Communism in Africa?

[Dr Mindbender]

As its the least privileged continent in the world you'd think africa would be a hotbed of communist sentiment yet it seems Eastern Europe and Latin America have led the world in that respect.

Other than Angola have there been any successful African communist/socialist experiences forged?

Why is communism not more popular in Africa than the material circumstances dictate?

[comrade stalin guevara]

Mozambique, ethiopia had communist revolutions
the south african communist party is in the ruling
co-alition

[Yehuda Stern]

Your misconception is that being unprivileged makes people more likely to become revolutionists, but that's not true. Actually, in many cases, working class people are better off than much of the lower middle class and the lumpenproletariat. The reason why there aren't any large revolutionary organizations in Africa is that the working class is very weak because of the decayed nature of the African societies, caused by imperialist oppression. In the two African countries that do have a sizable, stable working class - South Africa and Nigeria - there actually are quite powerful reformist movements (SACP, COSATU, Nigerian Trade Union federation [forgot its name], etc.).

[comrade stalin guevara]

Your misconception is that being unprivileged makes people more likely to become revolutionists, but that's not true. Actually, in many cases, working class people are better off than much of the lower middle class and the lumpenproletariat. The reason why there aren't any large revolutionary organizations in Africa is that the working class is very weak because of the decayed nature of the African societies, caused by imperialist oppression. In the two African countries that do have a sizable, stable working class - South Africa and Nigeria - there actually are quite powerful reformist movements (SACP, COSATU, Nigerian Trade Union federation [forgot its name], etc.).


Nicely said pravda.:thumbup1:

[Dr Mindbender]

what is the solution then?

How can we unleash the revolutionaries in the african people?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

African workers need to alter there culture.

From my expirance alot of African culture is very moralistic and traditionalist. More progressive culture needs to be implemented one which does not have the "respect your betters" attitude which i have found in the Nigerian community.

Also prehaps left wing education on communism etc (not targeting kids but adults) which shows the alternative and prehaps in some areas some autonomey could be set up (in areas were it would be difficult for the state to stop it) to prove that communism works.

If anyone else has had a different expirance with African culture please tell. These were my expirances and for all i know i could have being unlucky and spent a few weeks with the "I love authoritarian" society of Nigrea.

Edit: Oh and pointing out the obvious that liberal aid programs will accomplish nothing and have string covered in shite and blood attached

[Magdalen]

Then of course, there are the massive tribal divisions which would need to be overcome in order to built a united socialist movement.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Then of course, there are the massive tribal divisions which would need to be overcome in order to built a united socialist movement.

Depends on the area of africa you are talking about. Rural darfur might have tribal ares but industrialized nigrea does not.

But yeah the formation of tribes which in some cases act as "micro" nations do a very good job of keeping the Proletariat divided.

[Raoul_RedRat]

First of all I think it is wrong to generalize the African continent, as far as I'm concerned there is as much similarity among African countries as there is between European countries. Meaning there is at face value a lot of similarity because there are some historical similarities in certain regions, or there is an heritage that didn't fall within the current nation-state borders.

As soon as you zoom in there are profound differences in why certain African countries are in their current state of affairs, ranging from religious factors, tribal factors, demographic factors to neo-colonialistic influences (the BRIC countries), post-colonialistic influence or trauma (e.g. Zimbabwe, South Africa) and developmental mishaps.

If you really would want to generalize in answering the question why communism hasn't been widespread among the African continent. I would say that most African countries are so intertwined in "our" capitalistic abuse that they are left completely unable to become counscious their part and ability to revolte. In a sense Africa has the problem of dealing with a distant bourgeoisie, namely the West.

I hope this point is clear, if not please ask before reacting I sometimes can be unclear at first even if I try to be as clear as possible. :)

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

First of all I think it is wrong to generalize the African continent, as far as I'm concerned there is as much similarity among African countries as there is between European countries. Meaning there is at face value a lot of similarity because there are some historical similarities in certain regions, or there is an heritage that didn't fall within the current nation-state borders.

As soon as you zoom in there are profound differences in why certain African countries are in their current state of affairs, ranging from religious factors, tribal factors, demographic factors to neo-colonialistic influences (the BRIC countries), post-colonialistic influence or trauma (e.g. Zimbabwe, South Africa) and developmental mishaps.

