How can capitalism fix the race problem? [Archive]

Labor Shall Rule

27th July 2008, 23:42

Today, Blacks experience the following:

-Black infants are nearly two-and-one-half times more likely than white infants to die before their first birthday.

-Nearly one-third - 32% - of African Americans do not have a regular doctor.

-Nationally, half of all black neighborhoods lack access to a full-service grocery store or supermarket.

-One every three black males born today can expect to go to prison in his lifetime.

-Across the United States, over 10 percent of Black drivers stopped by police were likely to be searched or have their vehicle searched, as opposed to 3.5 percent of white drivers stopped by police.

-Basic housing is out of reach for the more than 24 percent of African Americans who live in poverty. A full-time worker making minimum wage could afford a typical apartment in only four out of all 3,066 counties in the United States.

-Seventy-five percent of citizens who receive welfare live in central cities or rural areas, but 66 percent of entry-level job growth is in the suburbs.

-More than one million African American men, or 13 percent, have currently or permanently lost their right to vote as a result of a felony conviction-seven times the national average.

-African American, Latino, and Asian farmers are now going out of business 3.25 times more frequently than white farmers.

-African Americans have a median net worth of $5,998, compared to $88,651 for whites. Even more alarming, 32 percent of African Americans have a zero or negative net worth.

-The number of African Americans in unions has fallen by 14.4% since 2000, while white membership is down just 5.4%.

African slave-labor, when met with the rich agricultural belt in Virginia, built the modern capitalist economy of the United States. After 'emancipation' and Jim Crow, they are still instrumental to providing cheap, unskilled labor in certain 'jobs that people won't do' such as food processing and related services.

The question now is - what is the OI'er consensus on fixing the race issue?

More Fire for the People

27th July 2008, 23:53

I'm pretty sure we both already know the answer. For the right-wing of capital, there is no race problem and African American problems stem from their culture or individual outlook (i.e. rightists labelling Blacks "lazy", "whiners", or telling them to "get over it" in reference to slavery). The left-wing of capital wants to encourage Blacks to "adjust" to contemporary capitalism by providing welfare, education, and management positions.

Bud Struggle

28th July 2008, 00:08

Of course it's easty to blame it on "the man." But here's an interesting article about Black immigrants from the Caribbean succeeding nicely while their native Blacks counterparts don't.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18390590/

I know personally--I own a good number of strip malls and I rent space to a lot of Blacks from the Islands or from Africa--I have almost no renters that are African American.

Is it a race issue or an American issue?

comrade stalin guevara

28th July 2008, 00:20

capitolisim cant fix the race problem,
it is the race problem

Sir Comradical

28th July 2008, 00:30

Where did you get that data?

Bud Struggle

28th July 2008, 01:17

capitolisim cant fix the race problem,
it is the race problem

OK. Can we take that a bit slower--for those of us that don't understand Communist shorthand. :)

comrade stalin guevara

28th July 2008, 01:31

Divide and conquer,
has always been capitolist policy
even today they use it in iraq with shias and shites

Capitolisim invented racisim,
and continues to exploit it.

Killfacer

28th July 2008, 01:33

capitalism cannot solve the race problem. I'm pretty sure no one has ever claimed this anyway.

Socialist18

28th July 2008, 02:00

Capitalism doesn't solve anything in my opinion, all it does is suppress rights and degrade people and make the filthy rich richer.

534634634265

28th July 2008, 05:41

i hope to see all people live equally and freely.:)
that being said, i've lived in the ghetto and i can tell you from ONLY MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, that people are stuck in a "woe is me" mindset. plenty of enterprising and driven minorities make it out of the slums, but lots don't too. what kinds of heroes or role models do children in slums have? gangster rappers from the same slums, thats who. and by and large, their elders seem happy to say "we're oppressed, we can't change it".:closedeyes:maybe we need more outreach to the poorer neighborhoods, but until we combat the idea that change is impossible, those statistics will only get worse.

(OPINION)blacks and other minorities are more likely to be stopped because they're more likely to be involved with crime. as a economically challenged racial group, quicker and easier money can be had through illegal activity than through working inside the system. white kids commit crime too, but Johny McW.A.S.P's daddy can afford to have a lawyer take care of it more often minority family can. i made the most money ever selling pot, and it was all tax-free. i never even had to leave my house which, in hindsight, would have been a good way to keep from getting robbed.:rolleyes:

SEK3

28th July 2008, 08:38

Divide and conquer,
has always been capitolist policy
even today they use it in iraq with shias and shites

Capitolisim invented racisim,
and continues to exploit it.

In modern day State capitalism in US, which is a fascist corporate nightmare, this might be true. But in true free-market capitalism, where business is neither helped nor impeded by the State (ideally there would be no State), how does anyone profit off of racism? Profit being the goal of businessmen in the marketplace.

SEK3

28th July 2008, 08:41

capitalism cannot solve the race problem. I'm pretty sure no one has ever claimed this anyway.

The free-market would go a long way to assuage racism, but I don't see that any system would ever get rid of it entirely.

pusher robot

28th July 2008, 14:20

Capitolisim invented racisim

This may be the dumbest thing I've read so far this year.

Chapter 24

28th July 2008, 14:23

This may be the dumbest thing I've read so far this year.

Yes... I agree actually.

Dr Mindbender

28th July 2008, 18:09

it capitalism isnt the original source of racism, what is?

My understanding is that racism as a concept started around the time of the slave trade as a rationale to justify its imposition. The slave trade is clearly, one of early capitalism's activities.

Prior to then, slavery had no ethnic dimension. Under the Romans and various other empires slaves were treated with equal contempt regardless of their race.

pusher robot

28th July 2008, 18:35

My understanding is that racism as a concept started around the time of the slave trade as a rationale to justify its imposition. The slave trade is clearly, one of early capitalism's activities.

I don't think that's justifiable. You might plausibly argue that "scientific" racism arose around the same time as the expansion of European colonialism, but that has more to do with the general rise of science itself coming out of the middle ages that made the colonial expansion possible in the first place.

Are you seriously arguing that until modern history, humans did not often consider their own ethnicity to be superior to other ethnicities? That seems to me to be patently absurd.

Dr Mindbender

28th July 2008, 18:43

Are you seriously arguing that until modern history, humans did not often consider their own ethnicity to be superior to other ethnicities? That seems to me to be patently absurd.

I think prior to the slave trade, there was a high centricity within particular imperial jurisdictions but nothing resembling 'racism' as we understand it. The Roman example to me is the one that sticks out, because they welcomed all people within their dominion for the most part as equals, on the understanding they shared their values and agenda. By those standards, Rome was very liberal because rather than trying to enforce its cultures it amalgamated other peoples and beliefs into its tapestry. It would have been a very multicultural place.

Places like Egypt, Im not so sure about. Even latter empires like Napolonic France seems it was more about lust for land, wealth and influence than about pushing any sort of racial supremacy agenda.

pusher robot

28th July 2008, 19:08

I think prior to the slave trade, there was a high centricity within particular imperial jurisdictions but nothing resembling 'racism' as we understand it. The Roman example to me is the one that sticks out, because they welcomed all people within their dominion for the most part as equals, on the understanding they shared their values and agenda. By those standards, Rome was very liberal because rather than trying to enforce its cultures it amalgamated other peoples and beliefs into its tapestry. It would have been a very multicultural place.

Well, I think that using Rome as your set of sample data is a bad idea for two reasons:

1. Cherry-picking. I completely agree that, for its time, Rome was by far the most progressive force around. But it was precisely because it was unique in this regard that it was so successful. You're essentially picking (arguably) the most advanced society that ever existed until recently and generalizing that onto humanity in general. How can you justify this?

2. Proves the opposite. Rome was also by far the most capitalistic society ever in human history to that time, complete with money, possessions, property, markets, contracts, rent, paid labor, and even financial banking! It was in many respects the most capitalist society ever to exist until probably the industrial revolution.

IcarusAngel

28th July 2008, 20:57

Bud Struggle

28th July 2008, 23:09

comrade stalin guevara may be wrong about capitalism "creating" racism, but he's right about the fact that the current US policy in Iraq is divide and conquer, plus, capitalism did create the most brutal form of slavery, that slavery that mixes capitalit conceptions of property, and slavery together.

In Iraq, the US failed to colonize the country, and so they're actually currently benefitting from the fact that Iran and Syria no longer fear Iraq, and Iran is thus calling on Muqtada al-Sadr to bring down his forces. The President of Iraq, Talabani, even brokered deals with the Iranians to draw down the forces, and of course Ahmadinejad can go to Iraq, announced, and unharmed, whereas Bush has to go unnanced and can only stay in "safe zones." The Iranians do not want sectarian violence among the Shia parties, and the US is allowing the Iraqi government to put down some of the other types of Shia resistence in Southern Iraq, who opposes the current Shia-Kurdish-Kawa formation in Iraq.

I don't have a clue what this has to do with this thread.

Plus, I would say that capitalism created a form of racism totally unlike anything in history with its property and racist classification of blacks, and has created modern "wage slavery," which is particuarly harmful to workers as well. OK, the whole "wage slave" thingie--but it has nothing to do with racism. There's plenty of whites and Chicanos in the (theoretical) "wage slave" situation. As a matter of fact the Blacks in America fall below the "wage slave" situation. A good number of them--as the OP stated have dropped out of the system--how does that help the Capitalists?

Anyway, pure capitalism was even more racist than moderate capitalism, and while "free-marketeers" claim there is no benefit in racism there obviously is because it allows the corporations to manipulate workers to find out who will work for the lowest wage.

Are you suggesting Blacks? That's kind of racist in itself. And it isn't that Blacks anyway--it's the undocumented Mexicans that work for the lowest wages.

Thus, capitalists have an inherent self-intereset in promoting racism, as it will rise profits even greater. This argument that they make money by not being racist is ludicrous because it's anti-history, and when we didn't have anti-Civil Rights laws entire classes of people were discriminated against. Anti-history! that must be in book three of Das Kapital that I never got around to reading. :lol:

It's eaiser to divde and conquer, be it capitalism or imperialism, than effectively compete with your opponents or bring them into the mix. Capitalism gets BETTER through compitition. If there's no compitition--it's called Communism. And nobody around here is for that. :D

These totalitarian ideologies are all about the same thing, and "agorism" and "market capitalism" are thus nothing more than doublespeak and nonsense.

Here we can agree--people that know economics of any stripe never know how to make money. It's like MBA's--that's the degree you get when you want to work for a millionaire.

trivas7

28th July 2008, 23:14

I know personally--I own a good number of strip malls [...]

I don't believe you. Strip malls aren't owned by individuals.

capitolisim cant fix the race problem,
it is the race problem
Indeed. Human solidary knows no races.

534634634265

28th July 2008, 23:27

I don't believe you. Strip malls aren't owned by individuals.
ya, actually, they are. the individual rents out space to companies in the strip. look it up, but i'm pretty sure your pretty wrong. not a diss, just a fact.:blushing:

Indeed. Human solidary knows no races.
now thats a well stated point.:)

Bud Struggle

28th July 2008, 23:32

I don't believe you. Strip malls aren't owned by individuals.

OK, who do you think owns them--Martians, Communists, the French?

Listen: I buy a piece of land, I put of 20 storefronts--I rent them out. That's a strip mall.

So, what's your theory on stripmalls?

IcarusAngel

28th July 2008, 23:50

I don't have a clue what this has to do with this thread.

It has to do with the thread because pusher_robot acted as if comrade stalin guevara was an idiot who had nothing intelligent to say.

Are you suggesting Blacks? That's kind of racist in itself. And it isn't that Blacks anyway--it's the undocumented Mexicans that work for the lowest wages.

What the HECK are YOU talking about?

I was talking about capitalist slavery was the worst slavery in existence.

Read about how slaves were treated in America, and to a minor degree, in England, exactly because they were considered "property" like Libertarians believe in.

Pay particular attention to how the US got them over here in the first place.

Anti-history! that must be in book three of Das Kapital that I never got around to reading. :lol:

This is all confirmed history - it has nothing to do with it being a "Marxist" analysis, although Marx himself found American slavery deplorable, and even favored Lincoln over the South to some degree.

Capitalism gets BETTER through compitition. If there's no compitition--it's called Communism. And nobody around here is for that. :D

Why then did the Gilded Age lead to such consolidation of resources?

You have to define what you mean here. Capitalism generally creates monopolies through "competition," thus it would be worse for society, not better. The mergers that took place in the 1890s, and 1990s under Clinton, hurt the workers.

However, lots of competition is generally a good thing, but, a lot of resources wouldn't have been developed without companies like AT&T, who were state guaranteed monopolies, and thus had money to spend on R&D.

As with anything in capitalism, whenever "good" comes out of it it's usually a gamble, and could have been produced in free systems anyway..

Here we can agree--people that know economics of any stripe never know how to make money. It's like MBA's--that's the degree you get when you want to work for a millionaire.

Yes, ideological "capitalists" are some of the worst capitalists around.

The whole "Austrian school" is promoted by governments, not by people. Most economics departments get huge amounts of grants, yet produce little of value to society.

Bud Struggle

29th July 2008, 00:21

It has to do with the thread because pusher_robot acted as if comrade stalin guevara was an idiot who had nothing intelligent to say.

I might have missed that--fair enough.

was talking about capitalist slavery was the worst slavery in existence. Feudalism, Capitalism and Communism all had slavery. So your favorite is the Capitalist's slavery. Well--OK.

Read about how slaves were treated in America, and to a minor degree, in England, exactly because they were considered "property" like Libertarians believe in. Not much different than being on a collective farm in the SU, was it?

Pay particular attention to how the US got them over here in the first place. I agree--ugly stuff.

This is all confirmed history - it has nothing to do with it being a "Marxist" analysis, although Marx himself found American slavery deplorable, and even favored Lincoln over the South to some degree. Anti-history is like anti-matter: best taken in small doses.

Why then did the Gilded Age lead to such consolidation of resources? Bad freakin' Capitalism!

You have to define what you mean here. Capitalism generally creates monopolies through "competition," thus it would be worse for society, not better. The mergers that took place in the 1890s, and 1990s under Clinton, hurt the workers. I agree here--they hurt Capitalism, too.

However, lots of competition is generally a good thing, but, a lot of resources wouldn't have been developed without companies like AT&T, who were state guaranteed monopolies, and thus had money to spend on R&D. The phone business took off DRAMATICLY AFTER the breakup of ATT. It was a good move.

As with anything in capitalism, whenever "good" comes out of it it's usually a gamble, and could have been produced in free systems anyway..

Better a gamble than a sure bad thing.

IcarusAngel

29th July 2008, 00:31

The slaery was not as bad in feudalism or the state socialism in the USSR. (Interestingly, I had to debate with myself on whether or not to say "even the USSR," or "even feudalism," trying to determine which one would be worse, and decided to not use the word.)

People working on the collective were at least able to have their own homes and some of their own resources. Plus, they generally had access to the same health care and ecuation system others had access too.

In capitalism, not only were slaves treated badly, they were treated as mere property, i.e., inanimate objects that had no right to health care or of food or resources. If they did, it was the equivalent of a tool breaking.

And this combination of the "rent factor" and the profit motive made the chattel slave owners calculate their exploitation. At least in ancient slave societies, or in "castes," they were still considered people, not "three-fifths a person," or other such nonsense capitalists came up with.

In feudalism they may even have had quite a bit of resources, if I'm not mistaken.

Bud Struggle

29th July 2008, 00:47

The slaery was not as bad in feudalism or the state socialism in the USSR. (Interestingly, I had to debate with myself on whether or not to say "even the USSR," or "even feudalism," trying to determine which one would be worse, and decided to not use the word.)

I'll grant you --"not as bad" if you forgive the purges. But the crux of the isituation is that IT WAS THERE, in Communism.

People working on the collective were at least able to have their own homes and some of their own resources. Plus, they generally had access to the same health care and ecuation system others had access too. But again slaves.

In capitalism, not only were slaves treated badly, they were treated as mere property, i.e., inanimate objects that had no right to health care or of food or resources. If they did, it was the equivalent of a tool breaking. Ethical question here--at least the Capitalist's slaves KNEW what they were and why they were being used--not so much for the Communist slaves. They were lied to.

