A message for revlefters.

[OI OI OI]

This is a message to all revlefters who are not in any party/organization.

So I took the initiative to write this message after seeing this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/you-any-party-t84238/index.html) rather disgusting result in a poll I made , whether users here are active in an organization or not. Of course I kind of had an idea on what the results would be seeing the low political level of certain users.

In a revolutionary left website 40% of the users are not active in real life! What a shame!

I want you all here to understand this very clearly. If you are not organized in any organization you will not be able to give anything to the common cause, the promotion of a revolutionary change of society. You will simply be just another teenage lefty with romantic dreams about the future debating vague topics on a site with no real connection to the workers movement and then you will simply be demoralized because you will think(in your ignorance) that revolution is utopian, the revolution will never come etc. So just like other teenage revolutionaries you will turn out to be what you (theoreticaly always) demolished. A mindless reformist or an ignorant liberal .

So apart from the fact that a big chunk of the users here are useless in the movement as only being couch leftists and very isolated from the workers movement , you also (by not participating in the movemnt in real life) most likely will become reformists or stupid liberals.

This should be regarded as a serious warning to all the lefty kiddos on the site .

I can understand that you might live in Antartica and not have contact with other leftists but if you are communists that live in any other place except from Antartica or a redneck village, it is a huge "crime" against the ideas of socialism to not participate in any organization.

JOIN A PARTY , NOW!!!

[Die Neue Zeit]

1) I'm not a teenager.
2) I'm not YET active.
3) My "theory nuttiness" should be justifiable within these twelve months or so, as I have written from the perspective of an "outsider." My work serves as the basis for making a controlled dive from high above into the pool.
4) Such work is also the basis for a new organization. :)

[Faux Real]

Let some of these teenagers finish their schooling before you lambaste them with all the patronising. Jeez.

JOIN A PARTY , NOW!!!After having joined one for a few good months, no thanks.

[F9]

i think you misunderstand it a bit.There are plenty of reasons preventing someone to be member of an organization,but that doesnt make him inactive or lefty kiddo.For me example i am not in any organization for the simply reason that there isnt one,i barely talked to fellow Anarchists some times!But not been in an organization that doesnt make me inactive,although yes there are disadvantages and less action etc.Being active doesnt "close" inside organizations.you know what i mean.
Moreover there might be some personal problems or healt difficulties with a person so that not be a member of an organization isnt a "crime" lets get serious.
But yes joining organizations is crucial and very important and everyone with the ability SHOULD join.
ohh and no thanks i am not entering a party in a million years!;)
JOIN AN ORGANIZATION,NOW!!!! is the correct:)

Fuserg9:star:

[Sam_b]

Oy! Some of us 'teenage lefty' and 'lefty kiddos' types are organised and have a party thanks. No need to be so condescending towards towards young people simply because of being older and feel you need to have a crusade to organise the kids, yo.

[Comrade B]

I have been trying to organize a few of my leftist friends recently, but usually we cant get much more to happen than a small flag theft and burning, stealing small items from walmart relentlessly, and an attempt to drive a creationist teacher nuts.
I live in a small redneck town, and I cannot understand how people from cities can resist joining these groups

[OI OI OI]

Let some of these teenagers finish their schooling before you lambaste them with all the patronising. Jeez

I was in high - school when I joined my first organization. I think that people that go to school can afford being active in a party.


After having joined one for a few good months, no thanks.

Well if you have joined good for you! This message is only for those who are unorganized . For the e-revolutionaries, the teenage commies and the lifestylists .
And it should not be regarded as an insult but as advice.....


Oy! Some of us 'teenage lefty' and 'lefty kiddos' types are organised and have a party thanks.
Then I will repeat it what I wrote is not for you. I never said that all of revleft is teenage lefty but a 40% according to the poll....



No need to be so condescending towards towards young people simply because of being older and feel you need to have a crusade to organise the kids, yo.

"Yo" I am only 18.... I am not old.



I have been trying to organize a few of my leftist friends recently, but usually we cant get much more to happen than a small flag theft and burning, stealing small items from walmart relentlessly, and an attempt to drive a creationist teacher nuts.

Haaha this is really funny. But of course it is not a revolutionary organization what you are trying to build. Stealing from Wal-Mart is not a revolutionary action. If you want any aid on how to set up a real group PM me.


