the early decline of religious influence under youthful capitalism, thought this process would continue more or less indefinitely (kind of "un-Marxist" of them, in a way). After the proletarian revolution, religion would just "wither away."

It didn't turn out that way in the 20th century...though as I understand it, the churches in Western Europe are mostly empty, religion has made a huge comeback in the United States. The "separation of church & state" is now more or less in tatters and "God only knows" how much worse it's going to get here. Some of us may yet live long enough to actually see someone burned for "witchcraft" or "heresy" right here in the good old U.S.A.(!)

Does this seem extreme? The U.S. Government already has given a grant to a Missouri school system to "fight Goth culture." (not a joke.)

The ten-minute bus ride to my local supermarket features three huge "United in Prayer" banners that date from 9/11. And this in a working class neighborhood.

So, "stalinist" or not, I am not tolerant of these bastards and I think they need to be fought...hard!

:angry:

[Anonymous]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 7:57 am on Feb. 15, 2003

It didn't turn out that way in the 20th century...though as I understand it, the churches in Western Europe are mostly empty, religion has made a huge comeback in the United States. The "separation of church & state" is now more or less in tatters and "God only knows" how much worse it's going to get here. Some of us may yet live long enough to actually see someone burned for "witchcraft" or "heresy" right here in the good old U.S.A.(!)


Are you kidding? They've taken the ten commandments out of the courthouses, eliminated "God" from the pledge of allegiance, and practicaly outlawed prayer in schools. Not that I have too much of a problem with this, it just seems as though this country has actually become far less religious in the past forty years.

[Umoja]

It's rather perspective oriented. Some say it's on the decline and others say it's on the rise, but to my understanding, it's a Christian prophecy that religion would wither away regardless.

[redstar2000]

"They've taken the ten commandments out of the courthouse"

They'll be putting them back shortly.

"they've eliminated God from the pledge of alligiance"

No, that's a court decision from one district...it's on appeal and will certainly be overturned.

"they've practically outlawed prayer in [public] schools"

The strategy of the Bush administration is to abolish public schools and replace them with private religious schools funded by taxpayers. Another decade or two, and the only public schools left will be in upper-middle class suburbs...if there.

One could cite hundreds of examples...but the picture is clear. "God" is on the march in America...if you have the resources and the opportunity, it's a good time to leave.

:cool:

[Tkinter1]

"One could cite hundreds of examples...but the picture is clear. "God" is on the march in America...if you have the resources and the opportunity, it's a good time to leave."

Wow.....

[redstar2000]

Please see the thread I started in Theory: "Stations of the Boss."

:cool:

[Anonymous]

An isolated incident, and the guy was obviously insane.

[ID2002]

I still read a lot about Marx, and still retain my Buddhist practise. I am Socialist through and through. I will be working in Cuba in August...and plan on meeting Fidel and his officials as a part of Canada-Cuba Solidarity (Che- work experience) program.

LONG LIVE SOCIALISM!

[RedCeltic]

I agree with RedStar in his last post 100%!!

"No Prayer in public School" isn't a victory when you consider that George Dubya Bush is going to simply get rid of Public schools and replace them with Religious ones.

He is also funding Churches with federal money.

See how much money you would get if you wanted to build a Communist Party HQ in an American City and as part of the deal you decide to use part of the space as a community center.

Would you get federal money??

[jon doe]

I consider my self taoist, but only in a philosophical rater than relegious way. I feel that taoism and anarchism are very similar in lots of ways.

[Tkinter1]

"The strategy of the Bush administration is to abolish public schools and replace them with private religious schools funded by taxpayers. Another decade or two, and the only public schools left will be in upper-middle class suburbs...if there."


Bush won't even be in office much longer big guy. These types of changes take time and support that bush doesn't have. Are you seriously worried about this, or are you just saying it??

[Goldfinger]

that hand in your avatar is scaring me.

[redstar2000]

Tkinter1, I did say "in a decade or two."

You seem to think that George W. Bush is just some isolated nutball or that the Bush regime is just a group of nutballs that will lose in 2004.

I hope you're right...but I think you're wrong.

Bush represents a very significant trend in American public opinion...don't kid yourself that it is not possible. While it's always difficult to generalize accurately, I think what we're getting in America is a drift and perhaps soon to become a march into the realm of clerical fascism...a modern version of Mussolini's Italy.

Modern fascism doesn't require all the regalia that we associate with the 3rd Reich or Italy--though we do have our versions of the Nurenberg rallies...such as the half-time show at the superbowl.

What is important to modern fascism is: (1) Effective governmental control of all political activity; (2) Effective freedom for large corporations to do as they please; (3) The institution in law of "traditional" American (religious) "values"; (4)Freedom of the government-corporate partnership to engage in unlimited political-economic-military aggression abroad; and so on.

This is a popular agenda in the United States...supported in part or in whole by upwards of 80 per cent of the population! It won't go away when Bush leaves office in January 2009...:o

Of course, significant resistance to U.S. imperialism from other countries can drastically modify the scenario I've just offered. Unsuccessful imperialism sometimes produces sufficient domestic outrage as to change the political landscape drastically.

Right now, it looks pretty grim.

:cool:

[Tkinter1]

When we slip into modern fascism, we'll all sigh and say, man redstar was right. This is just way to far-fetched to argue.

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 2:08 am on Feb. 17, 2003)