If you really would want to generalize in answering the question why communism hasn't been widespread among the African continent. I would say that most African countries are so intertwined in "our" capitalistic abuse that they are left completely unable to become counscious their part and ability to revolte. In a sense Africa has the problem of dealing with a distant bourgeoisie, namely the West.

I hope this point is clear, if not please ask before reacting I sometimes can be unclear at first even if I try to be as clear as possible. :)

While its true that africain leaders/ boses have a tendency to be puppets. Africa still has a bourgeoisies. (Your point on not generalizing a whole contestant was spot on).

It seems that the African working class have even more obstacles than there international counterparts. Its a mixture of cultural , economical and governmental factors which make revolution difficult.

[Pogue]

I think most people have such bad lives that they're spending too much time fighting to survive to think about politics, let alone organise for it. But theres alot of people who are organising in a way to benefit themselves, like the co-operatives involved in the Fairtrade movement. I reccomend the film Black Gold to learn about this. Very interesting.

[Yehuda Stern]

what is the solution then?

How can we unleash the revolutionaries in the african people?



Just because the revolution probably won't start from most African countries does not mean they won't spread to them. Remember, the Bolshevik revolution took power in many agricultural countries that were even more backward than Russia. "Revolutions do not respect borders." In this case, the revolution could come to the majority of African countries through South Africa and Nigeria, or maybe the Arab North.

[RHIZOMES]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Communist_countries.PNG/800px-Communist_countries.PNG

Red ones are/were "communist".

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

That map isn't the best.. For one, Burkino Faso, where one of the most thoroughgoing revolutions Africa has ever seen occurred, isn't included.. Nicaragua and Grenada -- where revolutions took place that were on the way to overthrowing capitalism before being overturned -- also aren't on the map.. etc., etc.

[RHIZOMES]

That map isn't the best.. For one, Burkino Faso, where one of the most thoroughgoing revolutions Africa has ever seen occurred, isn't included.. Nicaragua and Grenada -- where revolutions took place that were on the way to overthrowing capitalism before being overturned -- also aren't on the map.. etc., etc.

Yes, but it does show that it's bigger than people in this thread were assuming it was.

[Yehuda Stern]

Not really. It's just that I don't consider regimes of the Mengistu type to be communist.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yes, but it does show that it's bigger than people in this thread were assuming it was.

Of course.. but I just wanted to point that out.

Besides the various independence struggles which were communist inspired/led, capitalist property relations were overthrown or on the way to being overthrown through revolutions in Angola, Somalia, Ethiopia, Mozambique and Burkino Faso.

[tormenta]

dont you all think you're being incredibly eurocentric? talking about african culture like its a backward abstraction.

indigenous culture has been made compatible with communist ideology and movements. eg Biko's Black Consciousness Movement in SA not to mention the way african values played out in the black liberation struggle in the US????? the posts so far border on racism with their callous disrespect for the richness of the african tradition. after all, dialectical materialism can be found in its original, non-western form in many african cultures and other indigenous cultures throughout the world!

yes, its crucial for marxism to fuse with all peoples of all regions of the world. but do not characterize africa as inherently unsuited for revolution.

[Yehuda Stern]

No one said Africa is unsuited for revolution at all, least of all for its culture. But as a Marxist, a materialist, I explain that the main reason for the lack of a strong Marxist movement in Africa is that its working class is very small and weak. How is that racist?

[Red Phalanx]

Tormenta, why would you accuse a comrade of racism like that? I thought Yehuda Stern's analysis was good. Why do you want to point fingers and divide people like that?

[Guerrilla22]

To call Somalia a former socialist state really is a stretch. Marxist ideology really wasn't adhered to by the government, although they professed to be socialist and were an ally of the USSR.

[Dominicana_1965]

To call Somalia a former socialist state really is a stretch. Marxist ideology really wasn't adhered to by the government, although they professed to be socialist and were an ally of the USSR.

The Somali Revolution of 1969 had overthrown the capitalist state and capitalist property relations. The means of production were nationalized and a new (although bureaucratic) state was constructed. Despite Somalia being bureaucratic socialist it still made many gains in regards to education, (like opening the first Somali university and increasing school enrollment rates), health, food and even tribal issues. The problem came when the Somali bureaucracy, under the guidance of U.S. imperialism started to give in to chauvinist sentiments of rebuilding "Greater Somalia". The U.S. utilized this as a way to crush the Ethiopian Revolution through the Ogaden War.