I live in a small redneck town, and I cannot understand how people from cities can resist joining these groups

That's hat I am wondering also!!!!!!


i think you misunderstand it a bit.There are plenty of reasons preventing someone to be member of an organization,but that doesnt make him inactive or lefty kiddo
I can see no reason for not joining the organization you agree with politicaly. If it does not exist in your area, then create it just like a comrade of mine created a branch of the IMt in a city of Canada where there was no IMT. It is hard work but well worth it.



But not been in an organization that doesnt make me inactive,although yes there are disadvantages and less action etc.Being active doesnt "close" inside organizations.you know what i mean.

I know what you mean. But its only so much(really nothing) that you can achieve on your own. Except if you are superman .


Moreover there might be some personal problems or healt difficulties with a person so that not be a member of an organization isnt a "crime" lets get serious.

No if you are in a hospital bed you should get up immediately and join an organization!
C'mon lets get serious. Of course if you have health problems that dont allow you to be active you should not try to be active!
And the word crime is used metaphoricaly!


But yes joining organizations is crucial and very important and everyone with the ability SHOULD join.
ohh and no thanks i am not entering a party in a million years!http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/wink.gif
JOIN AN ORGANIZATION,NOW!!!! is the correcthttp://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_smile.gif

However you put it I agree. Get organized!!!

[Lost In Translation]

I could be considered a "couch leftist" by your definition. Studies come first for me, as i have a rigorous schedule, so everything else takes a back seat. Don't judge me simply because I value my studies and my family more than other of life's offerings.

[bcbm]

Just because I'm not part of any official organization doesn't mean I'm not doing anything. Piss off.

[OI OI OI]

Wow I see offensive replies.
My original post is not an insult but a recomendation...

[Lost In Translation]

Wow I see offensive replies.
My original post is not an insult but a recomendation...
Sorry if I came across as pissed off.

I do see myself joining an organization.

But we have to go according to our own pace, not with the "get off the couch, you lazy bastard" attitude as shown in the OP.

[bcbm]

Wow I see offensive replies.
My original post is not an insult but a recomendation...

Yeah, weird that people would get riled up by some random fucker telling them that unless they join an organization, they're worthless, lazy, teenaged, romantic dreaming couch potatoes.

And here's a fun thought- joining an organization doesn't automatically bring you "closer to the workers movement" or make you of any value to said movement. Most left organizations are pathetic bullshit that isn't achieving squat. Why join that? Its entirely possible to be effective without being part of an official organization.

[Decolonize The Left]

Wow I see offensive replies.
My original post is not an insult but a recomendation...

Really? What does this sound like to you (all bold added)?


So just like other teenage revolutionaries you will turn out to be what you (theoreticaly always) demolished. A mindless reformist or an ignorant liberal .


So apart from the fact that a big chunk of the users here are useless in the movement as only being couch leftists and very isolated from the workers movement , you also (by not participating in the movemnt in real life) most likely will become reformists or stupid liberals.


This should be regarded as a serious warning to all the lefty kiddos on the site .


I can understand that you might live in Antartica and not have contact with other leftists but if you are communists that live in any other place except from Antartica or a redneck village, it is a huge "crime" against the ideas of socialism to not participate in any organization.

Sounds a little offensive doesn't it? So before you try and back track and say "hey man, I was just giving a recommendation," give some thought to what you just made public. It helps to think before you write patronizing trash and attempt to call it help.

- August

[Yehuda Stern]

Boy, IMTer, you people sure are a hoot. Does Alan Woods teach you to give these pep talks, or did you come up with this brilliant way to recruit all on your own?

(If you're not an IMTer, I'm sorry. Then again, if you are, I'm even more sorry for you)

[KC]

2) I'm not YET active.

Why not?


3) My "theory nuttiness" should be justifiable within these twelve months or so, as I have written from the perspective of an "outsider." My work serves as the basis for making a controlled dive from high above into the pool.

So when are you planning on getting involved and on what basis? How can you even write a work on organizing if you've never even organized?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Why not?

So when are you planning on getting involved and on what basis? How can you even write a work on organizing if you've never even organized?

Ever heard of the disillusioned would-be-activist? :( Besides, new approaches are needed in die neue zeit. ;)

[Niccolò Rossi]

OI, I take your post as a complete and utter insult. I, like many others on the site, am not as of yet organised as a member of any party, union etc., and like most others how aren't organised realise the need to do so.

Now when you waltz on in here and want to have a go at us, calling us "couch-leftists" doomed to become nothing more than liberals you deserve a good punch in the face. Who the fuck are you to be condemning us. Unlike you wish to think those of us who aren't organised are in such a position for various reasons which you have generalised as us all being utopian teenagers, not taking into consideration the circumstances of many of us are in.

