Stalinism and Trotskyism

[trivas7]

According to Ted Grant the original difference between Stalinism and Trotskyism had nothing to do with the theory of Permanent Revolution. The original difference arose over the demands of the Left Opposition, as they were called and - in which demands the Left Opposition had the full support of Lenin - for a restoration of workers' democracy in the Soviet Union on the lines of the following conditions establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat:

The first condition, for the rule of the working class, according to Lenin, is the existence of soviets, these committees with the right of election and recall. The second condition that Lenin laid down for the rule of the working class was that no official was to receive a wage higher than that of a skilled worker. The third condition was that there was to be no standing army, but an armed people. The fourth condition was that there be no permanent bureaucracy: in the words of Lenin himself, 'every cook should be able to be Prime Minister.'

http://www.tedgrant.org/archive/grant/1966/clifford.htm

[Yehuda Stern]

Did you have a point, or are you just another Grant Bot trolling around this forum?

[Aurelia]

The Left Opposition was the result of the urban petite-bourgeois' unhappiness with the dictatorship of the proletariat. The real decision isn't between 'Stalinism' and Trotskite-ism, it is between Leninism or Trotskyism. (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/trotskyism.htm)

[OI OI OI]

Haha
I wont bother with this debate but I want people to read Leninism or Trotskyism by Stalin and then The Revolution Betrayed by Trotsky.
Then you will laugh with the Childish arguments by Stalin and see who makes more sense!

[Winter]

Here's some pro-Stalin literature I came across: http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/stalin.html

It's from MIM, so a lot of you may just dismiss it because of that but it's worth a look.

[trivas7]

From the source you refer to:


Yes, he killed many people, too many even according to himself. However, all his repression combined was small compared with the lives he saved through the rapid and revolutionary transformation of society that he carried out.

Is this typical of the kind of moral calculus Stalinists engage in that attempts to justify a murderous reign?

[Lost In Translation]

Enough said comrade:thumbup1:
Wait a minute, when you first joined, I thought you said it was important for leftists to work together (can't be bothered with a quote atm).

WHAT HAPPENED??!! :crying::crying::crying:

[OI OI OI]

Oh quit it, Trotsky failed at life, everyone in the USSR realized the absolute fraud and charlatan anti-Marxist he was, and then he fled after being butthurt to all his bourgeois friends in America. That says alot.

I wont respond to this simply because its bullshit.
I would reccomend that you read the other side though, Lenin and Trotsky , what they really stood for , by Alan Woods and Ted Grant would make a good starter.

Now arguing with people who have no grasp of history and know nothing whatsoever when it comes to Marxist theory and resort to meaningless slanders would be a big waste of time that I cannot afford. I ve refuted "arguments" like this a thousant times in the past...

[trivas7]

I wont respond to this simply because its bullshit. I would reccomend that you read the other side though, Lenin and Trotsky , what they really stood for , by Alan Woods and Ted Grant would make a good starter.

Thanks comrade, I'll look into it.

[Lost In Translation]

Kromando, when you move on to your next sockpuppet keep in mind that terms like "butthurt" are recognized as homophobic and aren't tolerated here. Not that you care of course...
Who's Kromando? Is he/she a Marsella type poster?

[Bilan]

Haha
I wont bother with this debate but I want people to read Leninism or Trotskyism by Stalin and then The Revolution Betrayed by Trotsky.
Then you will laugh with the Childish arguments by Stalin and see who makes more sense!

What, that one opportunistically attacked the state for implementing measures he supported, and one used the other as a scape goat?

[OI OI OI]

What, that one opportunistically attacked the state for implementing measures he supported, and one used the other as a scape goat?

Yes because Trotsky like Lenin supported the bureaucratic degeneration of the USSR , the lack of workers democracy and the abandoning of internationalism .....
C'mon let's be serious.
I can understand that you are an anarchist and you have every reason to criticize Marxists and Marxism just like we have every reason to criticize anarchism and anarchists.

But to say that Trotsky is the same as Stalin and that the Left-opposition supported Stalinist measures is going too far .

It is forgetting all the fights of the left-opposition in the name of workers democracy,internationalism and genuine socialism and their ultimate sacrifice which was dieing in the gulags or in Trotsky's case getting an ice-pick to your head.

It's one thing criticizing Marxism-Leninism and another thing of confusing Stalinism with Marxism-Leninism.
Let's be serious

[Random Precision]

Who's Kromando? Is he/she a Marsella type poster?

