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James
4th February 2003, 23:03
Lords Reform:
Another Defeat for Democracy
Another Victory for Dictatorship
Tuesday February 4, 2003

In New Labour’s 1997 election manifesto, New Labour promised a reform of the House of Lords.

The reform of the House of Lords is a rather long and complicated one, this is partly due to the actions and efforts of the ‘forces that be’ (i.e. Tony and the boys). Plans to reform the House of Lords are frequently crowed by Labour and the Liberal Democrats - but they are never that high on the agenda, and rarely materialise into any real substance producing proper results.

Patriots of the Lords often argue that it has many useful functions, for example delaying bills in order that governments will think them through again and thus improve upon the original. Correcting, so that amendments can be made to government bills in the interests of the country. Many great debates have taken place in the house and it is aruged that debating is a strong feat of the Lords as they have plenty of time and little political bias to obstruct the efficiency of their debates. And finally the safe guarding of human rights so that if a government took power and wanted to use its powers to target individual liberties, then the house could act as a stalwart against the “elective dictatorship” that would be the Commons. All in all the Lords is acting as one of the many checks and balances that make our system fair, just and democratic.

But let us look at these in more detail before we raise the flag and start blindly saluting:

Delaying bills, true whilst this may be 'useful' what right do unrepresentative, unaccountable and out-of-touch individuals have to infringe on the bills created by a fully elected (in theory) and accountable (in theory) body?

Amendments, (please see above). In addition, this is very dangerous because it's one step further than delaying. Instead of simply stopping a bill from being passed for a year or two, this 'function' allows this oligarchy body to change bills beyond recognition of the original which has been drawn up by the representatives who are accountable and in theory in touch with the people etc.

Debating, I’m glad that the House of Lords debates issues! If it wasn’t for this body, I’m sure there would be no debate in the country outside the House of Commons…

Safe Guarding Human Rights, this particular argument looks good on paper, but let’s look at in reality shall we? My biggest concern is that the House of Lords is afraid to act on issues that this argument deals with, i.e. The really important issues. It would be afraid to act, because if the Government is big enough (that is, has a big enough majority - no. of seats) to pass through a bill reducing personal liberty - then it will be easily big enough to force bills through the Lords. Bills can be forced by a big government, by simple threats of swamping with bill-friendly individuals and/or simple reform/disbanding.

‘What’s the alternative though?’ the traditionalist calls; in-between salutes, ‘well a fully elected second chamber of course!’ the rationalist replies.

Returning to the original theme of the article though, what has Labour done since 1997? Bearing in mind that the government has had 6 years now to act upon this promise. Well this is where the path gets rather clouded. No one is quite sure!

There are reports though that a Commission was eventually set up made up of 24 in all including members of both the Commons and the Lords, with Robin ‘goblin’ Cook heading it. The committee finally reported back in December and after many ‘set backs’, resulting with several ‘recommendations’ in a very long report.

Including the brain boggling options, 0%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60% and 80% elected, with the rest being appointed. It was rather a disappointment to see such quality of “recommendations”especially considering the length of time and resources spent on the matter. The report is available to the public and I personally do not advise you to seek out and read it, on the account that it’s boring and states the obvious.

The Peers (Lords seated in the house) today backed a fully appointed House of Lords (Surprise, surprise!), the vote going 335 to 110 - a majority of 225.
I shall let you pick yourself up from the floor now after that big shock! It gets more amazing though as they also rejected the option of a fully elected house by 329 votes to 106 in another vote.

But seriously, is a chamber such as the House of Lords going to vote itself out?

The decisions show support for the view of the Lord Chancellor, Lord Irvine (Who is going to be retiring on a package worth £2m from the taxpayer under a special deal offered to the country's three 'great offices of state.') and the Prime Minister, Tony Blair told the Commons last week that he was against a "hybrid" upper house made up of democratically elected peers, so does this mean he’s against a democratic chamber? Well, I think it’s probably more a case of he just wants more ‘jobs for the boys’. After all, the civil service must be getting rather full of the boys by now.

The leader of the Conservative peers, Lord Strathclyde, said: "The prime minister has said he is not in favour of elections and that Lords should be aware that whatever happens there is unlikely to be any legislation this side of the general election."

These ‘crucial’ votes on the future composition of the Lords follow ‘recommendations’ from the joint committee on Lords reform. The committee is now meant to debate (But doesn’t that only happen in the Lords?) the results and come back with even more ‘recommendations’ (Oh woopie!), sometime after the half term parliamentary recess. When precisely though is a mystery to everyone, including the goblin I suspect.

Invader Zim
6th February 2003, 20:05
Yes i agree with a lot of what you say. Personally i believe that the lords should be an elected body with a number of senior judges ect who are apointed by by an indipendant body of civil servants with no party bias or asperations...

