Do we actually stand a chance?

[Mindtoaster]

Right, a few comments/quesitons on Antifa.

So today I was watching the movie "The Believer", which is about a Jewish neo-nazi bonehead and his struggles between the two ideologys. Throughout the movie however, I was once again shown the advanced experience and training that Neo-Nazi and fascist groups receive in body-building, hand to hand combat, weapons use, and other such fighting tactics. Its not just in the movies that you get a glimpse at their paramilitary training. A quick search on youtube will yeild hundreds of documentaries and home-made videos showing fascist scum in their training; and frankly, this scares the shit out of me.

There are virtually no videos of "Antifa Training" or anti-facists working out or doing any target practice. The only videos that come up when you search for those are home-made videos made by Nazis which poke fun at our lack of training. How are we expected to actually fight against the Nazis?

Most things I hear about "Antifa beating down the nazis" were actually events where antifascists
1) scream at a group of Nazis from behind a wall of riot police
2) attacks riot police, Fascists are miles away
3) a group of about 10+ Antifas beat down one or two lone boneheads

Now, before I continue I know there are a few exceptions with skinhead groups such as SHARP and RASH, but the bulk of antifa seems to be pretty weak, in the literal sense of the word. I'm sure there would be more interest in antifa if we could stand-up and put a better fight up against nazi thugs. Groups of twenty antifascists attacking a group of five boneheads will garner no respect from anyone, and will get us fucked over in the end.

I would of typed more, and probably will later. I had some more thoughts but I'm exhausted right now and forgot them.

So, my questions are:

1) Are there antifa groups/cells that provide any form of paramilitary/street-fighting training. This can range from body-building to live-fire weapons training and anywhere in between.

2) Do you think that antifascist groups should provide this type of training and why or why not?

3) Do you think that many potential antifascists see us as unable to stand-up against the boneheads and are therefore detracted from the movement?

4) What should be done to improve our abilities to combat (physically) fascism?

I'm sorry if this all came across as really harsh, but frankly I'm starting to get very worried, especially with our comrades in places such as Russia being killed off. :(

[RaiseYourVoice]

1) Are there antifa groups/cells that provide any form of paramilitary/street-fighting training. This can range from body-building to live-fire weapons training and anywhere in between.

I know in Germany there used to be groups who devoted their lives to beating up Nazis and also training for that. In my area i know none though, i doubt many survived.

2) Do you think that antifascist groups should provide this type of training and why or why not?

Depends on the Group and what kind of training. I am all in for self-defence training like krav maga, boxing, Wing Tsung or whatever, it can be helpful in the streets. Body-building is pretty useless without self-defence training. As for weapons that is not possible in my country, but it could be useful. The problem is that every hour you spend training is one that you cannot do political work. That is ok if you do self-defence a few times a week, but thats far from "paramilitary training". Antifa is not a gangwar with skinheads! It's a political battle in which it CAN be useful to attack the other side but it's much more important to win over the working class, to stop their demonstrations, to allow more people take part in antifa protests. So as long as the group it able to continue political work on a good level training is a good idea, but you should never sacrifice political work for paramilitary training.

3) Do you think that many potential antifascists see us as unable to stand-up against the boneheads and are therefore detracted from the movement?

There might, but I don't need that kind of people in my movement. Strength and honour ideologies have nothing to do with antifa. The much bigger problem i see is the USELESS militant behaviour. I have heard many people who told me "isn't that antifa just a bunch of violent kids anyway?" and I had to convince them that antifa is more than making youtube videos about your last "action". Gang behaviour is hurting our movement, NOT being the "weaker" gang.

4) What should be done to improve our abilities to combat (physically) fascism?

Self defence training. And getting a clear working class focus.




In the end a few notes. Don't let youtube videos fool you, the nazis aren't all that great. Those that post youtube videos about themselves training in the woods all day are of no use for their movement. Also I have been at many demonstrations where nazis got their asses kicked so don't worry it happens when needed. I am actually happy that no one posts videos of that on the internet, that would be like calling for the police to bust people.