Those of us who aren't organised don't have to listen to this kind of shit. Unless you've got something worthwhile to say, you can take your self and your petty generalisations "out into the real world" and away from us "kiddos" hidden away from sunlight in our parents garage's :rolleyes:

[Devrim]

I agree with Zeitgeist's view. I also think that people should think before they join a political organisation. This whole thing of ' JOIN A PARTY , NOW!!!' is absurd.

For the record I am not a teenager, I am in my forties, and I am a member of a political organisation.

Devrim

[communard resolution]

I think you guys are being too harsh with the OP. He only meant to give people a friendly kick in the ass, don't take it so personally.

As for 'people should think before they join an organization', I partly agree. But once you've very broadly determined what your politics are, it won't hurt to join any group that seems compatible. If they turn out useless for whatever reason, you can still leave them and join another group later. It will not be a waste of your time in any case as you'll probably learn some valuable things along the way. At the very least you'll find out what is wrong with the group and how not to do it.

[Revulero]

Ive never been a part of any organization because im isolated in a "redneck village", but that doesnt mean im not active at all and ive made many attempts to start an organization but every person i know dont give a shit and the ones who do are mostly teens who are future liberals anarchist wannabes who think since im a marxist im in love with stalin and that im against freedom so they refuse to talk politics or workers issues with me. Shoot if i could find any organization around my area i'd join even if it was maoist or trotskyist.

[Holden Caulfield]

i was scared so i ran out and joined the Tory Party, is this okay?

[Incendiarism]

Being a revolutionary is too hard. I have yet to buy my combat boots or fidel cap, just give me some time!

[communard resolution]

i was scared so i ran out and joined the Tory Party, is this okay?

Sure. There's always a use for spies and saboteurs.

[Revulero]

Im just wondering but how did you get the statistics that 40% of revlefters are active.

[Sendo]

i would have joined a nascent IWW chapter in May had I not moved 10,000 miles to start my teaching job. I have joined the teachers' "union" for expats in Korea, but it's already under watch (not even a union per se yet, just an "association") and I don't think I'll hear anything back for a while. I talk about stuff with other people, but it's too early for me to be eligible for anything here. And unless you're in Seoul or speak Korean fluently it's a little hard to become active politically. The other annoying thing is that I can only do teaching here. No time or eligibility for any other type of labor experience over here.

This is just another learning experience for me, much like how warehouse work was when I did that one summer.

Sometimes, OIOIOI, there isn't some perfect, or even decent party to enlist in. Joining the workforce and sneaking propaganda into my high school curriculum has to count for something.

[Pogue]

I've done activism, like demonstrations and stuff, helping clear up afterwards etc, and am involved in the unions. Theres no appeal for me to join a 'revolutionary' group because they don't do much, because they're too small and dividied and I don't want to spend my time debating pointless theoretical stuff. They're work does not interest me at this present time.

[Devrim]

What are your politics Sendo? We have contacts with some Korean political groups.

Devrim

[Colonello Buendia]

I'm 15, I've organised a deomnstration, joined the IWW and have been active for months. not all teenage lefties are inactive chekiddies. I'm doing as much as I can to help. so OI OI OI, before you say something like you said in the OP don't be so hasty with the generalisations

[dirtycommiebastard]

I agree with some of the criticisms presented here about the OP, but I'm quite sure he did not mean to be insulting.

Of course, everyone's situation is unique, and in some cases, joining a party or organization would be the LEAST effective thing to do.

The general idea of the OP, in my opinion, was to give 'kick in the ass' to those who are REALLY e-revolutionaries and make excuses for themselves to not get organized or do something.

As for anyone else who has obstacles in their way, it would be absurd to believe the OP meant to insult any of you.

But for those of you who just need to get you shit together, do it!

[Red October]

I'm a teenager and have been active for about 2 years. And shoot me if I ever join a party.

[OI OI OI]

I agree with some of the criticisms presented here about the OP, but I'm quite sure he did not mean to be insulting.

Of course, everyone situation is unique, and in some cases, joining a party or organization would be the LEAST effective thing to do.

The general idea of the OP, in my opinion, was to give 'kick in the ass' to those who are REALLY e-revolutionaries and make excuses for themselves to not get organized or do something.

As for anyone else who has obstacles in their way, it would be absurd to believe the OP meant to insult any of you.

But for those of you who just need to get you shit together, do it!


Thank you!