Capitalist restoration began by 1977 when Somalia started to ally itself with the imperialists and accept IMF and World Bank "adjustments".

[John Lenin]

Latin America is much further along and has a more condusive environment for Communism in my view.

Many places in Africa are too loyal to the idea of "tribe" or ethnicity, and lack any class awareness.

[Guerrilla22]

The Somali Revolution of 1969 had overthrown the capitalist state and capitalist property relations. The means of production were nationalized and a new (although bureaucratic) state was constructed.

Yes some gains were made and a good portion of the economy was nationalized, although the economy was so small, nationalization did not have that great of effect because most of Somalia remained undeveloped and the overwhelming majority of people still got by from raising private livestock.

[Yehuda Stern]

To call Somalia a former socialist state really is a stretch. Marxist ideology really wasn't adhered to by the government

But this is not the criterion anyway, neither is nationalization. The criterion for a state being a workers state (and calling a state which exists before all capitalist states have been overthrown socialist shows a true ignorance in Marxist terms) is that the conscious, advanced workers have crushed the old state apparatus and have come to power in their own state. This has only happened once in history, in the Bolshevik Revolution.

[YadaRanger]

Africa has been the place in the world hit the HARDEST by class conflict, and is still being hit today. There is very small ethnic and social groups holding VAST sums of property and wealth. The reason they are able to do this is because they have the might of country's like France, Belgium, UK, German, and the US behind them. There has always been struggles against this, some that were successful and some that were not. But i think that the most important thing to note is that there WERE struggles. And Africans KNOW what going on, there not dumb, they are living it. Look at Rwanda. What sparked the violence there at its root was not ethnic hate, though thats what it became, as it often does. It was the Tutsi and "moderate" Hutus (bourgeois) response against the reforms there were taking place in favor of the majority Hutu and minority Tutsi who were in the poor working class. Rwanda is a PRIME example on almost every conflict in Africa including dafar in Sudan. Its really really interesting and i strongly suggest that you wiki Rwanda becuase the info is really good on the page.

I have hope for Africa still because 1) as i said, the struggle is there, and its so obvious to African masses. And 2) (maybe im being too hopeful) But organizations like the ANC and SACP have expressed interest in helping other African nations. And, this might even be more far-fetched, but Hugo Chavez, who is very proud of his African ancestry, in the spirit of Freedom fighters like Che and Nelson may seek alliances with left wing groups in Africa.

Country's like Ghana and Nigeria and so on need to try to balance out the imperial powers that be and make Africa for Africans.

personally, I have a uncle who lives in sudan-kenya, and my girl friend is from Rwanda and has family there, so someday id like to move to africa and do something revolutionary. plan 1 is to someday start a international school for higher learning with highlights in sociology and the like. plan 2 would be to start a small-medium commune that would grow food for ourself and sell the extra for 300% cheeper then what the big growers sell it for to the locals to help stimulate the economy. Every little bit helps.

your thoughts.:crying:

[YadaRanger]

Latin America is much further along and has a more condusive environment for Communism in my view.

Many places in Africa are too loyal to the idea of "tribe" or ethnicity, and lack any class awareness.

sorry but i totally disagree with that. the "tribes" in Africa have become classes in most parts because the white men favored different groups over others. If you look up the history of Rwanda and DR congo and Zimb and so on you will see that the cultural difference between the groups are almost not there. The Tutsi and Hutu speak both speak kinyarwanda and have NO cultural differences.

I dont mean to bash you what so ever. But the history of african Tribes since the 1830s has been a brutal history of class conflict. If your intressed in class conflict, which im sure you are. Then i suggest you look that history up. (though it is hard to find.)

[ships-cat]

African workers need to alter there culture.....


Ahhh... it's good to see the old Imperialist instinct lives on :D


Has anyone not noticed that what happened - for the most part - when African countries threw of their European Imperial/Colonial oppressors ?

They reverted back to tribal loyalties and social structures. These are VERY resiliant in most parts of the continent, even in the nations that seem nominally democratic. (Look at what happened in Kenya recently, for example).

Good luck trying to impose a marxist dialectic on them comrades. You'd have about as much luck as you've had in the Middle East.

