Nietzsche and the Superhuman

[Decolonize The Left]

One of the secondary pillars of Nietzsche's thought was the superhuman (Ubermensch) - the primary pillars being eternal recurrence, and the will to power. I use the word "superhuman" as opposed to the more common "superman/overman" because the German word was gender-neutral.

What is the superhuman? This has been much debated over the years, and it's time we took the debate to revleft. So, for those of you who have read Nietzsche, what are your thoughts?

If you haven't read Nietzsche, reading "Zarathustra's Prologue" in Thus Spoke Zarathustra will provide the easiest primary text regarding the superman. Though I highly recommend reading the entire book and more, should you only wish to familiarize yourself with his writing and the superhuman, that would be the place.

- August

[Lynx]

Megalomania?

[gla22]

The ubermensch is presented as the next step int the evolutionary stage. The ubermensch has a higher consciousness than man today thus comparison between men and apes and the ubermensch and man. I saw Zathustra describing the ubermensch as a being that rejects god and is capable of critical thinking.

It is debatable if people now can become the ubermensch or if it requires evolution. It is also debatable whether people can become ubermensches or if they are born that way. By rejecting religion, morality and being able to think critically without societal constraints a person may be able to become an ubermensch. It has nothing to do with racism or creating class differences. Do we offer chimps the same rights as man in a communist society? Neither does the ubermensch offer the common man in future (hypothetical) society.

[shorelinetrance]

The overman isn't evolutionary, anyone can become an "overman".

It's about becoming a fully aware human being as gla said becoming aware that morality and religion are really just traps and are not absolute guidelines for living, it's transcends capitalism "last man".
I recently read thus spoke again and the three metamorphoses of the spirit is a good description of how one inside can transform into an "overman" through contemplation alone and the pursuit of knowledge.

I can see why some would say its evolutionary because this quote.


What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment…It merely emphasises the paradigm shift of consciousness, not how its purely evolutionary.

[gla22]

Ok thanks shorelinetrance. i was between those two theories. I think many of us here are on our way to becoming the overman. Sort of like a path to enlightenment. I see people who believe in God as foolish. Don't you?

[shorelinetrance]

I think many of us here are on our way to becoming the overman. Sort of like a path to enlightenment.
I can't remember where nietzsche said that capitalism breeds a last type of man, the vain, the petty, the stupid, greedy etc etc.

nietzsche certainly wasn't a leftist, i see him as very apolitical but he obviously observed the failings of a capitalist system in aspects of human consciousness.


I see people who believe in God as foolish. Don't you?I don't really know how to answer that, i hate coming off as one of those militant atheists but yes i find it incredibly foolish.

[Decolonize The Left]

I recently read thus spoke again and the three metamorphoses of the spirit is a good description of how one inside can transform into an "overman" through contemplation alone and the pursuit of knowledge.

The child is not the superhuman - the child is the bridge to the superhuman. I dealt with this more thoroughly in the other Nietzsche thread.


Ok thanks shorelinetrance. i was between those two theories. I think many of us here are on our way to becoming the overman. Sort of like a path to enlightenment. I see people who believe in God as foolish. Don't you?

Believing that the becoming the superhuman is becoming enlightened, or that we are on some sort of path to enlightenment is just as "foolish" as believing in God.


I can't remember where nietzsche said that capitalism breeds a last type of man, the vain, the petty, the stupid, greedy etc etc.

Yes, he called it "the last man." The last man is Nietzsche's characterization of all philosophies/ideologies that posit egalitarian values. The last man is content with a little of this, and a little of that, nothing in excess but just enough for satisfaction - the last man looks at the world he has created an 'blinks.'
The blinking aspect is key for it artistically signifies that the last man has no opinion, no creative will or drive - merely observes and dies. No doubt that the last man lives a healthy life, and is comfortable and safe - but Nietzsche placed the last man in direct opposition to the superhuman.

- August

[shorelinetrance]

observes and dies. No doubt that the last man lives a healthy life, and is comfortable and safe - but Nietzsche placed the last man in direct opposition to the superhuman.the last man observes?

quite the contrary, observation leads to critical thought Isn't the ability of critical thought at the very core what the overman is? the last man does not do these things, as you said this is why it is in opposition.

and now i understand why the child is the "bridge" as it says the child is the "Wheel" and "a first motion" and "yes"

[Yehuda Stern]

The way I understood it - and I have read Thus Spoke Zaratustra long ago, so this may not be a 100% - the conception of the Ubermensch is that one great man must rise up and lead humanity forward, as opposed to the Marxist conception of classes fighting to change history. In this sense, the Ubermensch is the theoretical basis for the fascist conception of the leader.

[Decolonize The Left]

the last man observes?

quite the contrary, observation leads to critical thought Isn't the ability of critical thought at the very core what the overman is? the last man does not do these things, as you said this is why it is in opposition.

The last man observes because he/she is not a creator, does not propel their own will forward. The last man is passive - observation does not necessarily lead to critical thought.