Someone who really understands what I was trying to do!

[KurtFF8]

i think you misunderstand it a bit.There are plenty of reasons preventing someone to be member of an organization,but that doesnt make him inactive or lefty kiddo.For me example i am not in any organization for the simply reason that there isnt one,i barely talked to fellow Anarchists some times!But not been in an organization that doesnt make me inactive,although yes there are disadvantages and less action etc.Being active doesnt "close" inside organizations.you know what i mean.
Moreover there might be some personal problems or healt difficulties with a person so that not be a member of an organization isnt a "crime" lets get serious.
But yes joining organizations is crucial and very important and everyone with the ability SHOULD join.
ohh and no thanks i am not entering a party in a million years!;)
JOIN AN ORGANIZATION,NOW!!!! is the correct:)

Fuserg9:star:

But the alternative to not working with an organization and not even talking with others of your political leanings is basically complacency. If you believe in revolutionary ideals and believe that those ideals ought to lead to some action yet sit around and don't make an effort to put those ideas into practice (which requires some form of organization at a minimum, especially granted the collectivism that leftists posit) then there ought to be some of your free time devoted to making those theories put into reality.

Whether you're a Marxist or not (yet still a leftist), his view about philosophers needing to change the world instead of interpret it applies quite relevantly to this topic I think.

[Dr Mindbender]

I can understand that you might live in Antartica and not have contact with other leftists but if you are communists that live in any other place except from Antartica or a redneck village, it is a huge "crime" against the ideas of socialism to not participate in any organization.


does sectarian loyalist orange bigot town fall under the same category as redneck village?

:(

I've made recent contact with a union though so at least i'm being a bit more pro-active in the 'active' side of things.

[Sam_b]

"Yo" I am only 18.... I am not old.

Younger than me...oh the irony :laugh:

I withdraw my statement ;)

[Mindtoaster]

Thanks for this Oi!

I'm gonna run out right now and join the CPUSA or the RCP so I won't be a lazy, ignorant liberal anymore!

... Oh wait :(

[F9]

But the alternative to not working with an organization and not even talking with others of your political leanings is basically complacency. If you believe in revolutionary ideals and believe that those ideals ought to lead to some action yet sit around and don't make an effort to put those ideas into practice (which requires some form of organization at a minimum, especially granted the collectivism that leftists posit) then there ought to be some of your free time devoted to making those theories put into reality.

Its not that i dont want to join an organization,is that there isnt one.And its not that i dont want to talk with comrades,its that we are small number and scattered all over the country,i cant get to the other side of the country walking.There are numbers of problems that you seem not to understand because simply you have no idea whats going on down here.And if you had readen my post correctly then you would understand that i may not being a member of an org but that doesnt mean that i do not try for my idea.And what you mean putting our ideas in practise?should i built Anarchism on my own and some other members?that no one makes it!


Whether you're a Marxist or not (yet still a leftist), his view about philosophers needing to change the world instead of interpret it applies quite relevantly to this topic I think.

I am not.who told about philosophers?i can say to you surely that i am not one!:lol:

Fuserg9:star:

[OI OI OI]

I'm gonna run out right now and join the CPUSA or the RCP so I won't be a lazy, ignorant liberal anymore!

haha
I never said that by not being in a party you are a liberal.
But inactivity can bring all those traits. I saw this on me and I am sure others have felt it.

Now everyone stop taking my words out of context.
This was only a kick in the butt to make you aware of your lack of action.
It was no insult or anything.
Marx said that a lot of philosophers try to describe the world but only Marxists try to change it.
Well if you are not active you lose a big part of your marxist conciousness :rolleyes:

[OI OI OI]

should i built Anarchism on my own and some other members?that no one makes it!

well you can start small with meetings and discussion groups and then become bigger.
The number is not the problem. In Venezuela there was no IMT 6 years ago.
Now there is with hundreds of members and it all started from 1-2 people.
In montreal we see the same trend.
An organization of 3 became an organization of almost 20 in one year!
I am sure other parties can have the same gains if they have good ideas and tactics.

[F9]

well you can start small with meetings and discussion groups and then become bigger.
The number is not the problem. In Venezuela there was no IMT 6 years ago.
Now there is with hundreds of members and it all started from 1-2 people.
In montreal we see the same trend.
An organization of 3 became an organization of almost 20 in one year!
I am sure other parties can have the same gains if they have good ideas and tactics.

either i write wrong,either you do not understand completely what i am saying.The one you quote has nothing to do,it was just a point that kurtFF8 set and it didnt stand logically.For the others just follow my former replys.

