An American on Josef Stalin

[Cassius Clay]

Next month it is 50 years since Josef Stalin died, the below is an article written by the American W.E.B Dubious, I know little of this man but that he was a fighter against rascism throughout his whole life and became a Communist.


''From the National Guardian, March 16, 1953)

Josef Stalin was a great man; few other men of the twentieth century approach his stature. He was simple, calm and courageous. He seldom lost his poise; pondered his problems slowly, made his decisions clearly and firmly; never yielded to ostentation nor coyly refrained from holding his rightful place with dignity. He was the son of a serf, but stood calmly before the great without hesitation or nerves. But also — and this was the highest proof of his greatness — he knew the common man, felt his problems, followed his fate.

Stalin was not a man of conventional learning; he was much more than that; he was a man who thought deeply, read understandingly and listened to wisdom, no matter whence it came. He was attacked and slandered as few men of power have been; yet he seldom lost his courtesy and balance; nor did he let attack drive him from his convictions or induce him to surrender positions which he knew were correct. As one of the despised minorities of man, he first set Russia on the road to conquer race prejudice and make one nation out of its 140 groups without destroying their individuality.

His judgment of men was profound. He early saw through the flamboyance and exhibitionism of Trotsky, who fooled the world, and especially America. The whole ill-bread and insulting attitude of liberals in the U.S. today began with our naive acceptance of Trotsky’s magnificent lying propaganda, which he carried around the world. Against it, Stalin stood like a rock and moved neither right nor left, as he continued to advance toward a real socialism instead of the sham Trotsky offered.

Three great decisions faced Stalin in power and he met them magnificently; first, the problem of the peasants, then the West European attack, and last the Second World War. The poor Russian peasant was the lowest victim of tsarism, capitalism and the Orthodox Church. He surrendered the Little White Father [the Tsar] easily; he turned less readily but perceptibly from his icons; but his kulaks [rich peasants] clung tenaciously to capitalism and were near wrecking the revolution when Stalin risked a second revolution and drove out the rural bloodsuckers.

Then came intervention, the continuing threat of attack by all nations, halted by the Depression, only to be re-opened by Hitlerism. It was Stalin who steered the Soviet Union between Scylla and Charybdis;* Western Europe and the U.S. were willing to betray her to fascism, and then had to beg her aid in the Second World War. A lesser man than Stalin would have demanded vengeance for Munich, but he had the wisdom to ask only justice for his fatherland….The British Empire proposed first to save itself in Africa and southern Europe, while Hitler smashed the Soviets.

The Second Front dawdled, but Stalin pressed unfalteringly ahead. He risked the utter ruin of socialism in order to smash the dictatorship of Hitler and Mussolini. After Stalingrad the Western World did not know whether to weep or applaud. The cost of victory to the Soviet Union was frightful. To this day the outside world has no dream of the hurt, the loss and the sacrifices. For his calm, stern leadership here, if nowhere else, arises the deep worship of Stalin by the people of all the Russias.

Then came the problem of Peace. Hard as this was to Europe and America, it was far harder to Stalin and the Soviets. The conventional rulers of the world hated and feared them and would have been only too willing to see the utter failure of this attempt at socialism. At the same time the fear of Japan and Asia was also real. Diplomacy therefore took hold and Stalin was picked as the victim. He was called in conference with British Imperialism represented by its trained and well-fed aristocracy; and with the vast wealth and potential power of America represented by its most liberal leader in half a century.

Here Stalin showed his real greatness. He neither cringed nor strutted. He never presumed, he never surrendered....He asked neither adulation nor vengeance. He was reasonable and conciliatory. But on what he deemed essential, he was inflexible. He was willing to resurrect the League of Nations, which had insulted the Soviets. He was willing to fight Japan, even though Japan was then no menace to the Soviet Union, and might be death to the British Empire and to American trade. But on two points Stalin was adamant: Clemenceau’s "Cordon Sanitaire"** must be returned to the Soviets, whence it had been stolen as a threat. The Balkans were not to be left helpless before Western exploitation for the benefit of land monopoly….

Such was the man who lies dead, still the butt of noisy jackals and the ill-bred men of some parts of the distempered West. In life he suffered under continuous and studied insult; he was forced to make bitter decisions on his own lone responsibility. His reward comes as the common man stands in solemn acclaim.

W.E.B. Dubois, March 16, 1953''

[Just Joe]

yeah but look at the date. March 1953. Stalins crimes weren't known at that time.

[Cassius Clay]

So please tell what 'crimes' of Stalin have been found since. About the only one I can think of is Katryn and it's stll debatable whether the Germans or Soviets commited that.

[Uhuru na Umoja]

The scale of the Great Terror was not known at the time. Since Soviet records have been opened to the public many new, and shocking, facts have been learnt. For example it is now known that following the Kirov murder 1/4 of Leningrad's population was arrested.

[James]

What do you have to say for the "work camps" in places such as sibera and so on.

I've also been brought up on the notion that no political opposition was allowed (i vividly remember something about Stalin killing nearly all the people that didn't vote for him).

[James]

sorry thats a crap post.

[Mazdak]

Labor camps are not evil. Prisons are evil.

Prisons make those who commit no crimes support those who commit crimes with their tax money.

Labor camps mean that the criminals pay for themselves. Labor camps are a punishment, prison is not. Labor camps actually make the criminals do something. And something productive at that. What do prisons do? Besides drain the economy and take tax money?

[Cassius Clay]

''The scale of the Great Terror was not known at the time. Since Soviet records have been opened to the public many new, and shocking, facts have been learnt. For example it is now known that following the Kirov murder 1/4 of Leningrad's population was arrested.''

Righttttttttttttttttt. Source for this please? Considering the U$ has 3 million more people in prison than the USSR ever did I find this hard to believe. Let's ask a Capitalist or a Socialist who happens to have residence in the good old U$A whether or not a fourth of their respective city's population is in prison.

'The scale of the Great terror was not known at the time', well in the sense that extreme right-wing media tycoons hadn't had long enough to launch their vicious propaganda campaign then you may have a point. But come on the purges were hardly a secret, those bought to trial were bought so infront of everybody from the world's press, lawyers and Ambassadors (as in the Moscow Trials) to corrupt, trotskyite-Fascist agents bought to justice by the workers in a local soviet.

[thursday night]

Great post Clay.

[James]

Mazdak, i agree.

However, i do think its "evil" to send people straight to a death camp in siberia and left to die of the cold.

I know i don't have any 'facts', but i think we all know that there some very unfair purges, where all the political opposition was removed. Surely?

However, i don't even pretend to know anything of the history on it all.

[James]

Acctually after declaring "i don't even pretend to know anything about the subject", i've decided to educate myself. From a mere five minutes Stalin has prooved to be a very interesting subject. I'm reading,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/modern/stal...in/stalihtm.htm (http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/modern/stalin/stalihtm.htm)
At the moment.
I'm interested as to what the "stalinists" think of this.

[James]

In particular,
How did Stalin try to eliminate opposition in the 1930s? In December 1934 Sergei Kirov, the Communist Party leader in Leningrad, was murdered. It is now widely believed that his murder was ordered by Stalin, who was frightened, because Kirov appeared to be more popular than he was. As a result of this murder Stalin initiated 'the Purges' as a means of removing any perceived opposition. From 1934 to 1938 at least 7,000,000 people disappeared. these included the Bolshevik leaders whom he had forced out from 1925 to 1927, poets, scientists, managers of industries who did not meet their targets for production and millions of ordinary Soviet citizens, who often did not know what they had done to anger Stalin. Most of the senior officers in the Red Army and the Red Navy were also executed.
the leading Bolsheviks were given "Show Trials", where they were forced to confess to ridiculous crimes which they could not possibly have committed.
In the 1930s Stalin began to rewrite the history of Russia and the Soviet Union in the twentieth century - school books and encyclopaedias were destroyed or altered, and children in school had to paste over pages in their books with the new versions of what had happened. This became known as the "Revision of History".
Stalin wanted to destroy the reputations of the other Bolshevik leaders, like Bukharin and Kamenev. This would explain why he had put them on trial and had them executed. He picked on Trotsky in particular, because Lenin had chosen him as his successor. He accused him of treason and said that he had done nothing to help Russia or the Soviet Union. Stalin claimed that he alone had been responsible for the successes in the Civil War in 1918 to 1920.
Stalin wanted to make out that only he knew what Lenin had intended to do in Russia. This would help Stalin justify why he became the leader and would make Russians accept him. Stalin had many paintings produced, which showed him close to Lenin. He had Lenin's body preserved in a huge mausoleum in Red Square and encouraged Soviet citizens to visit it. In fact Lenin had not wanted this to happen; he had requested a small burial.
Stalin wanted to build himself up to be all-powerful and stop anyone opposing his ideas. This became known as the "Cult of Personality". Stalin made out that he was a superman who never made any mistakes. He was called the "wisest man alive", and the "genius of the age".

Stalin made sure that everyone knew about his successes. He used many forms of propaganda to pass on the news, but his favourite form was paintings and sculptures. these appeared all over Russia. they showed Stalin meeting smiling people, opening factories and dams, and he always looked rather taller and fitter than he actually was.

Of all the dictators who came to power between the two World Wars, Stalin was the most successful. Not only did he murder more people than any of the others, but lived to be seventy-three, dying in 1953.

[thursday night]

",000,000 richer peasants, Kulaks, were murdered or starved to death."

Ah yes, the Kulaks. Counterrevolutionaries and former soliders in the White Army to the man. These 'peasants' were on verge of all out war with the Soviet Union, and further more I find the numbers quite difficult to believe.

"Of all the dictators who came to power between the two World Wars, Stalin was the most successful. Not only did he murder more people than any of the others, but lived to be seventy-three, dying in 1953."p

Here we go with the "he was worse than Hitler!" crap.

[Sirion]

Interesting post, Mazdak.

I havenever thought of it that way, but I agree wit h what you say 100%

[Saint-Just]

'Labor camps mean that the criminals pay for themselves. Labor camps are a punishment, prison is not. Labor camps actually make the criminals do something. And something productive at that. What do prisons do? Besides drain the economy and take tax money?'

In labour camps re-education is the prime objective. Through labour a person can observe the absolute antithesis of crime; that is to say productive labour that benefits society, as opposed to unproductive destruction that only has individual benefit

[Tavarish Spetsnaz]

LOL...James...look at the source of that article...BBC!!! LOL...oh yeas...you'll learn plenty on Stalin from them...

Ahm...7 milion people "disapeared"???? How come Soviet Archives have no mention of that???But somehow BBC knows..how I ask you??? Pulled it out of their ass...

Kirov...NO ONE...has EVER...given even the slightest evidence that Stalin had anything to do with that. Khruschiev tried to find evidence to point at Stalin...he found no evidence..so he forgot about it. Gorbachivo did an investigation to point at Stalin...he too found no evidence..so he forgot about it.

Stalin hated Kirov becasue Kirov was more popular than him???? Hmm....how did BBC determine that?? Kirov won in the elections in Leningrad...for a post which Stalin wasn't even running in. So how was Kirov more popular than Stalin...if Kirov was elected in an election in which Stalin was not even participating in???

Thats like saying the mayor of a city is more popular than the president..becasue the mayor won an election for mayor. Makes no sense...

Kirov was killed by Zinoviev-Kamanev-Bukharin group. As Kirov himself said...after his election victory...Bukharin came to him and asked him to join an anti-Stalin block in the Party. Kirov rejected them...and went and told Stalin about it. Therefore...Bukharin had him killed. Kirov was Stalin's strongest supporter...hence the perfect target for those trying to weaken the government...

Stalin killed all those who did not vote for him??? Err...let me guess...with his own hand. It was a secret ballot...if Stalin didn't know who voted against him...how does BBC know???

Ahm...excuse me...but Kirov told Stalin that Bukharin, Zinoviev, Kamanev and co wanted him to join an anti-Stalin block in the party...this in 1934. Stalin knew that...and yet all three of them remained in the CC of the party for 3 more years to come...until the evidence against them was found. Stalin had no evidence against them...nor did he have the power to remove them...nor did he even attempt to do so.

According to Stalin's own words...he did not believe Bukharin was involved with any wrong doing...until evidence could be found otherwise...

Send to a death camp to freze in Siberia?? Siberia is 2/3s of the USSR...so to say "Siberia"...does not mean evil wasteland...its 2/3s of the damned country!! Where else would prisons be...on the sunny beaches of the Black Sea??? Death camps??? Err...the vast majority of sentances were 1-5 years...and up to 1937...maximum sentancing was 10 years. Not to mention that in the USSR there were far fewer people in jails than there are inthe US today.

Labor camp is a jail...nothing more. ALL prisons are labor camps...even in the US. You work there for about 14 cents an hour...making clothes or some other product for next to nothing. If you are black however...you get send to work in the fields...

But all prisons are labor camps...no one lets you sit on your ass for 24 hours a day and feed you for it...

1/4 of the population of Leningrad??? OMG...that sounds like something Goebbels would have said...LOL...what a bunch of crap. But than again...Stalin has been accused by Solzhenitsyn of killing 100 milion people..when the USSR had a population of 170 milion. LOL...someone shoot that old bugger...PLEASE!!! (Solzhenitsyn I mean...)

But seriously...where did you hear 1/4 of Leningrad killed??? LOL...the Soviet Archives???? Soviet Archives have been opened for about 10 years now...and not ONE WORD has come out of it proving ANY of the things Stalin is supposedly accused of. instead...so much information has come out DISPROVING EVERYTHING he is accused of...that western "historians" are forced to completely ignore the archives.

As Clay points out...Katyn...but even that is not sure. There is too much evidence in the archives themlseves of otherwise...And there is too much evidence that those 2 documents found on Katyn...were doctored and faked by Yeltsin's men.

The truth on Stalin will not be learned on BBC...and if you think you can learn it on BBC...than do us all a favor and go join the Republican Party...they are almost that stupid.

[RedComrade]

A problem I and I think many other on this site have when attempting to debate with Stalinists is their self assured dissmissal of all negative histories of Stalin as capitalist propaganda. I have said it before and I will say it again, exactly what sources are acceptable to you stalinist? What sources other than those written by Stalins propagandists are not burgeois trotskyist distortions. Your blind faith in a murderous tyrant who took the power out of the hands of the proletariat is disturbing and for people who i assume call themselves atheists is quite hypocritical and mimics the christians blind faith in god. Another idea that makes me quite sick is your attempts to link Trostsky with Nazism. Not only was Trotsky a jew he was also the only major communist figure speaking out against fascism and encouraging the KPD to campaign chiefly against them while the directors in moscow were telling the KPD to focus on degrading the SPD. It is even more pathetic when very few of you fools have read shit Trotsky was saying at the time which contradictory to Stalin was calling for a direct confrontation not with the SPD but with the rising right wing elements in Germany. While Stalin was signing the Nazi-Soviet pact and making peace and alliance with the fascist scum Trotsky was crusading against it. Are you idiots going to be so dumb as to deny the Soviet-Nazi pact as a lie to. Your hypocrisy and lack of regard for facts is transparent.

[Kapitan Andrey]

Damn stupid stalinist-cassius clay!!!

>I know little of this man but that he was a fighter against rascism throughout his whole life and became a Communist.<-BULL SHIT!!!

Uhuru na Umoja:
>For example it is now known that following the Kirov murder 1/4 of Leningrad's population was arrested.<-TRUE!

Tavarish Spetsnaz- Òû-ñóêà, ìíå íå òîâàðèù!!! Ñòàëèíèñò-òû ¨Á**ÛÉ!!! Íåêîòîðûå ìîè ïðåäêè ïîïàëè ïîä òîïîð ñòàëèíà è åù¸ áîëåå ìèëëèîíà ÷åëîâåê, à òåïåðü òû åãî îïðàâäàòü õî÷åøü!? Õ*É ÒÅÁÅ!!!

F**K stalin,beria,kirov,trotskiy and other killers of the Slavs!!!

I will fight against stalin and his followers till the day I die!!!

[Cassius Clay]

''Damn stupid stalinist-cassius clay!!!

>I know little of this man but that he was a fighter against rascism throughout his whole life and became a Communist.<-BULL SHIT!!!

Uhuru na Umoja:
>For example it is now known that following the Kirov murder 1/4 of Leningrad's population was arrested.<-TRUE!

Tavarish Spetsnaz- Òû-ñóêà, ìíå íå òîâàðèù!!! Ñòàëèíèñò-òû ¨Á**ÛÉ!!! Íåêîòîðûå ìîè ïðåäêè ïîïàëè ïîä òîïîð ñòàëèíà è åù¸ áîëåå ìèëëèîíà ÷åëîâåê, à òåïåðü òû åãî îïðàâäàòü õî÷åøü!? Õ*É ÒÅÁÅ!!!

F**K stalin,beria,kirov,trotskiy and other killers of the Slavs!!!

''I will fight against stalin and his followers till the day I die!!!''

Surely we must have some sought of rule making sure people can't come up with posts like this and get away with it. *

[Cassius Clay]

''A problem I and I think many other on this site have when attempting to debate with Stalinists is their self assured dissmissal of all negative histories of Stalin as capitalist propaganda.''

No your problem is that you blindly follow what Ronald Reagen or Joseph Goebbels say and act as their mouthpeice for propaganda. Also another problem might be that you refuse to accept the FACTS, 'Redcomrade' you totally ignore evidence when it is presented to you and you continue to spout whatever Trotsky said or thought.


''I have said it before and I will say it again, exactly what sources are acceptable to you stalinist?
What sources other than those written by Stalins propagandists are not burgeois trotskyist distortions.''

Sources based on reliable a-political eye witness accounts. From there we can see that there WAS sabotage and that the Moscow trials were fair, just too name two examples. Also sources backed up by common sense and some evidence might be helpful. Not as above a article written by a GCSE history student who has been brainwashed and more importantly done NO reasearch.


''Your blind faith in a murderous tyrant who took the power out of the hands of the proletariat is disturbing and for people who i assume call themselves atheists is quite hypocritical and mimics the christians blind faith in god.''

First of all Stalin controlled everything did he (which I presume you mean by taking power away from the prolertariat?) The man couldn't even get who he wanted to head of the NKVD (Stalin voted for Malenkov, nearly everyone else voted for Beria) for christs sake. And somehow Stalin controlled who was elected to the local soviets? Please use a bit of common sense, for crying out loud look up on the Smolensk archive which has been available in the west since 1945. In perfectly fair and secret elections something like 50% of local officials were replaced.

''Another idea that makes me quite sick is your attempts to link Trostsky with Nazism.''

'Your attempts' LOL, Trotsky did that fine all by himself.

Read.

Provocations in the service of the Nazis
To prepare for the Nazi war of aggression, Stalin and the Bolsheviks had to be overthrown. By defending this thesis, Trotsky became an instrument in the hands of the Hitlerites. Recently, during a meeting at the Free University of Brussels (ULB), a ranting Trotskyist yelled: `Those are lies! Trotsky always stated that he unconditionally defended the Soviet Union against imperialism.'

Yes, Trotsky always defended the Soviet Union, assuming that destroying the Bolshevik Party was the best preparation for defence! The essential point is that Trotsky was calling for an anti-Bolshevik insurrection, from which the Nazis, and not the handful of Trotskyists, would profit. Trotsky could well preach insurrection in the name of a `better defence' of the Soviet Union, but he clearly held an anti-Communist line and mobilized all the anti-socialist forces. There is no doubt that the Nazis were the first to appreciate this `better defence of the Soviet Union'.