And this combination of the "rent factor" and the profit motive made the chattel slave owners calculate their exploitation. At least in ancient slave societies, or in "castes," they were still considered people, not "three-fifths a person," or other such nonsense capitalists came up with. Good point--and here we come to "color." And that's the desturbing difference between "slavery" and "racism". Italy is composed of decendants of slaves and Patricians, not much difference these days. Same with Russia with serfs, collective farmers, and aristocracy. Blacks are different--their slavery was based on color. Was that a factor of Capitalism--I don't know. inlike the Greek of Roman of Russian slaves--Blacks tWERE different. It was incidious, I'll grant you that.

In feudalism they may even have had quite a bit of resources, if I'm not mistaken.

The Catholic Church made sure that everyone knew that all men no matter their status--were children of God.

pusher robot

29th July 2008, 01:55

I was talking about capitalist slavery was the worst slavery in existence.

What is your basis for this claim? It's not even knowable, since reliable records on the subject barely go back further than a few hundred years. I put it to you that in fact it was not the worst slavery in existence, rather you only think so because it is undoubtedly the best documented slavery in existence.

This does not seem to me to be a productive avenue to attack "capitalism's" race record.

And this combination of the "rent factor" and the profit motive made the chattel slave owners calculate their exploitation.

Even granting this completely, this does not lead the conclusion you seem to be drawing. Consider: does the intelligent, profit-minded farmer mistreat his livestock? No, because to maximize exploitation of the livestock, what the farmer is after is productivity, and productivity is not usually enhanced by mistreatment and abuse. In other words, the farmer who keeps his hogs well-fed and healthy is emphatically not motivated by any desire to improve the hog's comfort for the hog's sake, nor is it out of any sense of duty or respect for the rights of the hog. He does it because healthy, well-fed hogs are more profitable than sickly, malnourished hogs.

I suppose I must categorically reiterate that I think human slavery of kind to be an atrocity against humanity. However, I must challenge the implicit assumption that the slaveowner's profit motive automatically translates into "the worst slavery ever."

Dr Mindbender

29th July 2008, 14:15

Well, I think that using Rome as your set of sample data is a bad idea for two reasons:

1. Cherry-picking. I completely agree that, for its time, Rome was by far the most progressive force around. But it was precisely because it was unique in this regard that it was so successful. You're essentially picking (arguably) the most advanced society that ever existed until recently and generalizing that onto humanity in general. How can you justify this?
Because during its peak, it was the dominant empire of the world and its influence covered most of the world's (by that time) charted peoples.

2. Proves the opposite. Rome was also by far the most capitalistic society ever in human history to that time, complete with money, possessions, property, markets, contracts, rent, paid labor, and even financial banking! It was in many respects the most capitalist society ever to exist until probably the industrial revolution.

Sure i understand, but it certainly wasnt capitalism as we know it. In which case it's not that relevant, because we were talking about racism which as far as i'm aware wasnt around in Roman days but came about post industrialisation, after capitalism was brought about.

534634634265

29th July 2008, 15:39

Sure i understand, but it certainly wasnt capitalism as we know it. In which case it's not that relevant, because we were talking about racism which as far as i'm aware wasnt around in Roman days but came about post industrialisation, after capitalism was brought about.

Romans were the first to implement the economic principles we now attribute to capitalism. they were a republic, and were the first well documented capitalists. (private banks, lending on credit, wage-slavery, oppression based on social class, etc.)
racism was rampant in roman culture. anyone not from europe, and the old empire specifically, was viewed as a backwards bumfuck who was little better than the savages and barbarians. anywhere you find nationalism, you will find racism. the belief in any sort of superiority will create reasons for that superiority.:rolleyes:

Dr Mindbender

29th July 2008, 15:47

Romans were the first to implement the economic principles we now attribute to capitalism. they were a republic, and were the first well documented capitalists. (private banks, lending on credit, wage-slavery, oppression based on social class, etc.)
racism was rampant in roman culture. anyone not from europe, and the old empire specifically, was viewed as a backwards bumfuck who was little better than the savages and barbarians. anywhere you find nationalism, you will find racism. the belief in any sort of superiority will create reasons for that superiority.:rolleyes:

erm yeah, thanks for backing my argument, 'comrade'. :blink: :rolleyes:

TheCultofAbeLincoln

29th July 2008, 19:28

Perhaps the better question would be, What are African-Americans doing wrong?

534634634265

29th July 2008, 21:09

Perhaps the better question would be, What are African-Americans doing wrong?
i lol'd.
a guy named "cult of abe lincoln", making a statement with implied racism?
i wish there was a "i shat bricks" emoticon.

Bud Struggle

30th July 2008, 00:46

Perhaps the better question would be, What are African-Americans doing wrong?

No implied racism here--you have to look at every facit of a problem to find the best solution to solve it. It may be the whites, it may be the Blacks--but realisticly it's a combo of both that make this problem so insidious.

(FYI Abe: your comment above probably got you restrincted,) but it makes sense. I work with plenty of Blacks--and the major attitude I see is half slavish syncophant and half rap rebel with out a clue. All fine and such--but blacks, as whites and everyone else has to realize, TILL THE REVOLUTION COMES, the world we live in is the world we live in--the rules are the rules. You want to fight them--be my guest, but chances are you won't come out ahead.

If you want to play by the rules--you can do pretty good for yourself.

As Barak Obama, or Colon Powell or Condi Rice.

534634634265

31st July 2008, 06:18

If you want to play by the rules--you can do pretty good for yourself.

As Barak Obama, or Colon Powell or Condi Rice.

OMFG Tom, if you don't see the implied racism in that statement im going to be shocked. play by the rules? what rules? the rules that the predominantly white power structure has maintained for a few hundred years? thats like ending slavery only to introduce jim crow laws. its playing by the rules right?
i can't believe someone as intelligent as you would make such a statement.:ohmy::thumbdown:

Die Neue Zeit

31st July 2008, 06:19

WASPs: White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestants

534634634265

31st July 2008, 06:43

Schrödinger's Cat

31st July 2008, 13:41

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2921983#2921983

While we're on this topic, I'd like to continue my line of posts outlining funny (or darn gross) things capitalists say. What can outdo an anarcho-capitalist telling me war will resolve problems in his envisioned system. That Rush Limbaugh is the equal to Plato?

Well, here it's - sex slavery isn't as bad as racial slavery.

Astute thinkers! :thumbup:

Shekky Shabazz

31st July 2008, 13:57

Surprised I didn't see it mentioned yet, the most obvious action that could be taken immediately is to end prohibition of drugs.

What is the standard RevLeft view of this? (outside of OI)

Bud Struggle

31st July 2008, 14:04

Tomk, i think maybe you have been in a station of relative comfort for too long. i mean no disrespect, but to say that the playing field is equal, and that blacks need only participate is wrong.
take a break from your managerial duties at the factory and go do some volunteer work at a black church or at a foodbank/shelter in the ghetto. see what living as a black male is like. blacks are targeted unnecessarily by police, because they are more likely to be involved in crime, because they are more likely to be disenfranchised and poor.
they are also more likely to lack many of the options and choices you and i, as WASP's and petit-bourgeois, take for granted. i don't blame you for being in the position you are, i was at one point too, but to stay blissfully ignorant of the difficulties your fellow man faces is wrong.
blacks aren't half-syncophants and uncle toms. they are (the majority) culturally repressed and dumbed down after years of shadow oppression.

Oh I see it all the time. And it is a huge problem and the only say out of it is education. The general education of most (not all of course) blacks is a lot lower than that of whites. There is not a general drive for educuation in most black homes and black culture truly sucks at pushing black kids into studying and going to college.

The other problem with the black community is that of broken homes--which leads both to poverty and to truant children.

Now do the police target blacks more than whites--yes. But do blacks commit a disproportonate amount of crime--yes. The cops follow the crime. Now AS to crime--who is the victim of most black crime--blacks. To a good extent, the police are PROTECTING innocent blacks from crime.

So why all the crime? Is black crime about stealing food? Nope--it's the other big problem of the black community--drugs. Most black crime is drug related. I volunteer in a prison--and I don't know the actual statistic, but most black crime violent and non violent have some sort of drug connection.

That's no the case in the non-American black community. Blacks from Jamaca or Africa (FYI: Obama's father came from Africa and Powell's father came from Jamaca) don't have the drug, education and broken home problems and they actually exceed whites in the % of business opened and in success rates.

On the other hand--is there racism? I guess. It might be subtle--I certainly have never heard anyone say, "let's keep down the Blacks!" I also know that when we lived in my my wife was a SVP at a major financial institution and she used to fight like crazy to hire a qualified black for any job--she just could find enough qualified blacks to fill her quotas.

Essentially there are problems with society--but the black community has to do its part in getting itself out of the whole it's in.

pusher robot

31st July 2008, 15:01

Surprised I didn't see it mentioned yet, the most obvious action that could be taken immediately is to end prohibition of drugs.

What is the standard RevLeft view of this? (outside of OI)

I don't know what the standard view is, but realistically it would be a mixed bag. You might end up with fewer minorities arrested for drug crimes, but that doesn't do any good if their addictions continue to spiral out of control and they end up getting arrested for more serious crimes.

What would make a positive difference with very little downside would be the legalization of marijuana.

Shekky Shabazz

31st July 2008, 15:42

I don't know what the standard view is, but realistically it would be a mixed bag.

I didn't quite clarify. What is the the general opinion of drug prohibition on Revleft outside of OI, not specific to racial implications. Probably a little off topic, so if anyone has a link that'd be fine.

You might end up with fewer minorities arrested for drug crimes, but that doesn't do any good if their addictions continue to spiral out of control and they end up getting arrested for more serious crimes

Alcohol and nicotine are two very addictive substances, there isn't an epidemic of crimes commited in pursuing these habits.

What would make a positive difference with very little downside would be the legalization of marijuana.

No doubt it's a good first step. Though a problem with it's implementation would likely arise with new regulations on what should be a very simple transition away from prohibition.

pusher robot

31st July 2008, 16:03

Alcohol and nicotine are two very addictive substances, there isn't an epidemic of crimes commited in pursuing these habits.

Well, first of all, neither is as destructively addictive as things like heroin or meth. Especially alcohol, which consumed in moderation by people not genetically predisposed to alcoholism, is barely addicitive at all. Second of all, leaving aside crimes like DUI and disorderly conduct, the U.S. Department of Justice Report on Alcohol and Crime found that alcohol abuse was a factor in 40 percent of violent crimes committed in the U.S. So to say there's no connection between alcohol abuse and crime is absurd. It just happens to be one we tolerate because alcohol is so beneficial in moderation.

No doubt it's a good first step. Though a problem with it's implementation would likely arise with new regulations on what should be a very simple transition away from prohibition.
Maybe. On the other hand, we have a perfectly good regulatory scheme and enforcement bureaucracy already in place, the one for tobacco. All you'd have to do is place marijuana in the same category as tobacco.

pusher robot

31st July 2008, 16:12

Alcohol and nicotine are two very addictive substances, there isn't an epidemic of crimes commited in pursuing these habits.

You know, I guess I may have stated that wrong. It's not getting arrested that's likely to be the biggest problem. The concern is that many harder drugs are so addictive and so dangerous, you have to be willing to accept the fact that some people will utterly destroy themselves, their lives, and the lives of their families for the sake of drug abuse, and if it's legal, there's really nothing you can do about it - it's just the price of a free society. I guess I could agree to go along with this - after all, with freedom comes responsibility - as long as we are willing to fully face and accept the consequences that will occur.

Chapter 24

31st July 2008, 16:17

Maybe. On the other hand, we have a perfectly good regulatory scheme and enforcement bureaucracy already in place, the one for tobacco. All you'd have to do is place marijuana in the same category as tobacco.

Why? Studies have shown that marijuana, even after smoking a large amount of it for years, does not cause cancer, unlike cigarettes. If it did come in pre-rolled "joint packages" in the market, legally, then maybe there should be a warning label on some of its effects (i.e., do not drive under its influnence). But why would there be a need to have a bueaucracy enforced on it like there would be with tobacco products?

Shekky Shabazz

31st July 2008, 16:45

PR, I'll start a new thread in the near future on drug prhibition. Continuing here about the specifics would only hijack this thread further, being new here I'm not sure how that is looked upon.

On topic, eliminating mandatory minimum sentencing would be another obvious change.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

31st July 2008, 19:30

i lol'd.
a guy named "cult of abe lincoln", making a statement with implied racism?
i wish there was a "i shat bricks" emoticon.

Isn't it at least somewhat pathetic than blacks needed to be freed, as opposed to freeing themselves?

TheCultofAbeLincoln

31st July 2008, 19:38

OMFG Tom, if you don't see the implied racism in that statement im going to be shocked. play by the rules? what rules? the rules that the predominantly white power structure has maintained for a few hundred years? thats like ending slavery only to introduce jim crow laws. its playing by the rules right?
i can't believe someone as intelligent as you would make such a statement.:ohmy::thumbdown:

Obviously the majority of African-Americans give their consent to this system. If they didn't, they might be politically active.

What I want to know is, how the fuck was slavery even possible? I mean, seriously, were they unable to count?

For example, why didn't this conversation ever happen:

"Hey Guys, I'm tired of being whipped. Now, those songs we sing in the field are great and all, but the next time that motherfucka' whips me, I'm gonna wait 'til he moves on and give him a piece of my ho."

"But you'll be Tortured! Castrated!"

"Not if the 500 of us take on the 15 of them......and if I die, well, so be it."

I'm not saying that slavery was good, or that Jim Crow or anything else was justified. But seriously, it wasn't until the 1960s that a truly popular black empowerment movement came around. And that wasn't exactly a lasting experiment, unless you count the calls for reperations as being anything more than pathetic. (You've never heard of the families of the hundreds of thousands of young men who gave their life for the freedom of African-Americans ask for anything these days)

edit: I'm noty saying this because I dislike blacks. I'm saying it because I'm disappointed in the black community as a whole.

534634634265

31st July 2008, 19:39

Isn't it at least somewhat pathetic than blacks needed to be freed, as opposed to freeing themselves?
:blink::blink::blink:
isn't it at least somewhat pathetic that tibetans in china need to be freed, as opposed to freeing themselves?:blink:

isn't is at least somewhat pathetic that women in the early 20th cenntury needed to be freed, as opposed to freeing themselves?:blink:

isn't it at least somewhat pathetic that chinese workers in california needed to be freed, as opposed to freeing themselves?:blink:

see how easy it is to let prejudice unduly influence your opinion on any given subject? how many oppressed peoples actually did free themselves, without any support? i think your ignorance is showing, friend.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

31st July 2008, 19:54

:blink::blink::blink:
isn't it at least somewhat pathetic that tibetans in china need to be freed, as opposed to freeing themselves?:blink:

Lol comparing the necessary requirements for successfull revolution in the 19th century to a 21st century police state is just a tad over the top.

But that's not the point. Tibetans aren't free, but they're not slaves. They have something to lose.

isn't is at least somewhat pathetic that women in the early 20th cenntury needed to be freed, as opposed to freeing themselves?:blink:

Once again, women weren't slaves. Being whipped wasn't part of being a woman (neccesarily). Besides, every major early-20th century feminist was a woman, no?

isn't it at least somewhat pathetic that chinese workers in california needed to be freed, as opposed to freeing themselves?:blink:

They weren't slaves.

see how easy it is to let prejudice unduly influence your opinion on any given subject? how many oppressed peoples actually did free themselves, without any support? i think your ignorance is showing, friend.

There is no prejudice.

Tibetans, women, and the Chinese workers organized and will hopefully have equality.

African-Americans sat in slavery and sang songs for centuries. Unlike all the other groups you listed, they are probably the only one that could have launched a successfull revolution (at least in the south), yet they did, on a large scale, jack shit until the 1960s.

Hell, you call for revolution NOW. Do you honestly have any hope that can happen when a population of that size was literally whipped, beaten, and forced to do hard labor everyday for hundreds of years by a smaller minority....AND DID NOTHING???

534634634265

31st July 2008, 20:14

Lol comparing the necessary requirements for successfull revolution in the 19th century to a 21st century police state is just a tad over the top.
are you kidding me? the tibetans tried resisting chinese oppression for years, and it wasn't just in the 21st century. china has oppressed the tibetan people since the 1900's. also, that comparison is no more over the top than your blatant racism, which is likely why your restricted.

But that's not the point. Tibetans aren't free, but they're not slaves. They have something to lose.

and black slaves didn't have anything to lose? only their lives, and the lives of others.