Fuserg9:star:

[Saorsa]

I don't want to spend my time debating pointless theoretical stuff

Judging by you're metaphysical, liberal and thoroughly devoid of class analysis posts in this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-t83648/index.html), I think it's obvious that you desperately need to get clud up about "theoretical stuff". Without theory we are groping in the dark, and you're obviously banging you're shins on the furniture all over the place.

I think most people here are misinterpreting what Oi Oi Oi was trying to say. I'm 16, and I've been active in the Workers Party (http://www.revleft.com/vb/www.workersparty.org.nz) since I was 15. Only a bit under two hours ago I was on a megaphone leading chants at a roughly 100-150 strong protest against the arrest of legalise cannabis activists on campus by plainclothes pigs. I'm on the Editorial Board of the WP's paper, I've written a lot of articles for it, and I'm active in the National Distribution Union.

I'm not just trying to blow my own trumpet here - my point is that just because you're young and have a lot of study and work to do (which I do, seeing as how I plan on going to Uni a year early next year) doesn't mean you can't also get active in revolutionary politics.

A party is like an anchor - it keeps you firmly docked in revolutionary socialist waters, and prevents you from drifting off into the petty-bourgeois liberal sea. If you are not an active member of an organisation, you run the risk of getting disillusioned with you're ideas, and feeling isolated, like there's no hope for you're cause.

Being active in a Party will help train you up in revolutionary socialist theory, and will ensure that you're in frequent contact with people who feelt he same way as you. It will allow you to channel and focus you're energies into productive work that produces real results - the whole point of an organisation is so you achieve more with you're time and effort than you could individually.

If there is a revolutionary organisation in your area, be it anarchist, Trotskyist, Hoxhaist, Maoist, or non-sectarian, you have no excuses for not getting active in it. There are people in the WP who are single mothers on a low income and irregular hours, with a big student loan debt to pay off and a PhD to finish writing, but despite all this they still contribute a hell of a lot of their time, effort and even money to the organisation and our struggle. Trying to get you're homework in on time doesn't compare to that.

[Devrim]

just because you're young and have a lot of study and work to do

Strangely enough, I think that you will find as you get older that it doesn't really compare with having a full time job, and a family. In fact you might find that it was one of the easiest most relaxing periods of you life.

Devrim

[Saorsa]

^ Um, there are roughly the same number of people in the Workers Party with "a full time job, and a family" (many of them in low paid, casualised jobs) as there are students and high school students.

Of course I don't think that my life is tough right now, and I certainly don't think it's tougher than full time workers with a family to support! But my post was largely in reply to GlobalCommie94's statement that he shouldn't be labelled an armchair leftist for putting his studies and his family beofre "life's other offerings". I manage to get pretty good grades and play an active role in my party and socialist politics in my town, so why can't others my age do the same? I have a job too, so that's not an excuse (unless you're working very frequently).

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Strangely enough, I think that you will find as you get older that it doesn't really compare with having a full time job, and a family. In fact you might find that it was one of the easiest most relaxing periods of you life.

Devrim

Eh Uni is relatively easy going, though I'm still working 15-25 hours a week, plus studies, plus political activities. I suspect High school is more stressful than full time work since I worked, went to class for 7 hours a day, and had your typical helping of adolescent bullshit. If you work a full time job of 40 hours a week, plus 15-20 for domestic crap, its about the same or less. If you plan your kids out right, a family really shouldn't be too difficult. Especially if you have experience raising kids, which will come in very handy.

[Lost In Translation]

^ Um, there are roughly the same number of people in the Workers Party with "a full time job, and a family" (many of them in low paid, casualised jobs) as there are students and high school students.

Of course I don't think that my life is tough right now, and I certainly don't think it's tougher than full time workers with a family to support! But my post was largely in reply to GlobalCommie94's statement that he shouldn't be labelled an armchair leftist for putting his studies and his family beofre "life's other offerings". I manage to get pretty good grades and play an active role in my party and socialist politics in my town, so why can't others my age do the same? I have a job too, so that's not an excuse (unless you're working very frequently).
You don't understand the situation I'm in. My studies require all my energy and devotion. It is not regular high school. For me, it has come to the point where everything has taken a backseat to school and other studies. Don't judge me. You don't know me well enough to do so.

[Devrim]

^ Um, there are roughly the same number of people in the Workers Party with "a full time job, and a family" (many of them in low paid, casualised jobs) as there are students and high school students.