[jaffe]

Right, a few comments/quesitons on Antifa.

So today I was watching the movie "The Believer", which is about a Jewish neo-nazi bonehead and his struggles between the two ideologys. Throughout the movie however, I was once again shown the advanced experience and training that Neo-Nazi and fascist groups receive in body-building, hand to hand combat, weapons use, and other such fighting tactics. Its not just in the movies that you get a glimpse at their paramilitary training. A quick search on youtube will yeild hundreds of documentaries and home-made videos showing fascist scum in their training; and frankly, this scares the shit out of me.
These movies are made because they want to intimidate people. Luckily for them it worked for you.


There are virtually no videos of "Antifa Training" or anti-facists working out or doing any target practice. The only videos that come up when you search for those are home-made videos made by Nazis which poke fun at our lack of training. How are we expected to actually fight against the Nazis?
Why should we videotape this?


Groups of twenty antifascists attacking a group of five boneheads will garner no respect from anyone, and will get us fucked over in the end.
Where do you live?
There is no such thing as a fair fight in the streets. If you don't do it they will do it to you when they have the chance.



1) Are there antifa groups/cells that provide any form of paramilitary/street-fighting training. This can range from body-building to live-fire weapons training and anywhere in between.
Yeah some guys learn martial arts. But 'we' are not a paramilitary group. I'll leave those forrest trainings to the scum.


2) Do you think that antifascist groups should provide this type of training and why or why not?
I think everybody should learn how to defend themselves. You can learn it together with a few mates if you want to.


3) Do you think that many potential antifascists see us as unable to stand-up against the boneheads and are therefore detracted from the movement?
Why because there is chance you get you're face smashed in? Well if you don't fight fascism you will get your face smashed when things work out bad.


4) What should be done to improve our abilities to combat (physically) fascism?

I think that's something everyone has to decide for himself. You can learn martial arts like MMA, kick ore Thai boxing. Also you can learn self defence systems like krav maga (watch out a lot of cops also train in this so big chance half of your class consists of pigs) systema etc.

[Sasha]

i agree with jaffe and RYV, and i do recomend getting fit and doing some form of martial arts training. If not for being able to confront the fash it wi'll be healthy and usefull in an whole range of other moments. I would strongly advice people though to do a real sport like (thai/kick-)boxing, MMA, taekwando, kraf mega, karate etc and make sure its full-contact or at least semi-sontact. There is no point wasting you'r prescious time on "5 point death touch" religion like wing-tsung or useless midlle class "femminist" self defence classes.
if it doesn't hurt you'r not training...

and of course the mayority off fash will always be bigger, meaner and have more fighting experience than us (since most left wing are a. midle class and b. have better things to do than picking fights every night) that's why we must take them on when we have the advantage in numbers and keep them small and in check.

[K.Bullstreet]

I really think you are mistaken Mindtoaster.

Alot of the fascists try to portray themselves as tough Aryan supermen. The truth is, that most of the time they are not. As Jaffe and RYV have said, YouTube means nothing, anything can be posted on their to make a group of people look alot tougher than others etc. It really does not matter how big or scary a fascist is, they are also people and they can also be taken down. It isn't about having the better training or being more macho than fascists, it's about the big people and the little people standing together, ordinary people kicking the fascists out of their communities.

You will find that many anti-fascists take part in physical training, or in a fighting sport/martial art. In some areas of Europe where the situation with the fascists is very dangeous (for example Russia and other Eastern European), Antifa groups do take part in training camps, self defence training and so on.

Here is a quote from 'Bash the Fash - Anti-fascist recollections, 1984-1993' about AFA in Britain, to finish off with.