Once again, women weren't slaves. Being whipped wasn't part of being a woman (neccesarily). Besides, every major early-20th century feminist was a woman, no?

NO. do some research, i'm loathe to do it for you. and being whipped, beaten, raped, and publicly shamed with no legal recourse WAS part of being a women then.

They weren't slaves.

the chinese workers weren't slaves?! did you just wank off during all your history classes? the chinese workers were forced at penalty of death to work in unsafe conditions for up to 16 hrs a day. please go read a book, any book, it will probably make you smarter.

African-Americans sat in slavery and sang songs for centuries. Unlike all the other groups you listed, they are probably the only one that could have launched a successfull revolution (at least in the south), yet they did, on a large scale, jack shit until the 1960s.

you are an idiot. there were multiple slave uprisings, which were all BRUTALLY REPRESSED. blacks who were uninvolved were killed JUST AS AN EXAMPLE to others, to discourage them from similar actions. you think blacks sat and sang songs?! maybe, but those songs were coded messages about how to find the underground railroad. and for every slave that ran away or escaped more were beaten, mutilated, and killed as a result of that escape.

Hell, you call for revolution NOW. Do you honestly have any hope that can happen when a population of that size was literally whipped, beaten, and forced to do hard labor everyday for hundreds of years by a smaller minority....AND DID NOTHING???
:blink:....
your ignorance is of such caliber that i find words hard to express my disgust. please stop breathing, as you're clearly wasting that air. slaves were psychologically broken from the moment they were captured, or bought. have you ever been to a black history museum? have you ever seen what that "minority" did to them? your not just a tool, your a huge sack of hammers.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

31st July 2008, 20:23

are you kidding me? the tibetans tried resisting chinese oppression for years, and it wasn't just in the 21st century. china has oppressed the tibetan people since the 1900's. also, that comparison is no more over the top than your blatant racism, which is likely why your restricted.

Perhaps they should amend there tactics, then"

and black slaves didn't have anything to lose? only their lives, and the lives of others.

So you're saying freedom wasn't worth dying for?

Why the fuck should I support a Revolution, then?

NO. do some research, i'm loathe to do it for you. and being whipped, beaten, raped, and publicly shamed with no legal recourse WAS part of being a women then.

Not necessarily. There was a minority of women who, unfortunately, were raped or beaten.

Every single slave was whipped and beaten, though.

the chinese workers weren't slaves?! did you just wank off during all your history classes? the chinese workers were forced at penalty of death to work in unsafe conditions for up to 16 hrs a day. please go read a book, any book, it will probably make you smarter.

Bullshit.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Chinese in China?

you are an idiot. there were multiple slave uprisings, which were all BRUTALLY REPRESSED. blacks who were uninvolved were killed JUST AS AN EXAMPLE to others, to discourage them from similar actions. you think blacks sat and sang songs?! maybe, but those songs were coded messages about how to find the underground railroad. and for every slave that ran away or escaped more were beaten, mutilated, and killed as a result of that escape.

Really? How come John Browns experiment got him nowere?

Running away doesn't count as fighting oppression, I'm afraid.

your ignorance is of such caliber that i find words hard to express my disgust. please stop breathing, as you're clearly wasting that air. slaves were psychologically broken from the moment they were captured, or bought. have you ever been to a black history museum? have you ever seen what that "minority" did to them? your not just a tool, your a huge sack of hammers.

Yes, it's clear that blacks accepted their place in society at the time.

534634634265

31st July 2008, 20:29

i'm not arguing with you anymore. its pointless and it forces my blood pressure to unnecessarily high levels.

Pirate turtle the 11th

31st July 2008, 21:31

Perhaps they should amend there

Yes, it's clear that blacks accepted their place in society at the time.

Apart from you know.

Brazil (Crushed by allowed the development of run away settlements) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quilombo_dos_Palmares)
[/URL][U]Haita (did well and led to creation of Haitian republic) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti)

Panama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimarron_people_%28Panama%29)

Jamaica (crushed but raised moral of slaves) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacky%27s_War)

Suriname (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_%28people%29)

Caracao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tula_%28Cura%C3%A7ao%29)

Venezula (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119629967/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0)

Barbados (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussa)

Guyana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demerara#Notable_Demererans)

Jamaica (again) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_War)

Loads inside the united states (including john browns)

And a load others you can find at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_rebellion

Accepted there place my arse.

534634634265

1st August 2008, 01:27

Joe, its not worth it. you've begun arguing with a brick wall.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

1st August 2008, 02:59

Think for yourselves...After 500 years of racial oppression, you know what my generation did about it?

Not a Damn Thing!

Malcolm X, Address to the Mississippi Youth

Pirate turtle the 11th

1st August 2008, 10:54

Think for yourselves...After 500 years of racial oppression, you know what my generation did about it?

Not a Damn Thing!

Malcolm X, Address to the Mississippi Youth

That would because even at that time black had a few more rights then they once had. Its like when you pay your workers a bit more but still a lot less then they should get they will shut up for a while.

Socialismo_Libertario

2nd August 2008, 02:20

Divide and conquer,
has always been capitolist policy
even today they use it in iraq with shias and shites

Capitolisim invented racisim,
and continues to exploit it.

I hate acting as a devil's advocate but racism existed before capitalism. Capitalism did not invent racism but supported several racist ideas to achieve its aims.

It has been argued that capitalism and opposition to income redistribution could be driven by racism and Intolerance.

comrade stalin guevara

2nd August 2008, 02:32

I know,
i like to blame everything on them
your point is more the true staement

Bud Struggle

2nd August 2008, 13:59

I know,
i like to blame everything on them
your point is more the true staement

Capitalism is ANTI-racism. A factory manager in Capitalism would want to hire the BEST workers he could for the money he's paying, regardless of his color, or religion or nationality. If the factory owner doesn't hire the Black man if is he is the best person for the job, he is going againt the thing that makes him profitable.

It would be a bad capitalist decision and if he made decisions like that long enough he would lose his competitive edge and go bankrupt.

danyboy27

2nd August 2008, 15:55

Capitalism is ANTI-racism. A factory manager in Capitalism would want to hire the BEST workers he could for the money he's paying, regardless of his color, or religion or nationality. If the factory owner doesn't hire the Black man if is he is the best person for the job, he is going againt the thing that makes him profitable.

It would be a bad capitalist decision and if he made decisions like that long enough he would lose his competitive edge and go bankrupt.

well, unfortunatly not everyone is pragmatic like you i guess.

where i work, the boss is a tunisian, and he hiring tunisian over and over guy with no competence. to me, this is a racist policy at some extent. Yet he still manage to make enormous profits.

if capitalism create something, that not racism itself, but the liberty of being racist and in power.

Still, i doubt a communism regime can destroy racism has we know it, at best it can decrease it or hide it. i know you guy hate me when i point exemple like china and the USSR, but so far those socialist/communist contries always had a racist issues, in china it was the Hans, in russia it was the mongols/kazack.
and look at yougoslavia, how this ended in a bloody genocide.

communist and capitalism are not magic formula against racism, racism happen, all we can do is discourage anti-racial practices, no matter what ideology we are.

Bud Struggle

2nd August 2008, 16:10

well, unfortunatly not everyone is pragmatic like you i guess.

where i work, the boss is a tunisian, and he hiring tunisian over and over guy with no competence. to me, this is a racist policy at some extent. Yet he still manage to make enormous profits. Of course any individual can do a particular racist thing, but in general there is no incentive for a Capitalist to be racist--in fact the incentive goes in the other direction.

if capitalism create something, that not racism itself, but the liberty of being racist and in power. That's why there are laws in the state to even the playingfield--the laws and the practice are far from perfect, but at least they try.

Still, i doubt a communism regime can destroy racism has we know it, at best it can decrease it or hide it. i know you guy hate me when i point exemple like china and the USSR, but so far those socialist/communist contries always had a racist issues, in china it was the Hans, in russia it was the mongols/kazack.
and look at yougoslavia, how this ended in a bloody genocide. Racism is an irrational dislike of certain people because of some genetic pigmentation in their skin. It's as rational as hating someone for having blond hair or blue eyes. Yet people do it.

communist and capitalism are not magic formula against racism, racism happen, all we can do is discourage anti-racial practices, no matter what ideology we are.

Well said. :thumbup:

disobey

2nd August 2008, 18:00

Capitalism on its own as an ideology cares not about race; therefore it will not make racism more or less prevalent. It only cares about profit and expansion, and when products are to be sold, it cares not to whom. Infact, free market capitalism is probably the most "colourblind" ideology perhaps. The irony is that globalisation exploits everyone equally.

It is however the nature of capitalists, that is, the capitalist class or ruling class, to use racism as leverage in various forms of social control. As we're all aware its use is paramount in decapitating trade union movements -- divide and conquer, if you will. Insomuch it is my opinion that capitalism will never solve the race issue as there will always be bad, greedy, power hungry people running the show.

Racism cannot be solved by the state alone either; to do so would be to impose a moral order on a people when infact change must come from within. Of course a true dictatorship of the proleteriat would probably be able to combat the problem, but I could be wrong.

Either way unfortunately I think racism will always be with us regardless - looking at human behaviour it always seems as it is often used as a "fall back" defensive position when no other alternatives are left; and that is the worrying thing.

Bud Struggle

2nd August 2008, 18:28

Either way unfortunately I think racism will always be with us regardless - looking at human behaviour it always seems as it is often used as a "fall back" defensive position when no other alternatives are left; and that is the worrying thing.

Racism is a failure of EDUCATION, not of Economics. And to a good extent--I think it's that failure is being over come. The world still is pretty racist, to be sure. But no where near as much as it was 50 years ago. there's still places like Stormfront that spew out their hatred, but in the real world those kinds of people and websites are margenalized in a way they might not have been not too long ago.

I live in the America South, and I have never heard the N-word mentioned, I haven't ever seen over racism, I have no doubt there is subtle things going on, but little , by little there's een improvement.

Will racism all go away someday? I doubt it, but the more it's confined and marginalized the more the people that really get hurt by racism will not be the Blacks--but the racists themselves.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

3rd August 2008, 04:20

Holden Caulfield

31st August 2008, 12:22

Racism is a failure of EDUCATION, not of Economics

the Klu Klax Klan was founded by rich white landowners as win over the poor white labourers to their 'camp' as they feared that the poor workers, white and black, united would rebel against them

the rich white land owners used their influence to spread rascism and therefore divide the working classes, they then payed the whites slightly more than the blacks, making them feel like they themselves were not being opressed,

and from then on the balcks could be blamed for things and could be treated in appaling ways as they did not have the strength (that would come with unity with white workers) to push for changes, at that time

Bud Struggle

31st August 2008, 13:58

the Klu Klax Klan was founded by rich white landowners as win over the poor white labourers to their 'camp' as they feared that the poor workers, white and black, united would rebel against them

the rich white land owners used their influence to spread rascism and therefore divide the working classes, they then payed the whites slightly more than the blacks, making them feel like they themselves were not being opressed,

and from then on the balcks could be blamed for things and could be treated in appaling ways as they did not have the strength (that would come with unity with white workers) to push for changes, at that time

All well and good, but the bottom line is that slavery as a Capitalist system was a failure. What you are talking about above isn't Capitalism--it's an excercize in power to advance a scewed system that really didn't work very well. The slavery system in the American South was doomed to failure eventually--the Civil War just ended thing a bit in advance of what the Capitalist system would have done.

Capitalism is just like Communism in regard to race--it really doesn't matter what color a person is. The only thing that matters in Capitalism is Green. Capitalism is constantly in need of new and better markets and poor people either black or white make lousy customers when they have no money.

Slavery and the KKK aftermath were a perversion of the Capitalist system.

Frost

31st August 2008, 17:40

Racism is a failure of EDUCATION, not of Economics.

I don't think there's some manual on how not to be racist. Racism doesn't come from lack of education, racism is a reactionary emotional outlook.

The term racism is a little vague, however, and comes in varying degrees. Is the Black/White/Hispanic nationalist a racist for their beliefs? Many would think so. But does that mean that they feel other races are inferior? Not necessarily. I don't think their beliefs are founded on a lack of education, but more on the notion that they want to stick to their own kind for cultural/ancestral reasons.

Racists tend to feel threatened and/or alienated (which may or may not be true in instances). Some racism may be from a lack of education, but racism exists outside of the realm of education. It's not a mathematical formula or some trivia knowledge you can find the answer to.

Bud Struggle

31st August 2008, 19:56

I don't think there's some manual on how not to be racist. Racism doesn't come from lack of education, racism is a reactionary emotional outlook.

The term racism is a little vague, however, and comes in varying degrees. Is the Black/White/Hispanic nationalist a racist for their beliefs? Many would think so. But does that mean that they feel other races are inferior? Not necessarily. I don't think their beliefs are founded on a lack of education, but more on the notion that they want to stick to their own kind for cultural/ancestral reasons.

Racists tend to feel threatened and/or alienated (which may or may not be true in instances). Some racism may be from a lack of education, but racism exists outside of the realm of education. It's not a mathematical formula or some trivia knowledge you can find the answer to.

Good answer. But racism is an "idea." A particularly pernicious and evil idea--but just and idea that someone had and it caught on. Racism is an interesting idea, though--that because of a nondescript gene in the human body that causes some skin to become lighter or darker many people believe that one set or people (the darker) is vastly inferior to the other to the point of thought of as animals (slaves.)

I don't think that that idea is inate in anyone--an idea like that has to be taught. Certainly 2 year olds of all color and races play together without seeing any differences. The difference has to be "explained" to children--and the explaination has to be inforced. That's why I consider it a matter of "education."

The matter of "blood" and ancestry is a bogus one. You can take a kid of German birth and adopt her in to a French family and never tell her--and she'll grow up to be perfectly French. One of the matters like America so much is that (imperfectly, of course,) it diminishes the origin of people and forces everyone to accept others on who they are as people, not whom they are born from. I know all the America sucks stuff--but all in all there is an effort at least.

RGacky3

31st August 2008, 20:11

Racism nowerdays is more of a class thing, a lot of it comes from labor competition, a lot of working class people, from any race, sometimes get racist attitudes because they see other races from other communities competing for jobs.

A lot of times I think racism is a matter of despiration. That being Said Capitalism has a lot to do with that. That being said, cultural communities (not races [for example Latin-American communities can include white, black, mestizo, meoletto, whatever]) being together, i.e. People tend to like to be around people that are culturally similar, thats not really Capitalisms fault, but that does'nt equate to racism.

Also this all depends on how you define racism.

Frost

31st August 2008, 21:45

I don't think that that idea is inate in anyone--an idea like that has to be taught. Certainly 2 year olds of all color and races play together without seeing any differences. The difference has to be "explained" to children--and the explaination has to be inforced. That's why I consider it a matter of "education."

I understand your point. Of course children of different races can play together without seeing any differences. My best friend during my childhood was of a different race and I never thought anything of it. But to play the devil's advocate, there is science that would point to the contrary.

I can't post links yet, but Arizona State University did a study in 2005 which suggests that prejudice is "hard-wired" into the brain.

The matter of "blood" and ancestry is a bogus one. You can take a kid of German birth and adopt her in to a French family and never tell her--and she'll grow up to be perfectly French.

Your point is perfectly correct and I don't think a nationalist would argue that. But this is an ethnic issue, not a racial one. Of course the girl would be totally French culturally, but she still is ethnically German. I don't see the matter of blood as "bogus", it's just a value that nationalists have.

jasmine

31st August 2008, 22:00

Tomk - a question for you. Why are African Americans so statistically over-represented on death row in America?

Edited for clarity and spelling.

Bud Struggle

1st September 2008, 01:06

Tomk - a question for you. Why are African Americans so statistically over-represented on death row in America?

Edited for clarity and spelling.

Interesting question. It's a matter of culture. African-Americans are over represented on death row--but Caribbean-American (Blacks) are over represented as small business owners. Both Barak Obama and Colin Powell come from non African American households.

And I'll be the first to say it's not all American Black's fault--but the culture of defeat, of drugs (a MAJOR) problem in black communities,) of sexist music that diminshes the Black woman, of single family households, really has had it's impact on the Black community overall.

Racism is a lot less pronounced among the white community as it is perceived among the Black community. I've been in business over 20 years-- and I've never heard a negative comment about Blacks from whites in a business setting. I've heard lots of comments about whites from Blacks.