Here are Trotsky's exact words about `a better defence of the Soviet Union'.

`I cannot be ``for the USSR'' in general. I am for the working masses who created the USSR and against the bureaucracy which has usurped the gains of the revolution .... It remains the duty of a serious revolutionary to state quite frankly and openly: Stalin is preparing the defeat of the USSR.'

.

Trotsky, A Political Dialogue, pp. 156, 158.


`I consider the main source of danger to the USSR in the present international situation to be Stalin and the oligarchy headed by him. An open struggle against them ... is inseparably connected for me with the defense of the USSR.'

.

Trotsky, Stalin After the Finnish Experience (13 March 1940). Writings, vol. 12, p. 160.


`The old Bolshevik Party was transformed into a caste apparatus ....

`Against the imperialist enemy, we will defend the USSR with all our might. However, the gains of the October Revolution will serve the people only if it shows itself capable of acting against the Stalinist bureaucracy as it did previously against the Tsarist bureaucracy and the bourgeoisie.'

.

Trotsky, Lettres aux travailleurs d'URSS (May 1940). La lutte, pp. 301--302.


`Only an uprising of the Soviet proletariat against the base tyranny of the new parasites can save what is still left over in the foundations of the society from the conquests of October .... In this sense and in this sense only, we defend the October Revolution from imperialism, fascist and democratic, from the Stalin bureaucracy, and from its ``hired friends''.'

.

Trotsky, The Twenty-First Anniversary (14 November 1938). Writings, vol. 11, p. 111.


From these citations, it is clear that the words `we support the USSR against imperialism' were pronounced by an anti-Communist who had to say them if he wanted to have the slightest chance of being listened to by the masses who were ready to defend the socialist régime to the bitter end. But only politically blind people could be confused by the meaning of this `defence'. In fact, this is how traitors and enemies prepare defence: `Stalin will betray, he is preparing defeat; so Stalin and the Bolshevik leadership have to be eliminated to defend the USSR.' Such propaganda perfectly suited the Nazis.

Trotsky `defended' the Soviet Union, but not the Soviet Union of Stalin and the Bolshevik Party. He pretended to defend the Soviet Union `with all our might', i.e. with his few thousand followers in the USSR! Meanwhile, these few thousand marginals should have prepared an insurrection against Stalin and the Bolshevik Party! Good defence, to be sure.

Even a hardened anti-Communist such as Tokaev thought that Trotsky's writings played into the hands of the German aggressors. Tokaev was anti-Communist, but a partisan of British imperialism. At the beginning of the war, he made the following reflexions:

`The peoples of the U.S.S.R., guided by their elemental feelings in the face of mortal danger, had made themselves one with the Stalin régime .... The opposed forces had joined hands; and this was a spontaneous act: the average Soviet outlook was: `Side even with the Devil, to defeat Hitler.' ... opposition to Stalin was not only harmful to the international anti-Axis front but was also equivalent to antagonism to the Peoples of the U.S.S.R.'

.

Tokaev, op. cit. , p. 188.


With the approach of World War II, Trotsky's main obsession, if not the only one, became the overthrow of the Bolshevik Party in the Soviet Union. His thesis was that of the world far-right: `whoever defends, directly or indirectly, Stalin and the Bolshevik Party, is the worst enemy of socialism'. Here are Trotsky's declarations:

`The reactionary bureaucracy must be and will be overthrown. The political revolution in the USSR is inevitable.'

.

Trotsky, Le gouvernement soviétique applique-t-il toujours les principes définis il y a vingt ans? (13 January 1938). La lutte, pp. 159--160.


`Only the overthrow of the Bonapartist Kremlin clique can make possible the regeneration of the military strength of the USSR .... The struggle against war, imperialism, and fascism demands a ruthless struggle against Stalinism, splotched with crimes. Whoever defends Stalinism directly or indirectly, whoever keeps silent about its betrayals or exaggerates its military strength is the worst enemy of the revolution, or socialism, of the oppressed peoples.'

.

Trotsky, A Fresh Lesson: After the ``Imperialist Peace'' at Munich (10 October 1938). Writings, vol. 11, p. 68.


When these lines were being written in 1938, a fierce class struggle was developing on the world scene, between fascism and Bolshevism. Only the most right-wing ideologues of French, British or U.S. imperialism or of fascism could defend Trotsky's thesis:

`Whoever defends Stalinism directly or indirectly ... is the worst enemy'.''


''Not only was Trotsky a jew he was also the only major communist figure speaking out against fascism''

Doesn't matter if he is a Jew, so were the infamous 'Blue Police' who took part in the genocide of their own people for material benefits. 'Speaking out against Fascism', given that Trotsky wanted workers who couldn't work thrown into concentration camps and for a worker who does go to work to have a rifle in his back I would say he was speaking for Fascism.

But more important than that is below.

''Trotskyism Revisited

I. Trotsky and the FBI

Red Youth

An article appeared in The Independent on the 25/11/1993 which gave details of a friend of Leon Trotsky's living in Mexico, Diego Rivera, who provided information to the FBI on anyone that he suspected of being GPU (Soviet intelligence) agents. His allegations were directed against anyone working in such organisations as the Mexican Communist Party (PCM) to Mexican trade unions. This in itself is interesting because, officially Rivera and Trotsky broke personal relations on May 31, 1940. Trotsky wrote in a letter to the chief of the Federal District in Mexico, 'I have nothing in common with the political activities of Diego Rivera. We broke our personal relations fifteen months ago.' (US National State archives; Trotsky Archive.)

But many people were mutual friends of the two, both of them worked in the same organisations such as the American Committee for the Defence of Leon Trotsky (ACDLT). Charles Curtiss was such a friend who sent Trotsky several reports of his meetings with Rivera: 'During my visit in Mexico, from July 4, 1938 to approximately July 15, 1939, I was in close association with Diego Rivera and Leon Trotsky.... I served as an intermediary between them,' (Writings of Leon Trotsky, 1939-40)

Trotsky of course knew of this, thus helping Rivera in supplying information to the FBI.

To return to the article in The independent, a Professor William Chase of the University of Pittsburgh was quoted at the end stating that he has 'concrete information' to prove that Trotsky was an FBI informant. Red Youth has subsequently obtained this information (the source relevant to this particular revelation is US State archives - RG 84 or from Prof. Chase himself. Any other evidence will be referred to after the quotation).

According to the Professor, the information Trotsky provided to the FBI was a means to obtain a US visa. But as the Professor points out, 'By providing the US Consulate with information about common enemies, be they Mexican or American communists or Soviet agents, Trotsky hoped to prove his value to a government that had no desire to grant him a visa.'

Trotsky's hysterical allegations were directed against anyone who might share sympathies with the USSR under Stalin. In America the ACDLT campaigned for the asylum of Trotsky in the US. At the time of the World Congress Against War and Fascism and the Latin American Labour Congress, Trotsky asked his supporters to 'mail as soon as possible known names of congress delegates who are GPU agents'. Prof. Chase admits himself the ridiculous nature of these allegations which leads one to think of the number of honest proletarian and democratic persons whose names who were supplied to the FBI, 'Trotsky's accusations that liberals and radicals who did not share his views on certain issues were Stalinists or GPU agents further diminished his support in the US.'

But there is more. With this array of high-flown allegations Trotsky accepted an invitation to appear in front of the 'Dies Committee'. This is otherwise known as the US Congress House Un-American Activities Committee. It was linked to overtly fascist figures, conducted anti-democratic witch-hunts and played a leading role in passing many anti-labour laws. Such was the anti-fascist and proletarian stance of Trotsky (fortunately, Trotsky never appeared on this committee because he never got a visa, but as we shall see he passed on information to the US government by other means). Now we come to the central point of this Red Youth exclusive: Trotsky's courtship of the FBI:

'In June [1940], Robert McGregor of the [US] Consulate met with Trotsky in his home... he met again with Trotsky on 13 July... Trotsky told McGregor in detail of the allegations and evidence he had compiled... He gave to McGregor the names of Mexican publications, political and labour leaders, and government officials allegedly associated with the PCM [Mexico and the USSR were the only countries in the world to materially support the fight against Franco's Fascism in the Spanish Civil War 1936-39]. He charged that one of the Comintern's [the Communist international's] leading agents, Carlos Contreras served on the PCM Directing Committee. He also discussed the alleged efforts of Narciso Bassols, former Mexican Ambassador to France, whom Trotsky claimed was a Soviet agent, to get him deported from Mexico.'

'Upon receipt, the State Department transmitted McGregor's memo to the FBI.

'...The Information, while not new, responded to both bodies' concerns.'

Well, there you have it. The outwardly anti-communist and anti-democratic veneer of the US was shared by Trotsky.

While the whole world was facing the onslaught of fascist forces, when the USSR with the guidance of the communist party and comrade Joseph Stalin were facing this attack single-handedly on the behalf of all progressive humanity, when the colonies of imperialism were striving for national liberation, Trotsky and his vile organisations were aiding reaction every-where and still play their significant part in this today. While Red Youth prints this new evidence, it is of no surprise to us or anyone at all acquainted with the role of Trotskyism, that Trotskyism is truly the agent of the ruling class within the ranks of the working class and is used to full advantage by our enemies to this day as much as in the past. 'Overnight many of the older anti-Bolshevik crusaders abandoned their former pro-Czarist and openly counter-revolutionary line, and adopted the new, streamlined Trotskyite device of attacking the Russian Revolution 'from the left'. In the following years it became an accepted thing for a Lord Rothermere or a William Randolph Hearst to accuse Josef Stalin of 'betraying the revolution' [one can still see this as we are taught that it was obvious that Trotsky was the natural successor to Lenin in our schools and have to read the books of another state informer and Trotskyist - George Orwell]....

'Adolf Hitler read Trotsky's autobiography as soon as it was published. Hitler's biographer, Konrad Heiden, tells in 'Der Fuehrer' how the Nazi leader surprised a circle of his friends in 1930 by bursting into rapturous praise of Trotsky's book' ('The Great Conspiracy Against Russia,' Kahn and Sayers).

But to be fair, Trotsky should be left to speak for himself. 'The wretched squabbling systematically provoked by Lenin, that old hand at the game, that professional exploiter of all that is backward in the Russian labour movement, seems like a senseless obsession.... The entire edifice of Leninism Is built on lies and falsification and bears within itself the poisonous elements of its own decay. '(Letter to Chkeidze 1913)

'Brilliant!' cried Hitler, waving Trotsky's 'My Life' at his followers. I have learned a great deal and so can you!' ('Great Conspiracy').

Lalkar, March-April 1997.



II. On the Use of Trotskyists as Japanese Spies in China

Mao Zedong

Mao Zedong, the Secretary of the Communist Party of China, states about the cooperation of the Japanese with the Trotskyists: 'only a short while ago in one of the divisions of the Eighth Revolutionary Peoples' Army, a man by the name of Yu Shih was exposed as a member of the Shanghai Trotskyist organisation. The Japanese had sent him there from Shanghai so that he could do espionage work in the Eighth Army and carry out sabotage work.

'In the central districts of Hebei the Trotskyists organised a 'Partisan-Company' on the direct instructions of the Japanese headquarters and called it a 'Second Section of the Eighth Army'. In March the two battalions of this company organised a mutiny but these bandits were surrounded by the Eighth Army and disarmed. In the Border Region such people are arrested by the peasant self-defence units which carry out a bitter struggle against traitors and spies.

'Trotskyist agents are being sent to the Border Regions where they systematically apply all methods in their sabotage work against the cooperation of the Kuomintang and the Communist Party. They try to destroy the morale of the soldiers of the Eighth Army, the students and the people of the Border Regions. They try to incite people against the United Front, against the Central Government, against the war of independence, against Marshal Chiang Kaishek.'

In an interview with the Soviet journalist, R. Carmen who is at present in China, Mao, who is recognized by the Japanese as the best strategist in China, declared that the attempts of the reactionary English and other politicians to convince China to renounce its plans are destined to be shattered. 'China is not only determined to beat the Japanese but also to strengthen the National and United Front and to extend it. Only very few people want to have an understanding with the Japanese and fight against the Central Anti-Japanese Government and the United Front... If we do not destroy these people then it will be difficult to be victorious against the Japanese. But the Chinese people - and with them the Communists, the progressive elements in the Kuomintang and the other parties - are determined to carry out the struggle to a victorious conclusion.'

Translated from the German by V.P. Sharma.
Rundschau (Basel), No. 41, 3rd August, 1939, p. 1169.''


''and encouraging the KPD to campaign chiefly against them while the directors in moscow were telling the KPD to focus on degrading the SPD. It is even more pathetic when very few of you fools have read shit Trotsky was saying at the time which contradictory to Stalin was calling for a direct confrontation not with the SPD but with the rising right wing elements in Germany.''

The above is a typhical example of Trotsky's opportunism. It is true that the KPD and SPD made a mistake not to unite, but Trotsky and you speak with the great benefit of hignsight. Not to mention that Stalin was proved right when he described the SPD as 'Social-Fascists' as it turned out the SPD was only to happy to have the Communists banned and thrown into jail. You also forget to mention that it was the KPD who called for a general strike the moment Hitler was declared chancellor, having previously fought the Nazis for a decade and more. Why is this a example of Trotsky's opportunism? Well because the moment the International Communist parties did unite with anyone else to fight Fascism (see Georgi Dmitrov and the policy of a 'United anti-Fascist front') Trotsky accused them of selling out the working classes to Capitalism.


''While Stalin was signing the Nazi-Soviet pact and making peace and alliance with the fascist scum Trotsky was crusading against it.''

An 'alliance' ? Please tell me when Hitler and Stalin were ever allies. From a Marxist point of view is it not good that the Imperialists fight eachother? Marx and Lenin had predicted that would happen and the pact insured that the Imperialists did just that when the alternative was they would all unite against socialism in the USSR. Trotsky was crusading against the Soveit Union yes, but he colloborated with Nazism in Germany, the FBI and Imperial Japan. Not to mention his supporters acting as Fascist agents for Franco and Hitler in Spain.

''Are you idiots going to be so dumb as to deny the Soviet-Nazi pact as a lie to.''

No, why would we? But what you forget to mention is that it was the USSR who opposed Hitler from the start, in Spain and had called for a 'United anti-Fascist front' for years. Not to mention it was the USSR who offered over 100,000 men to help the Czech people in their fight against Fascism. Prevented only by Polish Landlords and British Imperialists.


''Your hypocrisy and lack of regard for facts is transparent.''

Change 'your' for 'myself and other cool Trotskyites' and that statement is entirely correct.

[Politrickian]

Quote: from RedComrade on 5:38 am on Feb. 10, 2003
While Stalin was signing the Nazi-Soviet pact and making peace and alliance with the fascist scum Trotsky was crusading against it.


The first part from Lenin's book "Peacefull Coexistance"(badly translated from dutch, btw)

"From the first day of it's existance, the Soviet State has followed a policy of peacfull coexistance between socialist and capitalist countries."

Are you trying to tell me that Stalin was being a dickhead at the times he was following Lenin's ideology?

[thursday night]

Clay: I wonder if any of the Trotskyites actually read that post.

[Cassius Clay]

Thursday, ofcourse they did, they just aren't going to respond to it. This thread will likely now die away, just like everyother thread where these so called 'Leftists' are proved to be wrong. See the 'We Shall Not Allow Criticism of Stalin' thread.

[RedComrade]

"No your problem is that you blindly follow what Ronald Reagen or Joseph Goebbels say and act as their mouthpeice for propaganda. Also another problem might be that you refuse to accept the FACTS, 'Redcomrade' you totally ignore evidence when it is presented to you and you continue to spout whatever Trotsky said or thought."

While I know this is 180 degrees from the truth i'm afraid I can't say the same for you comrade. Your speech and posts consistently testify to your blind obedience and acceptance of everything Stalin did. Your blind faith and naivety is enough to make even a fundamentalist christian cringe you putrid perverter of Marxist-Leninism

"Sources based on reliable a-political eye witness accounts. From there we can see that there WAS sabotage and that the Moscow trials were fair, just too name two examples. Also sources backed up by common sense and some evidence might be helpful. Not as above a article written by a GCSE history student who has been brainwashed and more importantly done NO reasearch. "

For the hundredth time state what exactly those sources are! tell me were I can find them! You actually excpect the soviet authorities would give a-political foreginers a glimpse at what was really going on in the u.s.s.r? Your naivety never ceases to amaze me Clay.
I am not a history student merely a 14 year old kid on a mission for the truth. While you may try and use my age here to discredit me I am not ashamed of my youth and any reasonable opponent will not judge me by it. I have not been brainwashed or I would have never taken in an interest in Marxist-Leninism.

"First of all Stalin controlled everything did he (which I presume you mean by taking power away from the prolertariat?) The man couldn't even get who he wanted to head of the NKVD (Stalin voted for Malenkov, nearly everyone else voted for Beria) for christs sake. And somehow Stalin controlled who was elected to the local soviets? Please use a bit of common sense, for crying out loud look up on the Smolensk archive which has been available in the west since 1945. In perfectly fair and secret elections something like 50% of local officials were replaced."

Ahh here you go twisting my words again, never once have i said that Stalin held all of the power. Out of necessity some power was left in the hands of others. However he did maintain a gross abusive monopoly on the power and for a man who claimed to be in favor of an ideology for the masses he certainly did very little to allow them a voice and a say in government affairs.

"'Your attempts' LOL, Trotsky did that fine all by himself."

After reading i stand by my claims that Trotsky was a stalwart defender of socialism and consequently never hesitated to combat the Nazi scum quite the contrary to Stalin who couldnt wait to sign a friendship pact and sell off steel and oil resources that the Nazis would use to butcher his own countrymen with.

"Read."

"Provocations in the service of the Nazis
To prepare for the Nazi war of aggression, Stalin and the Bolsheviks had to be overthrown. By defending this thesis, Trotsky became an instrument in the hands of the Hitlerites. Recently, during a meeting at the Free University of Brussels (ULB), a ranting Trotskyist yelled: `Those are lies! Trotsky always stated that he unconditionally defended the Soviet Union against imperialism.'"

Yes Comrade Trostky always did defend the opressed proletariat of the soviet union, in doing so he was opposed to the monopoly of power by the new burgeois. The 100 or so odd party members who controled society and alienated the worker from the fruits of his labor under the guise of the state instead of private ownership. After Lenin the USSR was in affect little more than an authoritarian capitalism. I stand by good comrade Trotsky in his disgust and hatred for such a monstrous aberation on the good red banner of communism.

"Yes, Trotsky always defended the Soviet Union, assuming that destroying the Bolshevik Party was the best preparation for defence! The essential point is that Trotsky was calling for an anti-Bolshevik insurrection, from which the Nazis, and not the handful of Trotskyists, would profit. Trotsky could well preach insurrection in the name of a `better defence' of the Soviet Union, but he clearly held an anti-Communist line and mobilized all the anti-socialist forces. There is no doubt that the Nazis were the first to appreciate this `better defence of the Soviet Union'."

More Stalinist lies and propaganda, Trotsky was opposed to the one party dictatorship that alienated the worker from the state and consequently from the fruits of his labor. Only when the state has been subordinated to the will of the worker (democracy) can state owned industry function as socialism.