Sort of. Just a weirdo who came on here pretending to be a Hoxhaist and foaming at the mouth about "trotskidiots" and "anarkiddies" every post, the goal being to make Stalinists look as bad as possible I'm guessing. He was restricted for who knows what a couple months ago, and about once every week he'll have a new sockpuppet. Aurelia was his latest incarnation.

[Devrim]

Yes because Trotsky like Lenin supported the bureaucratic degeneration of the USSR , the lack of workers democracy and the abandoning of internationalism .....
C'mon let's be serious.

'Bureaucratic degeneration' is a bit of an abstract concept, but if you mean by it one man management, the destruction of soviet democracy, and the destruction of intra-party democracy, yes they were all things supported by Lenin, and Trotsky.

As for the lack of workers' democracy, when do you think that the first Soviet was dissolved by decree? (answer at the bottom of the post*) And yes again Lenin and Trotsky supported it.

As for the abandoning of internationalism take a look through the details of the 'Treaty of Rapallo'. As a part of this treaty the German state, which let's remember at the time was using military force against the revolution, had parts of its army trained in the Soviet Union. It was signed in 1922. Let's guess who was in charge then.

So yes, all three points. I think that they are serious.

Devrim

*The first soviet to be abolished by decree was on November 9th 1917.

[OI OI OI]

'Bureaucratic degeneration' is a bit of an abstract concept, but if you mean by it one man management, the destruction of soviet democracy, and the destruction of intra-party democracy, yes they were all things supported by Lenin, and Trotsky.

In what way? I strongly disagree with that statement you made .


s for the lack of workers' democracy, when do you think that the first Soviet was dissolved by decree? (answer at the bottom of the post*) And yes again Lenin and Trotsky supported it.


So there were no Soviets after 1917:rolleyes:? Ha!


As for the abandoning of internationalism take a look through the details of the 'Treaty of Rapallo'. As a part of this treaty the German state, which let's remember at the time was using military force against the revolution, had parts of its army trained in the Soviet Union. It was signed in 1922. Let's guess who was in charge then.

Once again the Treaty of Rapallo comes into the conversation!!!
I am not surprised.
But you have to see the context of the Treaty of Rapallo before you judge it as an act of abandoning Internationalism.

The KPD had been defeated , Rosa Luxempurg had died in the hands of the SPD and the revolution in Germany had been crushed by the reaction. The USSR after defeating the whites and the imperialists as well as the inner reaction (Kronstadt!) were in a dire position.
In a position of complete lack of infastructure , of the immediate threat of imperialist reaction, of complete backwardness and isolation.
A treaty with Germany in order to escape this isolation was more than necessary.
It was not an act of abandoning internationalism but a last act in order for the workers state to survive.
You wil say that this is close to the stalinist reasoning of Socialism in One country but this is completely false, as it is not in any way.
The Revolution in Germany was not undermined it was supported. But it failed due to mainy reasons.
Should the Soviet Union stay isolated in order not to be accused of having relations with a capitalist country?



PS: Since its 2 in the morning and I have work in 8 hours i will go to sleep now.


To be Continued.......................:lol:

[Devrim]

In what way? I strongly disagree with that statement you made .

This one: 'one man management, the destruction of soviet democracy, and the destruction of intra-party democracy, yes they were all things supported by Lenin, and Trotsky.'

One man management was supported by both Lenin and Trotsky as were the suppression of Soviet and intra-party democracy. Which one would you like examples of?


So there were no Soviets after 1917http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif? Ha!

Read what I wrote again. It said the first Soviet, not every Soviet.

As for Germany, Soviet policy was a disaster there. Basically in an effort to build a 'mass' party they supported all sort of social-democrats against communists.

But on the actual point, I fail to see how the revolution in Germany, (and I think the revolutionary period lasted until 1923) was helped by the Soviets training and arming German troops.

Devrim

[Black Sheep]

Has anyone read "another look at at stalin" by Ludo Martens? (not sure about the spelling)
the stuff it says about Trotsky make me pity him

[Winter]

Has anyone read "another look at at stalin" by Ludo Martens? (not sure about the spelling)
the stuff it says about Trotsky make me pity him


I'm really intending to. Here's the link to the book if anyone is interested: http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html

[Trystan]

the goal being to make Stalinists look as bad as possible I'm guessing.

Not much of a challenge :lol:

[Dros]

Haha
I wont bother with this debate but I want people to read Leninism or Trotskyism by Stalin and then The Revolution Betrayed by Trotsky.
Then you will laugh with the Childish arguments by Stalin and see who makes more sense!

:lol::lol::lol:

I did do exactly that and ended up laughing at Trotsky!

Trivas: When did you become a Trot?