Major universities are rethinking affirmitive action programs because so many Caribbean blacks are getting in to the exclusion of African Americans. Major job opportunities in American companies are going to Caribbean Blacks over African Americans.

American Blacks need to get their acts together.

Killfacer

1st September 2008, 03:03

slavery didnt really "fail", obviously it was disgusting but it helped to prop up some huge economies of the time. Yeah it died out, but so did hunter gathering and you would not say that failed.

Jazzratt

1st September 2008, 14:51

Now, for the sake of argument, I'm gonna through out this hypothetical:

Let's say a black man reaches the pinnacle of the power structure. And not just any power structure, let's say he become the most powerful man in the world. Bar none.

Wouldn't that negate the whole notion that the current power structure, as a whole, denies black men opportunity simply for being black?

If blacks are still incarcerated more than whites? Still paid less than whites? Still living in shittier areas than whites? When blacks are still turned down for jobs in favour of whites? If blacks suffer all sorts of maltreatment at the hands of the pigs? Of course it fucking well doesn't, it just shows that even with the odds stacked against them one person has made a lot in the casino of capitalism.

Bud Struggle

1st September 2008, 17:35

If blacks are still incarcerated more than whites? Do they commit more crimes than whites?
Still paid less than whites? For the same jobs--or on the whole is their job skill levels that are less than whites?
Still living in shittier areas than whites? It's against the law to deny housing because of race--at least in America.
When blacks are still turned down for jobs in favour of whites? Again--against the law.
If blacks suffer all sorts of maltreatment at the hands of the pigs? Blacks commit 85% of their crimes against other Blacks--who suffers there?
Of course it fucking well doesn't, it just shows that even with the odds stacked against them one person has made a lot in the casino of capitalism. Like it or not, Blacks have to buy into the Capitalist system in order to profit from it.

Jazzratt

1st September 2008, 19:17

Do they commit more crimes than whites?

Not so much more that they make up as much as 80% of the imprisoned population, no.

For the same jobs--or on the whole is their job skill levels that are less than whites?

For the same job. Much like women.

It's against the law to deny housing because of race--at least in America.

How do they enforce this law? Sounds like a joke.

Again--against the law.

When was someone last convicted for this?

Blacks commit 85% of their crimes against other Blacks--who suffers there?

Black people, but then who's fault is it that they can't get jobs and live in areas primarily populated by other black people?

Like it or not, Blacks have to buy into the Capitalist system in order to profit from it.

Yes. And they have to work much harder to do so.

Frost

1st September 2008, 19:18

If blacks are still incarcerated more than whites?

Why is that?

Still paid less than whites?

Same question as TomK

Still living in shittier areas than whites?

That statement is a sweeping generalization. Plenty of Whites live in poverty as well. There are also many Blacks that are richer than most Whites.

When blacks are still turned down for jobs in favour of whites?

Where is the proof of that? Wasn't there a little thing called Affirmative Action to turn down Whites in favour of Blacks to even the playing field?

If blacks suffer all sorts of maltreatment at the hands of the pigs?

What sorts of maltreatments? What proof is there that Blacks receive worse treatment than Whites or Asians by the police?

jasmine

1st September 2008, 20:37

It's a matter of culture. African-Americans are over represented on death row--but Caribbean-American (Blacks) are over represented as small business owners.

It's a matter of culture that African-Americans are over represented on death row? What is this culture that leads to so many African Americans being executed?

Both Barak Obama and Colin Powell come from non African American households.

Interesting observation TomK - I look forward to teasing the implications out of you.

Bud Struggle

1st September 2008, 20:43

It's a matter of culture that African-Americans are over represented on death row? What is this culture that leads to so many African Americans being executed?

What culture makes so many so many Caribbean-Americans to become business owners and graduates from Ivy League schools?

I dare say that some Black culture is based on Socialism and some Black culture is based on Capitalism. Guess which is which. :)

jasmine

1st September 2008, 21:08

What culture makes so many so many Caribbean-Americans to become business owners and graduates from Ivy League schools?

You tell me TomK. And at the same time tell me why so many African-Americans are on death row.

Bud Struggle

1st September 2008, 21:32

You tell me TomK. And at the same time tell me why so many African-Americans are on death row.

They commit crimes OVERWELMINGLY against other African-Americans. As a well off white American, Black crime doesn't bother me in the least. Really. They ain't coming to my house. Blacks kill other Blacks. Black music is about degrading the Black woman. Black drug use dosn't affect me.

I had an attractive black woman that worked for me in NYC that i couldn't walk down the street with--too many comments of "you fuckin' the honkey" from the "brothas". Do you think the Black kids take any IB or honors programs in the Public Schools in the Black parts of town? They have to BUS IN white doctor's kids to fill the slots.

Ever listen to Hip Hop music? Every woman is a "ho". Every chance at making money is a "deal". Blacks need to get their act together. It's not my job to do so for them, is it?

jasmine

1st September 2008, 21:44

Of course it's easty to blame it on "the man." But here's an interesting article about Black immigrants from the Caribbean succeeding nicely while their native Blacks counterparts don't.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18390590/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18390590/)

I know personally--I own a good number of strip malls and I rent space to a lot of Blacks from the Islands or from Africa--I have almost no renters that are African American.

Is it a race issue or an American issue?

They commit crimes OVERWELMINGLY against other African-Americans. As a well off white American, Black crime doesn't bother me in the least. Really. They ain't coming to my house. Blacks kill other Blacks. Black music is about degrading the Black woman. Black drug use dosn't affect me.

I had an attractive black woman that worked for me in NYC that i couldn't walk down the street with--too many comments of "you fuckin' the honkey" from the "brothas". Do you think the Black kids take any IB or honors programs in the Public Schools in the Black parts of town? They have to BUS IN white doctor's kids to fill the slots.

Ever listen to Hip Hop music? Every woman is a "ho". Every chance at making money is a "deal". Blacks need to get their act together. It's not my job to do so for them, is it?

Tomk, I have to say, you are a scummy racist, and I hope I have to have nothing more to do with you.

Pirate turtle the 11th

1st September 2008, 21:56

Ever listen to Hip Hop music? Every woman is a "ho".

Yes and thats aload of crap. Listen to some decent hiphop not "im so hard i have big willy and gun" shit. (Also we have a revleft comi rap album in the works hopefuly).

Bud Struggle

1st September 2008, 21:59

Tomk, I have to say, you are a scummy racist, and I hope I have to have nothing more to do with you.

I'm not feeling the love. ;);)

Anyway, not to make excuses--Blacks have to make their own way in the world. I'm jst telling you what I see. I see some Blacks doing just fine--really well. I see others caught in their own desparation. Me and other people GIVING them something is worthless. They have to make it on their own.

Forgive my criticism--I really don't care what any race or religion does to be successful. I don't care why there are so many Blacks in prison. Each made an individual decision to commit a crime--and FWIW--they did, most often against other Blacks--want to let them out--FINE--let them commit all the crimes they want. My community is gated, they won't bother me.

If Blacks want opportunities--there's PLENTY. Just get an education (the same one's my kids are getting in Public Schools) and get ahead. And there's plenty of Affermitive Action programs, too.

My wife was a HR VP with a MAJOR American fortune 50 company and she SEARCHED THE COUNTRY for qualified Blacks to fill management slots. Companies fought over Black applicants.

But the "butt"--has to be gotten off of.

I'm not a racist. I just don't care. :)

Bud Struggle

1st September 2008, 22:03

Yes and thats aload of crap. Listen to some decent hiphop not "im so hard i have big willy and gun" shit. (Also we have a revleft comi rap album in the works hopefuly).

Interesting. My workers have voted to ban hip hop in the factory because of it's sexist content. The women hate it. Admittedly, I don't listen to it--but it's not allowed per company vote--so that's saying something.

jasmine

1st September 2008, 22:09

I'm not feeling the love.

There is none. You are scum. Just go and take all your pathetic excuses with you. Most of this is lies. You have no company. It's all bullshit.

Bud Struggle

1st September 2008, 22:24

There is none. You are scum. Just go and take all your pathetic excuses with you.

But, no argument? Just your feeling? Well fine. I'm supporting one Black man for President of the United States--lots other's I wouldn't give the time of day to. Some other's I'm giving one of my businesses to.

Jasmine, it's not that race that matters--it's the individual. We have to stop with the religions and the etnicities and the races--we are all just people. Some lookiong a bit different, some talking a bit different, some believing a bit different.

Who the hell cares?

Blacks are in prison more than whites for one reason--they identify themselves as BLACKS not as people. Blacks can't succeed (unless you are from the Carribean, of course!) becauss they identify themselves as Blacks. All this ethnic stuff is fine at Christmas dinner when Aunt Sally bring over some "authentic" ethnic dish that eveyone admires but doesn't eat--but it's not the way to live in the real world.

Blacks have to stop being Black as whites have stopped (with the exception of the Stormfrom crowd) have identified being white.

Get over ther Black thing.

Pirate turtle the 11th

1st September 2008, 22:42

Interesting. My workers have voted to ban hip hop in the factory because of it's sexist content. The women hate it. Admittedly, I don't listen to it--but it's not allowed per company vote--so that's saying something.

I understand that (hell i would hate to have "yo yo *****es suck my nob yo" at school or down at the trains). Problem is that hiphop is still a genre its just being stereotyped by reactionaries pricks.

To be honest the main non twatish hiphop iv come across seems to be communist but there are some good bands out there.

(These are ones fellow anarchist wake up tried to convince people to listen to)

The Pharcyde
Pharaoh Monch
A Tribe Called Quest
Common
J Dilla
vandalyzm
Gas Lamp Killer
(The coup) <- i added this one

Bud Struggle

1st September 2008, 23:17

I understand that (hell i would hate to have "yo yo *****es suck my nob yo" at school or down at the trains). Problem is that hiphop is still a genre its just being stereotyped by reactionaries pricks.

To be honest the main non twatish hiphop iv come across seems to be communist but there are some good bands out there.

(These are ones fellow anarchist wake up tried to convince people to listen to)

The Pharcyde
Pharaoh Monch
A Tribe Called Quest
Common
J Dilla
vandalyzm
Gas Lamp Killer
(The coup) <- i added this one

I understand. But there are women out there that just won't take a chance of listening to a second of that--and I agree. I have mothers with their daughters working in (my) their plant--and they voted--IT ALL GOES!

Pirate turtle the 11th

1st September 2008, 23:22

I understand. But there are women out there that just won't take a chance of listening to a second of that--and I agree. I have mothers with their daughters working (my) their plant--and they voted--IT ALL GOES!

Fair enough. If i was i was there i wouldnt want to risk having any of that shit there out of the fear it might create a attitude towards women that reflects "smack that"

Bud Struggle

2nd September 2008, 00:19

Fair enough. If i was i was there i wouldnt want to risk having any of that shit there out of the fear it might create a attitude towards women that reflects "smack that"

Hey Joe, could give me a link to something worth listening to. (All keeping in mind I'm a late 40's something White guy raised on the Beatles and the Rolling Stones.)

I have no problem introducing stuff--but half way through there can't be some guy doing some babe up the you-know-where. Politics I don't mind--but no f-words. Lots of Spanish ladies that like it the way they like it.

Thanks.

More Fire for the People

2nd September 2008, 01:37

Joe you're a dick and a mook. You obviously know nothing about rap.

Killfacer

2nd September 2008, 03:53

Of course if you wanted to know about rap, you should have asked me as i am a rapper.

Non sexist rap? How about "move *****"; some non sexist lyrics like "move *****, get out the way, get out the way ***** get out the way".

Seriously though, if you want non sexist yet good rap; De La Soul are your band. Saw them live recently (felt like a twat because the whole audience was white), they were good. Inoffensive and non sexist yet still proper rap. As for a tribe called quest, i like them, but they are not proper rap.

Plagueround

2nd September 2008, 06:05

Blacks have to stop being Black as whites have stopped (with the exception of the Stormfrom crowd) have identified being white.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There is still a huge undercurrent of racism in this country, it just gets dressed up as some other "more acceptable" social problem. Come hang out where I live for a while and tell me people don't identify as white; They practically create factions on Cinco De Mayo between hispanic and white, and the black people here get glares and grief all day long. My neighbor, a Rwandan immigrant, has traveled all over the world, and he tells me not many other developed countries treat other ethnic groups the way we do. It's not simply as black and white (no pun intended) as Blacks refusing to adapt or hanging on to their "black" identity.

Hey Joe, could give me a link to something worth listening to. (All keeping in mind I'm a late 40's something White guy raised on the Beatles and the Rolling Stones.)

I have no problem introducing stuff--but half way through there can't be some guy doing some babe up the you-know-where. Politics I don't mind--but no f-words. Lots of Spanish ladies that like it the way they like it.

Thanks.

The Beatles and the Stones are all about doing some babe up the you know where. They're just a bit more subtle about it than today's music. ;)

Decolonize The Left

2nd September 2008, 07:36

But, no argument? Just your feeling? Well fine. I'm supporting one Black man for President of the United States--lots other's I wouldn't give the time of day to. Some other's I'm giving one of my businesses to.

Jasmine, it's not that race that matters--it's the individual. We have to stop with the religions and the etnicities and the races--we are all just people. Some lookiong a bit different, some talking a bit different, some believing a bit different.

Who the hell cares?

Blacks are in prison more than whites for one reason--they identify themselves as BLACKS not as people. Blacks can't succeed (unless you are from the Carribean, of course!) becauss they identify themselves as Blacks. All this ethnic stuff is fine at Christmas dinner when Aunt Sally bring over some "authentic" ethnic dish that eveyone admires but doesn't eat--but it's not the way to live in the real world.

Blacks have to stop being Black as whites have stopped (with the exception of the Stormfrom crowd) have identified being white.

Get over ther Black thing.

Tom, while you may mean well, you contradict yourself and have issues to be addressed.

You say that you are voting for a black man for president, while others are not. But then you say that race ought not to matter. You can see how, in this case, you are saying that your previous statement ought not to matter.

Furthermore, as a white male it is very easy for you (or me) to say that race ought not to be important. I agree with you that we ought to treat others as people - their actions indicative of themselves. Race, gender, sexual preference, ought not to be important in the regards to politics.

Unfortunately, this is not the case. White heterosexual males have consistently, throughout history, occupied a position of superiority and used that position to oppress other genders, races, and sexual orientations. We occupy an inherited position of privilege, whereby we can declare that these issues ought not to matter.

But to a woman they do matter. And to a non-white person they do matter. And to a GLBT person they do matter. Why? Because they are oppressed daily due to their non-white/straight/male heritage.

It is easy for a white man to say that blacks ought not to identify as black. But to a black person this is insulting. Black people aren't in prison because they identify as black, they are in prison because white people are racist and put them in prison. Racism is not separate from the individual - individuals are racist. Whites have stopped 'identifying as whites' because being white is the norm.

- August

Kwisatz Haderach

2nd September 2008, 09:56

What culture makes so many so many Caribbean-Americans to become business owners and graduates from Ivy League schools?
The fact that if they hadn't been admitted by Ivy League schools, they would not have been able to immigrate to the US and therefore they would not have been Caribbean-Americans.

When immigrants succeed more often than natives, this happens for the simple reason that only successful people are allowed to immigrate.

Bud Struggle

2nd September 2008, 11:36

Tom, while you may mean well, you contradict yourself and have issues to be addressed.

You say that you are voting for a black man for president, while others are not. But then you say that race ought not to matter. You can see how, in this case, you are saying that your previous statement ought not to matter. Yea, noticed the contradiction myself when I was writing it, but how can you talk about "race" and not mention race?

Furthermore, as a white male it is very easy for you (or me) to say that race ought not to be important. I agree with you that we ought to treat others as people - their actions indicative of themselves. Race, gender, sexual preference, ought not to be important in the regards to politics.

Unfortunately, this is not the case. White heterosexual males have consistently, throughout history, occupied a position of superiority and used that position to oppress other genders, races, and sexual orientations. We occupy an inherited position of privilege, whereby we can declare that these issues ought not to matter.

But to a woman they do matter. And to a non-white person they do matter. And to a GLBT person they do matter. Why? Because they are oppressed daily due to their non-white/straight/male heritage.

It is easy for a white man to say that blacks ought not to identify as black. But to a black person this is insulting. Black people aren't in prison because they identify as black, they are in prison because white people are racist and put them in prison. Racism is not separate from the individual - individuals are racist. Whites have stopped 'identifying as whites' because being white is the norm.