And the "core" of the superhuman is tricky because Nietzsche never quite clearly explained what he meant. So I would agree that it involves critical thinking, but I would not place so much emphasis on it. As far as I'm concerned, in terms of Nietzsche's language, work for the child. Or, as he says: "Shoot one's arrow of longing beyond one's horizon."

You will not be the superhuman - the superhuman comes about when the child gives birth.


and now i understand why the child is the "bridge" as it says the child is the "Wheel" and "a first motion" and "yes"

Good. This is vital to understanding Nietzsche.


The way I understood it - and I have read Thus Spoke Zaratustra long ago, so this may not be a 100% - the conception of the Ubermensch is that one great man must rise up and lead humanity forward, as opposed to the Marxist conception of classes fighting to change history. In this sense, the Ubermensch is the theoretical basis for the fascist conception of the leader.

No, this is not correct. Firstly, Nietzsche had no interest in "leading humanity forward." He did have an interest in becoming, and furthermore, becoming beyond nihilism - but he would not have phrased things in such simple terms.

In communist/Marxist terms, the superhuman comes about when capitalism has collapsed and socialism has thoroughly eroded the state. The superhuman is that human which is born in a truly free society - a communist society. I can safely say that there will probably be no superhuman before communism - simply too many problems to bring about such a free being.

In Nietzschean terms, we would have a society of 'children' leading the way towards the revolution - though Nietzsche would be less concerned with a material revolution and more concerned with a psychological one, but we know that these go hand in hand.

- August

[IAmLeviathan]

ive been reading Nietzsche for the last few months and have found him very interesting and entertaining. I think as with much philosophy interpretation is down entirely to the individual, but the purpose is personal growth.

i understood the concept of the Ubermensch to be a practical ideal. For example, if it is your desire to be the greatest pianist of all time, then you dedicate all of your time to becomming a great pianist. whether you achieve this or not is irrelevent - it has been a life well spent in which you completely and utterly chased your ambition and strived towards a goal. Which ties in very well with the eternal recurrence.

I certainly think it has nothing to do with one man stepping forward to "lead society". thats a horrible idea. Its not about an elite of people, the status of the ubermensch is attainable to all.

to me its about personal growth and development, to become all you can be.

:thumbup:


edit: i have used the word "understood" at the beginning of paragraph two. this is not to say that i do not see other possible interpretations, just that the way in which i have attempted to assimilate this concept into my own life has been within the practicalities of my own existence (ive started to take the guitar a bit more seriously - jazz and classical rather than just being able to play every Clash song). The idea of the ubermensch being free thinking is also essential to the concept.

[gla22]

In Nietzschean terms, we would have a society of 'children' leading the way towards the revolution - though Nietzsche would be less concerned with a material revolution and more concerned with a psychological one, but we know that these go hand in hand.


They lead the way to the revolution because after being able to critically analyzes society you are not bound to the historical and social restraints and customs passed down from antiquity. When a large enough populace realizes this they will seize the world for them, in the now because the customs and archaic traditions of past society will have no bearing on them.

[IAmLeviathan]

I see people who believe in God as foolish. Don't you?


i used to be very disparaging about people i knew who were religious. these days i just see it as human, i think its quite a sweet. people want their lives to mean something and facing upto a completely indifferent universe can be a difficult thing to do. the nutjobs who kill each other over it ive not time for, but the average church goer (my mums one), i think theyre just looking for some comfort. who are we to deny them that?

[shorelinetrance]

but the purpose is personal growth.

That is why neitzsche is incredibly important to existentialism, most of his practical ideas are focused on improvement of the self, ie shrugging off dogmatic values, creating your own meaning etc etc.

[Le People]

What is the deal with the critical thinking, the idea that destruction of values is accompanied with the advent of the overman? The destruction of values comes with the metamorphisis of the lion, or to my intepretation, the complete nihilist. The overman is the one who creates new values, for themselves, of course, in order to be the best they can be.

[Decolonize The Left]

What is the deal with the critical thinking, the idea that destruction of values is accompanied with the advent of the overman? The destruction of values comes with the metamorphisis of the lion, or to my intepretation, the complete nihilist. The overman is the one who creates new values, for themselves, of course, in order to be the best they can be.

I don't know where you're drawing the "destruction of values" from... Nietzsche wrote about the "revaluing of values." There is a huge difference.

Furthermore, the lion is needed to provide freedom for the child. The lion fights the 'thou shalt', or the 'you should,' i.e. those values which do not originate from the self (which are imposed from society/culture). The lion does not destroy 'all' values, only those which are not its own. By doing so it creates the freedom necessary for the child, who then revalues the values according to its own will.

And the lion is most certainly not the "complete nihilist." If it was, it would never make it to the child...

The superhuman comes about when a society of 'children' creates an atmosphere and social structure free enough to bring about the superman.

- August

[shorelinetrance]

that destruction of values is accompanied with the advent of the overman?