"Here are Trotsky's exact words about `a better defence of the Soviet Union'.

`I cannot be ``for the USSR'' in general. I am for the working masses who created the USSR and against the bureaucracy which has usurped the gains of the revolution .... It remains the duty of a serious revolutionary to state quite frankly and openly: Stalin is preparing the defeat of the USSR.' "

Yes I couldnt have said it better myself, Stalins flagrant naivety when it came to Germany cost millions of soviet lives and if it wasnt for the stalwart defense mustered by the proletariat masses we would have no u.s.s.r today.


"Trotsky, A Political Dialogue, pp. 156, 158.


`I consider the main source of danger to the USSR in the present international situation to be Stalin and the oligarchy headed by him. An open struggle against them ... is inseparably connected for me with the defense of the USSR.' "

Yes Stalin was a monster who took the power and the fruits of ones labor out of the hands of the proletariat, in order to maintain the integrity of the good and noble principles of Marxism it was key for Stalin to be butchered and a socialist democracy put in his place.



"Trotsky, Stalin After the Finnish Experience (13 March 1940). Writings, vol. 12, p. 160.


`The old Bolshevik Party was transformed into a caste apparatus ....

`Against the imperialist enemy, we will defend the USSR with all our might. However, the gains of the October Revolution will serve the people only if it shows itself capable of acting against the Stalinist bureaucracy as it did previously against the Tsarist bureaucracy and the bourgeoisie.' "

Yes the reactionary bureaucracy of the u.s.s.r under stalin was nothing more than a new manifestation of the burgeois class, of the power and privelage in the hands of the few. A good marxist such as Trotsky always maintains the struggle against the burgeios no matter how it is perceived by brainwashed stalinist dogs such as yourself.

.

"Trotsky, Lettres aux travailleurs d'URSS (May 1940). La lutte, pp. 301--302.


`Only an uprising of the Soviet proletariat against the base tyranny of the new parasites can save what is still left over in the foundations of the society from the conquests of October .... In this sense and in this sense only, we defend the October Revolution from imperialism, fascist and democratic, from the Stalin bureaucracy, and from its ``hired friends''.'"

Yes at the time Trotsky wrote this there was still hope for the U.S.S.R and the temporary victories of the revolution. Unfortunately this hope soon faded away as the U.S.S.R was transformed into the mammoth bureacracy of perpetual hypocrisy history remembers today.

.

"Trotsky, The Twenty-First Anniversary (14 November 1938). Writings, vol. 11, p. 111.


From these citations, it is clear that the words `we support the USSR against imperialism' were pronounced by an anti-Communist who had to say them if he wanted to have the slightest chance of being listened to by the masses who were ready to defend the socialist régime to the bitter end. But only politically blind people could be confused by the meaning of this `defence'. In fact, this is how traitors and enemies prepare defence: `Stalin will betray, he is preparing defeat; so Stalin and the Bolshevik leadership have to be eliminated to defend the USSR.' Such propaganda perfectly suited the Nazis. "

Hell no it didnt you idiot Stalins regime was a close ally of Nazi Germany a new revolutionary government of the masses true to the principles of Marxism-Leninism would have been Germanys worst nightmare.

"Trotsky `defended' the Soviet Union, but not the Soviet Union of Stalin and the Bolshevik Party. He pretended to defend the Soviet Union `with all our might', i.e. with his few thousand followers in the USSR! Meanwhile, these few thousand marginals should have prepared an insurrection against Stalin and the Bolshevik Party! Good defence, to be sure."

Some of the more radical Americans have an intense dislike for those in the American Government however they have a powerful love and compassion for the American masses. What cant you understand about hating the corrupt and powerful few and loving the masses, these principles should be central to any Marxist-Leninist.

"Even a hardened anti-Communist such as Tokaev thought that Trotsky's writings played into the hands of the German aggressors. Tokaev was anti-Communist, but a partisan of British imperialism. At the beginning of the war, he made the following reflexions:

`The peoples of the U.S.S.R., guided by their elemental feelings in the face of mortal danger, had made themselves one with the Stalin régime .... The opposed forces had joined hands; and this was a spontaneous act: the average Soviet outlook was: `Side even with the Devil, to defeat Hitler.' ... opposition to Stalin was not only harmful to the international anti-Axis front but was also equivalent to antagonism to the Peoples of the U.S.S.R.' "

You now trust hardened anti-communists to speak for you? How much more naive will you get you blind fool. Of course a hardened anti-communist would hate Trotsky because he would know that Trostkyites were the closest thing to authentic desciples of Marx around.

.

"Tokaev, op. cit. , p. 188.


With the approach of World War II, Trotsky's main obsession, if not the only one, became the overthrow of the Bolshevik Party in the Soviet Union. His thesis was that of the world far-right: `whoever defends, directly or indirectly, Stalin and the Bolshevik Party, is the worst enemy of socialism'. Here are Trotsky's declarations:

`The reactionary bureaucracy must be and will be overthrown. The political revolution in the USSR is inevitable.' "

I dont think i have to say anymore about allowing the anti communists to speak for you it just points out how ridiculous your case truly is...

.

"Trotsky, Le gouvernement soviétique applique-t-il toujours les principes définis il y a vingt ans? (13 January 1938). La lutte, pp. 159--160.


`Only the overthrow of the Bonapartist Kremlin clique can make possible the regeneration of the military strength of the USSR .... The struggle against war, imperialism, and fascism demands a ruthless struggle against Stalinism, splotched with crimes. Whoever defends Stalinism directly or indirectly, whoever keeps silent about its betrayals or exaggerates its military strength is the worst enemy of the revolution, or socialism, of the oppressed peoples.'"

Yes Stalin was the ultimate burgeois, the ultimate tyrant, the ultimate Napoleon, and his overthrow was key to the emancipation of the masses

.

"Trotsky, A Fresh Lesson: After the ``Imperialist Peace'' at Munich (10 October 1938). Writings, vol. 11, p. 68.


When these lines were being written in 1938, a fierce class struggle was developing on the world scene, between fascism and Bolshevism. Only the most right-wing ideologues of French, British or U.S. imperialism or of fascism could defend Trotsky's thesis:

`Whoever defends Stalinism directly or indirectly ... is the worst enemy'.''

Stalinist dogs must be removed, never has a truer word been spoken


"Doesn't matter if he is a Jew, so were the infamous 'Blue Police' who took part in the genocide of their own people for material benefits. 'Speaking out against Fascism', given that Trotsky wanted workers who couldn't work thrown into concentration camps and for a worker who does go to work to have a rifle in his back I would say he was speaking for Fascism."

You are a hypocrite how dare you compare Trotsky to the blue police, under Stalin the monitoring of Workers and their attendance and work habits was stricter than ever, of course with all those millions of saboteurs and what not....



(Edited by RedComrade at 9:51 pm on Feb. 10, 2003)

[RedComrade]

"But more important than that is below.

''Trotskyism Revisited

I. Trotsky and the FBI

Red Youth

An article appeared in The Independent on the 25/11/1993 which gave details of a friend of Leon Trotsky's living in Mexico, Diego Rivera, who provided information to the FBI on anyone that he suspected of being GPU (Soviet intelligence) agents. His allegations were directed against anyone working in such organisations as the Mexican Communist Party (PCM) to Mexican trade unions. This in itself is interesting because, officially Rivera and Trotsky broke personal relations on May 31, 1940. Trotsky wrote in a letter to the chief of the Federal District in Mexico, 'I have nothing in common with the political activities of Diego Rivera. We broke our personal relations fifteen months ago.' (US National State archives; Trotsky Archive.)

But many people were mutual friends of the two, both of them worked in the same organisations such as the American Committee for the Defence of Leon Trotsky (ACDLT). Charles Curtiss was such a friend who sent Trotsky several reports of his meetings with Rivera: 'During my visit in Mexico, from July 4, 1938 to approximately July 15, 1939, I was in close association with Diego Rivera and Leon Trotsky.... I served as an intermediary between them,' (Writings of Leon Trotsky, 1939-40)"

So let me get this straight Trotsky is now responsible for the actions of his desciples and his friends? Well all be guilty of murder if this guilt by association starts to take hold in the real world. It is very fortunate brainwashed zealots such as yourself hold no power in the real world.

"Trotsky of course knew of this, thus helping Rivera in supplying information to the FBI.

To return to the article in The independent, a Professor William Chase of the University of Pittsburgh was quoted at the end stating that he has 'concrete information' to prove that Trotsky was an FBI informant. Red Youth has subsequently obtained this information (the source relevant to this particular revelation is US State archives - RG 84 or from Prof. Chase himself. Any other evidence will be referred to after the quotation).

According to the Professor, the information Trotsky provided to the FBI was a means to obtain a US visa. But as the Professor points out, 'By providing the US Consulate with information about common enemies, be they Mexican or American communists or Soviet agents, Trotsky hoped to prove his value to a government that had no desire to grant him a visa.'"

Trotsky was employing tactics taught to him by the best your glorious comrade Stalin. The ruthless cutthroat tactics you claim Trotsky employed are questionable but what is not questionable is that Stalin employed much worse cutthroat backstabbings in his rise to power. Much as the countries in 1984 are constantly warring against their past allies Stalin was constantly allying with people only to betray them once they had stopped being useful. Examples are Bukharin who was Stalins right hand man in defeating Trotsky and Zinoviev and Kamenev all were once the immediate entourage of Stalin. All were his victims once they had stopped being useful.

"Trotsky's hysterical allegations were directed against anyone who might share sympathies with the USSR under Stalin. In America the ACDLT campaigned for the asylum of Trotsky in the US. At the time of the World Congress Against War and Fascism and the Latin American Labour Congress, Trotsky asked his supporters to 'mail as soon as possible known names of congress delegates who are GPU agents'. Prof. Chase admits himself the ridiculous nature of these allegations which leads one to think of the number of honest proletarian and democratic persons whose names who were supplied to the FBI, 'Trotsky's accusations that liberals and radicals who did not share his views on certain issues were Stalinists or GPU agents further diminished his support in the US.'"

Trotsky confronted those mindless Stalinists who were out to kill him. It is unfortunate more of these putrid communist heretics were not rooted out; perhaps if more had been reprimanded Comrade Trotsky would have not suffered his tragic fate at the hands of the vicioius Stalinist dog. If only he had not been so selfless and done more to keep himself alive. He showed 10x the merit of Stalin. Those he turned in were few and doubtlessly deserved it and are nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands Stalin purged to secure his safety. The hypocrisy of all this coming from a Stalinist is truly brillant...

"But there is more. With this array of high-flown allegations Trotsky accepted an invitation to appear in front of the 'Dies Committee'. This is otherwise known as the US Congress House Un-American Activities Committee. It was linked to overtly fascist figures, conducted anti-democratic witch-hunts and played a leading role in passing many anti-labour laws. Such was the anti-fascist and proletarian stance of Trotsky (fortunately, Trotsky never appeared on this committee because he never got a visa, but as we shall see he passed on information to the US government by other means). Now we come to the central point of this Red Youth exclusive: Trotsky's courtship of the FBI:

'In June [1940], Robert McGregor of the [US] Consulate met with Trotsky in his home... he met again with Trotsky on 13 July... Trotsky told McGregor in detail of the allegations and evidence he had compiled... He gave to McGregor the names of Mexican publications, political and labour leaders, and government officials allegedly associated with the PCM [Mexico and the USSR were the only countries in the world to materially support the fight against Franco's Fascism in the Spanish Civil War 1936-39]. He charged that one of the Comintern's [the Communist international's] leading agents, Carlos Contreras served on the PCM Directing Committee. He also discussed the alleged efforts of Narciso Bassols, former Mexican Ambassador to France, whom Trotsky claimed was a Soviet agent, to get him deported from Mexico.'

'Upon receipt, the State Department transmitted McGregor's memo to the FBI.

'...The Information, while not new, responded to both bodies' concerns.'

Well, there you have it. The outwardly anti-communist and anti-democratic veneer of the US was shared by Trotsky."

Were did you learn of this ? Doubtlessly in a horribly biased publication of insane zealot fanatics such as yourself who have sold their souls at the leadership cult just as you have done... Red youth more like Brain dead youth if you ask me, communists in name only, sick zealots in mind...

"While the whole world was facing the onslaught of fascist forces, when the USSR with the guidance of the communist party and comrade Joseph Stalin were facing this attack single-handedly on the behalf of all progressive humanity, when the colonies of imperialism were striving for national liberation, Trotsky and his vile organisations were aiding reaction every-where and still play their significant part in this today. While Red Youth prints this new evidence, it is of no surprise to us or anyone at all acquainted with the role of Trotskyism, that Trotskyism is truly the agent of the ruling class within the ranks of the working class and is used to full advantage by our enemies to this day as much as in the past. 'Overnight many of the older anti-Bolshevik crusaders abandoned their former pro-Czarist and openly counter-revolutionary line, and adopted the new, streamlined Trotskyite device of attacking the Russian Revolution 'from the left'. In the following years it became an accepted thing for a Lord Rothermere or a William Randolph Hearst to accuse Josef Stalin of 'betraying the revolution' [one can still see this as we are taught that it was obvious that Trotsky was the natural successor to Lenin in our schools and have to read the books of another state informer and Trotskyist - George Orwell]...."

George Orwell is one of the most brillant and respected men of the last centurty. Not only is his literary genius famous but also his convictions for socialism and justice. He put his life on the line confronting fascists in Spain something Stalin never did learn your history you filthy crock of 50 year old rhetoric you dirty stalinist you!

"'Adolf Hitler read Trotsky's autobiography as soon as it was published. Hitler's biographer, Konrad Heiden, tells in 'Der Fuehrer' how the Nazi leader surprised a circle of his friends in 1930 by bursting into rapturous praise of Trotsky's book' ('The Great Conspiracy Against Russia,' Kahn and Sayers)."

FDR was a great admirer of Stalin, does this somehow indite Stalin as a burgeois capitalist?

"But to be fair, Trotsky should be left to speak for himself. 'The wretched squabbling systematically provoked by Lenin, that old hand at the game, that professional exploiter of all that is backward in the Russian labour movement, seems like a senseless obsession.... The entire edifice of Leninism Is built on lies and falsification and bears within itself the poisonous elements of its own decay. '(Letter to Chkeidze 1913)"

With each statement you confirm your perverted hate of Marxist-Leninism and true social justice




"II. On the Use of Trotskyists as Japanese Spies in China

Mao Zedong

Mao Zedong, the Secretary of the Communist Party of China, states about the cooperation of the Japanese with the Trotskyists: 'only a short while ago in one of the divisions of the Eighth Revolutionary Peoples' Army, a man by the name of Yu Shih was exposed as a member of the Shanghai Trotskyist organisation. The Japanese had sent him there from Shanghai so that he could do espionage work in the Eighth Army and carry out sabotage work.

'In the central districts of Hebei the Trotskyists organised a 'Partisan-Company' on the direct instructions of the Japanese headquarters and called it a 'Second Section of the Eighth Army'. In March the two battalions of this company organised a mutiny but these bandits were surrounded by the Eighth Army and disarmed. In the Border Region such people are arrested by the peasant self-defence units which carry out a bitter struggle against traitors and spies.

'Trotskyist agents are being sent to the Border Regions where they systematically apply all methods in their sabotage work against the cooperation of the Kuomintang and the Communist Party. They try to destroy the morale of the soldiers of the Eighth Army, the students and the people of the Border Regions. They try to incite people against the United Front, against the Central Government, against the war of independence, against Marshal Chiang Kaishek.'

In an interview with the Soviet journalist, R. Carmen who is at present in China, Mao, who is recognized by the Japanese as the best strategist in China, declared that the attempts of the reactionary English and other politicians to convince China to renounce its plans are destined to be shattered. 'China is not only determined to beat the Japanese but also to strengthen the National and United Front and to extend it. Only very few people want to have an understanding with the Japanese and fight against the Central Anti-Japanese Government and the United Front... If we do not destroy these people then it will be difficult to be victorious against the Japanese. But the Chinese people - and with them the Communists, the progressive elements in the Kuomintang and the other parties - are determined to carry out the struggle to a victorious conclusion.'"

Since when is Trotsky responsible for the actions of men halfway across the world who he had never met in his life. Men calling themselves Christians have done horrible things men calling themselves Trotskyites have done horrible things it says nothing about their ideological founders...








"An 'alliance' ? Please tell me when Hitler and Stalin were ever allies. From a Marxist point of view is it not good that the Imperialists fight eachother? Marx and Lenin had predicted that would happen and the pact insured that the Imperialists did just that when the alternative was they would all unite against socialism in the USSR. Trotsky was crusading against the Soveit Union yes, but he colloborated with Nazism in Germany, the FBI and Imperial Japan. Not to mention his supporters acting as Fascist agents for Franco and Hitler in Spain."

Gladly in 1940 the Soviets and the Nazis were friends and allies trade partners and mutual friends, hell they even trained their armies in each others countrys/facilities, as for trotskyists being fascist agents in Spain that is a joke brigades of Trotskyist volunteers gave their lives in the fight against fascism in Spain. It would serve you well to read homage to catalonia by orwell. Once again the stalinist makes wild acust acusations with no basis in fact or logic..

[Cassius Clay]

''While I know this is 180 degrees from the truth i'm afraid I can't say the same for you comrade. Your speech and posts consistently testify to your blind obedience and acceptance of everything Stalin did. Your blind faith and naivety is enough to make even a fundamentalist christian cringe you putrid perverter of Marxist-Leninism''

Quite frankly this is boring old rhectoric without no substance.

''For the hundredth time state what exactly those sources are! tell me were I can find them! You actually excpect the soviet authorities would give a-political foreginers a glimpse at what was really going on in the u.s.s.r? Your naivety never ceases to amaze me Clay.''

Simple any sources that have credibility simply do not back up your Trotskite lies. THEY DO NOT EXIST. For the two example's I gave sabotage and the Moscow Trials, that is not from the soviet archives. But from eye-witness a-political accounts.

''I am not a history student merely a 14 year old kid on a mission for the truth. While you may try and use my age here to discredit me I am not ashamed of my youth and any reasonable opponent will not judge me by it. I have not been brainwashed or I would have never taken in an interest in Marxist-Leninism.''

Well I for one wouldn't hold your age against you, why you felt the need to mention it I don't know, oh well.

''Ahh here you go twisting my words again, never once have i said that Stalin held all of the power. Out of necessity some power was left in the hands of others. However he did maintain a gross abusive monopoly on the power and for a man who claimed to be in favor of an ideology for the masses he certainly did very little to allow them a voice and a say in government affairs.''

Ignorance here is NO EXCUSE, you have nothing to back up the above claim, nothing. No 'Say in government affairs' this is why working class membership to the party increased from 55% to 63% in the 1930's? You ignore all the FACTS and continue with typhical Trotskyite rubbish.

''After reading i stand by my claims that Trotsky was a stalwart defender of socialism and consequently never hesitated to combat the Nazi scum quite the contrary to Stalin who couldnt wait to sign a friendship pact and sell off steel and oil resources that the Nazis would use to butcher his own countrymen with.''

Can you not see though how fanatical Trotsky was in his hatred of the Soviet Union? The man thought the only way to destroy the Fascism was to have a civil war in the Socialist (and Trotsky himself said it would cost ten times the number of lifes lost in the Civil War to overtrow Socialism in the USSR) Soviet Union.