- August I understand what you are saying here--but if I may place myself in the role of speaking for "the man" for a second because I am to am extent such a creature, and so are most of my friends--we really don't care who's Black when we hire. Really. As a matter of fact we LIKE to hire Blacks because nobody wants to look like some sort of bigot. We are more than happy to see a black guy succeed. I mean we don't go much out of our way, to make life easier for Blacks, but we certainly wouldn't go in the opposite direction. We know a few Black business owners and some are friends and the Black thing just isn't an issue. It's no different than being Spanish American or anything else.
Almost no whites. Of course, I have only one perspective--that of a White guy.

As far as crime goes--I volunteer teach business at the local state prison (Catholic prison outreach!) and I see criminals by the hundreds. Lots of blacks, mostly all in there for one reason--drugs of drug related crimes. And almost all of the crime that's committed is some sort of Black on Black crime. Some carjacking and posession, but if it's violent--it's against another Black. It's endemic in the community. And as much as everyone hates the police, all they do is keep try to make the streets a bit safer for some of the residents. Maybe they are more brutal than they have to be--but it's nasty in some of those areas.

On the other hand--I see a REAL problem in the Black community with education--there is no emphasis on anything academic for the most part. I specificly don't send my kids to a private school--just so they can see what the world they live in is actually like. But also the schools are really good. My kids are in International Baccalaureate programs in 50/50 Black schools and the IB programs are almost all white and all pretty darn rich. (Suprising number of kids from of all places--Communist China!) The Blacks are in the rest of the school--I KNOW everyone is accepted into the IB program who wants to go, but there seems to be no interest from the Black kids--actually from what my daughter say about the one ow two Black friends that are in the program is that they are under pressure from other Blacks to drop out of the program.

Personally, I think the resources are there for Blacks to do whatever they want in America--I see the next step is up to them.

Bud Struggle

2nd September 2008, 11:45

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There is still a huge undercurrent of racism in this country, it just gets dressed up as some other "more acceptable" social problem. Come hang out where I live for a while and tell me people don't identify as white; They practically create factions on Cinco De Mayo between hispanic and white, and the black people here get glares and grief all day long. My neighbor, a Rwandan immigrant, has traveled all over the world, and he tells me not many other developed countries treat other ethnic groups the way we do. It's not simply as black and white (no pun intended) as Blacks refusing to adapt or hanging on to their "black" identity. Well you may have a point--I am in Florida and EVERYONE here doesn't come from here, so I think there is more of an opportunity for people to be more open about other immigrants to the state. Maybe in other parts of the country ideas and attitudes are more entrenched. That's am important factor that has to be considered.

The Beatles and the Stones are all about doing some babe up the you know where. They're just a bit more subtle about it than today's music. ;) That may well be but you wouldn't want to be sitting in my office if the F word is ever played over the music system. I get 50 insulted women yelling at me in Spanish at the top of their lungs--nothing I ever want to do again. :rolleyes:

Bud Struggle

2nd September 2008, 11:53

The fact that if they hadn't been admitted by Ivy League schools, they would not have been able to immigrate to the US and therefore they would not have been Caribbean-Americans.

When immigrants succeed more often than natives, this happens for the simple reason that only successful people are allowed to immigrate.

Here's an interesting articl on that subject:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18390590/

A study released this year put numbers on the trend. Among students at 28 top U.S. universities, the representation of black students of first- and second-generation immigrant origin (27 percent) was about twice their representation in the national population of blacks their age (13 percent). Within the Ivy League, immigrant-origin students made up 41 percent of black freshmen....

The issue of native vs. immigrant black Americans took hold at Harvard in 2004, when professors Henry Louis Gates and Lani Guinier pointed out at a black alumni reunion that a majority of attendees were of African or Caribbean origin. Gates and Guinier cited demographic information in the "Black Guide to Life at Harvard," a survey of 70 percent of black undergraduates published by the BSA.

Pirate turtle the 11th

2nd September 2008, 11:56

Well you may have a point--I am in Florida and EVERYONE here doesn't come from here, so I think there is more of an opportunity for people to be more open about other immigrants to the state. Maybe in other parts of the country ideas and attitudes are more entrenched. That's am important factor that has to be considered.

Theres quite abit of racism in england. When my brother was old enough to be carried around the streets (as opposed to in a baby carrier) (by brother is half black) and people just treat you diffrently (less polite etc). And that made me relise that racism is still around.

Bud Struggle

2nd September 2008, 21:27

Theres quite abit of racism in england. When my brother was old enough to be carried around the streets (as opposed to in a baby carrier) (by brother is half black) and people just treat you diffrently (less polite etc). And that made me relise that racism is still around.

I don't disaree. It exists. But I don't think it's as institutionalized as some people think. About a year or so ago one of my vendors truck drivers while making a delivery to me approached one of my warehousemen and complained about the "n-word" situation on a couple of deliveries. My guy said nothing--idiots talk. But on the third delivery the driver said something about a KKK meeting and asked my warehouseman to attend. The warehouseman reported it to me, I called the owner of my vending company and the driver was fired within 20 mins.

NOBODY wants that kind of stuff happening. If anyone thinks that having your truck driver recruiting for the KKK is good for business--they are crazy. As far as the businesses I own or associated with--or my friends businesses, for that matter--the sooner the race issue goes away the better. People are people--they are paid on their performance not their skin color.

Pirate turtle the 11th

2nd September 2008, 21:32

I don't disaree. It exists. But I don't think it's as institutionalized as some people think. About a year or so ago one of my vendors truck drivers while making a delivery to me approached one of my warehousemen and complained about the "n-word" situation on a couple of deliveries. My guy said nothing--idiots talk. But on the third delivery the driver said something about a KKK meeting and asked my warehouseman to attend. The warehouseman reported it to me, I called the owner of my vending company and the driver was fired within 20 mins.

NOBODY wants that kind of stuff happening. If anyone thinks that having your truck driver recruiting for the KKK is good for business--they are crazy. As far as the businesses I own or associated with--or my friends businesses, for that matter--the sooner the race issue goes away the better. People are people--they are paid on their performance not their skin color.

Yeah the KKK are tossers the chief racist here goes to meetings with them leader of the British nazi pricks (BNP) who is "not racist" and you can find out at there meetings, unless your black then they turn you away at the door.

jasmine

2nd September 2008, 21:42

I don't disaree. It exists. But I don't think it's as institutionalized as some people think. About a year or so ago one of my vendors truck drivers while making a delivery to me approached one of my warehousemen and complained about the "n-word" situation on a couple of deliveries. My guy said nothing--idiots talk. But on the third delivery the driver said something about a KKK meeting and asked my warehouseman to attend. The warehouseman reported it to me, I called the owner of my vending company and the driver was fired within 20 mins.

I must say Tom, and I'm sure I'm not the first to have wondered about this, if you are such a busy capitalist, with your factory and all the franchises and your family and so on, just how do you find the time to post here with such frequency?

Particularly during the day.

And really, why would you bother?

Anyway, I apologise if this is off topic, as it is, but you know, curiosity killed the cat and all that. I do seem to have nine lives though.

Bud Struggle

2nd September 2008, 21:53

I must say Tom, and I'm sure I'm not the first to have wondered about this, if you are such a busy capitalist, with your factory and all the franchises and your family and so on, just how do you find the time to post here with such frequency?

Particularly during the day.

And really, why would you bother?

Anyway, I apologise if this is off topic, as it is, but you know, curiosity killed the cat and all that. I do seem to have nine lives though.

The answer is: Sorbet!

To clense the palette.

(I've mentioned this before to others) When I'm at my desk (at home usually) between different pieces of business--I take a short break. And look at something on the internet--RevLeft at this time--other places at other times. I like to divest my mind of one set of business thinking, before I begin another. That's why for the most part my posts are rather short.

I'm here right now between a valuation of land slightly off the intersction of two highways in Georgia (maybe too far off the highway for the price.) and a price quote for sheets and towels for a hotel.

And as I also said--I learn a lot here. I'm not who I am for nothing--I grow and learn. :)

Why are you here?

jasmine

3rd September 2008, 16:56

(I've mentioned this before to others) When I'm at my desk (at home usually) between different pieces of business--I take a short break. And look at something on the internet--RevLeft at this time--other places at other times. I like to divest my mind of one set of business thinking, before I begin another. That's why for the most part my posts are rather short.

Kind of hard to believe somehow - you've averaged 10 or 11 posts per day for more than 6 months.

This is the internet so I suppose you can be whoever you want to be.

Killfacer

3rd September 2008, 17:31

im a black jewish nazi called Tfgzarg

Tungsten

3rd September 2008, 18:06

it capitalism isnt the original source of racism, what is?

Oh is that right. I thought the source was an instinctive primate hostility towards "outsiders" and the unfamiliar. Obviously, confontation with people who look different to ourselves can trigger this instinct more readily than those who look similar to us. Like most instincts, it can be "thought around", but many people don't bother - those people become the racists.

No one consciously "started" racism. There was no "plan" to "divide and conquer" anyone.

Pirate turtle the 11th

3rd September 2008, 18:32

im a black jewish nazi called Tfgzarg

Ban.

:laugh:

Dean

3rd September 2008, 18:35

im a ... nazi...

Scumbag!

Killfacer

3rd September 2008, 18:36

damn you mis-quoting me.

jasmine

3rd September 2008, 21:58

im a black jewish nazi called Tfgzarg

Okay, a good point well made, maybe when I said "anyone" I was not quite, exactly, correct.:)

But you do have a lot of leeway to invent on the internet.

Dean

3rd September 2008, 21:59

damn you mis-quoting me.

I didn't misquote you. I was just very selective in my presentation!

jasmine

3rd September 2008, 22:18

They commit crimes OVERWELMINGLY against other African-Americans. As a well off white American, Black crime doesn't bother me in the least. Really. They ain't coming to my house. Blacks kill other Blacks. Black music is about degrading the Black woman. Black drug use dosn't affect me.

I had an attractive black woman that worked for me in NYC that i couldn't walk down the street with--too many comments of "you fuckin' the honkey" from the "brothas". Do you think the Black kids take any IB or honors programs in the Public Schools in the Black parts of town? They have to BUS IN white doctor's kids to fill the slots.

Ever listen to Hip Hop music? Every woman is a "ho". Every chance at making money is a "deal". Blacks need to get their act together. It's not my job to do so for them, is it?

Nevertheless, jokes aside, can someone explain to me just how you get away with this on a web board devoted to marxist/anarchist discussion?

I know this guy is popular but can he just write whatever he wants? Because of his earlier jokes and charm offensive?

This is utter racist shit. Why is it being tolerated?

Bud Struggle

3rd September 2008, 23:15

Nevertheless, jokes aside, can someone explain to me just how you get away with this on a web board devoted to marxist/anarchist discussion?

I know this guy is popular but can he just write whatever he wants? Because of his earlier jokes and charm offensive?

This is utter racist shit. Why is it being tolerated?

Jasmine--you are the racist. :)

EARLIER JOKES AND CHARM--when the hell did my jokes stop being funny? NOW I'M INSULTED! :D

Seriously as far as race goes--I just tell you what I see from my perspective--like it: great, don't like it: great. I'm not doing a PC thing. I'm not doing a "I love Blacks" thing, or a "I hate Blacks" thing.

What are you saying about Black culture and problems in the United States? All you've been harping on is that you don't like me. Fine--got some rebuttal to my points? Got something to say? I have nothing personal against you--so knock off the personal jibes and challenge me on my points.

Can't do that? Got nothing to say 'cept "TomK's no good." You ask me questions but you give no response to me--just "comment" on my responses. Don't you think people see through that kind of phoneyness? (Examples posted by said people above.)

You are your own worst enemy.

Dean

3rd September 2008, 23:52

Seriously as far as race goes--I just tell you what I see from my perspective--like it: great, don't like it: great. I'm not doing a PC thing. I'm not doing a "I love Blacks" thing, or a "I hate Blacks" thing.

TomK, the entire tone and direction of that post was inflammatory and xenophobic. Frankly, I expected better from you Tom, you haven't been so clearly insensitive until now. I know you're coming from a white, privileged standpoint, but when you're talking about race relations you should try to transcend some of the baser prejudices.

Bud Struggle

4th September 2008, 00:24

TomK, the entire tone and direction of that post was inflammatory and xenophobic. Frankly, I expected better from you Tom, you haven't been so clearly insensitive until now. I know you're coming from a white, privileged standpoint, but when you're talking about race relations you should try to transcend some of the baser prejudices.

Sorry Dean, but I don't like getting picked apart by Jasmine or anyone else. If you don't think I'm right about what I say about Blacks or anything else, fine. Critique me.

You and Jasmine want to harp on what a scumbag I am. Do that, too. But to expect me to roll over and play dead is a bit much to ask, isn't it?

And who am I being insensitive to? Who? I tell you what I see--you ask me a straight question I ALWAYS responded with a straight answer. If you don't like the answer, tough. If you have proof I'm wrong--fine. I've been corrected on this Forum before--and I've said as much.

OI isn't the lol Cats forum--were not here to make people feel fluffy and nice. We're here to speak what we see as our version of what is true and explain, often with much difficulty, how what WE see as true could better the world.

Listen, I don't want to make Blacks feel good. I want them to succeed--and maybe you think it's the "man" that keeps them down--but I'm here to tell you, the "man" is more on their side than you think. I just think it's time that everyone stops pretending and face the reality of the situration at hand. Part of the Black's the problem is Society--but part is the problem of the Blacks themselves.

Let me guess the response: "TomK sucks.":)

Jazzratt

4th September 2008, 00:25

This is utter racist shit. Why is it being tolerated?

It isn't. He is a restricted member. Bans come for fascists. Racism is hated, but we don't ban people for racism alone.

Dean

4th September 2008, 01:10

Sorry Dean, but I don't like getting picked apart by Jasmine or anyone else. If you don't think I'm right about what I say about Blacks or anything else, fine. Critique me.
Fine.

They commit crimes OVERWELMINGLY against other African-Americans.
Stating a statistic which exists within confines of the black crime rate is completely irrelevent to the question at hand. But, what does this prove anyways? People tend to commit crime where they live, and in a segregated society (de facto or de jure) this means that crime will be disproportionately against one's own neighbors. I don't see a lot of crime between Indonesians and Americans, for obvious reasons. What does this statistic prove? That blacks aren't "racially loyal"?

As a well off white American, Black crime doesn't bother me in the least. Really. They ain't coming to my house. Blacks kill other Blacks.
Oh? When does it start to bother you? When it starts to affect rich blacks? rich whites? Your neighbor? You? waht does it take to get you to be bothered by murder, TomK?

Black music is about degrading the Black woman. Black drug use dosn't affect me.
Apparently you're not familiar with The Coup, Dead Prez, Screaming Jay, Hendrix?

I had an attractive black woman that worked for me in NYC that i couldn't walk down the street with--too many comments of "you fuckin' the honkey" from the "brothas". Do you think the Black kids take any IB or honors programs in the Public Schools in the Black parts of town? They have to BUS IN white doctor's kids to fill the slots.
And why do you think this is? Capitalists love to talk about the "individual," but when this logic turns to analysis of social issues, it fails horribly. Nobody lives in a vacuum. You should care about black crime for the same reason the disparity between black and white test scores can be seen as primarily cultural - we don't live in a vacuum. When you attempt to isolate people into "individuals" you develop a passive, disinterested approach to social theory. You either concern yourself with the individual as he or she exists in society, which involves not just their actions but also their conditions, or you shouldn't be talking about social problems. Speaking of social conditions without understanding the development of the social dynamics is like talking about the proton without mentioning the atom.

Ever listen to Hip Hop music? Every woman is a "ho". Every chance at making money is a "deal". Blacks need to get their act together. It's not my job to do so for them, is it?
Ever seen a diocese? Every woman is a "nun." Every money-making scheme is "usury." Catholics need to get their act together.

Do you think its worse to have a distinct hierarchal patriarchy which purveys the essential philosophical goods of an entire religion, or to use sexist language?

And who am I being insensitive to? Who? I tell you what I see--you ask me a straight question I ALWAYS responded with a straight answer. If you don't like the answer, tough. If you have proof I'm wrong--fine. I've been corrected on this Forum before--and I've said as much.

OI isn't the lol Cats forum--were not here to make people feel fluffy and nice. We're here to speak what we see as our version of what is true and explain, often with much difficulty, how what WE see as true could better the world.