No, the realization that imposed values as august said "don't originate from the self" is crucial. How can you have the destruction of values when the overman is about creating new values?

The lion is the lion for the sole reason of that realization.

"the values of a thousand years glitter on the scales" i interpret that as the lions realization that all imposed values are not from himself i don't see him as a complete nihilist, the lion cannot create new values but can see that all values don't come from himself which is essential to the creation of the child.

[gla22]

You have to free yourself from old values and history before you can look at the situation critically and form new values, a new society. One not grounded in the past one grounded in the now and the future.

[shorelinetrance]

You have to free yourself from old values and history

and how do you do that without thinking critically about the world around you?

you do not go from christian to atheist (bad example) without thinking critically.

[gla22]

and how do you do that without thinking critically about the world around you?

you do not go from christian to atheist (bad example) without thinking critically.


you have to think critically. I never said you didn't have to.

[Le People]

Yes, the lion seeks to defend against the values imposed upon the individual by society; to this I can concede. However, one must realize that Nietzsche viewed the world as being meaningless, a nihilistic void. That is a harsh reality that Nietzsche sought to overcome, not through despair but rather perserverence. To discard that the lion is a nihilist is foolish to me, for in order to understand why we must discard society's values, for new ones, one must realize their inherent meaninglessness. Perhaps nihilism should be viewed in a historical context. In Feudal Europe, the Church ruled the masses' belief. However, with the advent of the scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment, belief in the Church's dogma waned, creating a term I shall call "momentary nihilism". For a split second, as two different sets of values quaralled over their precedence, there was a view of unbelief at least in a segment of the philosophical community, this unbelief I would attribute to Sade. In a sense, I view the lion as that Sade, as that voice that says, "The perceptions of values are irrational, and harmful to the human spirit." Note, I have not fully developed this idea of momentary nihilism, so please bear with me.

[redarmyfaction38]

One of the secondary pillars of Nietzsche's thought was the superhuman (Ubermensch) - the primary pillars being eternal recurrence, and the will to power. I use the word "superhuman" as opposed to the more common "superman/overman" because the German word was gender-neutral.

What is the superhuman? This has been much debated over the years, and it's time we took the debate to revleft. So, for those of you who have read Nietzsche, what are your thoughts?

If you haven't read Nietzsche, reading "Zarathustra's Prologue" in Thus Spoke Zarathustra will provide the easiest primary text regarding the superman. Though I highly recommend reading the entire book and more, should you only wish to familiarize yourself with his writing and the superhuman, that would be the place.

- August can't be arsed to read nietzche, but i do have a thought about man and superman.
surely, the whole point of being a revolutionary is to raise humankind above the constraints of capitalist society, to enable the growth in knowledge and undestanding that only a socialist society could deliver.
surely, once all material needs are met, the general populace will be free to discuss, to debate and research, socialism will NOT lead to the ending of philosophical and religious debate but to a more widespread engagement.
the flourishment of mankind.
god or no god, we have the future in our own hands.

[Decolonize The Left]

Let me say I'm sorry for forgetting about this thread - my apologies.


Yes, the lion seeks to defend against the values imposed upon the individual by society; to this I can concede. However, one must realize that Nietzsche viewed the world as being meaningless, a nihilistic void.

Objectively meaningless - yes. Subjectively meaningless - hardly. The whole point is to construct one's own life meaning and overcome nihilism.


That is a harsh reality that Nietzsche sought to overcome, not through despair but rather perserverence. To discard that the lion is a nihilist is foolish to me, for in order to understand why we must discard society's values, for new ones, one must realize their inherent meaninglessness.

I disagree. It seems as though to understand why we must discard society's values we need only realize that they are not our own. It is irrelevant what the meaning of these values 'actually' is, as their meaning is determined by our relationship to them.


Perhaps nihilism should be viewed in a historical context. In Feudal Europe, the Church ruled the masses' belief. However, with the advent of the scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment, belief in the Church's dogma waned, creating a term I shall call "momentary nihilism". For a split second, as two different sets of values quaralled over their precedence, there was a view of unbelief at least in a segment of the philosophical community, this unbelief I would attribute to Sade. In a sense, I view the lion as that Sade, as that voice that says, "The perceptions of values are irrational, and harmful to the human spirit." Note, I have not fully developed this idea of momentary nihilism, so please bear with me.

I will certainly bear with you. But you would do well to read Nietzsche's idea of "the death of God." What you have here called "momentary nihilism" he expands into a far greater account of humanity's evolution and meaning. If you wish, I would be happy to detail my understanding of this concept, but for the sake of brevity I will refrain from doing so.

- August

[gla22]

Objectively meaningless - yes. Subjectively meaningless - hardly. The whole point is to construct one's own life meaning and overcome nihilism.100% right. Existentialism is paramount. His philosophy is nihilist in the sense that we are asked to destroy all values, yet the individual is asked to create his own. In Zarathustra he put alot of emphasis on "creators."