And I really think you need to read up on Georgi Dmitrov and the Comintern's policy of fighting Fascism throughout the 1930's and 40's.

''Yes Comrade Trostky always did defend the opressed proletariat of the soviet union,''

So why then did Trotsky get less than 6,000 votes out of over 725,000 cast in a fair and secret election in December 1927? Oh no on the contray it wasn't fair, Trotskyites led by Trotsky and Zinoviev attempted to ransack party buildings in Leningrad the previous month.

''in doing so he was opposed to the monopoly of power by the new burgeois. The 100 or so odd party members who controled society and alienated the worker from the fruits of his labor under the guise of the state instead of private ownership. After Lenin the USSR was in affect little more than an authoritarian capitalism. I stand by good comrade Trotsky in his disgust and hatred for such a monstrous aberation on the good red banner of communism.''

Ofcourse the fact that when Stalin died he didn't have even a 100 roubles to his name while Trotsky sold his 'memoirs' to English Broadsheets for 75.000 pounds (which is god knows what today) means nothing to you. The fact that their were no millionaires in the USSR in 1953 yet after a former Trotskyite took over there were over 13,000 again means nothing.

Apart from Trotsky and Trotskyite accounts (the people who have proven to of produced forgeries and lies) what do you base your opinion on the USSR under Stalin on? 'Authoritarian State Capitalism' name me one similarity between the PRC in 2003 and the USSR between 1930 and 53? There are none. 'Alieniated the worker' this is why tens of millions mourned when Stalin died is it? This is why after Khruschev's revisionsism and in effect capitalist reforms and importantly attack on Stalin was met by prolertariat uprisings in Georgia, Russia and the Ukraine?


''More Stalinist lies and propaganda, Trotsky was opposed to the one party dictatorship that alienated the worker from the state and consequently from the fruits of his labor. Only when the state has been subordinated to the will of the worker (democracy) can state owned industry function as socialism.''

LOL, just what part of Trotsky's words do you not understand.

''the working class...must be thrown here and there, appointed, commanded just like soldiers. Deserters from labour ought to be formed into punitive battalions or put into concentration camps'

and

'The unions should discipline the workers and teach them to place the interests of production above their own needs and demands.'

Let's also see what Lenin had to say about this.

In December 1919, Trotsky proposed the `militarization of economic life' and wanted to mobilize the workers using methods he had applied for leading the army. With this line, the railroad workers were mobilized under military discipline. A wave of protests passed through the union movement. Lenin declared that Trotsky committed errors that endangered the dictatorship of the proletariat: by his bureaucratic harassment of the unions, he risked separating the Party from the masses.

.

V. I. Lenin, The Trade Unions, the Present Situation, and Trotsky's Mistakes (30 December 1920). Collected Works (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1960--1970), vol. 32, pp. 19--42.


Trotsky's outrageous individualism, his open disdain for Bolshevik cadres, his authoritarian style of leadership and his taste for military discipline frightened many Party cadres. They thought that Trotsky could well play the rôle of a Napoléon Bonaparte, effecting a coup d'état and setting up a counter-revolutionary authoritarian régime. ''

So what 'Redcomrade' is so difficult to see here. As you can see Trotsky hardly believed in any form of 'democracy'.


''Yes I couldnt have said it better myself, Stalins flagrant naivety when it came to Germany cost millions of soviet lives and if it wasnt for the stalwart defense mustered by the proletariat masses we would have no u.s.s.r today.''

Erm we don't have any USSR today. 'By the prolertariat masses' you mean the soldiers who fought so hard for the defence of what they had created under Stalin and in some cases died with his name on their lips.

''Yes Stalin was a monster who took the power and the fruits of ones labor out of the hands of the proletariat, in order to maintain the integrity of the good and noble principles of Marxism it was key for Stalin to be butchered and a socialist democracy put in his place.''

You seem to deny/ignore the fact that Trotsky is openly saying that his idea of 'defence' of the Soviet Union is to overthrow the government. 'Socialist democracy' why put one in place when they allready have it? If you would like to name me a state where workers would walk into their factory managers office and demand their resigantion and actually get it then please do? This happened in the USSR under Stalin and most certainly would NOT of happened under Trotsky's 'Military discipline'

''Yes the reactionary bureaucracy of the u.s.s.r under stalin was nothing more than a new manifestation of the burgeois class, of the power and privelage in the hands of the few. A good marxist such as Trotsky always maintains the struggle against the burgeios no matter how it is perceived by brainwashed stalinist dogs such as yourself.''

You call me 'brainwashed' when throughout this entire post you can't stop mimicing what Trotsky said. Although this make's it quite apparent that you base your entire opinion on the USSR on that of Trotsky.


''Yes at the time Trotsky wrote this there was still hope for the U.S.S.R and the temporary victories of the revolution. Unfortunately this hope soon faded away as the U.S.S.R was transformed into the mammoth bureacracy of perpetual hypocrisy history remembers today.''

Trotsky openly calls for a uprising of the Soviet prolertariat when Fascist armies are engulfing Europe. It doesn't take a genius to see that Trotsky was nothing more than a bitter, fanatical old man whom put his fight against a supposed 'Evil Stalinist Beurcracy' above everything and anything else.

''Hell no it didnt you idiot Stalins regime was a close ally of Nazi Germany a new revolutionary government of the masses true to the principles of Marxism-Leninism would have been Germanys worst nightmare.''

First of all don't call me an 'idiot' and second of all don't ignroe the evidence when it is presented to you.


''Some of the more radical Americans have an intense dislike for those in the American Government however they have a powerful love and compassion for the American masses. What cant you understand about hating the corrupt and powerful few and loving the masses, these principles should be central to any Marxist-Leninist.''

Sigh, the man calls for a uprising and had plans for a coup. Oh and Trotsky really loved the 'masses' when he wanted them put under 'Military discipline' for the rest of their lifes.

''You now trust hardened anti-communists to speak for you? How much more naive will you get you blind fool. Of course a hardened anti-communist would hate Trotsky because he would know that Trostkyites were the closest thing to authentic desciples of Marx around.''

Don't call me a 'fool'. If you actually read that quote you will see it is Anti-Stalin aswell, see 'Side with the Devil to defeat Hitler', while ofcourse this theory is wrong it never the less shows us that the Soviet people were united behind Stalin and the Soviet government, for whatever reasons.

As for the rest of that part of your post, LOL. That's why Trotsky is hailed throughout the western world as a 'Genius' 'Lenin's natural successor' and 'Sole Creator of the Red Army'? We are taught all this in schools and the right-wing admire the man.

''I dont think i have to say anymore about allowing the anti communists to speak for you it just points out how ridiculous your case truly is...''

A source based on mostly Trotsky's quotes himself, anybody can see that this 'right -wing' person's opinion is entirely justified and correct.

''Yes Stalin was the ultimate burgeois, the ultimate tyrant, the ultimate Napoleon, and his overthrow was key to the emancipation of the masses''

Apart from Trotsky you have very little to back this up. What part of that don't you understand? Trotsky clearly sais that the best way to go about fighting Fascism, Imperialism and Capitalism is to overthrow Stalinism, considering Trotsky himself said that the USSR was Socialist it is quite clear what he meant and how he had become a tool of every anti-Communist in the world. It's also clear how fanatical Trotsky was.


''Stalinist dogs must be removed, never has a truer word been spoken''

And you call me 'brainwashed' and my belief in Stalin is supposedly like that of a christian's belief in God. Anybody else see the hyprocisy? Yeah that's right the best way to go about fighting Fascism is to kill every Communist who ever improved anybody's life through revolutions from the Korean Penisular to Berlin.

''You are a hypocrite how dare you compare Trotsky to the blue police,''

Okay I won't, unlike the people who joined the blue police Trotsky's life was not directly threatened by the Nazis, and yet he still collobarated with them.

''under Stalin the monitoring of Workers and their attendance and work habits was stricter than ever, of course with all those millions of saboteurs and what not....''

Why were you there? Ofcourse suffice to say it would of been a paradise under 'Military Discipline' and 'Labor Armies'.





(Edited by RedComrade at 9:51 pm on Feb. 10, 2003)
[/quote]

[Cassius Clay]

''So let me get this straight Trotsky is now responsible for the actions of his desciples and his friends? Well all be guilty of murder if this guilt by association starts to take hold in the real world. It is very fortunate brainwashed zealots such as yourself hold no power in the real world.''

Well if they are 'Disciples' then yes, as for freinds it just shows us what sought of people who he kept company with and who admired him.

''Trotsky was employing tactics taught to him by the best your glorious comrade Stalin. The ruthless cutthroat tactics you claim Trotsky employed are questionable but what is not questionable is that Stalin employed much worse cutthroat backstabbings in his rise to power. Much as the countries in 1984 are constantly warring against their past allies Stalin was constantly allying with people only to betray them once they had stopped being useful. Examples are Bukharin who was Stalins right hand man in defeating Trotsky and Zinoviev and Kamenev all were once the immediate entourage of Stalin. All were his victims once they had stopped being useful.''

Well it's good to see you atleast admit that Trotsky used 'Cutthroat tactics'. As for the rest of your post, do you have any idea what wen't on in the 20's in the Soviet Union. Stalin never allied with Bakhurin for any ideological reason, nor out of opportunism. On the contray in 1925 he wrote to Bakhurin.

'The slogan ''Enrich yourself'' is NOT ours'.

''Trotsky confronted those mindless Stalinists who were out to kill him. It is unfortunate more of these putrid communist heretics were not rooted out; perhaps if more had been reprimanded Comrade Trotsky would have not suffered his tragic fate at the hands of the vicioius Stalinist dog. If only he had not been so selfless and done more to keep himself alive. He showed 10x the merit of Stalin. Those he turned in were few and doubtlessly deserved it and are nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands Stalin purged to secure his safety. The hypocrisy of all this coming from a Stalinist is truly brillant...''

So some guy serving at the American embassy is ofcourse a 'Evil Stalinist'? The rest of your post makes it quite clear you are literally a fantatic just like Trotsky .


''Were did you learn of this ? Doubtlessly in a horribly biased publication of insane zealot fanatics such as yourself who have sold their souls at the leadership cult just as you have done... Red youth more like Brain dead youth if you ask me, communists in name only, sick zealots in mind...''

Either come up with some evidence proving all that was written there wrong and a forgery or admit that Trotsky was wrong and had became a tool of the greatest Capitalists of all, the U$A. It's all there written in black and white based on research, archives and FACTS.

''George Orwell is one of the most brillant and respected men of the last centurty. Not only is his literary genius famous but also his convictions for socialism and justice. He put his life on the line confronting fascists in Spain something Stalin never did learn your history you filthy crock of 50 year old rhetoric you dirty stalinist you!''

Sigh, I guess there's just no getting through to some people. George Orwell became a state-informer for MI5 for cyring out loud, he may of been a talented writer but so was Geobbels. As for Stalin never putting his life on the line, while Trotsky was sitting in New York cafe's critiscing everything Lenin and the Bolsheviks did Stalin was risking imprisoment and a execution attempting to create worker's militancy throughout the opprressed lands of the Russian Empire.

''FDR was a great admirer of Stalin, does this somehow indite Stalin as a burgeois capitalist?''

Well I'm not sure FDR ever 'admired' Stalin, the U$ government would of loved to see the Soviets ruined by the Nazis and did'nt really do alot to prevent that from happening. Ofcourse FDR never made a similar remark about Stalin that Hitler did about Trotsky. Not to mention the circumstances being completly different. Stalin and FDR being allies in fight against Fascism while Trotsky and Hitler. Well what were they doing? Oh yeah fight against 'Stalinist dogs'.

''With each statement you confirm your perverted hate of Marxist-Leninism and true social justice''

Erm Trotsky wrote that.



''Since when is Trotsky responsible for the actions of men halfway across the world who he had never met in his life. Men calling themselves Christians have done horrible things men calling themselves Trotskyites have done horrible things it says nothing about their ideological founders...''

The fact that Trotsky was still alive and well, the fact that these people took him as their ideological master and did what they did and ofcourse the fact that Trotsky could of simply told them to stop and they would of. Even if they continued atleast Trotsky would of distanced himself from their crimes. But ofcourse the complete opposite is true.

Read.

''Since Trotsky sought power in the Soviet Union, he was hoping
for imperialists to knock Stalin out. To this end he
instigated Japanese imperalism, and this is RECORDED IN
TROTSKY'S OWN PUBLISHED WRITINGS.

How did he get away with this? He told his supporters
that Japan was imperialist and hence going to attack
the Soviet Union anyway. As we can imagine now, it kinda
sounded reasonable to the rank-and-file Trots of the
time.

He warms up by revealing Soviet spying techniques to the whole world,
which is an example of the kind of thing why the U.S. House Un-American
Activities Committee invited him for testimony, and as was fully admitted
by him. (The Writings of Leon Trotsky: 1939-40, NY: Merit Publishers, p.
125.)

In his "The Tanaka Memorial" article in a section titled
"Last Articles and Letters," Trotsky has sections called
"Early Soviet Advantages in Intelligence Work" and
"Why I can Verify It's Authenticity." The "it" being
referred to is a Japanese government memo on its upcoming
war plans. Then Trotsky reveals "How the Document Was
Secured." He goes right into the details of
photography and agent work. That's what he considered
defending the Soviet Union, revealing Soviet intelligence
methods to the imperialists.

But it doesn't stop there. He admits that Stalin doesn't
reveal the Tanaka Memorial document, because Stalin does
not want "to provoke Tokio." (Ibid., p. 113)

Next he admits he can't be sure that he isn't revealing
certain agents to the Japanese, because he's not sure
if they are in Japan still. (Ibid.)

Finally, for the usual lack of strategic acuity demonstrated
by Trotsky after Lenin died, we have the following:
"It is more than likely that this time too Moscow
does not wish to cause any annoyances to Tokio in view
of the negotiations now under way in the hope of
reaching a more stable and lasting agreement. All these
considerations, however, recede to the background
as the world war spreads its concentric circles ever wider."
(Ibid.) Trotsky was fond of saying Stalin was too
cautious and conservative and would blow the war that
way. Trotsky proved wrong.

So above Trotsky is admitting his revelations could
cause difficulties for Soviet peace negotiations
with Japan in 1940. Trotskyists at the time
swallowed Trotsky's leadership whole, because
he was very articulate and attractive to those
of wishful minds. Trotskyists imagined
Trotsky's revelations about Soviet intelligence
and the provocations against Japan were
a good idea, because Trotsky knew how to
defend the Soviet Union better than Stalin
did anyway. It was arrogant sectarianism
that played into imperialist hands again and
again.

However what is really disgusting at a level
about ten times more than anything else is that even once Stalin
proved Trotsky wrong, the Trotskyists still
cling to his traitorous anti-communism in the name
of Marxism. Stalin did succeed in putting aside the
war with Japan contrary to Trotsky's predictions,
and long enough that Stalin's Soviet Union only had to enter
the war against Japan at the very end when it was already
basically over--after the Soviets had won the war with
Germany.''


''Gladly in 1940 the Soviets and the Nazis were friends and allies trade partners and mutual friends, hell they even trained their armies in each others countrys/facilities,''

No they didn't.

''as for trotskyists being fascist agents in Spain that is a joke brigades of Trotskyist volunteers gave their lives in the fight against fascism in Spain.''

This is why after the fighting in Barcelona between Trotskyites and Communists the below happened?

''On May 11, 5 days after the fighting began, Faupel, Hitler's ambassador to Franco, wrote:

"Concerning the disorders in Barcelona, Franco has told me that the street fighting was provoked by his agents. Nicholas Franco has confirmed this report, informing me that they have a total of 13 agents in Barcelona. Some time ago one of them had reported that the tension between Anarchists and Communists in Barcelona was so great that it could well end in street fighting. The Generalissimo told me that at first he doubted this agent's reports, but later they were confirmed by other agents. Ordinarily he didn't intend to take advantage of the possibility until military operations had been established in Catalonia. But since the Reds had recently attacked Teruel to aid the Government of Euzcadi (the Basque provinces), he thought the time was right for the outbreak of disorders in Barcelona. In fact, a few days after he had received the order, the agent in question with three or four of this men, succeeded in provoking shooting in the streets which later led to the desired results."(86)

Soon after the May fighting, a number of Franco agents were caught in Barcelona, and implicated Nin--perhaps for their own reasons.''

''It would serve you well to read homage to catalonia by orwell. Once again the stalinist makes wild acust acusations with no basis in fact or logic..''

That's right all of the above is a 'Stalinist Falsification of History' and Trotsky was a real Marxist who only fought for truth and justice.

[Smoking Frog II]

Quote: from Mazdak on 4:57 pm on Feb. 9, 2003
Labor camps are not evil. Prisons are evil.

Prisons make those who commit no crimes support those who commit crimes with their tax money.

Labor camps mean that the criminals pay for themselves. Labor camps are a punishment, prison is not. Labor camps actually make the criminals do something. And something productive at that. What do prisons do? Besides drain the economy and take tax money?


yeah mazdak, you're right. Down with prison. We want labour.

But only put in REAL criminals.

[RedComrade]

"LOL, just what part of Trotsky's words do you not understand.

''the working class...must be thrown here and there, appointed, commanded just like soldiers. Deserters from labour ought to be formed into punitive battalions or put into concentration camps'

and

'The unions should discipline the workers and teach them to place the interests of production above their own needs and demands.' "

I will respond to the rest of your post when i have more time but i couldnt help laughing out loud when i saw you cite these qoutes in an attempt to somehow degrade Trotsky. If you see his plans for militant labour armies as bad than you are contradicting Marx and Engels and are not a Marxist friend. You are a revisionist Stalinist pig which if truth be told you are regardless. Perhaps you have not read "the Principles of Communism" but allow me to refresh you. In it Engels lays down the formation of militant labour armies as a must for the formation of a communist society. When he said labour army he meant it and all of the discipline and militancy of a normal army. Since when does a Stalinist give a damn about the methods or how harsh they are anyway thats preety damned hypocritical Stalin cared about the end product not the means of production as he demonstrated time and time again in his ruthless campaigns of terror in his quest for collectivization and industrialization. The original point though is Trotsky wasnt saying anything new his words were almost a direct qoutation of Marx and Engels and reflected their sentiments entirely... Do you call yourself a Marxist??

[Cassius Clay]

''I will respond to the rest of your post when i have more time but i couldnt help laughing out loud when i saw you cite these qoutes in an attempt to somehow degrade Trotsky. If you see his plans for militant labour armies as bad than you are contradicting Marx and Engels and are not a Marxist friend. You are a revisionist Stalinist pig which if truth be told you are regardless. Perhaps you have not read "the Principles of Communism" but allow me to refresh you. In it Engels lays down the formation of militant labour armies as a must for the formation of a communist society. When he said labour army he meant it and all of the discipline and militancy of a normal army. Since when does a Stalinist give a damn about the methods or how harsh they are anyway thats preety damned hypocritical Stalin cared about the end product not the means of production as he demonstrated time and time again in his ruthless campaigns of terror in his quest for collectivization and industrialization. The original point though is Trotsky wasnt saying anything new his words were almost a direct qoutation of Marx and Engels and reflected their sentiments entirely... Do you call yourself a Marxist??''