TomK, the reason I don't want you to talk about sexism in the black community as if it were a "black problem" is the same reason I don't talk about sexism in Islam or Catholicism as if it were some distinct, inaleinable characteristic of the religions. We don't live in a vacuum. Regardless of that point, however, is that sexism exists across gender, class and race. Just like poverty: there are poor whites living in the most marginalized communities in the U.S., with the same rate of social mobility as poor blacks. Sexism is not a racial issue, poverty is not a racial issue, at least not in the sense that being black means you have no chances. It means you are more likely to be in a poor neighborhood because we live in a post-black slavery society which has never had any real social mobility. I'm not talking about the random guy who make millions in stocks - I'm talking about the massive, widespread reappropriation of economic goods that exists in most european nations among the classes. You simply don't have large numbers of people "pulling themselves up" here. You have small numbers of people getting obscenely rich.

Listen, I don't want to make Blacks feel good. I want them to succeed--and maybe you think it's the "man" that keeps them down--but I'm here to tell you, the "man" is more on their side than you think. I just think it's time that everyone stops pretending and face the reality of the situration at hand. Part of the Black's the problem is Society--but part is the problem of the Blacks themselves.
A notorious problem within the ideological supporters of capitalism is their inability to look at any factors which do not create distinct legalistic dynamics. Only under such a mindset can a society, historically split along racial class lines, be "reversely racist" for having a single law meant to even the field.

Bud Struggle

4th September 2008, 01:53

Fine.
Stating a statistic which exists within confines of the black crime rate is completely irrelevent to the question at hand. But, what does this prove anyways? I have no idea what it proves. Jasmine asked me why I thought so many Blacks were in jail. I simply answered. If you don't want an answer--don't ask. Beside, I'm not so stupid to not know when I was being baited--which I was. :)

People tend to commit crime where they live, and in a segregated society (de facto or de jure) this means that crime will be disproportionately against one's own neighbors. I don't see a lot of crime between Indonesians and Americans, for obvious reasons. What does this statistic prove? That blacks aren't "racially loyal"? Jasmine didn't ask me about Indonesians--she asked me why I though so many Blacks were in prison. I TEACH in a prison. I see it. I answered the question honestly about what I saw. You want to add you PC Spin. Than do so. Have you ever been to a prison--have you ever seen the suffering, the broken families, the hatred, the vendettas, the overwelming deaparation that drugs have caused?

Noooooo. You have you pat answers and your "Capitalism" being responsible for every bad thing that ever happened.

]Oh? When does it start to bother you? When it starts to affect rich blacks? rich whites? Your neighbor? You? waht does it take to get you to be bothered by murder, TomK? The sad story is that until the Revolution comes people have to be responsible for their own actions. I don't buy into the blame someone else theory of life. If you want a good life--you have to make it good, if you want a lousy life--you have all the opportunities in the world. Sure, bad things happen to everyone--you want to dwell on the bad and make that the focus of ther life, that's your choice. If other's don't choose that path, you'll just have to forgive them.

Apparently you're not familiar with The Coup, Dead Prez, Screaming Jay, Hendrix? Hendrix, yea. The rest, Nope. I'm a white guy in my forties. I don't listen to that stuff--I had my run ins with rap music in my factory and I caught hell for it. Nothing I want to go through again. I asked for and got some interesting stuff from Comrade Joe--I'll persue that when I have the chance. (Thank's Joe!)

And why do you think this is? Capitalists love to talk about the "individual," but when this logic turns to analysis of social issues, it fails horribly. Nobody lives in a vacuum. You should care about black crime for the same reason the disparity between black and white test scores can be seen as primarily cultural - we don't live in a vacuum. When you attempt to isolate people into "individuals" you develop a passive, disinterested approach to social theory. You either concern yourself with the individual as he or she exists in society, which involves not just their actions but also their conditions, or you shouldn't be talking about social problems. Speaking of social conditions without understanding the development of the social dynamics is like talking about the proton without mentioning the atom.Oh, I understand the dynamics, quite clearly. And for what it's worth the social issues matter only if you bother be concerned by such things. In my personal life I NEVER cared about the place of the white man or being Polish American or being poor or any of that stuff that I was and later became. I wasn't interested in it for me--no reason I should be interested in it for anyone else. I've always here on RevLeft disclaimed the absurd idea of class. I was born in one class and then I "graduated" to another class? Nonesense. WE ARE ALL THE SAME. At least here in America. I was poor, now I'm not so poor, if I loose everything I'll be poor again. Who cares--that's just money. It comes and goes. It doesn't change me. That's all just nonsense.

Ever seen a diocese? Every woman is a "nun." Every money-making scheme is "usury." Catholics need to get their act together. They do. And so do a lot of other people. I have no problem with that.

Do you think its worse to have a distinct hierarchal patriarchy which purveys the essential philosophical goods of an entire religion, or to use sexist language? You see--anyone can do what they want. If people want to Be Catholic, that's their choice and you could criticize them for that, but that's their choice. I have no problem with your criticism, though. Why do you have a problem when you sacred ox is criticized?

TomK
, the reason I don't want you to talk about sexism in the black community as if it were a "black problem" is the same reason I don't talk about sexism in Islam or Catholicism as if it were some distinct, inaleinable characteristic of the religions. We don't live in a vacuum. Dean, all I did was mention MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES in life. That's all. I saw how it affected people and I wasn't very happy with the results. What's wrong with that?

Regardless of that point, however, is that sexism exists across gender, class and race. Just like poverty: there are poor whites living in the most marginalized communities in the U.S., with the same rate of social mobility as poor blacks. Sexism is not a racial issue, I agree, there.

poverty is not a racial issue, at least not in the sense that being black means you have no chances. I agree there, too.

It means you are more likely to be in a poor neighborhood because we live in a post-black slavery society which has never had any real social mobility. I don't buy that. I'm socially mobil and so are almost all of my friends. And trust me--there aren't too many Rocket Scientists in my crowd. Just people that got an idea and worked damned hard.

I'm not talking about the random guy who make millions in stocks - I'm talking about the massive, widespread reappropriation of economic goods that exists in most european nations among the classes. You simply don't have large numbers of people "pulling themselves up" here. You have small numbers of people getting obscenely rich. You should read The Millionaire Next Door there are a LOT more rich people than you could ever imagine. They just don't look it.

A notorious problem within the ideological supporters of capitalism is their inability to look at any factors which do not create distinct legalistic dynamics. Only under such a mindset can a society, historically split along racial class lines, be "reversely racist" for having a single law meant to even the field.

And what's your point--I'm a racist because I don't see things in your ideocincratic social classist structure? I mean you Communists have your 800 guys here--and good for them, and then there's the REAL WORLD, isn't there?

Dean

4th September 2008, 03:21

Jasmine didn't ask me about Indonesians--she asked me why I though so many Blacks were in prison. I TEACH in a prison. I see it. I answered the question honestly about what I saw. You want to add you PC Spin. Than do so. Have you ever been to a prison--have you ever seen the suffering, the broken families, the hatred, the vendettas, the overwelming deaparation that drugs have caused?

Noooooo. You have you pat answers and your "Capitalism" being responsible for every bad thing that ever happened.
I haven't seen that suffering, I have experienced it. I haven't been to a prison, but I have been in a jail.

My problem is that you are implicitly blaming race for the black crime rate, by ignoring all of the social conditions which engender that crime. As for capitalism, I only mentioned it as it relates to your specific mentality - the concept of fairness, responsibility and ultimately alienating values.

The sad story is that until the Revolution comes people have to be responsible for their own actions. I don't buy into the blame someone else theory of life. If you want a good life--you have to make it good, if you want a lousy life--you have all the opportunities in the world. Sure, bad things happen to everyone--you want to dwell on the bad and make that the focus of ther life, that's your choice. If other's don't choose that path, you'll just have to forgive them.
Where am I implying that personal responsiblity isn't important? Disassociating yourself from important social concerns - such as murder, wherever it is committed - is a dangerous mentality. I am not interested primarily in rewards and blame - I am concerned with real results for society.

Hendrix, yea. The rest, Nope. I'm a white guy in my forties. I don't listen to that stuff--I had my run ins with rap music in my factory and I caught hell for it. Nothing I want to go through again. I asked for and got some interesting stuff from Comrade Joe--I'll persue that when I have the chance. (Thank's Joe!)
So why say that "black music is sexist" - a clearly racist statement - when you are not even very familiar with music by black people?

Oh, I understand the dynamics, quite clearly. And for what it's worth the social issues matter only if you bother be concerned by such things. In my personal life I NEVER cared about the place of the white man or being Polish American or being poor or any of that stuff that I was and later became. I wasn't interested in it for me--no reason I should be interested in it for anyone else. I've always here on RevLeft disclaimed the absurd idea of class. I was born in one class and then I "graduated" to another class? Nonesense. WE ARE ALL THE SAME. At least here in America. I was poor, now I'm not so poor, if I loose everything I'll be poor again. Who cares--that's just money. It comes and goes. It doesn't change me. That's all just nonsense.
I can assure you that for those of us who live paycheck - to - paycheck, it is very real. It could mean the difference between health insurance or none, losing or keeping your home, keeping the lights on. It would be wonderful, even in a class society, to do away with these basic concerns, but that cannot happen, and it keeps the class distinctions very real. I can say, for instance, that if I lost my car right now (which could happen if I can't fix some serious electrical problems in it), I would not have any mode of transportation. That is quite real to me, and it really relies specifically on the girth of my bank account.

They do. And so do a lot of other people. I have no problem with that.

You see--anyone can do what they want. If people want to Be Catholic, that's their choice and you could criticize them for that, but that's their choice. I have no problem with your criticism, though. Why do you have a problem when you sacred ox is criticized?
The point is that it is wrong to characterize sexist tendencies as basically racial or religious. I don't fault you for the actions of the catholic church, I don't know you well enough to know if you have any stake in it, but I doubt it. By speaking of the sexism and offensive crap in popularized "hip hop" culture in reference to racial incarceration rates, you are implicitly ascribing cerain traits and actions - drug dealing, sexism, and crime - to a racial distinction.

Dean, all I did was mention MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES in life. That's all. I saw how it affected people and I wasn't very happy with the results. What's wrong with that?

That's fine (I assume you're talking about rap). But it is wrong to say that the problem was "black music" and so I take exception to that.

I don't buy that. I'm socially mobil and so are almost all of my friends. And trust me--there aren't too many Rocket Scientists in my crowd. Just people that got an idea and worked damned hard.

You should read The Millionaire Next Door there are a LOT more rich people than you could ever imagine. They just don't look it.

Tom, you're missing the point competely. Statistically, US citizens are much less likely to change what class they were born into throughout their entires lives when compared to people in places like Europe and China. People could argue that it is due to a stagnating economy, but that is not the point - the point is that your example of a self-made millionaire is not relevent because it doesn't happen as a rule, only as an exception, and then only among those in the know in rich, industrialized nations. In the third world, you almost have to act against the interests of the local population to "get rich," and I would hope you don't advocate that. We're not discussing how any specific individual can raise his own standards; we want to raise up all of society in regards to education, capability, freedom and social responsibility.

And what's your point--I'm a racist because I don't see things in your ideocincratic social classist structure? I mean you Communists have your 800 guys here--and good for them, and then there's the REAL WORLD, isn't there?

I had to read that a couple times before I knew you were saying "idiosyncrasy."

I am talking about your specific, narrow concept of the issues and concerns surrounding black crime. You aren't racist for this reason, but it is typically racist to consider social issues where race is concerned as an issue where "X race" is responsible for this or that. Whether you are communist or capitalist, if you care at all about alleviating problems like the disproportionate imprisonment of black people, your interest should be to uncover the social, political and economic conditions which help engender these problems.

To speak of them as purely issues of individual responbility misses the point totally - for instance, while more whites were arrested for violent crime each year, more blacks were incarcerated for the same. One could say that an ideal situation would be where none such crimes occured, and therefore put all the weight on the criminals. But now you simply have another problem - perhaps greater - how do we get a population of people to stop commiting X crime? By looking at the relevent conditions and statistic modifiers, we can get a rough concept of what else may be wrong. In this case, a slew of cases may be present:
1 We have a racist system
2. Crimes committed by black people are proportionally more likely to be severe and to warrant conviction.
3. The conditions of the system - lawyer fees etc. - favor a rich population, so those who cannot afford good legal counsel are more likely to be convicted.

etc.

From the information we have, the 1st and 3rd options are definitely true to an extent. In your opinion, the first option may be only true historically (a legalistic concept of the justice system). If we are to talk of personal responsibility on the part of black people, then the second option is the only relevent one. But there is no reason why an inquiry into the social activity characterized by crime should be judged so narrowly. It fails to adequately answer the question or to foster a productive sense of the issue.

RGacky3

4th September 2008, 04:44

Being insensitive =/= being racist!!!

Bud Struggle

4th September 2008, 09:14

I haven't seen that suffering, I have experienced it. I haven't been to a prison, but I have been in a jail.

My problem is that you are implicitly blaming race for the black crime rate, by ignoring all of the social conditions which engender that crime. As for capitalism, I only mentioned it as it relates to your specific mentality - the concept of fairness, responsibility and ultimately alienating values.

I'm not blaiming race. I'm blaiming individuals. There very well may be social conditions, but do you really think somehow Capitalists are plotting to keep Black people in the"place"? Do you really think anyone actually cares that much? If certain parts of society have social problems--and Idon't only mean Blacks, it's the responsibility the the members of that sectio of society to change it. To think that change is going to come from the top, from the Prisident or the Congress of the President of corporations is foolish. People have to change themselves individually and thus effect a change in sociey.

Where am I implying that personal responsiblity isn't important? Disassociating yourself from important social concerns - such as murder, wherever it is committed - is a dangerous mentality. I am not interested primarily in rewards and blame - I am concerned with real results for society. Personal responsibility is the ONLY thing that can change society. DON'T rob that store. Don't smoke crack. Stay in school. Don't stral that car. Do show up for work and do a good job. If individual members of society do things like that--society would change a-plenty.

So why say that "black music is sexist" - a clearly racist statement - when you are not even very familiar with music by black people? I explained my situation with it. As I said a number of times I'm open to other suggestions but MY EXPERIENCE with it was somewhat sexist.

I can assure you that for those of us who live paycheck - to - paycheck, it is very real. It could mean the difference between health insurance or none, losing or keeping your home, keeping the lights on. It would be wonderful, even in a class society, to do away with these basic concerns, but that cannot happen, and it keeps the class distinctions very real. I can say, for instance, that if I lost my car right now (which could happen if I can't fix some serious electrical problems in it), I would not have any mode of transportation. That is quite real to me, and it really relies specifically on the girth of my bank account. Hey, we all have problems in life. I don't think my dad ever mademore than 10 grand a year in his life. 1,200 sq ft house that he built himself. I lived all that stuff. He used to drive these old beat up Ramblers--anyway, I'm walking down memory lane. But being poor isn't a crime--the poor in America have enough to east. No one staves--or rather very few do. And there's health insurance, you just have to wait for Medicare.

People just have to take their own responsibility to BETTER THEMSELVES. They have all the free schooling they need. They just have to take advantage of it.

The point is that it is wrong to characterize sexist tendencies as basically racial or religious. I don't fault you for the actions of the catholic church, I don't know you well enough to know if you have any stake in it, but I doubt it. By speaking of the sexism and offensive crap in popularized "hip hop" culture in reference to racial incarceration rates, you are implicitly ascribing cerain traits and actions - drug dealing, sexism, and crime - to a racial distinction. But there IS a racial component to all of that. And you can see it in the prisons. There are more Black me in prison than in college--why is that? Because cops like t put innocent people in jail? (Not to say an innocent person never did time.) Or is there a lot of Black crime out there? Nope--there's a lot of Black crime out there.. Blacks ARE in prison for drug use and drug related crimes--those are just the facts. You want to blame society, fine, but they do commit the crimes.

That's fine (I assume you're talking about rap). But it is wrong to say that the problem was "black music" and so I take exception to that. Again I was talking obout my expiences.