I didn't imply that there weren't members with jobs. It just amuses me a little when students go on about how hard life is.


Of course I don't think that my life is tough right now, and I certainly don't think it's tougher than full time workers with a family to support!

At least you realise.


I suspect High school is more stressful than full time work since I worked, went to class for 7 hours a day,

I don't know about high school. I didn't go. At that age I was working a six day week in a factory. I imagine it was more stressful.

Devrim

[chimx]

Strangely enough, I think that you will find as you get older that it doesn't really compare with having a full time job, and a family. In fact you might find that it was one of the easiest most relaxing periods of you life.

No kidding! Speaking as someone that has done both, school is cake. These days, I'm so wiped out after a day of work, I rarely have the energy to even pick up a book. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

I don't know about high school. I didn't go. At that age I was working a six day week in a factory. I imagine it was more stressful.

Devrim

Meaning you worked 48 hours a week. Unless you were working ten hours a day? In which case 60. Studies + work I was working around 65-70 hours a week. Not nearly as physically taxing I'm sure, but no walk in the park.

[shorelinetrance]

nevermind my post was completely unnecessary.

wheres the delete button?:rolleyes:

[KrazyRabidSheep]

You don't understand the situation I'm in. My studies require all my energy and devotion. It is not regular high school. For me, it has come to the point where everything has taken a backseat to school and other studies. Don't judge me. You don't know me well enough to do so.You think that members who have been through school don't know what you've been through? I am not judging you, however, I have to agree with Devrim.

Even a "special school" is nothing compared to bill-paying, full-time working, family raising (thankfully I don't have one yet; don't be a fool, wrap your tool), business-trip taking, night school studying, bureaucracy-battling, errand-running, independent living.

I'm sure that you are a very busy individual, and I'm sure you have your share of stress in your life; however, we've been there. Until you've been where we have, don't judge us.

[Saorsa]

I didn't imply that there weren't members with jobs. It just amuses me a little when students go on about how hard life is.


Provide a single piece of evidence that backs up you're claim that I was going on about "how hard my life is". I never did.

Would you be willing to go into what you mean by "special school" Globalcommie? And why that has to take up so much of you're time? Because as Devrim was saying, that doesn't really compare to having to work fulltime from an early age.

[Leo]

I think most students live in quite bad conditions, and do have to work hard. For example here, the standard student meal is said to be a cigarette and tea, and that students possibly eat a small piece of pastry once a day, maybe once in two days. Students are looked down upon in the society and by the school managers, are always underpaid when they try to find work, have to deal with loads of problems in school and especially for today, being future full-time workers, they have to worry about their future conditions and what is being taken away. Students usually have lots of problems due to their conditions, and I don't think it really is ridiculous for them to talk about such issues, they are real problems. I think it is wrong to tell students not to talk about their problems and daily lives because they are supposedly not real problems compared to the problems of full-time workers, and it is also something that would divide the proletariat, since the majority of students have illusions that they won't be workers in the future because they are going to a university and thus the majority of students see themselves outside of the proletariat, despite actually being future workers. Obviously full time workers at times go through more serious, life-and-death problems, and most of them are more exhausted than students after a day: regardless I don't think telling students to shut up and enjoy the "best part of their lives" without talking about their problems is the way to go forward. The daily problems and conditions of most students are issues of the working class as a whole as well, not just in the general level, but also in the personal level, since most students today come from proletarian families.

This said, I don't think being a student can in anyway be a barrier to being a militant if one was to be a militant. In fact it is quite a suitable time because as well as being very busy at times, it gives one enough free time, and it is perfectly possible to be succesful at school while being a militant. Of course it also has other advantages, such as being able to skip classes when there's something important, like demonstrations, and being able to read politics when one gets bored in the classroom. Obviously one does not have to be a militant if one doesn't want to be or doesn't think one has time for it, but doing it with school is completely possible, especially considering that doing it while working full-time is possible as well.

[Edelweiss]

Not being member of an organization doesn't mean you are not active. Actually in many cases by joining leftist organizations/groups, people often get desillusionized quickly and get driven off leftist politics entirely. There reasons are different, sometimes it's the authoritarian, or sectarian group structure in Leninist parties, where small groups are often dominated by by one or two persons, but this also applies to anarchist groups, whose structure is often similar, and the "leaders" are just not officially named. Very often it's just personal stuff. Often people just get sick of endless discussion rounds without any results, or the other way round, blind activism.

So of course this is not a general rule, but sometimes it's just more healthy to be only loosely organized.