However the Lords annoys me by always amending or delaying the FOX HUNTING BILL which is just wrong.

James
6th February 2003, 20:08
hey man, thanks for reading the thing. Its greatly appreciated.
I didn't go into how i think it should be changed, because that would have been too long.

Basically though i support billy brags idea (? ) of proportional representation in the Lords, with less powers than the commons.

This is a great op to make our system more democratic. Think about it, more people would vote in PR, because ur vote really makes a diff

Invader Zim
6th February 2003, 20:56
Agreed. PR is the first step in making this country better. When i vote it will probebly be for the LIB DEMS though, because they are better far better that the other 2 shitty party's.

James
6th February 2003, 23:16
ache, I may vote for Libs so that we can have a more effective opposition. Because this is what our country lacks at the moment. A great deal.

alexia
7th February 2003, 21:01
yeah but if only half the ppl who mistakenly voted "Labour" last time vote Lib Dem then we r stuck with Duncan Smith!!!!! Tempting! While the country runs on what is basically a two party system its a question of the lesser of two evils.........tho at the mo i dunno which the lesser one is!

James
7th February 2003, 23:38
Well after seeing IDS and Kennedy talk to a crowd (me in it), IDS was for sure a much stronger speaker.

But the Liberal party is stronger.

Its tricky...
If they just got rid of Kennedy.........

Just Joe
8th February 2003, 01:32
IDS is a Thatcherite. ANYONE, even Blair, is better than a Thatcherite.

Invader Zim
10th February 2003, 16:28
IDS is weak and every body ignors him.

Whats wrong with Kennedy any way i rather like him he has some good views.

James
10th February 2003, 16:47
How do you define Thatcherite?
Because Blair is for more so in terms f leadership style than IDS is. However, this is allowed because of the sheer no. of Labour seats. ie A big majority means a leader can be more hardline, where as in a small majority the leader has to care for all the main groups in his party.

Kennedy;
Have you seen him speak? He is really really boring. I mean, REALLY. So he has very poor public speaking skills.
His policies seem to be reactionary as well... no firm ideology from what i've gathered.

Lets look at how they were formed as well - formed from the right of Labour, and left of Conservatives.
Should give you an idea of their political stance in general.

They are only to the left of NEW labour because its the only place to go really. They can't go centre right; because Labour are there, and can't really go anyfurther to the right because of their political stance (ie they are a central party) of the Lib dems, and the Tories cover pritty much all of the less extreme right.

So the left of New Labour is the only place they can go.
Does that make sense?

Just Joe
10th February 2003, 16:52
IDS's hero is Thatcher. nuff said.

i think Kennedy said the other day "politics is no longer a battle between left and right. its a battle between liberal and non-liberal".

thats sums up UK politics. the actual Labour Party is left wing buts its leadership is centre to centre/right. Tories are the opposite with a right wing base and a wet/fairly right leadership. and as you say, the Lib Dems are just rectionary with no real ideology.

(Edited by Just Joe at 4:53 pm on Feb. 10, 2003)

James
10th February 2003, 16:58
Blair's hero is Thatcher too! seriously!! i'll try find this certain quote for you...

i think Kennedy said the other day "politics is no longer a battle between left and right. its a battle between liberal and non-liberal".


Its because the left is "asleep" at the mo. We live in a VERY right wing country, so its basically just about how to run this right wing place.

Invader Zim
10th February 2003, 17:23
People keep on slagging the Lib Dems for having no ideology. Thats crap. They have loads of ideology, PR, the Euro, Heath care reforms, Tax increase on rich, Education spending, ect. They have got more ideology than the other two parties thats for sure.

Anonymous
10th February 2003, 18:54
Itll take a lot of reform to break their image from that off a non-existent wishy washy party. I think the most crucial factor would have to be a strong leader.

James: I dont think you can compare IDS and Kennedy during that speech. IDS had a hostile audience urging him on, forcing him to be more charismatic. Kennedy was sprouting policies which most of the audience agreed with and had little opportunity to excel. He just needed to talk and watch the nods of agreement,

James
10th February 2003, 23:02
People keep on slagging the Lib Dems for having no ideology. Thats crap. They have loads of ideology, PR, the Euro, Heath care reforms, Tax increase on rich, Education spending, ect. They have got more ideology than the other two parties thats for sure.

This may be just my opinion.. but all that seems like POLICY rather than IDEOLOGY.

And FM; yes good points. However, as you were present too - you are well aware how his voice is sooooooooooo boring...

Invader Zim
11th February 2003, 19:56
Fair point...