'A direct quotation' please provide a quote with similar language and more importanly a example of them putting it into practice (like Trotsky tried to do) by Marx or Engels. Even if they did, it still doesn't make it suddenly any better. Marx and Engels aren't gods. What is interesting though is that unlike other Trotskyites who see those quotes you haven't ignored them or tried to pass them of as forgeries but you actually defend them. As I've said before no difference between Fascism and Trotskyism.

'We are dedicated to Socialism and Democracy' Zhdanov 1947. This was a statement by a close freind of Stalin's and a member of the Politburo from the mid 1930's to his death in 1948. I fail to see any hyprocrisy on behalf of a 'Stalinist' in complaining against Trotsky's militarism. Lenin himself despised it and rightly described it as 'Bonarpartism'.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from Smoking Frog II on 1:51 pm on Feb. 11, 2003

Quote: from Mazdak on 4:57 pm on Feb. 9, 2003
Labor camps are not evil. Prisons are evil.

Prisons make those who commit no crimes support those who commit crimes with their tax money.

Labor camps mean that the criminals pay for themselves. Labor camps are a punishment, prison is not. Labor camps actually make the criminals do something. And something productive at that. What do prisons do? Besides drain the economy and take tax money?


yeah mazdak, you're right. Down with prison. We want labour.

But only put in REAL criminals.


Define a "real" prisoner as opposed to a "fake" prisoner.

[RedComrade]

"'A direct quotation' please provide a quote with similar language and more importanly a example of them putting it into practice (like Trotsky tried to do) by Marx or Engels. Even if they did, it still doesn't make it suddenly any better. Marx and Engels aren't gods. What is interesting though is that unlike other Trotskyites who see those quotes you haven't ignored them or tried to pass them of as forgeries but you actually defend them. As I've said before no difference between Fascism and Trotskyism.

'We are dedicated to Socialism and Democracy' Zhdanov 1947. This was a statement by a close freind of Stalin's and a member of the Politburo from the mid 1930's to his death in 1948. I fail to see any hyprocrisy on behalf of a 'Stalinist' in complaining against Trotsky's militarism. Lenin himself despised it and rightly described it as 'Bonarpartism'. "

"(v) An equal obligation on all members of society to work until such time as private property has been completely abolished. Formation of industrial armies, especially for agriculture"- Frederick Engels, The Principles of Communism

Can't you see Trotsky was just putting Marx and Engels wishes into action at the time Trotsky made those comments the Civil War was raging fiercly. When we think of the civil war to often we think soley of the military conflict. This is were you are wrong friend the war was much more serious, the war was a marxist war and the battlefield was the economy. The disciplined labor brigades were the economic armies of socialism and were based on the wishes of Marx. Trotsky understood this and understood the necessity of disciplined and efficient economic forces to combat capitalism. Marx and Engels never put shit to practice they were theorists not government rulers! The last time I checked Marx and Engels never put anything into affect because they were never in a position to do so. You are correct we must avoid the cult of leadership hardcore Stalinists or Trotskyists tend to fall into we must even refrain from worshipping the doctrines of Marx. However if you do call yourself a Marxist then it is hypocritical of you to contradict one of the key pillars of Marxists visions for a communist society. If you do you are a revisionist and a follower of Stalin but not Marx. "Socialism is to democracy as water is to fish"- Leon Trotsky, people can say this or that its their acitons that count i dont give a damn what Zhadanov says ill judge him by his actions. Lenin was also full of pleasant things to say about comrade Stalin, I think you would do well to read Lenin's testament which in later years of Stalins career was banned along with the third volume of collected works of Lenin because of its contradictory nature to Stalinism. Furthermore I would much rather contradict Lenin (me) then contradict Marx (you). It is hard to be a Leninist without being a Marxist and as long as you are opposed to Labour Armies you are not a Marxist in the orthodox since of the word. Is this bad to not be a Marxist? Of course not but it is hypocritical of you to profess something that your beleifs directly contradict...

[Cassius Clay]

"An equal obligation on all members of society to work until such time as private property has been completely abolished. Formation of industrial armies, especially for agriculture"- Frederick Engels, The Principles of Communism''

I asked for a similar quote, compare the above to what Trotsky said. There is no comparision, except Industrial armies. Trotsky speaks of throwing workers into concentration camps, Engles speaks of the need for everybody to work.

As for the rest of your post, well where do I start.

No Trotsky wasn't 'putting Mrax and Engle's ideas into practice'. Trotsky came up with his 'Labor Armies' in 1920 and 1921, when the civil War was almost over. And precisly what role did a bunch of railway workers play in the importance of the civil war?

No it wasn't based on the wishes of Marx, if it was then surely Trotsky wouldn't of got replaced as War Commisar because of the policies he tried to put into practice.

Well I must admit that I'm shocked to actually meet a Trotskyite who understands and actually admits to understanding the theory of Trotskyism. Typhical ultra-leftist rubbish. Why don't you go of to Cambodia to join the Khmer Rouge geurrilla's?

As for Marx and Engels never putting anything into practice, Engels was a rich Capitalist. If he had wanted to he could of easily treated his workers like or infact much worse than even Trotsky proposed in 1920, but by all accounts he was the complete opposite.

Your right actions do speak louder than words.

'In December 1919, Trotsky proposed the `militarization of economic life' and wanted to mobilize the workers using methods he had applied for leading the army. With this line, the railroad workers were mobilized under military discipline. A wave of protests passed through the union movement. Lenin declared that Trotsky committed errors that endangered the dictatorship of the proletariat: by his bureaucratic harassment of the unions, he risked separating the Party from the masses.

.

V. I. Lenin, The Trade Unions, the Present Situation, and Trotsky's Mistakes (30 December 1920). Collected Works (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1960--1970), vol. 32, pp. 19--42.


Trotsky's outrageous individualism, his open disdain for Bolshevik cadres, his authoritarian style of leadership and his taste for military discipline frightened many Party cadres. They thought that Trotsky could well play the rôle of a Napoléon Bonaparte, effecting a coup d'état and setting up a counter-revolutionary authoritarian régime. ''

And I base Zhdanov on his actions to.

As for Lenin's 'will' (no will did exist Trotsky admitted as much in 1925) Lenin calls Stalin 'rude' and isn't sure whether Stalin is up to job of GS of the party. Big deal.


Anyway enough with this discussion, answer the two previous posts and respond to the FACTS raised there.

[thursday night]

"Can't you see Trotsky was just putting Marx and Engels wishes into action"

As far as I know, Marx and Engels never said there would be a global instant revolution, as the revisionist Trotsky stated.

This is an important thread, it really puts perspective on the issue of Stalin.

[Cassius Clay]

Yes thankyou Comrade Thursday, this thread is indeed important as it shows the true nature of Trotskyism and in particular Trotsky himself whose crimes are conviently ignored by the west. Wonder why that is?

[RedComrade]

"Simple any sources that have credibility simply do not back up your Trotskite lies. THEY DO NOT EXIST. For the two example's I gave sabotage and the Moscow Trials, that is not from the soviet archives. But from eye-witness a-political accounts. "

Im afraid reality testifies against you Stalinist, not only do the majority of socialist sources today concede Stalin's counterrevolutionary authoritarian nature but also every other source excluding Stalinists. You have told me only the nature of the sources i repeat for the third time give me a book, give me a website stop telling me what the sources are and give them to me!! I hate to break it to you but there was no such thing as an a-political witness; all witnesses were either members of the comintern or were escorted by state officials and consequently not given a full tour...

"Can you not see though how fanatical Trotsky was in his hatred of the Soviet Union? The man thought the only way to destroy the Fascism was to have a civil war in the Socialist (and Trotsky himself said it would cost ten times the number of lifes lost in the Civil War to overtrow Socialism in the USSR) Soviet Union."

Contrary to your stalinist brainwash/beleifs their is nothing wrong about being a fanatic for justice, truth, and socialism Trotsky like his intellectual forefathers Marx and Engels embodies this fanaticism... As a stalwart combator of Fascism Trotsky recognized the true "Red Fascist" nature of the corrupt political ogliarchy of the Soviet Union. A victory against this dictatorship which no surprise was a good friend of Hitler would be a victory against fascism everywere. This new revolution would render the Nazi-Soviet pact void and the new revolutionary masses would be free to carry on the fight against the Fascists...

"So why then did Trotsky get less than 6,000 votes out of over 725,000 cast in a fair and secret election in December 1927? Oh no on the contray it wasn't fair, Trotskyites led by Trotsky and Zinoviev attempted to ransack party buildings in Leningrad the previous month. "

Thats not hard to explain, massive voter fraud/ intimidation. By this time Stalin had been General Secretary for a while, had the NKVD on his side. Had made examples of Trotskyists by framing them for crimes they didnt committ in the spirit of the hundreds of show trials and consequently scared all the Trotskyists into submission. Even without terror Workers parties all over the world are constantly whooped by conservative parties like the Republicans does this reflect anything on whose right?

"Ofcourse the fact that when Stalin died he didn't have even a 100 roubles to his name while Trotsky sold his 'memoirs' to English Broadsheets for 75.000 pounds (which is god knows what today) means nothing to you. The fact that their were no millionaires in the USSR in 1953 yet after a former Trotskyite took over there were over 13,000 again means nothing."

It does mean nothing, you cant judge a socialist by his wealth those funds im sure went to further the cause. Engels was very wealthy does that somehow discredit him as a socialist?

"Apart from Trotsky and Trotskyite accounts (the people who have proven to of produced forgeries and lies) what do you base your opinion on the USSR under Stalin on? 'Authoritarian State Capitalism' name me one similarity between the PRC in 2003 and the USSR between 1930 and 53? There are none. 'Alieniated the worker' this is why tens of millions mourned when Stalin died is it? This is why after Khruschev's revisionsism and in effect capitalist reforms and importantly attack on Stalin was met by prolertariat uprisings in Georgia, Russia and the Ukraine? "

I base my views on numerous sources very few of them Trotsky, perhaps the most powerful one of all was a conversation i had on the net with someone who had lived under Stalin. Because the U.S.S.R was not democratic, lacked freedom of speech, multiple political parties, openess, and opposing viewpoints it was not a state for the people. At the same time the state was being run outside the people it was controling the means of production and consequently alienating the worker from his labor. Only in a state run by the worker can one transcend the alienation of the worker. This is authoritarian capitalism because it alienates the worker from his labor for the profit of the few, it is authoritarian in nature and exploitative therfore making it authoritarian capitalist in my book regardless of wether or not it is the free market or resembles PRC... In the days of monarchy millions of people would mourn the deaths of most kings and queens does this mean jack? NO! As for the uprisings the only one i am aware of was in Georgia these were more to protect self interest because Krushcev was less sympathetic to the Georgians as a race and nation and would not give them as much power not so much out of a love of Stalin...

"So what 'Redcomrade' is so difficult to see here."

I have already exposed you here Trotsky was merely putting Marx into action wether or not Lenin was good is debatable but he was definately revisionist on the Labor Armies... Stalin was revisionist on all terms though and makes George Dubya look like a hardcore Marxist...


"'By the prolertariat masses' you mean the soldiers who fought so hard for the defence of what they had created under Stalin and in some cases died with his name on their lips."

Does this mean shit to me? NO! Millions of Nazis died with Heil Hitler on their lips does this make him a good man?

"You seem to deny/ignore the fact that Trotsky is openly saying that his idea of 'defence' of the Soviet Union is to overthrow the government. 'Socialist democracy' why put one in place when they allready have it? If you would like to name me a state where workers would walk into their factory managers office and demand their resigantion and actually get it then please do? This happened in the USSR under Stalin and most certainly would NOT of happened under Trotsky's 'Military discipline'"

Simply firing a valuable technician or manager on demand is a joke and nothing good comes of it there should at least be an investigation...

"You call me 'brainwashed' when throughout this entire post you can't stop mimicing what Trotsky said. Although this make's it quite apparent that you base your entire opinion on the USSR on that of Trotsky. "

Not at all I base it on objective historians, Trotsky, and the common people who lived the history... The ? shouldnt be were do i get my sources but rather were do you get yours?

"Trotsky openly calls for a uprising of the Soviet prolertariat when Fascist armies are engulfing Europe. It doesn't take a genius to see that Trotsky was nothing more than a bitter, fanatical old man whom put his fight against a supposed 'Evil Stalinist Beurcracy' above everything and anything else. "

Its never a bad time for a proletariat uprising a Marxist knows this in his heart. Were there is injustice we will combat it the proletariat will be silenced no matter what the supposed threat is.

"First of all don't call me an 'idiot' and second of all don't ignroe the evidence when it is presented to you. "

I call em as I c em and you have yet to site a credible link to your witnesses or book to back it up...

"Sigh, the man calls for a uprising and had plans for a coup. Oh and Trotsky really loved the 'masses' when he wanted them put under 'Military discipline' for the rest of their lifes. "

He is merely putting Marx into action, i have already answered this, a coup was the last chance to return the revolution to a Marxist course...

"Don't call me a 'fool'. If you actually read that quote you will see it is Anti-Stalin aswell, see 'Side with the Devil to defeat Hitler', while ofcourse this theory is wrong it never the less shows us that the Soviet people were united behind Stalin and the Soviet government, for whatever reasons. "

This is the one exception, once the Nazis had actually set foot in soviet territory I would even stand behind Stalin untill they were driven out...

"As for the rest of that part of your post, LOL. That's why Trotsky is hailed throughout the western world as a 'Genius' 'Lenin's natural successor' and 'Sole Creator of the Red Army'? We are taught all this in schools and the right-wing admire the man."

I dont know what school you go to but at my school the only good bolshevik is a dead bolshevik wether or not their names are Trotsky or Stalin. As for books of course Trotsky isnt portrayed quite as negatively but this is because Stalins evil is a universal truth wether or not you are a capitalist or communist...

"And you call me 'brainwashed' and my belief in Stalin is supposedly like that of a christian's belief in God. Anybody else see the hyprocisy? Yeah that's right the best way to go about fighting Fascism is to kill every Communist who ever improved anybody's life through revolutions from the Korean Penisular to Berlin."

Haha you really think communism in Korea has done good for anyone? Stalinists not communists should be hunted down like the dogs they are and butchered accordingly just as they did to comrade trotsky. Cowards attacked him from behind with an icepick, what a spineless herd of evil twats....

"Why were you there? Ofcourse suffice to say it would of been a paradise under 'Military Discipline' and 'Labor Armies'. "

New NKVD records show that under Stalin the number of NKVD informants tripled, 70% of these informants were not informing on Nazis or foreign powers but on the proletariat themselves. Yes labor armies are communism as dictated by Marx communism IS paradise...

[Cassius Clay]

''Im afraid reality testifies against you Stalinist, not only do the majority of socialist sources today concede Stalin's counterrevolutionary authoritarian nature but also every other source excluding Stalinists.''

http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/

http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html


''You have told me only the nature of the sources i repeat for the third time give me a book, give me a website stop telling me what the sources are and give them to me!!''

LOL, it's not up to me to provide a source for you that back's up your Trotskyite rubbish. Provide it yourself, go on I've given you a head start by telling you what make's a source credible. Although since they don't exist your still gonna be facing a problem.


''I hate to break it to you but there was no such thing as an a-political witness; all witnesses were either members of the comintern or were escorted by state officials and consequently not given a full tour...''

Do you have a clue what you are talking about? A American worker who worked in the Soviet Union for a decade was NOT a member of the comintern or escorted by 'state officials'. His name was John Littlepage and when he wen't back to America he wrote a book 'In Search of Soviet Gold' that testifies that sabotage was taking place and that the reaction of 'state officials' was the complete opposite to what you suggest. Also to say that the American Ambassador was a member of the Comintern is simply stupid.

''Contrary to your stalinist brainwash/beleifs their is nothing wrong about being a fanatic for justice, truth, and socialism Trotsky like his intellectual forefathers Marx and Engels embodies this fanaticism... As a stalwart combator of Fascism Trotsky recognized the true "Red Fascist" nature of the corrupt political ogliarchy of the Soviet Union.''

Yeah he was such a 'stalward combator of Fascism' that he ordered his followers to colloborate with the Imperial Japanese in slaughtering Chinese peasants (although Trotsky never did like peasants and I suppose the citizens of Nanking were just 'Stalinist dogs') and acting as spies for Franco.

THe evidence is all on page three of this thread, respond to it.


''A victory against this dictatorship which no surprise was a good friend of Hitler would be a victory against fascism everywere. This new revolution would render the Nazi-Soviet pact void and the new revolutionary masses would be free to carry on the fight against the Fascists...''

First of all it (the Soviet Union) wasn't a 'Dictatorship' of anything except the prolerariat. What the rest of the above means is that Trotsky and his supporters can enter Moscow at the front of the German Army.

''Thats not hard to explain, massive voter fraud/ intimidation. By this time Stalin had been General Secretary for a while, had the NKVD on his side. Had made examples of Trotskyists by framing them for crimes they didnt committ in the spirit of the hundreds of show trials and consequently scared all the Trotskyists into submission. Even without terror Workers parties all over the world are constantly whooped by conservative parties like the Republicans does this reflect anything on whose right?''

Back up the above with some evidence. It is merely speculation and rhectoric not to mention outright lies. 'Trotskyite show trials' in 1927? Please don't say such rubbish and try to pass it of as credible. The only intimidation took part on behalf on the Zinoviev and Trotsky whose supporters attempted to start a riot in Leningrad a month before the election.

"It does mean nothing, you cant judge a socialist by his wealth those funds im sure went to further the cause. Engels was very wealthy does that somehow discredit him as a socialist?''

How much is 75,000 pounds today? And I'm sure Engels (not to mention being born wealthy) came up with funds in other ways other than helping the right-wing in propaganda wars against Socialism.


''I base my views on numerous sources very few of them Trotsky, perhaps the most powerful one of all was a conversation i had on the net with someone who had lived under Stalin.''

Well what do you know of this person? Alexander Soljenitsyn also lived under Stalin doesn't mean I take him seriesly. Considering it is the very people who grew up under Stalin who now vote for the Communists throughout the former Soviet Union I find it hard to belief that this persons view is shared by more than small minority. Ofcourse this person's perfectly entitled to their opinion and you can't expect everybody to be happy with the government.

Incidently what pacificly did they say?


''Because the U.S.S.R was not democratic, lacked freedom of speech,''

You should really read the Soviet Consitution. 'Democratic' so see the Smolensk archive which has been in the west since 1945. Election process in USSR was very democratic. 'Freedom of speech' ofcourse freedom of speech was allowed. Stalin was criticised by the opposition throughout the 20's and 30's, Bakhurin was editor of Ivesta and from there launched scathing attacks on everything Stalin and the Soviet government were doing. What about Alexander Kollontai, Maxim Gorky and the Christian scientist Pavlov who won the noble prize in 1904? What about the policy of 'Criticism and self-criticism'.

''multiple political parties,''

One moment your supporting military discipline in factories the next your calling for a 'Bourgesie Democracy'. If it meant criticising Stalin you would swear at your own mother. It may of escaped your attention but there were never any 'multiple political parties' under Lenin.


''openess, and opposing viewpoints it was not a state for the people.''

As I heard a member of the CPUSA once say, there was criticism in the Soviet Union of the system. We saw that every night on CNN during the cold war, when 'dissidents' gave interviews. It really is amusing when people complain about a evil opppressive government which lacks freedom of speech yet gives it's dissidents access to a audience of hundreds of millions where they launch vicious attacks against the government.