Tom, you're missing the point competely. Statistically, US citizens are much less likely to change what class they were born into throughout their entires lives when compared to people in places like Europe and China. People could argue that it is due to a stagnating economy, but that is not the point - the point is that your example of a self-made millionaire is not relevent because it doesn't happen as a rule, only as an exception, and then only among those in the know in rich, industrialized nations. In the third world, you almost have to act against the interests of the local population to "get rich," and I would hope you don't advocate that. We're not discussing how any specific individual can raise his own standards; we want to raise up all of society in regards to education, capability, freedom and social responsibility. You seem to have no problem with statistics when it comes to this but you you seem to think they are not too important when it comes to Blacks in jail! Anyway--it's NOT society that makes people go up in income--it's the people that do it for themselves. If more people aren't getting rich it's because more people aren't steping up to the plate and working for it. People for the most part are too complacent. There is too little interest in hard work and being a success and too muck in just getting by. And if that's the choice that people make--who am I to question them.

I had to read that a couple times before I knew you were saying "idiosyncrasy." As I said before "short answers" are my stock and trade--I have to race through these long ones.

I am talking about your specific, narrow concept of the issues and concerns surrounding black crime. You aren't racist for this reason, but it is typically racist to consider social issues where race is concerned as an issue where "X race" is responsible for this or that. Whether you are communist or capitalist, if you care at all about alleviating problems like the disproportionate imprisonment of black people, your interest should be to uncover the social, political and economic conditions which help engender these problems. If you don't what my thoughts are specifically on BLACK incarceration--don't ask the question. Ask about poverty or the problems in the lower economic strata of our society. I was answering a specific question, that's how this delightful interchange all came about.

Anway, I know the answer to the problem--it's education not enough people in the lower economic spheres are taking advantage of the generally pretty good educational system that America has to offer.

To speak of them as purely issues of individual responbility misses the point totally - for instance, while more whites were arrested for violent crime each year, more blacks were incarcerated for the same. One could say that an ideal situation would be where none such crimes occured, and therefore put all the weight on the criminals. But now you simply have another problem - perhaps greater - how do we get a population of people to stop commiting X crime? By looking at the relevent conditions and statistic modifiers, we can get a rough concept of what else may be wrong. In this case, a slew of cases may be present:
1 We have a racist system
2. Crimes committed by black people are proportionally more likely to be severe and to warrant conviction.
3. The conditions of the system - lawyer fees etc. - favor a rich population, so those who cannot afford good legal counsel are more likely to be convicted.

etc.

From the information we have, the 1st and 3rd options are definitely true to an extent. In your opinion, the first option may be only true historically (a legalistic concept of the justice system). If we are to talk of personal responsibility on the part of black people, then the second option is the only relevent one. But there is no reason why an inquiry into the social activity characterized by crime should be judged so narrowly. It fails to adequately answer the question or to foster a productive sense of the issue.

Well there is a problem that more Black are incarcerated proportionally--but it's the problem of the CRIME not the proportionality. While of course there are examples of the "wrong guy" of an "innocent bystander" going to jail--the issue is that more of the white people should be incarcerated--not less of the Blacks. The system does favor whites to that extent, but I'm not going to feel sorry for anyone being put in prison for violent crime.

As to your points--

1. I'm not saying that there aren't any racists in society. My point all through this is that there is no systematic government/business plan to in any way keep Black people poor or to in any way foster racism. There will always be individual racists, but they are and should be marginalized.

2. But the point is that they ARE criminals. As I said that if this is the case more whites should be going to jail for violent crimes. Yea, and as I've said before education is the answer. Another equally marginalized group in Society--the Jews--used it to their advantage quite nicely.

3. True, the more money you have the better the lawyer. But the more money you have the better everything is. That's just a fact of life that's not likely to change very soon.

Bud Struggle

4th September 2008, 09:16

Being insensitive =/= being racist!!!

MEEEE!!!!! INSENSITIVE!!!!!

I can't believe such a thing. :ohmy::ohmy::ohmy::lol:

Dean

4th September 2008, 14:31

I'm not blaiming race. I'm blaiming individuals. There very well may be social conditions, but do you really think somehow Capitalists are plotting to keep Black people in the"place"? Do you really think anyone actually cares that much? If certain parts of society have social problems--and Idon't only mean Blacks, it's the responsibility the the members of that sectio of society to change it. To think that change is going to come from the top, from the Prisident or the Congress of the President of corporations is foolish. People have to change themselves individually and thus effect a change in sociey.
Nobody is talking about top-down change. And nobody is saying there is any direct, deliberate policy in place to encourage racism, at least not in this sense. The problem, Tom, is that you can't take criticism of our social order without appreciating some kind of blame - as I have pointed out before, I am interested in racism in the working class, but not in the sense that I want to blame someone or have them take ownership of responsibility. It is only rational to respect these problems with a dynamic interest in their solution.

Personal responsibility is the ONLY thing that can change society. DON'T rob that store. Don't smoke crack. Stay in school. Don't stral that car. Do show up for work and do a good job. If individual members of society do things like that--society would change a-plenty.
...
People just have to take their own responsibility to BETTER THEMSELVES. They have all the free schooling they need. They just have to take advantage of it. Tom, there are no two ways around: the differences in the human experience across different borders (such as geography) are conditional. And if you can recognize this, it is only rational to solve social problems with social solutions. Discouraging the mentalities that drive people to violence is part of this.

TomK, when we spoke of Israel, you decided to forego the moralistic approach and you said (paraphrased) "Israel is here to stay, so the Palestinians have to work with them." You consistently talk about real world solutions when you feel that others are not bringing that dimension into the picture.

I'm asking you to apply that same mentality here. Whether you go Indochina, Russia, Africa, Europe or the Americas, wherever you have similar conditions for the poor working class and indigent peoples you will have crime. You can't just ask people to stop. You need real working solutions, and one of the worst things you can do to a population which is racially targetted (if only considering statistics), grows up with parents in jail, is never given expectations to succeed academically, and is culturally saturated with racist stereotypes and hedonistic messages is to tell them that they need to change.

Not everybody has the same industrious, analytical or manipulative sense of economics you seem to. Like it or not, most people in the world are filled with a range of emotions which are disinterested in, and often directly contradict, the values of the prevailing economic order. You simply cannot use personal responsibility - wherein the concerned parties take on all blame and burden of their problems - as an exclusory benchmark for success.

But there IS a racial component to all of that. And you can see it in the prisons. There are more Black me in prison than in college--why is that? Because cops like t put innocent people in jail? (Not to say an innocent person never did time.) Or is there a lot of Black crime out there? Nope--there's a lot of Black crime out there..

...
You seem to have no problem with statistics when it comes to this but you you seem to think they are not too important when it comes to Blacks in jail!Fine, here is an article which claims that the rise in incarceration rates is due to policies: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-02.htm
This is a direct indictment of policies, rather than individual activity, as responsible for incarceration rates.

http://law.jrank.org/pages/1913/Race-Crime-Conflict-theory.html

For example, a person convicted of possessing five hundred grams of powder cocaine receives the same mandatory minimum prison sentence of five years as someone possessing five grams of crack cocaine. More than 90 percent of persons sentenced in federal courts for crack cocaine violations are African American (Walker et al.). This law, imposed by dominant groups, results in the arrest, conviction, and imprisonments of thousands of African Americans every year, and it is a clear illustration of how the law is used to control and suppress certain races.Here, a policy, deliberately enforced by a dominantly white ruling class on a majority black population, coincides with racial barriers, and is understood through the lens of a Marxist theory.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0008.htm
Arrest and Incarceration rates by race CA specific.
Here we have very clear statistics that show that whites are arrested more regularly, but constitute a smaller portion of the prison population.

http://www.isteve.com/Crime_Imprisonment_Rates_by_Race.htm
Statistics on racial disparity in the justice system and interpretation

The NCIA argued that this high rate of imprisonment of blacks and Hispanics is unfair: "Whites seem to go to jail in smaller numbers than their share of serious crimes would indicate. During the 1990s, whites committed 56 percent of violent crimes and 62 percent of felonies in the United States, according to Justice Department statistics."

Anyway--it's NOT society that makes people go up in income--it's the people that do it for themselves. If more people aren't getting rich it's because more people aren't steping up to the plate and working for it. People for the most part are too complacent. There is too little interest in hard work and being a success and too muck in just getting by. And if that's the choice that people make--who am I to question them. Besides applying my explanation of social conditions as above, there is simply no arguing with the facts here. People don't succeed in capitalism due to some objective virtue - they succeed because they have conditions of personal capability and clear socio-economic opportunities. If people aren't given those options, you can't expect them to succeed - they very rarely will.

As I said before "short answers" are my stock and trade--I have to race through these long ones.Then feel free to respond to small parts at a time. I would much prefer multiple thoughtful responses rather than one long, rushed answer.

Anway, I know the answer to the problem--it's education not enough people in the lower economic spheres are taking advantage of the generally pretty good educational system that America has to offer. We could get into the specifics of school quality in different communities, but that would be a long discussion in itself. Suffice it to say that it is not equal.

Well there is a problem that more Black are incarcerated proportionally--but it's the problem of the CRIME not the proportionality. While of course there are examples of the "wrong guy" of an "innocent bystander" going to jail--the issue is that more of the white people should be incarcerated--not less of the Blacks. The system does favor whites to that extent, but I'm not going to feel sorry for anyone being put in prison for violent crime. You're saying - and I want this to be accurate - that the character of black crime alone amounts to the above statistics (specifically the California example) where the incarceration rate is so disproportionate to the arresting rate? Do you realize the significance of statistics which show such a disparity? I've taken statistics once in high school and twice in college, and I can say that such a proportional disparity is quite powerful.

1. I'm not saying that there aren't any racists in society. My point all through this is that there is no systematic government/business plan to in any way keep Black people poor or to in any way foster racism. There will always be individual racists, but they are and should be marginalized.Firstly I have every reason to think that among all the petty-minded racists and xenophobes in our government, there are a substantial number of people who would like nothing better than to see black people once again under the whip. We have a high number of ex Klu Klux Klan for christssake. But I'm not looking for that, I'm looking for policies and social standards which engender senses of ethnic superiority or otherwise undermine efforts for equality among the races.

2. But the point is that they ARE criminals. As I said that if this is the case more whites should be going to jail for violent crimes. Yea, and as I've said before education is the answer. Another equally marginalized group in Society--the Jews--used it to their advantage quite nicely.As I've said time and time again, this is not about blame. I am interested in the problem as it is fundamentally, which means that we have to analyse why people commit crimes and why they are arrested and convicted for them.

As for the issue of Jewish marginalization - I wouldn't describe a contemporary ghetto that is given religious importance as an example of success. But many Jewish families did use oppressive policies to their benefit ultimately.

3. True, the more money you have the better the lawyer. But the more money you have the better everything is. That's just a fact of life that's not likely to change very soon.One could just as easily be talking about infant death rates. I don't think that recognizing that money indeed controls a lot more of your life than we are discussing does anything to help your argument.

jasmine

4th September 2008, 19:19

Wow Dean - way to go. I'll add my comments when I have time in the next couple of days. There's a lot to respond to here.

Jazzratt - believe it or not I wasn't attacking you (for once!) but just wondering how a post like that didn't draw more fire.

Bud Struggle

5th September 2008, 01:31

Nobody is talking about top-down change. And nobody is saying there is any direct, deliberate policy in place to encourage racism, at least not in this sense. The problem, Tom, is that you can't take criticism of our social order without appreciating some kind of blame - as I have pointed out before, I am interested in racism in the working class, but not in the sense that I want to blame someone or have them take ownership of responsibility. It is only rational to respect these problems with a dynamic interest in their solution. While you might now want to take criticism out of the social order--I for the life of me can't see the solution IN the social order. The government has been throwing money and programs at the poor people and especially the Black situation since the Johnson years.

Affirmative action being the most prominant program--which is being used bya disproportionate number of West Indians and not doing much good for African Americans. I don't think the government has a solution.

Tom, there are no two ways around: the differences in the human experience across different borders (such as geography) are conditional. And if you can recognize this, it is only rational to solve social problems with social solutions. Discouraging the mentalities that drive people to violence is part of this. In, you keep saying thing like this--but as far as I can see there is no sulution in the social range. What do youthink we should do? What's your idea for a program?

TomK, when we spoke of Israel, you decided to forego the moralistic approach and you said (paraphrased) "Israel is here to stay, so the Palestinians have to work with them." You consistently talk about real world solutions when you feel that others are not bringing that dimension into the picture. Yea, but government handouts aren't the solution. Government paternal ism isn't the solution. The Social solution is the Paternal solution.

I'm asking you to apply that same mentality here. Whether you go Indochina, Russia, Africa, Europe or the Americas, wherever you have similar conditions for the poor working class and indigent peoples you will have crime. Well the "poor" in America are certianlly wealthier than the average working class people of most of Europe let alone the rest of the world. So I don't think the analogy applies.

You can't just ask people to stop. I'm not asking people to do anything--I'm saying that if people want a better life no one is going to give it to them. The have to make it for themselves.

You need real working solutions, and one of the worst things you can do to a population which is racially targetted (if only considering statistics), grows up with parents in jail, is never given expectations to succeed academically, and is culturally saturated with racist stereotypes and hedonistic messages is to tell them that they need to change.Fine, they don't need to change and everything's wonderful.

Not everybody has the same industrious, analytical or manipulative sense of economics you seem to. Everyone's different. Fine.

Like it or not, most people in the world are filled with a range of emotions which are disinterested in, and often directly contradict, the values of the prevailing economic order. I can't speak for the world--but for the most part people in America are pretty happy. If they weren't they change things. I know I would. (But for the most part--I'm pretty happy.)

You simply cannot use personal responsibility - wherein the concerned parties take on all blame and burden of their problems - as an exclusory benchmark for success. Sorry, but I do--that's how people measure success. Yo make it yourself. It isn't "success" if someone gives it to you.

Fine, here is an article which claims that the rise in incarceration rates is due to policies: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-02.htm
This is a direct indictment of policies, rather than individual activity, as responsible for incarceration rates.I berlieveI already brought up the fact that most Blacks were in prison because of drugs and drug related crime--see that the government doing something to alleviate the drug problem in the Black community. Dean, first you complain that the government doesn't do enough--and then when it does something, you don't like what it does.

http://law.jrank.org/pages/1913/Race-Crime-Conflict-theory.html (http://law.jrank.org/pages/1913/Race-Crime-Conflict-theory.html)
Here, a policy, deliberately enforced by a dominantly white ruling class on a majority black population, coincides with racial barriers, and is understood through the lens of a Marxist theory. I've seen thatone before and yes, it looks like it's an issue, but crack is a much larger problem in the Black community than cocaine is in the white community--this is more a version of your government program thn it is racism. It's actually trying (in a particularly back handed way) the drug problem in the Black community. That's the problem with looking at things witha Marxist perspective--you miss the forrest for the trees.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0008.htm
Arrest and Incarceration rates by race CA specific.
Here we have very clear statistics that show that whites are arrested more regularly, but constitute a smaller portion of the prison population. But look at the rest rate among Blacks--it's HUGE.

http://www.isteve.com/Crime_Imprisonment_Rates_by_Race.htm
Statistics on racial disparity in the justice system and interpretation The Black community commits a vast number of more crimes than the whites--and as I said in my initial post (or one of my initial posts) almost all of the crimes Blacks commit are on ither Blacks.

Besides applying my explanation of social conditions as above, there is simply no arguing with the facts here. People don't succeed in capitalism due to some objective virtue - they succeed because they have conditions of personal capability and clear socio-economic opportunities.That's what makes America so great--all or almost all people are given those opportunities. Some people take them, some don't. It's a personal option and I respect that.

If people aren't given those options, you can't expect them to succeed - they very rarely will. As i said everyone has the same options--the thing is it still isn't easy, in fact it's very hard to succeed. But as long as the opportunity's there for those willing to work hard and smart. There's nothing to complain about.

Then feel free to respond to small parts at a time. I would much prefer multiple thoughtful responses rather than one long, rushed answer.

Thanks.

We could get into the specifics of school quality in different communities, but that would be a long discussion in itself. Suffice it to say that it is not equal. In most of the country local school boards control the way the schools are run. The problem isn't usually with the schools--it's the parent's involvement wint the kid's education.

You're saying - and I want this to be accurate - that the character of black crime alone amounts to the above statistics (specifically the California example) where the incarceration rate is so disproportionate to the arresting rate? Do you realize the significance of statistics which show such a disparity? I've taken statistics once in high school and twice in college, and I can say that such a proportional disparity is quite powerful. Do you realize the disproportunate amount of Black crime that goes on in America? My problem isn't that so many Blacks are incarcerated--it's that more whites aren't.