[politics student]

Sorry if I came across as pissed off.

I do see myself joining an organization.

But we have to go according to our own pace, not with the "get off the couch, you lazy bastard" attitude as shown in the OP.

I'm looking at joining an organization but I am leaving the area for uni so they may not be active where I am going so a bit concerned that I will join and the nearest meeting will be 50 miles away.

[RHIZOMES]

or sectarian group structure in Leninist parties, where small groups are often dominated by by one or two persons,

Yeah Socialist Aotearoa is like that, being dominated by one person. Except it's quite anti-Leninist and liberal/revisionist. :lol: My party is Leninist and if any specific member left (No matter HOW important) it'd still run on as usual.

[Colonello Buendia]

I'm a highschool kid, and all I can say is that with a little bit of perspective I can see that my life is a steal compared to people who have to work

[KurtFF8]

Its not that i dont want to join an organization,is that there isnt one.And its not that i dont want to talk with comrades,its that we are small number and scattered all over the country,i cant get to the other side of the country walking.There are numbers of problems that you seem not to understand because simply you have no idea whats going on down here.And if you had readen my post correctly then you would understand that i may not being a member of an org but that doesnt mean that i do not try for my idea.And what you mean putting our ideas in practise?should i built Anarchism on my own and some other members?that no one makes it!

I'm not saying that organizing is easy or even avaiable to everyone. Just that if you have an opportunity to join an organization or start any type of organization (and are able to of course) then you ought to if you want to take your ideas into practice.

And yes I do understand the situation of countries where revolutionaries are quite spread out, but that's why there are large national organizations like SDS for example, to help facilitate organizing.




I am not.who told about philosophers?i can say to you surely that i am not one!:lol:

Fuserg9:star:

I didn't say we were all philosophers. But the quite in the context that I used it should be interpreted more broadly. If we engage in learning theoretical concepts about capitalism and the alternatives to it and stop at that, we really are just being complacent. Again I'm not claiming that everyone is in a situation where they can do something and organize, but many people who can and don't need to get up and start some sort of participation in leftist organizing.

[Lost In Translation]

You think that members who have been through school don't know what you've been through? I am not judging you, however, I have to agree with Devrim.

Even a "special school" is nothing compared to bill-paying, full-time working, family raising (thankfully I don't have one yet; don't be a fool, wrap your tool), business-trip taking, night school studying, bureaucracy-battling, errand-running, independent living.

I'm sure that you are a very busy individual, and I'm sure you have your share of stress in your life; however, we've been there. Until you've been where we have, don't judge us.
I'm not judging you. I'm just saying that you cannot look down (or look up) and say 'I've done this, this is easy, you can do more'. Yes, if I look back after 10 years and see what i've wrote, I would say 'Haha, what an idiot i was back then, thinking school was hard', but I haven't lived that long, so I can't say. I suspect that school was hard for anybody when they were at that age, not when they were looking back and reminiscing...

[Pogue]

Judging by you're metaphysical, liberal and thoroughly devoid of class analysis posts in this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/police-t83648/index.html), I think it's obvious that you desperately need to get clud up about "theoretical stuff". Without theory we are groping in the dark, and you're obviously banging you're shins on the furniture all over the place.

I think most people here are misinterpreting what Oi Oi Oi was trying to say. I'm 16, and I've been active in the Workers Party (http://www.revleft.com/vb/www.workersparty.org.nz) since I was 15. Only a bit under two hours ago I was on a megaphone leading chants at a roughly 100-150 strong protest against the arrest of legalise cannabis activists on campus by plainclothes pigs. I'm on the Editorial Board of the WP's paper, I've written a lot of articles for it, and I'm active in the National Distribution Union.

I'm not just trying to blow my own trumpet here - my point is that just because you're young and have a lot of study and work to do (which I do, seeing as how I plan on going to Uni a year early next year) doesn't mean you can't also get active in revolutionary politics.

A party is like an anchor - it keeps you firmly docked in revolutionary socialist waters, and prevents you from drifting off into the petty-bourgeois liberal sea. If you are not an active member of an organisation, you run the risk of getting disillusioned with you're ideas, and feeling isolated, like there's no hope for you're cause.

Being active in a Party will help train you up in revolutionary socialist theory, and will ensure that you're in frequent contact with people who feelt he same way as you. It will allow you to channel and focus you're energies into productive work that produces real results - the whole point of an organisation is so you achieve more with you're time and effort than you could individually.