"The best anti-fascist combatants are those with the most ‘bottle’ (nerve), not necessarily those with the biggest physiques"

There is also a better one about two small anti-fascists working together and taking down a huge skinhead bruiser, but I can't find that quote. :rolleyes:

[Sasha]

"The best anti-fascist combatants are those with the most ‘bottle’ (nerve), not necessarily those with the biggest physiques"

yup, never seen the original photo that was the basis for the good night white pride logo?

http://media.de.indymedia.org/images/2006/11/160851.jpg

be'ing big got not much to do with that...

[Pogue]

When/where was that photo taken?

[K.Bullstreet]

The US of A I do believe. An ARA march/action? :confused:

[Mindtoaster]

I didn't mean to put as much emphasis on Youtube as I did in the original post. It was brought up because I did a quick skim before I made this thread, forgeting that I can't post links...

@RYV - What you said grabbed my interest. I suppose that to a degree, The Red Army Faction could be considered one of those groups... Which is certainly something we don't want to immitate. I suppose that in a way I would just like Antifa to provide some self-defense courses and what not to its members, like the boneheads do to their own. I suppose I just wish that Antifa could be a group that immigrants, minorities and other such opressed people could call upon when they're being harassed by the fash, since the police suck at this.

@Jaffe - Convincing me to seek some sort of self-defense/paramilitary training to fight boneheads, probably isn't what they're shooting for with their intimidation tactics.

Once again, didn't mean to put so much emphasis on youtube

[redSHARP]

one phrase "R.A.S.H". these guys are paramilitary on some levels and can train and do train. i might a bit biased though.

[jaffe]

@RYV - What you said grabbed my interest. I suppose that to a degree, The Red Army Faction could be considered one of those groups.
RAF was an urban guerilla group with even some antisemitism among its ranks.


I suppose that in a way I would just like Antifa to provide some self-defense courses and what not to its members, like the boneheads do to their own. I suppose I just wish that Antifa could be a group that immigrants, minorities and other such opressed people could call upon when they're being harassed by the fash, since the police suck at this.
In Germany in the beginning of the 90's antifascists went to help immigrants who were attacked by neo nazis and local villagers. The police stood there for several days but did nothing.

[RaiseYourVoice]

suppose that in a way I would just like Antifa to provide some self-defense courses and what not to its members, like the boneheads do to their own. I suppose I just wish that Antifa could be a group that immigrants, minorities and other such opressed people could call upon when they're being harassed by the fash, since the police suck at this.
Well that is different. Once i manage to get my Krav Maga trainers license (should be another 2-3 years since i can't train too much cuz of work etc.) I will definetly start some community self-defence course for anyone who isnt a cop or a nazi and try to put some political aspects to it. But i think you are expecting too much, most antifa groups i know aren't even doing the minimum community work mostly cuz the "community" isnt "radical" enough or isnt smart enough, has prejudices etc. etc. I guess if i start that it will be with my communist party.

Its important though to teach people, not just train the local antifa. Everywhere i know antifa should concentrate on political work, not be the private security agency.

[Holden Caulfield]

^^ i agree with this.

but if you want to 'train' what is stopping you starting or joining an antifa group and doing it yourself. i go to the gym and have fell walked with my antifascist buddies, not for a training program but for a bit of exercise and bit of banter in the group.

we keep fairly fit, a couple of the lads do thai boxing, i often go for jogs, i dont think we need 'training' if we all just keep up a good level of fitness for the sake of that.

[optimist]

being fitis important in rallies and large scale confrontations with the police,but when it comes to streetfights with fashists it's important to have some kind of selfdefence training,modern like kravmaga or traditional like wing tsun.in germany it was a time when the martial arts schoolswas full of young immigrants(late80s early 90s)because it was vital for them in order to comfront nazi skinheads attacks on the streets.

[AntifaHooligan]

I know Red and Anarchist Skinheads provide combat training.

[Hawk_]

Think of all the gangs in bad areas of cities.