Firstly I have every reason to think that among all the petty-minded racists and xenophobes in our government, there are a substantial number of people who would like nothing better than to see black people once again under the whip. I don't believe that for a moment.

We have a high number of ex Klu Klux Klan for christssake. But I'm not looking for that, I'm looking for policies and social standards which engender senses of ethnic superiority or otherwise undermine efforts for equality among the races. I don't really see that at all. I'm a biy shocked at the statistics of Black crime--I knew it was high, but that's quite suprising.

As I've said time and time again, this is not about blame. I am interested in the problem as it is fundamentally, which means that we have to analyse why people commit crimes and why they are arrested and convicted for them. Well, I'm a lot more into blame--because that's where personal responsibility comes in. If you can blame someone for being in the KKK you can also blame them for holding up a 7/11. It's all about blame.

the issue of Jewish marginalization - I wouldn't describe a contemporary ghetto that is given religious importance as an example of success. Sure it is. Jews were marginalized as much as the Backs were. They were quite discriminated against. They just didn't let it stop them.

But many Jewish families did use oppressive policies to their benefit ultimately. You sound dangerously anti-Semitic there.

One could just as easily be talking about infant death rates. I don't think that recognizing that money indeed controls a lot more of your life than we are discussing does anything to help your argument.

It doesn't help or hurt--it's just the way it is--and will be for a very long time to come.

RGacky3

5th September 2008, 02:18

ANYONE, black or white or brown, that grows up in despirate situations will respond generally the same way, because of history, because of past (and sometimes present) discrimination there are proportionately more black and immigrant people in that situation, but there are also a lot of white people in that situation.

The Ultimate cause for ANYONE being in that situation is Capitalism, the reason black people are more often in that situation is history, hundreds of years of history up until recently and some of it continuing, you can't undo hundreds of years so quickly, telling people they just have to get along with it ignores the despiration and history of despiration and bleak outlook many people have. But all types of people are in that despirate situation, not just black people.

Jazzratt

5th September 2008, 07:02

Jazzratt - believe it or not I wasn't attacking you (for once!) but just wondering how a post like that didn't draw more fire.

I didn't assume you were attacking me (believe it or not :p). The posts are being expertly dissected by yourself and Dean, keep it up.

jasmine

5th September 2008, 10:40

Capitalism is ANTI-racism.

That's what makes America so great--all or almost all people are given those opportunities. Some people take them, some don't.

But the "butt"--has to be gotten off of. I'm not a racist. I just don't care.

An interesting set of premises TomK. You attack people here for having a fixed ideology. Well, the above is your ideology-lite, your explanation for the ills of the world. It’s all so obvious isn’t it.

I haven’t travelled extensively in the USA but I did spend some time in New York and Los Angeles. If you travel around these cities it rapidly becomes clear that the USA is polarised economicaly, socially and racially.

If you want I can provide statistics to back up the anecdotal impressions.

What’s your explanation for this situation? Those at the bottom of the pile, principaly African Americans, don’t do enough to help themselves. Instead they commit crime and write sexist hip hop.

This is at best asinine and lazy.

You talk about capitalism being anti-racist. I’ve heard that the US educational system isn’t the best but it surely gave you the opportunity to read a history book or two. Societies don’t just appear, they develop - the institutions, the ideologies, the social groups – over long periods time. Society as you now have it in the USA is the result of couple of hundred years of capitalism US-style.

The divide between the African Americans and respectable white society is the direct product of this development. Do you think you can ship people in as slaves, then get them to fight in your civil war, give them voting rights which most of them were unable to exercise for 100 years, subject them to segregation (not to mention the KKK, lynchings etc.) and this history will have no effect on the culture which develops inside the community and its perception of white people, or, indeed, the perception white people have of African Americans?

Your perception and your simplistic ideology TomK is also a result of this history and culture. And it is racist and hostile because you judge an ethnic group with a complete disregard for the social pressures that have been exerted against it for two or three hundred years.

Capitalism has created a massive social problem which can only be resolved by social measures – if you really think capitalism is such a benign system perhaps you’d like to think about what these measures might be and let go of the racist stereotype of lazy, criminal blacks.

You claim to be here to learn. Now would be a good time to start.

jasmine

5th September 2008, 11:08

Also here's an interesting article about Britain which also has a long capitalist/racist history - it deals with institutionalised racism in the schools

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/sep/05/raceineducation.raceinschools

Racism isn't confined to KKK cross-burners Tomk.

Bud Struggle

5th September 2008, 11:45

An interesting set of premises TomK. You attack people here for having a fixed ideology. Well, the above is your ideology-lite, your explanation for the ills of the world. It’s all so obvious isn’t it. It's one line of quite a few lines in quite a few posts. :)

I haven’t travelled extensively in the USA but I did spend some time in New York and Los Angeles. If you travel around these cities it rapidly becomes clear that the USA is polarised
economicaly, socially and racially. I've been saying that, too.

If you want I can provide statistics to back up the anecdotal impressions. No need, I agree.

What’s your explanation for this situation? Those at the bottom of the pile, principaly African Americans, don’t do enough to help themselves. That would be true. I guess you fell they aren't capible of helping themselves, so they need the help of government.

Instead they commit crime and write sexist hip hop. Well the crime statistics reported by Dean above are quite staggering. Granted a lot of the crimes are drug related, but the numbers are astounding.

This is at best asinine and lazy. As you wish. :)

You talk about capitalism being anti-racist. I've said that there is no concerted Capitalist policy of racism. I never said that individuals aren't racist.

I’ve heard that the US educational system isn’t the best but it surely gave you the opportunity to read a history book or two. I'm a product of private education. :)

Societies don’t just appear, they develop - the institutions, the ideologies, the social groups – over long periods time. Society as you now have it in the USA is the result of couple of hundred years of capitalism US-style. It's hard to disagree there! :)[/quote]

The divide between the African Americans and respectable white society is the direct product of this development. Do you think you can ship people in as slaves, then get them to fight in your civil war, give them voting rights which most of them were unable to exercise for 100 years, subject them to segregation (not to mention the KKK, lynchings etc.) and this history will have no effect on the culture which develops inside the community and its perception of white people, or, indeed, the perception white people have of African Americans? I'm not expecting it, but to be honest that's all there is. No government program is going tohelp. They've all been tried. Either people have to change their own lives or they stay where they are. I would be happy if there was a program that worked. "The Projects." "Affirmative Action" all that stuff. But it doesn't. And as a matter of fact others (West Indians) are taling up the slack left by African American in filling those slots open by the government.

Your perception and your simplistic ideology TomK is also a result of this history and culture. And it is racist and hostile because you judge an ethnic group with a complete disregard for the social pressures that have been exerted against it for two or three hundred years. I understand those pressures--BUT and this is a big but, NOTHING is going to change, no government policy is going to help, society isn't going to be any different IF the Blacks don't start digging themselves out of the hole they are in.

Capitalism has created a massive social problem which can only be resolved by social measures No the social measures aren't going to help. First of all they don't work and second of all there's no more "programs" in the pipeline so Blacks have to realize they are on their own. That's it. Maybe we can all hope for the Revolution to change all of this, but for now that's all there is,

– if you really think capitalism is such a benign system perhaps you’d like to think about what these measures might be and let go of the racist stereotype of lazy, criminal blacks. I never said lazy--My point was more "misdirected." As as far as the criminal element--I'm all for the decrimilization of drugs--so that should ease a good deal of that pressure on the Black community.

Now, aren't things more clear since we've had this little chat?

You claim to be here to learn. Now would be a good time to start.

Indeed. Have a nice day. :)

(Sorry, no time to proof read for spelling--done in great haste.)

jasmine

5th September 2008, 13:52

It's one line of quite a few lines in quite a few posts.

It's actually three brief lines from separate posts -

Capitalism is ANTI-racism.

That's what makes America so great--all or almost all people are given those opportunities. Some people take them, some don't.

But the "butt"--has to be gotten off of. I'm not a racist. I just don't care.

It's your mantra, it's what you keep saying in one form or another, it's all you're saying.

I'm a product of private education.

Maybe the money could have been spent more wisely.

That would be true. I guess you fell they aren't capible of helping themselves, so they need the help of government.

It's a bit like organising the 100 meter sprint at the Olympics like this:

Black runners are perfectly free to take part but they have to start 50 meters behind the rest. To the question - how can a black runner ever win? - your answer would be, "they'll have to learn to run faster."

I understand those pressures--BUT and this is a big but, NOTHING is going to change, no government policy is going to help, society isn't going to be any different IF the Blacks don't start digging themselves out of the hole they are in.

I don't think you understand the pressures at all - if you did understand even in a small way I don't think you'd be so hostile.

You had a private education. Where would you be if you'd started out in the ghetto? Still there almost certainly. You seem pretty mainstream/average.

No the social measures aren't going to help. First of all they don't work and second of all there's no more "programs" in the pipeline so Blacks have to realize they are on their own. That's it. Maybe we can all hope for the Revolution to change all of this, but for now that's all there is

The point of social measures is to close the gap, to remove as far as possible the 50 meters. The problem is pretty profound and requires sustained action over several generations. Of course a quick fix program will fail - you're dealing with the problems generated by your beloved capitalism over a period of two to three hundred years.

But you just throw your hands up. Nothing can be done says TomK. It's official. As you admitted, you just don't care.

Dean

5th September 2008, 14:12

TomK, I'll wait until tonight or tomorrow to respond. I won't have much time at work today.

pusher robot

5th September 2008, 15:33

I haven’t travelled extensively in the USA but I did spend some time in New York and Los Angeles. If you travel around these cities it rapidly becomes clear that the USA is polarised economicaly, socially and racially.

Please tell me you didn't just judge the whole United States based on New York and LA. I mean, really? Those places are practically a whole different world apart from what most Americans live in. That's as ridiculous as judging China by visiting Hong Kong.

pusher robot

5th September 2008, 15:47

It's a bit like organising the 100 meter sprint at the Olympics like this:
Black runners are perfectly free to take part but they have to start 50 meters behind the rest. To the question - how can a black runner ever win? - your answer would be, "they'll have to learn to run faster."

I disagree with your analogy. Rules of sports are like rules of law, and under the rules of law there is no 50 meter handicap. The rules have been fixed.

Rather, the current situation is more analogous to me, a couch commando, deciding to race against a professional athlete. I really want to win, and I could possibly win - but I would have to work much harder, much longer to win that race than the pro athlete would. Suppose further that I am unwilling to change my lifestyle in any significant way, because I think it's unfair that I have to work hard and the pro athlete does not. But I still want to win.

What is your response to this situation? Do you start handicapping the pro athlete to make it so I don't have to work long and hard to get myself in shape? Do you shower me with resources in the hope that maybe I'll change my mind and start to work out? Just declare that racing is not necessary, everyone's a winner?

jasmine

5th September 2008, 15:59

Please tell me you didn't just judge the whole United States based on New York and LA. I mean, really? Those places are practically a whole different world apart from what most Americans live in. That's as ridiculous as judging China by visiting Hong Kong.

No I didn't. It's anecdotal, but do you deny how polarised the US is?

Rather, the current situation is more analogous to me, a couch commando, deciding to race against a professional athlete. I really want to win, and I could possibly win - but I would have to work much harder, much longer to win that race than the pro athlete would. Suppose further that I am unwilling to change my lifestyle in any significant way, because I think it's unfair that I have to work hard and the pro athlete does not. But I still want to win.

Ludicrous. Being born into a black ghetto is a lifestyle choice?

pusher robot

5th September 2008, 19:19

No I didn't. It's anecdotal, but do you deny how polarised the US is?

We haven't established how polarized it is, so I can't deny it. There is polarization. I don't think it centers around the axis you think it does.

Ludicrous. Being born into a black ghetto is a lifestyle choice?

No, but choosing to accept those circumstances is. The battle that we are trying to fight is peoples' unwillingness to do anything meaningful to change. Granted, their attitude may be understandable. We can sympathize with the feeling. However, that doesn't change the fact that it simply isn't possible to help someone who has already given up on themselves.

Bud Struggle

5th September 2008, 22:39

It's actually three brief lines from separate posts Actually when I first responded it was only ONE line. Your initial post seems to have been amended since I responded.

It's your mantra, it's what you keep saying in one form or another, it's all you're saying. Well, I hope I'm saying a bit more.

Maybe the money could have been spent more wisely. That hope would always be lurking in the hearts ofmen and women.

It's a bit like organising the 100 meter sprint at the Olympics like this:

Black runners are perfectly free to take part but they have to start 50 meters behind the rest. To the question - how can a black runner ever win? - your answer would be, "they'll have to learn to run faster." Brother Pusher has responded to this better than I ever could. so please respond to him. :)

I don't think you understand the pressures at all - if you did understand even in a small way I don't think you'd be so hostile. I'm NOT hostile, but I apologize if I have come off that way. I may have been a but brusk in my responses.

You had a private education. Catholic schools.
would you be if you'd started out in the ghetto? I kind of did start out in a ghetto a Polish one in Connecticut. Different than a Black ghetto, I guess. They don't exist anymore, but I started out poor as all get out a son of immigrant parents from Poland, my mom never learned to speak English, she never had to--everyone spoke Polish. anyway my dad worked in a factory and we had the whole four kids in a 1,200sf house story. My mom made my clothes. She even made me a lime green suit that I used on job interviews when I graduated from college. Maybe that's why no one ever hiredme. Anyway, we were poor.

You seem pretty mainstream/average. Most people wouldn't agree with that. :)

The point of social measures is to close the gap, to remove as far as possible the 50 meters. The problem is pretty profound and requires sustained action over several generations. Of course a quick fix program will fail - you're dealing with the problems generated by your beloved capitalism over a period of two to three hundred years. I just don't see those social measures WORKING. If they did, I'd be all for them.

But you just throw your hands up. Nothing can be done says TomK. It's official. As you admitted, you just don't care. I don't care if you are waiting for some social program to come along and save all the Blacksw by some government grant or program. You are waisting my time and yours. But if you want to interest and teach Blacks to become business people and become successful on their own terms without handouts and programs--I'm all for that. That why I teach business ownership in the Florida State Prison system. Hopefully, I will get some of these guys (a male prison) to start up a business on their own and become a success. (Actually, one of my former students started a sub shop in Orlando--and from what I here he employs 7 people and is doing pretty well.)

jasmine

6th September 2008, 10:55

Bud Struggle

6th September 2008, 14:11

TomK - there are so many cross-currents in your description of yourself that it's hard to know what to believe. You attack Blacks quite savagely at one point and then claim (later), when you've come under fire, to be teaching them business and one of your students is succesful etc. I don't attack Blacks. I attack the parts of their culture that I think keeping them down and oppressed--at least the things that are keeping them down and oppressed that they could change. I don't think there is anything productive in hip-hop culture for Black or whites at all (just my opinion) I think of Blacks want to get aheas they have to mainstream in everyday American culture--just as the Jews did in the past and the Hispanics are doing now quite well--just look at the business growth in Miami where the Cubans have virtually taken over that town. Also, the Mexican immigrants are now at the lowest rung of the economic ladder, but I have no doubt they will move ahead very quickly. The blacks need to do something similar.

You come from a desperately poor family but had private education. Catholic Schools? Does this mean you were subsidised/helped by a Catholic charity. Because there's no way the family you describe could have paid for it. (so subsides are good sometimes?) That's the funny thing about being old--things were inexpensive then. My tuition in my parish church when I was in Elementry school was $100. We were taught by the nuns. It's when Catholic schools had to hire outside secular teacher they becams expensive. So in a way the Catholic Church subsidized itself--the parishioners gave on occasion gave one of it's children to become a nun or a priest to subsidize the tuition and other costs for the other parishioners. More like a co-op than subsidation. Anyway, in NYC for example most of the students in the Catholic school system are Black kids that aren't Catholic--the Archdiocese runs these schools at it's own expense to provide a better alternative to the NYC school system.

This is leaving aside the business/family man in his forties who unaccountably spends so much time posting here and a number of other things I've noticed. I try to never spend two days doing the same thing. It's not like I have a job. As far as what I do and who I am--I've been pretty consistant about that since I got here.

Anyway here's an interesting article about racism in America - it's really worth reading all the way through, the punchline is at the end.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/sep/06/wire