Saint-Just
11th February 2003, 20:11
What will happen to the Labour party eventually? Will it turn towards the left again? Who will succeed Blair, Brown? Will their ever be a split with the left-wing Labour perhaps under leadership of Cook?

At the moment the conservatives do not have an ideology either, since Labour took it - neo-liberalism -now all they have is policy. Lib Dems, as said do not have one either, just policies. Labour has adopted the right-wing position.

James
11th February 2003, 20:54
What will happen to the Labour party eventually? Will it turn towards the left again? Who will succeed Blair, Brown? Will their ever be a split with the left-wing Labour perhaps under leadership of Cook?

Well its REALLY hard to say. Labour has its grass roots in the Trade Unions, so there is still potential. But British politics is becoming less of a class issue, and is fought over issues of the day; such as Education, Education, Education, Crime, Health and Immigration etc.
New Labour has recieved substantial funding from big corporations though... so don't hold you breath.

At the moment the conservatives do not have an ideology either, since Labour took it - neo-liberalism -now all they have is policy. Lib Dems, as said do not have one either, just policies. Labour has adopted the right-wing position.

So true.

Invader Zim
11th February 2003, 21:28
We should create are own party as all the rest are crap. (unfortunatly so is the communist party but thats tough for us)

James
11th February 2003, 22:03
the last thing we need is ANOTHER party...

alexia
11th February 2003, 22:10
True - the Lib Dems and the Tories have no ideology, only policy but Labour has no policies only ideology. It has its roots in Trade Unions but is fighting them rather than working with them, and despite education education education higher ed will soon be an impossibilty for the middle classes. All Blair is interested in at the mo is Iraq n Bush and all the rest of the Cabinet do is oppose him and argue among themselves.
Labour have abandoned their old ideology and taken their arch nemisis', and left their old policies behind too but have neglected to create any new ones, except for "lets piss off as much of the supporting public as we can". If they dont get their act together soon, I can't see them getting re-elected......but who will take over in their place?????

James
11th February 2003, 22:26
No, they do have an ideology.

"The Third Way"

!





.

Anonymous
11th February 2003, 23:04
It is m personal belief that 'New Labour' will continue to exist until it suffers a major calamity originating from its own ideology. Brown or another New Labour prospect (probably chosen by Alaister C) will succeed Blair and that right wing leftism will continue until it is no longer succesful and the left wing members (providing they have not split to set up their own party) will call for a new left wing ideology which will restore old Labour values.

James
11th February 2003, 23:16
I think Iraq is going to be a tester here...

Labour has dropped one to only one point ahead of the Tories now... Its lost ALOT of its original support...

However, Murdoch has declared his support for Blair, so we shall probably see popularity increase again.

Anonymous
12th February 2003, 20:03
Murdock is an idiot. And i still think Blair has the support even with Iraq, support from those who will believe what America says.

And to really unseat him another party has to come out with a viable alternative to war. Their silence offers no realistic option.

James
12th February 2003, 20:09
Kennedy is anti war - he's going to the protest in London.

Anonymous
12th February 2003, 21:18
Hes on a debate on BBC1 now. Rather nice quote from a Tory, 'sitting on every fence'.

There was an argument that America was crap at bringing Democracy to countries. Someone stood up and said that America was responsible for bringing democracy to France, Germany and Japan. I turned off at that point. Cant stand the history according to America.

Saint-Just
12th February 2003, 21:43
'the last thing we need is ANOTHER party... '

Very true, Britain needs less parties, that would solve some of its problems.

'I think Iraq is going to be a tester here...

Labour has dropped one to only one point ahead of the Tories now... Its lost ALOT of its original support... '

If people don't support Labour on Iraq they won't decide to vote Conservative instead since the Conservative would be the ones who would bluster into war even faster (if thats possible).

The Conservatives won't recover for around 5-10 years, many in the party are predicting that. They need to resolve the Europe dispute, not that its a dispute evident to the public, but it stops them being able to form a strong internal. They also need a competent leader. They also need an ideology that Labour has not stolen from them. I know the 'third way'/'communitarianism' is slightly more left wing than the Conservative ideologies (neo-liberalism or even one nation). However, it is only marginal and 'third way' appears to be similarly as effective as either of the conservative ideologies. Its only pitfall is one that some one in the chancellor's ministry pointed out; that if they keep going down the privatisation path public services will end up... well you can imagine.


'Murdock is an idiot.'

Yes...if you read any of his 'newspapers' or 'magazines'(I would not advise doing so, even if you're curious) i'm sure you'll find he's not alone in his idiocy.