Meow Purr :)

[YadaRanger]

once again i totally disagree. The tribal and social structures were put in place my the imperialists for 500 years after they favored certon minority groups. They stuck with that after the imperialists "left" because they had the economic power.

Im really surprised you guys dont know all of this already, the history of class conflict in Africa over the last 500 years is like no other. But the word Tribe and class are really no different in Africa (in most parts). If anything its like the differance between lower bourgeois and higher.:wub:

no disrespect. Africa is something im really passionate about and it just saddens me that we dehumanize them to the point of thinking they are some type of secular-pack-clique animals.:blushing:

[YadaRanger]

heres some quotes from Keynes on the power sharing solution:

That is a very good question. Is it not clear that the people who controls kenya's destiny and the whole world at large is the US AND GREAT BRITAIN? They really do know how to "intervene and control situations", just like the old times. Justice is treasure and if you get it, you are the luckiest man in the world.

wambui hebert, mombasa

since kenyans have learnt great lessons from their mistakes in fully imparting the western democracy in their african styled politics with out any scrutiny,kenya's problems can best be handled by the kenyans them selves with the guidance of the international community since they are the root cuases of their own problems.
the powersharing deal can be good on paper but poor in implimentation, it can only work with duly transparency, trust and respect to each party involved in the

sseruwu alex, kampala

[Yehuda Stern]

I doubt tribes have become classes, and that theory sounds dangerously similar to the Maoist theory that in the third world a popular and not proletarian revolution is needed. I'm sure you'll find that many tribes have their own 'better off', their own elites who wish to become incorporated into the ruling class, and whose interests are hostile to those of the people.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

African workers need to alter there culture.....

Ahhh... it's good to see the old Imperialist instinct lives on :D

...

Good luck trying to impose a marxist dialectic on them comrades. You'd have about as much luck as you've had in the Middle East.

Meow Purr :)

You're a fucking idiot - if you note the bolded part, you'll notice he said in no uncertain terms that it is the responsibility of African workers to advance their culture, not to have that political advancement externally imposed on them by Western Marxists.

Africans, being modern humans just like "Westerners" are fully capable of such unassisted advancement given the right conditions (EG not being distracted by foreign exploitation and tribal politics much like Western workers are distracted by bourgeouis exploitation and the circus show that is electoral politics).

Also, I'm pretty sure plenty that most Middle Easterners who happen to be Marxist are such of their own accord.

[BIG BROTHER]

I personally think that Africa has been the most pillaged region in the world. Unlike America(and i mean the continent not the dammed country), Middle East, and Asia the imperialist powers have made it really hard for the African countries to develop from an agricultural economy to an industrial one. This is in my opinion due to the fact that Africa was for the longest time under "official" European domination. And this of course like other comrade said on the start of this tread means that although the people of Africa suffer miserably, the working class is small and weak.

[Dust Bunnies]

Africa is too weak to have a revolution, torn apart by tribes and poverty... Now if say the entire continent banded together there may be a chance.

[Connolly]

Domt forget "Africa's Che" Thomas Sankara of Burkina Faso

Thomas Sankara - THE UPRIGHT MAN - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a89KLSL30hE

Great guy!, very influential on african youth.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Indeed, Tom Sank was a great revolutionary. I mentioned Burkino Faso earlier in this thread in regards to a map of 'red states' that didn't include it.

[The Intransigent Faction]

sorry but i totally disagree with that. the "tribes" in Africa have become classes in most parts because the white men favored different groups over others. If you look up the history of Rwanda and DR congo and Zimb and so on you will see that the cultural difference between the groups are almost not there. The Tutsi and Hutu speak both speak kinyarwanda and have NO cultural differences.

I dont mean to bash you what so ever. But the history of african Tribes since the 1830s has been a brutal history of class conflict. If your intressed in class conflict, which im sure you are. Then i suggest you look that history up. (though it is hard to find.)

Agreed 100%.
Using your example of Rwanda, the Belgian colonists favoured the Tutsi, and as such formulated a theory of alleged ethnic differences, and created a cultural divide. By the time the Belgians left Rwanda, there were tribal tensions culminating in a genocidal response by the Hutu extremist Interhamwe militia.
A bit oversimplified, but I don't have any more time.