''At the same time the state was being run outside the people it was controling the means of production and consequently alienating the worker from his labor. Only in a state run by the worker can one transcend the alienation of the worker. This is authoritarian capitalism because it alienates the worker from his labor for the profit of the few, it is authoritarian in nature and exploitative therfore making it authoritarian capitalist in my book regardless of wether or not it is the free market or resembles PRC... In the days of monarchy millions of people would mourn the deaths of most kings and queens does this mean jack? NO! As for the uprisings the only one i am aware of was in Georgia these were more to protect self interest because Krushcev was less sympathetic to the Georgians as a race and nation and would not give them as much power not so much out of a love of Stalin...''

Oh really. The first part of your post you may have a certian point when talking about the USSR under Khruschev and later Brezheve. But you still fail to provide anything to back up your claim, just worn out rhectoric.

As for Georgia read and learn.

''We shall not allow criticism of Stalin'
The Incidents in Georgia, March 1956

The Third anniversary of Stalin's death was observed in Tbilisi and some other cities of Georgia and mass demonstrations were held. The demonstration in defence of Stalin was provoked by the rumours regarding Khrushchev's speech on the cult of personality, which was read at the closed session of the XXth Congress of the CPSU on 25th of February, 1956. Force was eventually used to disperse the demonstrations. The number of casualties is not known exactly. The letter of the correspondent of the newspaper Trud, Mr. Statnikov is an eyewitness's account.

Confidential letter

To
The Chief Editor Trud


Com. Burkov.

I am sending you copies of two documents: The Appeal of the Georgian Communist Party and the Central Committee of the LKSM of Georgia and the Order of the commanding officer of the Tbilisi garrison.

The Appeal and the Order were relayed (day and night) on the radio all the 24 hours at regular intervals of 15-20 minutes in the Georgian and Russian languages. The Order was pasted all over the town on the 10th of March already.

The very contents of these documents demand serious thinking on our part.

So what happened after all in the Georgian capital?

Why was the Order regarding military patrolling necessary?

I will attempt to provide answers to all these questions in detail i.e. in this secret information I would attempt to depict the events to which either I was an eyewitness or about which I came to know through reliable sources (the eyewitness accounts of communists and press persons).

In order to be consistent I would depict the events in their chronological order.

So on the 5th of March I was near the Palace of Labour (I was on my way to the press centre), when suddenly I heard continuous car sirens (these are prohibited by traffic rules) and subsequently a large group of people appeared around the corner of the street. These were students (about 120-150 in number) marching with their heads uncovered. They were moving in the middle of the street. The front row was carrying portraits of Stalin and wreaths. The organisers were requesting the people standing on the footpaths to uncover their heads as a mark of their respect for Stalin. Every now and then someone from the procession would come out and ask the drivers of the stranded vehicles to blow their car sirens. This day witnessed similar processions in other parts of the city. All of them converged towards the monument to Stalin to lay wreaths.

On the second day the same events were repeated but now in a more organised manner. The number of the people increased, specially towards noon when classes at the colleges get over. Now Lenin's portraits were also being carried in addition to those of Stalin. Red flags adorned with black mourning ribbons also appeared.

On this day at 4 o'clock, a meeting was held in which I was also present. Leading officials of the ministries, newspapers and journals - in all about 70-80 persons - were invited to this meeting. The meeting was inaugurated by the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Georgian Communist Party, Comrade Mzhavanadze. In his very short speech he appealed to all those gathered in the room to work for the practical implementation of the decisions of the XXth Congress of the Party. He informed us that he will acquaint us with the letter of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union 'Regarding the Cult of Personality'. Then he left and his place was taken up by Com. Mchedlishvili, Secretary of the Central Committee.

After the reading of this document we were told that all the communists and the youth league members will be acquainted with the contents of this document. Nobody asked any questions and the session came to an end.

On the 7th of March, the students of the Stalin University, after having suspended their classes came out in the streets of the city. They were supported by the students from the Institute of Agriculture, Polytechnical Institute and other institutions (there are 19 of these in Tbilisi). Students from schools joined the college-going students. It must be noted here that the college students forced the school students to come out on the streets through threats to the directors of the schools of physical injury and damage to the school property. This mass (of people) was not stopped by anyone and proceeded along the main street of Tbilisi - Rustaveli Street - towards the Lenin Square. Approximately at 11 o'clock these people accompanied by the cacophony of car sirens were chanting the slogan 'dideba did Stalins' 'dideba did Stalins' (Long Live Great Stalin, Long Live Our Leader Stalin) near the Government House. Then they moved on towards the Lenin Square. Here they again stopped before the City Council building. A few people read poems while others sang songs in praise of Stalin.

On the 8th of March the number of incidents increased. Trucks filled with people appeared and they went about the city with flags and portraits of Lenin and Stalin chanting 'Lenin-Stalin!' and 'Long live Stalin!'.

Vehicles were forcefully stopped, and taken over by the demonstrators and the drivers threatened with physical violence. There were unruly incidents when some people refused to give in to the demands - it happened near the bridge named after Stalin where the hooligans pulled out the driver and threw him into the river Kuru when he refused. Incidents of beating were also reported.

On this day the atmosphere was already very tense. At about 3 p.m. I was in the crowd near the Lenin Square where several of the provocateurs came and delivered speeches. For example they shouted 'Why are there no mourning flags in the city?' Why are there no portraits of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin on the building of the city council?' then they said that all those who support bringing out the portraits raise their hands. Several people rushed towards the City Council building, they searched for the duty officer, found the portraits and put them up on the wall of the building. And how did the police behave? They did nothing. Everything that went on during these days was done in the name of the great son of the Georgian people - Stalin, Djugashvili - this name was on every lip and it reflected the emotions the people.

Then somebody from the platform shouted, pointing towards the building of the Headquarters of the Transcaucasian army 'Georgians! If you want the portraits of Lenin and Stalin then go and demand them'. This was sufficient for the crowd to rush towards the headquarters. The guards could just close the metallic gates in time. Then the crowd started knocking at the gates and shouting. Some of them managed to climb on to the balcony along the water pipes and put up mourning flags. For an hour the headquarters was surrounded by the crowd. Only after that probably came the orders to the soldiers who then went up and put up portraits of Lenin and Stalin.

Now more and more demands were being made by the crowd - the city must be adorned appropriately for the mourning, put up loudspeakers so that poets and other could speak on the occasion. They even demanded to fetch Marshal Chzhu De (A delegation was promptly sent to him). It was later declared from the platform that the Marshal could not come due to illness.

Towards the evening microphones and loudspeakers were set up near the monument to Lenin and thousands of people gathered there. Provocative speeches of inflammatory, chauvinistic and anti-Soviet nature were read, thereby the event was given the twist that the antisocial elements wanted. The names of the people addressing the crowd were either fictitious or were withheld. Thus the unconstrained 'orators' read provocative speeches of an anti-Soviet and chauvinistic nature. I'll give some examples of what I heard. One of the speakers at the Lenin Square in his long speech made a list of Stalin's achievements and declared that with his death all his achievements are being compromised and that the country and first of all the Georgians are going to perish. After that he took out the party card out of his pocket and appealed to fight for the cause of Stalin and if need be to lay down their lives. Shaking the party card in the air he chanted 'who wants to take a vow raise your hands?' Several hands with party cards were seen in the air. They chanted 'we swear, we swear'.

Policemen standing next to me expressed their indignation and few of them smiled. Nobody took any step to turn the provocateur away (probably he had a stolen party card). And the provocateurs continued with their counter-revolutionary speeches. Then another speaker started in much the same vein. A huge young man with a Tarzan hairdo, who called himself a student, waved his fists in the air, and after a series of accusations against the Party and the government, went on to recall the struggle of the Georgian people against the foreigners and then concluded his speech saying:

'Those who have decided to defile Stalin and his memory must know that the Georgian people will never forgive them. We will not allow any criticism of our leader Stalin. Any revision of Stalin is a revision of Marxism and they shall pay for it with their blood'.

This speaker was 'awarded' a long applause by the public. And all this took place at the central square of the capital of Georgia.

Nobody tried to stop this nuisance. Suddenly there was a commotion and a cry for help was heard from someplace nearby. It appeared that a group of hooligans were beating up a person who had loudly expressed his dissatisfaction. The militia men could just manage to save the victim.

The speeches still continued. Suddenly someone spoke in Russian. I could not see the face of the person as he was far away, but it was apparent from his heavy Georgian accent that this speaker was not a Russian. I must underline here that I needed to take precautions and could not make notes as there was the incident of a photographer being beaten up and his camera broken when he turned his camera towards the platform.

I am recounting the speech of this person from memory.

'I am a student of a Moscow institute (no mention of the institute's name) and want to convey to you on behalf of all the students of Moscow our congratulations and that they support you and ask you to continue the struggle that you have begun. Just as the Georgian people we too are angered by the letter of the CC directed against our leader Stalin. It has been written with the purpose of destroying the friendship between the peoples and to turn back the clock of history. Nobody will be allowed to discredit the services of great Stalin - the leader of the world proletariat. Only the enemies of the people can revise Marxism.

Some woman in order to exaggerate shouted aloud from the platform:

'Listen Georgians, we have support in Moscow. Demonstrations are being held not only in Georgia but also in Stalingrad, Leningrad and other cities. We vow to continue our struggle for the cause of Stalin.'

As a young poet was lifted on to the platform he was applauded. He read out a poem dedicated to Stalin and then shouted loudly 'I am with you'.

On this day some intellectuals of Georgia including poets and writers Abashidze, Kaladze, Bobokhidze also read speeches. They read poems commemorating the death anniversary of Stalin.

However even all this did not satisfy the crowd. A voice demanded - 'We want new poems on Stalin reflecting the mood prevalent during these historical events.'

'It is two days now that we are waiting for Iosif Grishashvili, the winner of the Stalin Prize to come and read his poems. Why isn't he here? When Stalin was alive he received lots of money and now he can't even pay his gratitude to him. The Georgian people will not forgive such a poet.'

Anybody could speak from the platform as long as he expressed the sentiments that the provocateurs had aroused. Even a priest spoke thanking the Georgians for protecting the name of Stalin.

It is reported that even more revolting speeches were read near the monument.

On 9th March unimaginable things were happening. Not only the youth but even grown-ups were going berserk on the streets. Most of the small workshops were closed. The employees of small offices stopped work and came out on the streets. There were even cases of workers not reporting for work at the enterprises of the food and light industry. In short the normal life in the city was totally disrupted. That is why the Central Committee (certainly after a big delay) appealed to the city's population.

The transport - movement of trams, buses and trolley buses was disrupted from the very morning. A large number of trucks full of people moved all over the city waving flags and portraits. They were singing songs and shouting 'Lenin, Stalin' and 'Long live Stalin'. Flags were flying at half mast in the city and the walls of the buildings were plastered with portraits of Lenin and Stalin. On the eve the offices of the newspapers Kommunist and Zarya Vostoka were invaded by unknown people who threatened to demolish the office and the press if commemorative issues were not published (after this incident the offices of these publications were given armed protection).

On 9th March the newspapers carried editorials 'The Third Anniversary of the Death of J.V. Stalin' with a photo showing Lenin and Stalin together at the Gorkakh (1922). On the first page it was announced that 'Today, 9th March, meetings would be held at 1 o'clock in all the enterprises, offices and educational institutions to commemorate the third anniversary of the death of J.V. Stalin'.

I went to the meeting at the Stalin Coach Building Factory - the oldest factory in Georgia (formerly the Railway workshop). A stage was erected and a large portrait of Stalin was put up.

The chairman of the factory trade union Com. Deshneli opened the meeting. The director of the enterprise Com. Matsaberidze made the first speech. The speech that he made was in line with the Editorial in the newspaper Zarya Vostoka. Further he informed that the workers of the factory are successfully striving to implement the decisions of the XXth Congress of the Party and that the plans for the last two months have been over-fulfilled. Com. Matsaberidze concluded his speech with an appeal to the workers to work more efficiently.

Com. Chumburidze, a turner at the factory and also a delegate to the XXth Congress, Com. Antadze, the oldest worker at the factory, Com. Turin, a team leader, and Com. Bedenashvili, a fitter and many others declared that they will carry on the fight for higher productivity, and that the collective of the factory that carried the name of Stalin will occupy the front row in the struggle for the victory of Communism.

However, neither the first speaker nor the subsequent speakers said a word about what was happening in the city and did not condemn the deceitful provocateurs. I consider it a mistake that there was nobody present at the meeting from the City Committee and the Central Committee of the party. It was necessary to speak out and to explain to the people that the events in the city are a result of incitement.

Meanwhile, in two other towns of the republic the commemorative meeting passed without any incidents. In Gori and Kutaisi meetings were held under the supervision of the party organisations. After the meetings the people dispersed peacefully.

But in Tbilisi right from the morning meetings were being held. At 1 o'clock the First Secretary of the Communist Party of Georgia Com. Mzhavanadze gave a short speech at the Lenin Square. At the end he said that the 'appeal' issued by the people will be considered and they will be given a reply. The people began to disperse, but when Com. Mzhavanadze departed a woman shouted 'Stop! I was summoned today to the Ministry of Internal Affairs and they took a written obligation from me that I will not speak today. I ask all of you why such things are being done?' And the crowd stopped.

In the evening a large crowd gathered at the monument of Stalin. It is reported that some critic by the name of Beso Zhgenti read out a very chauvinistic and anti-Soviet speech. The 'appeal' was also read out. It included among others such points: do not make public the letter about the 'personality cult' and the change of government etc.

Absolutely revolting was the behaviour of the people sitting on the trucks (the number plates were removed). Youngsters moved on the streets and were shouting: 'Long live Stalin' and 'Our blood for Stalin'.

And some of them moved about the city in trucks and personal cars shouting and waving knives while showering insults at the government and the Soviet leaders.

So about 11 o'clock in the evening (as per Tbilisi time) near the building of the Communication Ministry (situated about 200 metres from the Central Committee of the party) a most horrible incident took place which was to be expected the way events were developing.

As a matter of fact by this time a number of organisations were already put under armed protection. So a strong security cordon was thrown around the Central Committee building, the State House, the Army Headquarters and the newspaper and publishing houses.

At 23.45 hours a large crowd of people rushed towards the radio station shouting: 'Capture the radio station, capture the telegraph office'. It appears that a group of 10 persons was sent into the telegraph office to dispatch telegrams. They were allowed inside but were detained for identification. This was passed outside to the crowd. On the call given by the provocateurs people were sent to secure the release of the detained persons. The way to the building was guarded by the security personal. Some one from the rear ranks opened machine gun fire. One soldier was attacked with a knife. Hooligans put everything into action: knives, stones and belts. Shooting in the air was resorted to. Shots were returned from the crowd. The provocateurs continued inciting people. There was no way out for the soldiers. Their life was in danger and they were forced into taking defensive action. Only after this did the crowd disperse.

After this with the help of tanks the crowd gathered at the Lenin Square was also dispersed. The square and the Rustaveli Street were cleared. Most of the people went away. But the crowd still remained at the monument. It was not possible to take forceful measures here as the monument was in a park and was surrounded by a large number of trees which was made use of by the provocateurs.

Anti-social elements started inciting the nationalist sentiments of the people:

'Georgians' - they shouted - 'blood has been spilt for Stalin and we will continue our struggle and not a single Georgian must leave this place etc.'

The armed contingents surrounded the park and asked the people to disperse. Jeers and insults were hurled at them in response. Knives and fists were shown in response to repeated warnings. And when around three o'clock in the night they were being pushed out the hooligans and the provocateurs put up resistance - they began to attack the soldiers, snatch the machine guns from their hands and by now there were casualties among the soldiers. It forced them to resort to the use of arms.

This is what the provocation, that was apparently organised by foreign spies and agents, and which was not dealt with in time led to. This is clearly borne by the fact that a Turkish bullet was found in the wound of one of the soldiers injured during these incidents.

There was provocation also in the town of Gori. During the night (at 4 o'clock) some 'demonstrators' had come from Tbilisi in trucks to the Gori Textile Mill (from Tbilisi it is 2 hours journey). This group of people broke into the compound of this enterprise and the provocateurs started shouting: 'Why are you working? There is a civil war going on in Tbilisi. The Russians are killing us.' A section of the workers went with the provocateurs. In the enterprise village people were forced out of their beds and onto the trucks. Several vehicles with the workers from the enterprise were taken to Tbilisi in trucks. In the morning the administration of the enterprise had to get workers from different shifts so that the work is not disrupted.

On 10th March the Order was issued and pasted all over Tbilisi (in some places it was torn). The people talked about the incidents of the night in hushed tones and blamed the government and the Russian soldiers. In spite of the fact that soldiers armed with machine guns were guarding the monument, a group of people tried to gather there but was asked to move away by the soldiers. At about 12 p.m. a large group of people gathered on the bridge and rushed towards the monument. Warning shots were fired in the air and this stopped the people. On this there was an attempt to seize the military warehouse. Heavy military patrolling was carried out on the 10th and 11th March. Meetings were held in the party organisations and night duties were organised at the various enterprises.

Law and order has now been restored in the city. Some of the organisers and provocateurs have been arrested. All establishments are functioning normally.

These were the first anti-Soviet demonstrations ever in Tbilisi during the Soviet rule. Some minor incidents had occurred in some regions of Georgia in 1924 but never in Tbilisi.

The events of these days are an evidence of the lapses in the work of our intelligence agencies. The enemy could make use of the weak link i.e. the national sentiments. The existence of a spy centre can also not be ruled out as the evidence points towards organised guidance and that everything occurred according to a well-thought-out plan.

In my opinion the public reading of the letter on 'personality cult' should have been avoided (it was known to about 150 people in the Central Committee of the party even on 4 and 5 March). However on the 5th and 6th the symptoms were already visible. The decisions of putting loudspeakers was a mistake and if was done then it was necessary for the party leaders and workers (City Committee and the regional committee) not to leave the loudspeakers and take control of the situation. Making full use of the absence of the leaders the deceitful provocateurs carried out their anti-Soviet action.

In Tbilisi there are a large numbers of unemployed. There are thousands of qualified people who stay in the city but do not want to go to other places in the region to work and it is these people who vitiate the atmosphere in the city. Probably the provocateurs made use of this class of people. The town should now be properly searched.

I have been living in Georgia since long ago and know the language of the people and know their customs. The majority of them are honest and loyal Soviet citizens. The people I know well are extremely indignant. They say that 'Georgia has fallen in the eyes of the entire Soviet people. Here among the youth there are unscrupulous hooligans who for the sake of a 'friend' and a 'comrade' can even commit a crime. There was a time when it was very popular to be a member of the organisation Young Marxists. In view of the recent events, I am afraid if something similar has not been organised by the provocateurs.

I am confident that the CC of the CPSU would examine the whole affair and come to appropriate conclusions.

Correspondent of Trud in Georgia
12 March 1956
Tbilisi
(S. Stanikov)

A P P E A L

To Communists, Members of the Komsomol,
Workers and all the Working People of Georgia

5th to 9th March have been days of mourning as the sad date of the death of J.V. Stalin were commemorated. During these days the working people of Georgia came to the monument to Stalin as a mark of their respect for him. These sentiments are very natural and understandable.