Just Joe
12th February 2003, 22:18
Quote: from James on 8:09 pm on Feb. 12, 2003
Kennedy is anti war - he's going to the protest in London.


if he was in power, he'd be pro-war. same as if Blair was in opposition, he'd be anti. the Lib Dems are just trying to pull in more votes by being the peace party. the Tories couldn't do it and Labour are in power, so someone had to fill the void.

Chairman Mao, d'you think theres anywhere really left for the Tories to go? i don't see reform as an option. there seen as the bastard party by too many to attract the populist vote. the only thing they can do is hope Labour fuck up and play there old quasi-nationalist card. i think they'll fizzle out personally.

Anonymous
12th February 2003, 23:16
No, any party can reinvent itself. The Tories can develop a new philosophy. And even if they have the bastard image, people love a bastard if they will get something from it.

Just Joe
12th February 2003, 23:21
but where will they go? New Labour have middle England and still pull in the working class vote. Tories only have left suburban upper middle class areas like the South East.

New Labour have only reformed, not transformed there ideology. they still are seen as a working mans party. the Tories just combine patriotism with free market economics. they are finished because too get back into power, they'd have to re-write the ideology that keeps members there at the moment.

Anonymous
12th February 2003, 23:28
Labour still a party for the working class? You cant say that when you read the back of the membership card.

The Tories arent going to lose the Intelligent nationalist vote and simply need to centre themselves. No leftist will vote for anything but New Labour because there is no option just as hard-line Tories will support the party whatever becasue Labour is not an option. They need to produce the image of a caring government who does it upmost to ensure personal freedom for the country, sort of American ideals, freedom to pursue their own goals with minimal of government interference. Sort of reform their policy and try to capture Middle England back.

Just Joe
12th February 2003, 23:32
Labour isn't for the working class. but its still seen that way by many dogmatic working class folk.

yeah i suppose the way they could win back the people would be a sort of US Republican ideology. i don't think people would go for that though.

Anonymous
12th February 2003, 23:50
Probably right, its all in the hands of New Labour, the Tories wont be able to do anything until New Labour fucks up.

Invader Zim
13th February 2003, 19:29
To be honist i hope that Tony Blair gets slaughtered next election and as long as the BMP dont get in i dont care who does as long as Tony Blair is out.

Anonymous
13th February 2003, 19:33
The BNP wont get in, but to be frank, i think Tony is still the best leader the parties have on offer. IDS and Kennedy would probably be shite PMs.

Saint-Just
13th February 2003, 21:01
Just Joe:

One Tory member recently broke off from the party to form a party called 'The Progressive Party', a party of conservative Euro-philes. It is suspected that in the future, when there is a split over the Europe issue that many more will move to this new party (possibly when we join the single currency). However, as you know Britain has no taste for anything new names, Britain likes the names they're used too. So its unlikely they will do well, and unlikely that will win over that many conservative members.

There are a number of people in the party who do not suppot IDS and are waiting for him to fail (there is a theory they put him in place to fail so they could have time to find someone more suitable). Portillo could lead the party however he won't because of the complications of his personal life; newspapers would quickly disentegrate any integrity he ever had. That guy... a little bald, of substantial build and not particularly tall, a euro supporter in the party (For some reason I really can't remember his name) - could lead the party, and its likely he would do well, however the fact that he is an advocate of Europe would mean only half the party would support him whilst half would strongly oppose. So, there are no viable leaders currently. The split with the Euro-sceptics is about 50/50. Thats why its such a tough issue for the party.

Conservative Party's ideology is unlikely to alter much, more left and they would be further left of Labour, so its impossible. More right and they'd be back at Thatcherism. They are close to being Thatcherite anyway, the economic policies of Labour are largely neo-liberal inspired, Conservative ones currently follow suite. I do not think they would experiment with Thatcherism too soon since it would do little to elevate their image to that of a caring party. I think they will stay where they are, eventually Labour will lose some popularity and the Conservatives will gain competent leadership. However, its going to be a long time, its highly unlikely they will 'fizzle out'

Blair will likely stay in for another 6-8 years (to the end of his 3rd term). I think Labour will win that election after Blair leaves, with a new leader of course (likely Brown). Brownites are slightly left of Blair's 'third way', however its not a substantial amount, could marginally warm the hearts of any left-wing Labour members after the reign of Blair. Conservatives would have more idelogical ground if Brown became leader as less of the right would be taken up.

Blair's ambitions reside with Europe, he will likely join the Euro in his third term.

This is what most predict...but...who knows.

(Edited by Chairman Mao at 9:05 pm on Feb. 13, 2003)

Anonymous
13th February 2003, 21:22
Thatcher killed all the potential leaders of the party, think it will be at least another 8 years befoer someone will be able to come through to succesfully lead the Tories.

Mao, some very good points raised there, im prepared to agree wiht many of those predictions.