[freakazoid]

While I agree that is is important to make sure that you do not slow down on the politcal work, but it is also important to be ready for when the time comes when more violent action is necessary. Remember, the neo-nazis and such do join the army to be grunts so they have combat experience and training. And to the OP, you might find this thread interesting, http://www.revleft.com/vb/setting-up-militia-t54170/index.html? it is close to the same thing as what you are suggesting but it also makes sure to not slow down on the political work, :)

[Red Phalanx]

The fascists are an iceberg, 75 percent of them are below the surface. Many of you might be startled at the number of fascist militia groups there are and at the amount and quality of weaponry they possess. Too many of my own comrades dismiss the idea of buying weapons and almost none of them wanto to do training.

What scares me as much is that the fascists seem to be growing in numbers.

[Dystisis]

Not all power comes through the strength of muscle or training, you know. Just a tip. Fascists might be organized in their training, etc. but the public may still hate them, so they get nowhere. If the nazis beat the antifa on the streets one day, that doesn't necessarily get them a step closer to actual power.

This is really localized though, some places may have a bigger problem with nazis than others. In my experience the nazis are limited in power and number (although they may be well trained), while the resistance is a whole lot broader. Actually, it is probably the other way around in some locations (but not worldwide).

[RHIZOMES]

Nazis like scaring people. Cheers on buying into it.

Man, a few skinheaded freaks posting threatening videos on Youtube may stop the revolution from happening guys!

[Holden Caulfield]

Nazis like scaring people. Cheers on buying into it.

Man, a few skinheaded freaks posting threatening videos on Youtube may stop the revolution from happening guys!

^ we are discussing it, we have a lot of younger and inexperienced comrades in this forum that need told the facts how they are from those who have seen the truth.

i dont see the point of your post,

[RHIZOMES]

^ we are discussing it, we have a lot of younger and inexperienced comrades in this forum that need told the facts how they are from those who have seen the truth.

i dont see the point of your post,

I'm just also pointing it out.

Also you wanna know the real reason why Stormfront is so much bigger than Revleft?

Because leftists are actually out in the real world doing real things. :lol:

[freakazoid]

Nazis like scaring people. Cheers on buying into it.

Man, a few skinheaded freaks posting threatening videos on Youtube may stop the revolution from happening guys!

http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.lib.unc.edu/mss/inv/htm/04630.html Here is a sentence taken out of it,

On 3 November 1979, members of the Ku Klux Klan and Nazi Party attacked Communist Workers Party (CWP) demonstrators as they gathered for a public march in Greensboro, N.C. Five CWP members were killed and eleven others were injured.


Newspaper accounts revealed that Klansman Ed Dawson, who had organized and led the Klan on 3 November 1979, was a paid Greensboro police informant and past FBI informant. In another investigation, a Greensboro newspaper discovered that Bernard Butkovich, an undercover agent of the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF), had infiltrated the Nazi unit involved in the attack. Butkovich participated in a pre-attack planning meeting and encouraged at least one Nazi to bring guns to Greensboro.

Here is another link, http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.ictj.org/static/GTRC.FinalReport/09.1979.sequence.eng.pdf

They are a threat


Also you wanna know the real reason why Stormfront is so much bigger than Revleft?

Because leftists are actually out in the real world doing real things. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/laugh.gif

I don't know if that was merely supposed to be sarcastic or if you meant it. But, the neo-nazis are a growing problem, http://current.com/items/84906361_from_russia_with_hate There is another video somewhere but I can't find it showing how they are growing in popularity here, and not just the violent kind, these are the intellectual type handing out leaflets and stuff without it being obviously pro white nationalism but trying to appeal more to workers and how things like immigrants are taking there jobs.

[Red Phalanx]

Never, never, NEVER underestimate the fascists. Learn from history, they defeated the largest communist party in Europe and unleashed a terrible war that claimed millions of lives. Too many leftists come from affluent backgrounds and tend to talk down to working class people. The fascists also have great appeal to many working class people who should be with us.