However, in these days of mourning some deceitful individuals - provocateurs and organisers of the unrest - who attempted to use the sense of grief of the sons of the Georgian people to harm the cause of Lenin to which J.V. Stalin devoted his whole life. These people took to creating unrest with the aim of disturbing the normal functioning of various establishments, enterprises, educational institutions and the life in the city.

The Central Committee of the Communist Party of Georgia and the Central Committee of the Leninist Youth Communist League call on all communists, members of the Komsomol and all Soviet patriots for whom the cause of Socialism is dear to immediately restore order in the city, restrain the provocateurs and ensure the normal functioning of all establishments and educational institutions.

The CC of the CPSU and the CC of the Komsomol appeal to all the citizens of Tbilisi who have been misled by the provocateurs and call on them to immediately return to their normal work.

The CC of the CPSU and the CC of the Komsomol are convinced that the communists and the members of the Komsomol would take the lead and restore normal life in the city.

CC CP of Georgia
CC ALYCL
9th March 1956
Tbilisi

ORDER No. 14
Tbilisi
9th March 1956

Officer in Command of the Tbilisi Garrison

During the last few days in Tbilisi there have been attempts by certain elements to create unrest and disturb the normal functioning of enterprises, establishments and the life in the city of Tbilisi.

To stop these disturbances I order Lt. Colonel Makushev, Commandant of Tbilisi, to authorize military patrolling from 24.00 hours 9th March.

To arrest and hand over to the militia for criminal proceedings all persons creating unrest and disturbing the normal life in the city.

Major General Gladkov
Officer in Command of Tbilisi Garrison.

Courtesy 'Istochnik' No. 6, 1995. Translated from the Russian by Tahir Asghar.''

''I have already exposed you here Trotsky was merely putting Marx into action wether or not Lenin was good is debatable but he was definately revisionist on the Labor Armies... Stalin was revisionist on all terms though and makes George Dubya look like a hardcore Marxist...''

You've exposed nothing other than the fact that you should go and join the Khmer Rouge. I give you credit though, it's apparent that you understand Trotskyism very much and to the extent that you would even start to call Lenin a revisionist you agree with Trotsky when he said.

''The wretched squabbling systematically provoked by Lenin, that old hand at the game, that professional exploiter of all that is backward in the Russian labour movement, seems like a senseless obsession.... The entire edifice of Leninism Is built on lies and falsification and bears within itself the poisonous elements of its own decay. '(Letter to Chkeidze 1913)''

''Does this mean shit to me? NO! Millions of Nazis died with Heil Hitler on their lips does this make him a good man?''

Well Nazis would die with Hitler's name on their lips. The fact that alot of Communists died with Stalin's name and not Trotsky's on their lips should tell you something.

''Simply firing a valuable technician or manager on demand is a joke and nothing good comes of it there should at least be an investigation...''

Sigh, read the post again.


''Not at all I base it on objective historians, Trotsky, and the common people who lived the history... The ? shouldnt be were do i get my sources but rather were do you get yours?''

Go to the top of the post and perhaps read page three of this thread and respond to the FACTS raised there.

''Its never a bad time for a proletariat uprising a Marxist knows this in his heart. Were there is injustice we will combat it the proletariat will be silenced no matter what the supposed threat is.''

Erm I really hope there's a typo in here, although from a Trotskyite who actually undersands Trotskyism I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't. BTW stop with the Ultra-leftist rhectoric and come up with a proper response back up with some evidence.

''I call em as I c em and you have yet to site a credible link to your witnesses or book to back it up...''

Yes I have, that you choose to ignore the facts and ignore Trotsky's crimes is up to you. You could ofcourse try to prove that all of this thread is a 'Stalinist falsification of history' but your probably ask me to come up with your sources so don't worry.

''He is merely putting Marx into action, i have already answered this, a coup was the last chance to return the revolution to a Marxist course...''

Well atleast you now admit that plans for a coup existed. Only now you try to defend it saying that it 'was the last chance to return the revolution'. Yeah Pinochet was only returning Chile to democracy.

''This is the one exception, once the Nazis had actually set foot in soviet territory I would even stand behind Stalin untill they were driven out...''

While supporting a civil war at the same time. Get real and after Trotskyite actions in China I wouldn't blame the NKVD for shooting you along with Fascists.


''I dont know what school you go to but at my school the only good bolshevik is a dead bolshevik wether or not their names are Trotsky or Stalin. As for books of course Trotsky isnt portrayed quite as negatively but this is because Stalins evil is a universal truth wether or not you are a capitalist or communist...''

Read.

''During the thirties, Trotsky literally became the world's expert on anti-Communism. Even today, right-wing ideologues peruse Trotsky's works in search of weapons against the Soviet Union under Stalin.

In 1982, when Reagan was again preaching the anti-Communist crusade, Henri Bernard, Professor Emeritus at the Royal Military School of Belgium, published a book to spread the following urgent message:

`The Communists of 1982 are the Nazis of 1939. We are weaker in front of Moscow than we were in August 1939 in front of Hitler.'

.

Bernard, op. cit. , p. 9.


All of the standard clichés of Le Pen , the fascist French Front National leader, are there:

`Terrorism is not the act of a few crazies. The basis of everything is the Soviet Union and the clandestine network of international terrorism.'

.

Ibid. , p. 121.


`Christian leftism is a Western wound.

`The synchronicity of `pacifist' demonstrations shows how they were inspired by Moscow.'

.

Ibid. , p. 123.


`The British commandos who went to die in the Falklands showed that there still exist moral values in the West.'

.

Ibid. , p. 11.


But the tactics used by such an avowed anti-Communist as Bernard are very interesting. Here is how a man who, despite despising a `leftist Christian', will ally himself with Trotsky.

`The private Lenin was, like Trotsky, a human being .... His personal life was full of nuance ....

`Trotsky should normally have succeeded Lenin ... he was the main architect of the October Revolution, the victor of the Civil War, the creator of the Red Army ....

`Lenin had much respect for Trotsky. He thought of him as successor. He thought Stalin was too brutal ....

`Within the Soviet Union, Trotsky rose up against the imposing bureaucracy that was paralysing the Communist machine ....

`Artist, educated, non-conformist and often prophet, he could not get along with the main dogmatists in the Party ....

`Stalin was nationalist, a sentiment that did not exist either in Lenin or Trotsky .... With Trotsky, the foreign Communist Parties could consider themselves as a force whose sole purpose was to impose a social order. With Stalin, they worked for the Kremlin and to further its imperialist politics.'

.

Ibid. , pp. 48--50.


We present here a few of the main theses that Trotsky put forward during the years 1937--1940, and that illustrate the nature of his absolute anti-Communist struggle. They allow one to understand why people in the Western security services, such as Henri Bernard, use Trotsky to fight Communists. They also shed some light on the class struggle between Bolsheviks and opportunists and on some aspects of the Purge of 1937--1938.''

The above is all said in school history text books, unless things have changed over the last two years then it's still the same. Even at A-Level we are forced to read Trotsky's interpration of everything in Russia from 1900 to 1940. This is FACT. Pay attention in class and your see that Trotsky is admired.

''Haha you really think communism in Korea has done good for anyone?''

Yes I do, although the current North Korean government is dangerously coming close to Capitalism and has been revisionist for many years now.

''Stalinists not communists should be hunted down like the dogs they are and butchered accordingly just as they did to comrade trotsky. Cowards attacked him from behind with an icepick, what a spineless herd of evil twats....''

Anybody see the resemblence between this and Joe Mcarthy? 'Dogs' 'Twats' come up with something new. Not to mention that sought of stuff I don't think should be tolerated in this forum atleast.

''New NKVD records show that under Stalin the number of NKVD informants tripled, 70% of these informants were not informing on Nazis or foreign powers but on the proletariat themselves.''

Source for this please. Oh and Trotsky or Robert Conquest isn't good enough.

''Yes labor armies are communism as dictated by Marx communism IS paradise...''

Well you would of had a hell of time in Cambodia under Pol Pot, to think 'paradise' actually existed just two and a half decades ago.

[Xvall]

Quote: from Mazdak on 4:57 pm on Feb. 9, 2003
Labor camps are not evil. Prisons are evil.

Prisons make those who commit no crimes support those who commit crimes with their tax money.

Labor camps mean that the criminals pay for themselves. Labor camps are a punishment, prison is not. Labor camps actually make the criminals do something. And something productive at that. What do prisons do? Besides drain the economy and take tax money?


I am going to have to agree with Mazdak on this. Labor Camps are a very good idea; in my opinion. They are generally thought of as something barbaric and cruel; but as long as there is no brutality in these places, I do not have a problem with sending criminals to them. People always complain about paying taxes to keep these people in jail. Why not have them preform some form of labor to 'work off' all of the funding that is used to sustain them in the facility.

As far as the Stalin issue goes, I will not comment. Throughout the history of my afilliation with communism/socialism; my views on him have varied from support, to extreme dislike. I do not believe that there is enough evidence or factual information right now for me to make a conclusion on him. Unlike the atrocities of Hitler, which have been recorded with photographs, and hours of footage. What I am about to show you (Sent to me by an anti-stalinist.) is the closest thing I have ever seen to the gulag.

http://drakedracoli.netfirms.com/snowstorm.jpg
http://drakedracoli.netfirms.com/tower1a.jpg

Wow. A barely visible person in a snowstorm - and a guard tower. You should be able to see why it would be unfair for me to form an opinion about Stalin.

Also - Why are we discussing men who died nearly a century ago? Shouldn't the things going around the world now be more important than any of this 'Stalin/Trotsky dissing' crap?

(Edited by Drake Dracoli at 3:02 pm on Feb. 16, 2003)

[Cassius Clay]

Drake Dracoli, your right. BTW that man could be anybody in any place. As for the guard tower, sure it looks imposing and horrible but prisons aren't holiday camps. Not to mention any place which is four decades old (the photo being in colour) ain't going to look nice.

Why do we discuss Stalin? Simple if a Capitalist criticies (and make's up lies) Marx and Lenin then you defend them, all I am doing is defending socialism that existed in the USSR. You are correct to have a open mind, but also bare in mind that the Capitalists and Trotskyites when talking about Stalin are just like the U$ when talking about Saddam's Weapons of mass Destruction.

It's pretty hard to disprove a negative. I for one am not going to believe that independent scientists are capable of finding the remain's of a 30,000 year old Elephant while the Russian government with the support of the UN is not capable of finding the remains of atleast a few million bodies barely 50 years old.

[RedComrade]

"Well if they are 'Disciples' then yes, as for freinds it just shows us what sought of people who he kept company with and who admired him."

If Trotsky is responsible for someone he had never met half way across the globe or even for that Rivera chap than Stalin is responsible for Yezhov....

"Well it's good to see you atleast admit that Trotsky used 'Cutthroat tactics'. As for the rest of your post, do you have any idea what wen't on in the 20's in the Soviet Union. Stalin never allied with Bakhurin for any ideological reason, nor out of opportunism. On the contray in 1925 he wrote to Bakhurin.

'The slogan ''Enrich yourself'' is NOT ours'. "

That is on one issue the issue of proletarian culture I beleive (something Stalin ruthlessly supressed might I add). Regardless of their dirrefences Stalin teamed up with Bukharin, Zinoviev, and Kamenev to insure that the most gifted and popular of the Bolsheviks did not take power (Trotsky) this was in 1923-1924. Wether or not they were buddy buddy in future does not concern me. As with Zinoviev and Kamenev as soon as they were no longer useful he had them framed on false pretenses and removed from power. It really is a bit of a coincidence that all those who might have proved rivals to Stalin wound up dead or removed from power. Itd be kind of like Bush having firm control of the FBI and then suddenly the FBI finds all his rivals to be corrupt criminals and off goes Gore, Nader, and anyone else with the potential to oppose him into a labor camp....

"So some guy serving at the American embassy is ofcourse a 'Evil Stalinist'? The rest of your post makes it quite clear you are literally a fantatic just like Trotsky ."

Yes most spies tend to work at embassies, in the case of mexico the soviet embassy would bring its agents and assasins in through the embassy and then they get a couple icepicks and go chopping up any opposition that exposes them for what they are...

"Either come up with some evidence proving all that was written there wrong and a forgery or admit that Trotsky was wrong and had became a tool of the greatest Capitalists of all, the U$A. It's all there written in black and white based on research, archives and FACTS. "

I finally looked up on this redcomrade site i didnt have enough time to examine it in detail and will not be so hasty as to comment on its validity at this time..

"Sigh, I guess there's just no getting through to some people. George Orwell became a state-informer for MI5 for cyring out loud, he may of been a talented writer but so was Geobbels. As for Stalin never putting his life on the line, while Trotsky was sitting in New York cafe's critiscing everything Lenin and the Bolsheviks did Stalin was risking imprisoment and a execution attempting to create worker's militancy throughout the opprressed lands of the Russian Empire. "

Workers militancy? I thought in earlier post and on soviet-empire you and the Stalinist were opposed to the militarization of the Labor Forces ? Please Explain..

"Well I'm not sure FDR ever 'admired' Stalin, the U$ government would of loved to see the Soviets ruined by the Nazis and did'nt really do alot to prevent that from happening. Ofcourse FDR never made a similar remark about Stalin that Hitler did about Trotsky. Not to mention the circumstances being completly different. Stalin and FDR being allies in fight against Fascism while Trotsky and Hitler. Well what were they doing? Oh yeah fight against 'Stalinist dogs'."

You have absolutely no evidence indirectly or directly linking Leon Trotsky to Adolph Hitler. Even that absurd RedComrade site doesnt attempt to. As for Hitlers admiration of Trotsky Stalin was a fanatical admirer of Ivan the Terrible who was a murderous monarchist/despot i sense a connection here!

"The fact that Trotsky was still alive and well, the fact that these people took him as their ideological master and did what they did and ofcourse the fact that Trotsky could of simply told them to stop and they would of. Even if they continued atleast Trotsky would of distanced himself from their crimes. But ofcourse the complete opposite is true."

He never even had contact with these people in Japan, what next for christ sake are you going to blame a Trotskyist Guerilla movement from the presents actions on him? There wasnt even the internet back then he had never even met these people before. But the same cannot be said for Stalin and Yeshov....

"How did he get away with this? He told his supporters
that Japan was imperialist and hence going to attack
the Soviet Union anyway. As we can imagine now, it kinda
sounded reasonable to the rank-and-file Trots of the
time."

Give me one document, one selection of his writings that supports this!

"He warms up by revealing Soviet spying techniques to the whole world,
which is an example of the kind of thing why the U.S. House Un-American
Activities Committee invited him for testimony, and as was fully admitted
by him. (The Writings of Leon Trotsky: 1939-40, NY: Merit Publishers, p.
125.)"

If it helped prevent a Stalinist Revolution than good ! As much as i dislike are country today I would hate it even more if all the officials were appointed by a central comitee, there was only one canidate in each election, there were no different parties, and you risked dissapearing in the middle of the night for expressing dissent with the government...

"In his "The Tanaka Memorial" article in a section titled
"Last Articles and Letters," Trotsky has sections called
"Early Soviet Advantages in Intelligence Work" and
"Why I can Verify It's Authenticity." The "it" being
referred to is a Japanese government memo on its upcoming
war plans. Then Trotsky reveals "How the Document Was
Secured." He goes right into the details of
photography and agent work. That's what he considered
defending the Soviet Union, revealing Soviet intelligence
methods to the imperialists."

I suppose you are opposed to Bush revealing the evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction because it might reveal methods and agents. Trotsky did more for the Soviet Security forces than Stalin ever did, While Stalin was doing practically nothing down in Southern Russia Trotsky was the architecht of the Red Army and was winning the civil war. In some ways I wish there was no Trotsky so you ungrateful Stalinists would see just what happened without him. There wouldve been no soviet union it would have collapsed sometime around 1919-1920

"But it doesn't stop there. He admits that Stalin doesn't
reveal the Tanaka Memorial document, because Stalin does
not want "to provoke Tokio." (Ibid., p. 113)

Next he admits he can't be sure that he isn't revealing
certain agents to the Japanese, because he's not sure
if they are in Japan still. (Ibid.)

Finally, for the usual lack of strategic acuity demonstrated
by Trotsky after Lenin died, we have the following:
"It is more than likely that this time too Moscow
does not wish to cause any annoyances to Tokio in view
of the negotiations now under way in the hope of
reaching a more stable and lasting agreement. All these
considerations, however, recede to the background
as the world war spreads its concentric circles ever wider."
(Ibid.) Trotsky was fond of saying Stalin was too
cautious and conservative and would blow the war that
way. Trotsky proved wrong."

Stalins cautious nature did almost blow the war. Despite numerous intelligence reports giving both the day and even the time of the German offensive Stalin refused to even put troops near the border for fear of "offending our friends the Germans" This mistake resulted in defeat after defeat for the Russians and doubtlessly contributed to the enormous death toll suffered by Russian forces.

"So above Trotsky is admitting his revelations could
cause difficulties for Soviet peace negotiations
with Japan in 1940. Trotskyists at the time
swallowed Trotsky's leadership whole, because
he was very articulate and attractive to those
of wishful minds. Trotskyists imagined
Trotsky's revelations about Soviet intelligence
and the provocations against Japan were
a good idea, because Trotsky knew how to
defend the Soviet Union better than Stalin
did anyway. It was arrogant sectarianism
that played into imperialist hands again and
again."

First you call Trotsky a fascist and then you attack him when he trys to prevent the Soviets from bowing to and negotiating with their greatest enemy the Fascists/Imperialists! HYPOCRISY!

"However what is really disgusting at a level
about ten times more than anything else is that even once Stalin
proved Trotsky wrong, the Trotskyists still
cling to his traitorous anti-communism in the name
of Marxism. Stalin did succeed in putting aside the
war with Japan contrary to Trotsky's predictions,
and long enough that Stalin's Soviet Union only had to enter
the war against Japan at the very end when it was already
basically over--after the Soviets had won the war with
Germany.''

That is true but at what cost. The soviets pulled out of a disputed area of Mongolia that numerous Soviet soldiers had given their lives defending against the Japs all in vain because Stalin gave into the Japs.

"This is why after the fighting in Barcelona between Trotskyites and Communists the below happened?

''On May 11, 5 days after the fighting began, Faupel, Hitler's ambassador to Franco, wrote:

"Concerning the disorders in Barcelona, Franco has told me that the street fighting was provoked by his agents. Nicholas Franco has confirmed this report, informing me that they have a total of 13 agents in Barcelona. Some time ago one of them had reported that the tension between Anarchists and Communists in Barcelona was so great that it could well end in street fighting. The Generalissimo told me that at first he doubted this agent's reports, but later they were confirmed by other agents. Ordinarily he didn't intend to take advantage of the possibility until military operations had been established in Catalonia. But since the Reds had recently attacked Teruel to aid the Government of Euzcadi (the Basque provinces), he thought the time was right for the outbreak of disorders in Barcelona. In fact, a few days after he had received the order, the agent in question with three or four of this men, succeeded in provoking shooting in the streets which later led to the desired results."(86)

Soon after the May fighting, a number of Franco agents were caught in Barcelona, and implicated Nin--perhaps for their own reasons.''"

Were does it link the agents to Trotskyists?

"That's right all of the above is a 'Stalinist Falsification of History' and Trotsky was a real Marxist who only fought for truth and justice."

Basically yes, right on the mark Clay!

[RedComrade]

"As far as I know, Marx and Engels never said there would be a global instant revolution, as the revisionist Trotsky stated."