If there is a revolutionary organisation in your area, be it anarchist, Trotskyist, Hoxhaist, Maoist, or non-sectarian, you have no excuses for not getting active in it. There are people in the WP who are single mothers on a low income and irregular hours, with a big student loan debt to pay off and a PhD to finish writing, but despite all this they still contribute a hell of a lot of their time, effort and even money to the organisation and our struggle. Trying to get you're homework in on time doesn't compare to that.

Oh, you're 16, right. Now I will forgive you for the fact you keep calling me liberal, you're young and don't know enough to understand what you're talking about! Phew.

[Led Zeppelin]

Not being member of an organization doesn't mean you are not active. Actually in many cases by joining leftist organizations/groups, people often get desillusionized quickly and get driven off leftist politics entirely. There reasons are different, sometimes it's the authoritarian, or sectarian group structure in Leninist parties, where small groups are often dominated by by one or two persons, but this also applies to anarchist groups, whose structure is often similar, and the "leaders" are just not officially named. Very often it's just personal stuff. Often people just get sick of endless discussion rounds without any results, or the other way round, blind activism.

So of course this is not a general rule, but sometimes it's just more healthy to be only loosely organized.

Wow, weird, I didn't think I'd agree with Malte on organizational issues.

Couldn't agree more.

And also, can we please cut out the elitism crap? People have their own life experiences, let them have it. If one person finds it hard to focus a lot on school, its obviously only because they haven't had to focus on something harder, so what? If someone was born in Sudan and had to work on a farm for 18 hours a day he would've had a harder time as well.

It's all subjective, so let's not judge others on such things, it's totally meaningless, especially on the internet.

[Saorsa]

Oh, you're 16, right. Now I will forgive you for the fact you keep calling me liberal, you're young and don't know enough to understand what you're talking about! Phew.

You're point being? The year I was born is irrelevant. The issue is the actual content of what I say, and the actual content of what you say. You are a liberal, and sending me PMs with wikipedia quotations doesn't exactly convince me of you're incredible grasp of revolutionary theory bro.

From what I've seen of you're posts, you're knowledge is a drop in the sea compared to mine, so don't substitue actual argument for bullshit attacks on the fact that I'm 16. All that does is expose the fact that you don't have the ability to take on the arguments that I and other were levelling at you.

[Sendo]

I think most students live in quite bad conditions, and do have to work hard. For example here, the standard student meal is said to be a cigarette and tea, and that students possibly eat a small piece of pastry once a day, maybe once in two days. Students are looked down upon in the society and by the school managers, are always underpaid when they try to find work, have to deal with loads of problems in school and especially for today, being future full-time workers, they have to worry about their future conditions and what is being taken away. Students usually have lots of problems due to their conditions, and I don't think it really is ridiculous for them to talk about such issues, they are real problems. I think it is wrong to tell students not to talk about their problems and daily lives because they are supposedly not real problems compared to the problems of full-time workers, and it is also something that would divide the proletariat, since the majority of students have illusions that they won't be workers in the future because they are going to a university and thus the majority of students see themselves outside of the proletariat, despite actually being future workers. Obviously full time workers at times go through more serious, life-and-death problems, and most of them are more exhausted than students after a day: regardless I don't think telling students to shut up and enjoy the "best part of their lives" without talking about their problems is the way to go forward. The daily problems and conditions of most students are issues of the working class as a whole as well, not just in the general level, but also in the personal level, since most students today come from proletarian families.

This said, I don't think being a student can in anyway be a barrier to being a militant if one was to be a militant. In fact it is quite a suitable time because as well as being very busy at times, it gives one enough free time, and it is perfectly possible to be succesful at school while being a militant. Of course it also has other advantages, such as being able to skip classes when there's something important, like demonstrations, and being able to read politics when one gets bored in the classroom. Obviously one does not have to be a militant if one doesn't want to be or doesn't think one has time for it, but doing it with school is completely possible, especially considering that doing it while working full-time is possible as well.

There's the wonderful problem of having public support for education down the tubes. If you go to a college you can't afford it's because you're convinced that it's necessary and that you'll be able to pay off the loans no problem ponce you get that magic job upon graduation. Problem is, if you become radical and have your family saddled up with 90 Grand of debt you can't really risk getting arrested.

[RHIZOMES]

Oh, you're 16, right. Now I will forgive you for the fact you keep calling me liberal, you're young and don't know enough to understand what you're talking about! Phew.

Great ad hominem there. Of course the age thing only applies when it's someone you disagree with right?