Marx and Engels stated the necessity of Communism Internationalism in order for it to work properly. While they did not say it had to be instant as far as i am aware neither did Trotsky. Please provide some qoutes to support this if u dispute that Marx and Engels said communism must be international I will drag up some qoutes. It was Stalins theory of Socialism in one country that was revisionist and contrary to previous Marxist theory...

[RedComrade]

An equal obligation on all members of society to work until such time as private property has been completely abolished. Formation of industrial armies, especially for agriculture"- Frederick Engels, The Principles of Communism''

"I asked for a similar quote, compare the above to what Trotsky said. There is no comparision, except Industrial armies. Trotsky speaks of throwing workers into concentration camps, Engles speaks of the need for everybody to work. "

What happens when one deserts the army? Trotskys labor camp punishment was nice compared to a typical punishment for desertion which was death upon capture. If there is not a punishment why would people work in the industrial army anyway?

"As for the rest of your post, well where do I start.

No Trotsky wasn't 'putting Mrax and Engle's ideas into practice'. Trotsky came up with his 'Labor Armies' in 1920 and 1921, when the civil War was almost over. And precisly what role did a bunch of railway workers play in the importance of the civil war? "

The end of the civil war meant the end of opposition not the end of private property. The disciplined workforces, the architechts of socialism are to be maintained until ALL private property is abolished and that means internationally.

"No it wasn't based on the wishes of Marx, if it was then surely Trotsky wouldn't of got replaced as War Commisar because of the policies he tried to put into practice."

Are you trying to suggest that the October Revolution followed Marx and that revision was not tolerated. This is a joke there were hundreds of things about the October Revolution that would make Marx roll over in his grave. The facts are for good or bad Leninism and the October Revolution are revisionist in character and contradict Marxism on many key issues.

"As for Marx and Engels never putting anything into practice, Engels was a rich Capitalist. If he had wanted to he could of easily treated his workers like or infact much worse than even Trotsky proposed in 1920, but by all accounts he was the complete opposite. "

Engels admittedly was not trying to put Marxism into practice with his factories. They were to provide funds for a cause, not to be built on a Marxist model...

"'In December 1919, Trotsky proposed the `militarization of economic life' and wanted to mobilize the workers using methods he had applied for leading the army. With this line, the railroad workers were mobilized under military discipline. A wave of protests passed through the union movement. Lenin declared that Trotsky committed errors that endangered the dictatorship of the proletariat: by his bureaucratic harassment of the unions, he risked separating the Party from the masses. '"

This simply means Marxism in its truest form was not popular it does not mean it was not Marxism

"V. I. Lenin, The Trade Unions, the Present Situation, and Trotsky's Mistakes (30 December 1920). Collected Works (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1960--1970), vol. 32, pp. 19--42.


Trotsky's outrageous individualism, his open disdain for Bolshevik cadres, his authoritarian style of leadership and his taste for military discipline frightened many Party cadres. They thought that Trotsky could well play the rôle of a Napoléon Bonaparte, effecting a coup d'état and setting up a counter-revolutionary authoritarian régime. ''

Marxism does scare those who are below comprehension of it. Marxism is not a happy nice philosophy of peaceful coexistence we take no prisoners and make no bargains. Militrization is a central pillar of this and if it scares people to bad get in the Gulag then for it is they who are the counter-revolutionarys

"As for Lenin's 'will' (no will did exist Trotsky admitted as much in 1925) Lenin calls Stalin 'rude' and isn't sure whether Stalin is up to job of GS of the party. Big deal. "

Lenin Speaks


"Comrade Stalin, having become Secretary-General, has unlimited authority concentrated in his hands, and I am not sure whether he will always be capable of using that authority with sufficient caution. Comrade Trotsky, on the other hand, as his struggle against the C.C. on the question of the People's Commissariat of Communications has already proved, is distinguished not only by outstanding ability. He is personally perhaps the most capable man in the present C.C"

"Anyway enough with this discussion, answer the two previous posts and respond to the FACTS raised there. "

At last an admission of defeat, I have you beat on this one, Labor Armies are a central pillar of Marxism, opposition to them is revisionist. Concede defeat Stalinist revisionist.

[Cassius Clay]

''If Trotsky is responsible for someone he had never met half way across the globe or even for that Rivera chap than Stalin is responsible for Yezhov.... ''

Ofcourse Trotsky is responsible for the actions of the Trotskyites in the Japanese occupation of China. Not only did he not discourage it, the Japanese Fascist sent him a telegram on future collobaration. And how Stalin is responsible for Yezhov murdering his wife I don't know.


''That is on one issue the issue of proletarian culture I beleive (something Stalin ruthlessly supressed might I add). Regardless of their dirrefences Stalin teamed up with Bukharin, Zinoviev, and Kamenev to insure that the most gifted and popular of the Bolsheviks did not take power (Trotsky) this was in 1923-1924.''

Most popular? So why did Trotsky and the opposition (which included Zinoviev and Kamenev) only get 1% of the vote? If you did any research you will see that Zinoviev and Kamenev never 'allied' with Stalin, Zinoviev launched scathing attacks on Stalin throughout this time. Using Lenin's so called 'will' against Stalin but forgetting to mention the part critical of everybody else.


''Wether or not they were buddy buddy in future does not concern me. As with Zinoviev and Kamenev as soon as they were no longer useful he had them framed on false pretenses and removed from power. It really is a bit of a coincidence that all those who might have proved rivals to Stalin wound up dead or removed from power. Itd be kind of like Bush having firm control of the FBI and then suddenly the FBI finds all his rivals to be corrupt criminals and off goes Gore, Nader, and anyone else with the potential to oppose him into a labor camp.... ''

Just rhectoric, come up with something new. Zinoviev and Kamenev. there trial was deemed perfectly fair by everybody who witnessed it. See Joe Davis the American Ambassador to the Soviet Union at the time who wrote about it in 'Mission to Moscow'.


''I finally looked up on this redcomrade site i didnt have enough time to examine it in detail and will not be so hasty as to comment on its validity at this time..''

Finally a intelligent comment. Well done.

''Workers militancy? I thought in earlier post and on soviet-empire you and the Stalinist were opposed to the militarization of the Labor Forces ? Please Explain..''

Oh dear are you actually serious? What is mean't by 'workers militancy' is spreading revolutionary theory by strikes, meetings, pamphlets, armed rebellion etc, etc. Nothing in common with your Fascist 'Militisation of Labor'.


"You have absolutely no evidence indirectly or directly linking Leon Trotsky to Adolph Hitler.''

No I haven't provided any at the moment but what I have provided is direct evidence linking Trotsky to the FBI, Japenese Imperliasm and Franco's Fascists.


''Even that absurd RedComrade site doesnt attempt to.''

'absurd' whatever happened to giving it a chance. Read what the site has to say before passing judgement.

''As for Hitlers admiration of Trotsky Stalin was a fanatical admirer of Ivan the Terrible who was a murderous monarchist/despot i sense a connection here!''

'Fanatical admirer' source for this please. So Stalin admires a historical figure 500 years old for reasons that you have no clue and Hitler admires Trotsky whom are both alive and well at the same time. No I see no connection.

''He never even had contact with these people in Japan, what next for christ sake are you going to blame a Trotskyist Guerilla movement from the presents actions on him?''

Yes I would blame a 'Trotskyist' group's crimes on Trotsky. All Trotsky would of had to say was publically distance himself from them, but he didn't. And he did have contact with the Japanese government.


''There wasnt even the internet back then he had never even met these people before. But the same cannot be said for Stalin and Yeshov....''

Well it appears that you acknowledge the Trotskyite crimes in China. Why then do you refuse to belief that the Trotskyites commited all these crimes from Mexico to China and Spain and that Trotsky himself alive and well had nothing to do with it?

''Give me one document, one selection of his writings that supports this!''

Can't I'm afraid, I posted this article from the MIM site and it was part of a debate a member of MIM had with a Trotskyite. Although the Trotskyite didn't refute that Trotsky said this. But I originally posted it to show you that Trotsky was in contact with the Japanese Fascists.

''If it helped prevent a Stalinist Revolution than good ! As much as i dislike are country today I would hate it even more if all the officials were appointed by a central comitee, there was only one canidate in each election, there were no different parties, and you risked dissapearing in the middle of the night for expressing dissent with the government...''

First of all this was NOT what the Soviet Union under Stalin was. Second of all one moment you speak all the above the next you wan't 'Military Discipline' in factories. What's it to be? Ofcourse it will be neither because as long as it means criticising Stalin you will insult your own mother.

''I suppose you are opposed to Bush revealing the evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction because it might reveal methods and agents.''

That's right totally ignore Trotsky's collobaration with all Imperialists in trying to harm the Soviet Union publiclly, ignore the Japenese telegram and go of on the below rubbish.


''Trotsky did more for the Soviet Security forces than Stalin ever did, While Stalin was doing practically nothing down in Southern Russia Trotsky was the architecht of the Red Army and was winning the civil war. In some ways I wish there was no Trotsky so you ungrateful Stalinists would see just what happened without him. There wouldve been no soviet union it would have collapsed sometime around 1919-1920''

So why pray tell was Trotsky replaced as War Commissar in 1920 by Marshall Frunze? 'Whitle Stalin was practically doing nothing' LOL. Who told you this? Trotsky? Read and learn.

http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node12.htm...300000000000000 (http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node12.html#SECTION00400300000000000000)


''Stalins cautious nature did almost blow the war.''

Historians deal in facts, Trotsky said Stalin would blow the war and Stalin didn't. Not to mention that if you take the logic Stalin is responsible for every time the Red Army messed up then surely he is by himself responsible for the Red Army's victory.

''Despite numerous intelligence reports giving both the day and even the time of the German offensive Stalin refused to even put troops near the border for fear of "offending our friends the Germans" This mistake resulted in defeat after defeat for the Russians and doubtlessly contributed to the enormous death toll suffered by Russian forces.''

You should read Molotov's and Zhukov's memoirs among others. They were there and they will prove the above to be wrong. Not to mention you speak with the great benefit of hignsight.

''First you call Trotsky a fascist and then you attack him when he trys to prevent the Soviets from bowing to and negotiating with their greatest enemy the Fascists/Imperialists! HYPOCRISY!''

No the MIM is attacking Trotsky because Trotsky tried to encourange the Japense Imperialists to attack the Soviet Union, he was dissapointed when peace was made. And unlike ultra-leftist Trotskyites the Soviet Union was peaceful and did not go for hair brained schemes like 'Permanent Revolution' which would of mean't war with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan at the same time. Try reccomending that to Stavka in 1940.


''That is true but at what cost. The soviets pulled out of a disputed area of Mongolia that numerous Soviet soldiers had given their lives defending against the Japs all in vain because Stalin gave into the Japs.''

'That is true' good I'm glad you see atleast some truth. BTW I'm not sure about your claim that the Soviet's withdrew, source for that please.


''Where does it link the agents to Trotskyists?''

Sorry here's what should of been posted.

The Trots Lose Their Playground

In Catalonia in late '36 and early '37, the disorganization of production, inflation, lack of serious prosecution of the war, and growth of the communist parties (PCE and PUSC) combined to weaken and discredit the POUM and the FAI. Faced with the clear failure of their utopian theories, the Anarchist movement began to disintegrate. In September, '36, the FAI-CNT compromised their grotesquely anti-political principles and entered the Catalan Generalitat, along with the PUSC and Catalan Nationalist parties, with one delegate from the POUM.(72) Attacking the "Stalinists" for their advocacy of the Popular Front, the POUM was only too happy to be included in this one. Their incredibly sophistical defense of this action was that the "petty bourgeoisie" was collaborating with them, rather than vice-versa!(73)

In March, 1937, the central government ordered the confiscation of arms from the political parties(74); in Barcelona, measures were taken to curb the numerous street murders by the "uncontrollables"--thugs who had attached themselves to the FAI(75) -- and to disband the militia "police." The CNT and POUM declined to surrender arms or submit to the draft.(76)

Numerically insignificant, unable to build a base among workers and discredited by their "sheer inefficiency and incompetence all along the line,"(77) the political bankruptcy of the POUM was complete. Dropping any pretense of fighting the Fascists, the POUM decided for an all-out battle against the communists instead.

On May 3, 1937, Catalan police chief Rodriguez Sala and the Generalitat representative for the Telephone Exchange went to the Exchange’s censorship department to complain of anarchist interference with government phone calls. Anarchist militiamen, who had held the exchange since the start of the war, fired from an upper floor. Brief fighting ensued, which was stopped by an FAI leader. Rumors of a "provocation" spread among CNT members and barricades were erected throughout the city. As sporadic fighting began between CNT and PUSC members, POUM leaders proposed to FAI-CNT leaders that communists be expelled from the government and "Stalinist" influence be eliminated in Catalonia once and for all.(78) The POUM was turned down flat.(79) Supported only by a small Anarchist group called the "Friends of Durriti" and a section of the Libertarian Youth, the POUM called for the overthrow of the Generalitat and the establishment of a Revolutionary Junta. Anarchist leaders attempted to secure truce in the barricade fighting and eventually did so, after several false starts. The arrival of 4,000 Assault Guards from Valencia assured that it would continue. Total casualties were reported as 400 killed, 1,000 wounded.(80)

In the central government, the PCE demanded the suppression of the POUM for these crimes. Largo Caballero refused, but this was the last straw even for members of his own party. Largo was ousted and Socialist Juan Negrin became Prime Minister. The POUM was suppressed, and about 40 POUMists arrested. Treacherous POUM leader Andres Nin was apparently executed by Soviet agents, small retribution for the deaths in Barcelona.(81) Other POUMists were held for trial on charges of espionage, treason, fomenting the fighting in Barcelona, and removing troops under their command from the front to Barcelona. At the trial, the POUMists denied they had helped to provoke the fighting, conveniently "forgetting" the articles in their own newspaper, La Batalla.(82) They even denied commanding the troops that had left the front at Heusca, some of them forced to return to the lines by the threat of bombing their buses.(83) POUM "political secretary" Julian Gorkin was able to "remember" that La Batalla had reprinted a Fascist leaflet attacking the government which had been dropped over the lines. When Don Jose Gomis Soler, the public prosecutor, asked Gorkin why the source of the fascist leaflet was referred to in the tiniest type below the proclamation, Gorkin laughingly said: "This is a mere typographical matter."(84)

The accused were found innocent of espionage and treason; all except one were found guilty of the other charges and sentenced to various terms.

Were the POUM Leaders Franco's Agents?

The POUM leaders were accused by the PCE of being in the pay of Franco, and some of the incidents reported above indicate why this was plausible and widely believed in Republican Spain.(85) Plainly, the POUM earned their money, even if they didn't collect it.

On May 11, 5 days after the fighting began, Faupel, Hitler's ambassador to Franco, wrote:

"Concerning the disorders in Barcelona, Franco has told me that the street fighting was provoked by his agents. Nicholas Franco has confirmed this report, informing me that they have a total of 13 agents in Barcelona. Some time ago one of them had reported that the tension between Anarchists and Communists in Barcelona was so great that it could well end in street fighting. The Generalissimo told me that at first he doubted this agent's reports, but later they were confirmed by other agents. Ordinarily he didn't intend to take advantage of the possibility until military operations had been established in Catalonia. But since the Reds had recently attacked Teruel to aid the Government of Euzcadi (the Basque provinces), he thought the time was right for the outbreak of disorders in Barcelona. In fact, a few days after he had received the order, the agent in question with three or four of this men, succeeded in provoking shooting in the streets which later led to the desired results."(86)

Soon after the May fighting, a number of Franco agents were caught in Barcelona, and implicated Nin--perhaps for their own reasons.(87)''


''Basically yes, right on the mark Clay!''

So prove it.

[Cassius Clay]

''What happens when one deserts the army? Trotskys labor camp punishment was nice compared to a typical punishment for desertion which was death upon capture. If there is not a punishment why would people work in the industrial army anyway?''

I think you've just said enough with the above. The work place is not an army, socialism is about democracy not throwing workers into camps, which you call 'nice'. Yes you say 'compared' to the Army but there shouldn't be any comparision in the first place. 'Why would they work' exactly they wouldn't. They didn't in Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge killed 2 million because they turned up late to work or other trivial reasons. It's quite clear that you support Trotsky's outright Fascist ideology and I atleast give you credit for understanding Trotskyism.

''The end of the civil war meant the end of opposition not the end of private property. The disciplined workforces, the architechts of socialism are to be maintained until ALL private property is abolished and that means internationally.''

Yeah this would be a accurate description of Trotsky's ultra-leftism. Would you like to explain why nearly the whole party disagreed with this? From Lenin and Stalin to the rank and file who gave Trotsky less than 1% of the vote.

"Are you trying to suggest that the October Revolution followed Marx and that revision was not tolerated. This is a joke there were hundreds of things about the October Revolution that would make Marx roll over in his grave. The facts are for good or bad Leninism and the October Revolution are revisionist in character and contradict Marxism on many key issues.''

Well since you are a commited Trotskyite I won't argue with the above, it just shows me and others what the true face of Trotskyism is. 'Leninisim and the October Revolution are revisionist'.

"Engels admittedly was not trying to put Marxism into practice with his factories. They were to provide funds for a cause, not to be built on a Marxist model...''

No but what I said was that the Engles quote and Trotsky's quote is barely comparible. If Engles had agreed with what Trotsky wrote then surely he wouldn't of supported Marx and contribute greatly to Socialism. If he had agreed with Trotsky then he would of become the worst of the worst of Victorian era Capitlaists.

"This simply means Marxism in its truest form was not popular it does not mean it was not Marxism''

Not only is Marxism 'not popular' with Lenin but the entire party membership and non-party working class. Righttttttttttttttt.


''Marxism does scare those who are below comprehension of it. Marxism is not a happy nice philosophy of peaceful coexistence we take no prisoners and make no bargains. Militrization is a central pillar of this and if it scares people to bad get in the Gulag then for it is they who are the counter-revolutionarys''

Sigh, that was written by Lenin for crying out loud. It doesn't scare just 'Those who are below comprehension of it' (unless your saying Lenin was, but hey youv'e allready called him a revisionist) but every and anybody.


''Lenin Speaks


"Comrade Stalin, having become Secretary-General, has unlimited authority concentrated in his hands, and I am not sure whether he will always be capable of using that authority with sufficient caution. Comrade Trotsky, on the other hand, as his struggle against the C.C. on the question of the People's Commissariat of Communications has already proved, is distinguished not only by outstanding ability. He is personally perhaps the most capable man in the present C.C"

Oh no Lenin doesn't think Stalin is up to the job of General secretary. Considering it was Lenin who nominated Stalin the first place and that Lenin wrote this at a time when Stalin and him had a row over personal matters it hardly portrays a accurate history of things. Not to mention that Lenin doesn't suggest anyone who could replace Stalin.

Yet you mention nothing of Lenin's great criticisms of Trotsky, 'Judas', 'Scroundrel' 'Right wing opportunist'. Tell me did Lenin write a entire article criticising Stalin? No he didn't, but he did of Trotsky. Anyway why are you quoting Lenin? He is afterall just a 'Revisionist' and 'Can't comphehend Marxism'.

"At last an admission of defeat, I have you beat on this one, Labor Armies are a central pillar of Marxism, opposition to them is revisionist. Concede defeat Stalinist revisionist.''

I know your only 14 but grow up.