Why is the BNP fascist? [Archive]

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Dr Mindbender

26th July 2008, 00:06

Mindtoaster

26th July 2008, 18:12

From what I understand they plan to deport all immigrants, legal and illegal, don't they?

Dr Mindbender

26th July 2008, 18:16

From what I understand they plan to deport all immigrants, legal and illegal, don't they?
they wont say that directly. Try to have a debate with a BNP'er and they will dance half-heartedly round that sentiment.

rednordman

26th July 2008, 20:14

I'v got to laugh at these people. I'v seen this arguement before many many times and it is more of a good thing because it makes them look even more daft by the minute:laugh:.
Regardless of what "excuses" they (BNP Supporters) come up with one thing is clear..and that is that they (BNP Party and policies) are Blatantly fascist. There is no two ways about it. I would honestly go so far as to say that people who try and say they are not, probably do not understand either, the BNP policies, or what 'fascism' is. If you want anymore evidence about it, go on to the bnp website and see that daft BNPtv thing that they have going on. I saw it the otherday to see what the fuss was about, and was quite shocked to hear exactly how Nick Griffin spoke, he was straight out of the Union of Fascists league of the 30s and 40s. It suprised me as i have never seen him make a speech, only pictures of him. All i can say is that they may try and white wash their alterior motives, but one thing is for sure. Any member of that party has nothing but sheer contempt for many people within our society. I could honestly tell by the way that that twat of a leader spoke that he could never ever accept anyone other than 100% white british as anything other than a 'visitor' to this country (So that puts me, my brothers and my mum on a ship out of here:rolleyes:)
Anyhows back to the question why is the BNP facist?... well, its actually all in their policies funnly enough, so non of thier supporters can argue. More to do with how they want to carry them out. Will probably elaborate this point tommorow in more detail as their is lot to it (as you problably know) .

I would recommend a book called Anatomy of Fascism by Rob Paxton. It does not touch the BNP exactly, but talks more about the history, development and characteristics of fascism in an excellent way. Before i read it, i was unsure as to whether or not the BNP where actually a fascist danger, but rather just 'populist' and 'anti-immigration' (which can be different, still bad though) After reading the book and doing a bit of background research on the party im pretty convinced that it would be a catastrophy if they where to get any serious power within this country.

Colonello Buendia

27th July 2008, 20:46

Dr Mindbender

27th July 2008, 21:13

they're not fascist if you take that to mean supporter of Benito Mussolini, but then again neither was hitler. However in the broad sense of the term I'd say they are. They essentially believe that british people are the best and anyone else should get the fuck away. so yeah they're fascists.
try and tell that to a certain BNP'er over on UK debates.

All he has is the same tired rebuttals that involve linking to the BNP website.

Sam_b

27th July 2008, 21:34

It has to be remembered that racism is not a trait of fascism, far from it in fact. This is what made Nazism stand out: it was fascism coupled with strong racial superiority theory. And its exactly the same as the BNP.

Strong natioalism and support of armed forces is a classic trait of fascism: and one that the BNP supports entirely (such as its policy of the British flag being flown from all government and state buildings, schools etc). Subsequantly, the BNP is heavily in favour of the state.

In the last local and London elections, the party opted for a populist approach: one which has been tried and tested within the fascist movement. Opting for vote-stealing of traditional conservative values ("Tory supporters like you voting British National Party") and focusing on housing, dropping more of its contentious manifesto pledges of recent years; it attempts to build a broad supporters base in the same way as Hitler attempted in the 1930s.

nuisance

27th July 2008, 21:53

it attempts to build a broad supporters base in the same way as Hitler attempted in the 1930s.
Yes. It is extremely important that people remember that many of the BNPs top members, including Griffin, have been active members of the NF, C18 and other fascist groups. Whether the BNP is a guise for the real fascist ideas or not, they must be stopped.

Revolutiondownunder

29th July 2008, 03:31

disobey

29th July 2008, 09:18

Revolutiondownunder

30th July 2008, 16:32

He had two Jewish girlfriends, the first being his mistress, Margherita Sarfatti, whom he met in 1911.

And you're correct there were many high ranking Jewish fascists prior to the rise in anti-semitism, often land owners, bankers and other parts of the middle classes who saw in fascism a common goal of protecting their capital and the status quo. however many of them and their families were turned on and murdered later on by the party.

So if Nazism is anti-semitic and fascism is not, what defines fascism?

Not taking the piss here, just a little confused. Was hitler fascist or was he nazi or was he both? is nazism worse than just plain facism?:(

politics student

30th July 2008, 17:25

So if Nazism is anti-semitic and fascism is not, what defines fascism?

Not taking the piss here, just a little confused. Was hitler fascist or was he nazi or was he both? is nazism worse than just plain facism?:(

Nazism is part of fascism.

Fascism developed with part of the anti enlightenment movement, it holds strong views of elite of society either based on family blood lines, ethnicity or culture.

It has some extreme forms of nationalism normally fascism aims to bring back or promise to create a new empire.

I wish I could remember more to be honest considering how many essays I wrote for politics exams but short term memory seems to be removing all those month of revision to give you a fully detailed answer. Pm me if you want to know more I can always go over my study and a few of my books to fully explain fascism to you. I could do with something to do. :)

nuisance

30th July 2008, 17:37

So if Nazism is anti-semitic and fascism is not, what defines fascism?
Ultra nationalism and the myth of nation
Coroporatism
Anti-Rationalism
Militarism
Totalitarianism
collectivism
and other a few other things.

Not taking the piss here, just a little confused. Was hitler fascist or was he nazi or was he both? is nazism worse than just plain facism?:(
Hitler was a nazi, not fascist. He did take many of the ideas of Mussolini's fascism yet incoroporated racialism into the agenda and had different social and economic acts.

Devrim

30th July 2008, 23:07

Philosophical Materialist

31st July 2008, 00:17

I don't think it is really. I think that it is a nationalist-populist party. In Britain it has no chance of coming to power, and could only fantasise about the anti-working class, anti-ethnic minority measures that have been introduced by the Labour and the conservative party separately, let alone between them.

Of course it gives leftists something to scream about.

Devrim

It does seem rather fascist to me. It does appear to stand for a corporatist state, and a fascist concept of history, culture, race and ethnicity. It has a great deal of military fetishism and would militarise British society with conscription and the training of ethnically-pure militias "to defend against criminals" (i.e. anyone who opposes fascism, ethnic minorities)

Its platform is carefully-worded, but it does state that it is for the repatriation of non-Caucasians, whether UK citizens or not. This tends to be beyond the proposals that populist-nationalist parties advocate.

It also plans to use legislation to enforce "truth" in the media, so you can imagine what that would entail.

The BNP do not intend to play bourgeois parliamentarianism, in fact it is very anti-liberal and would seek to destroy liberal bourgeois democracy and implement fascism with characteristics of violent racial nationalism.

Devrim

31st July 2008, 05:40

Its platform is carefully-worded, but it does state that it is for the repatriation of non-Caucasians, whether UK citizens or not. This tends to be beyond the proposals that populist-nationalist parties advocate.

I have just read through the relevant section of their manifesto (they don't seem to have a 'platform' at all), and they don't call for that. Neither is it carefully worded. I was quite surprised at how blatant they were.

Devrim

Revolutiondownunder

31st July 2008, 13:33

Hitler was a nazi, not fascist. He did take many of the ideas of Mussolini's fascism yet incoroporated racialism into the agenda and had different social and economic acts.

Thats interesting.

So if the BNP are moving away from anti-semitism and towards Islamaphobia but are keeping the same economic policy [anti-worker etc] does that mean that they are moving away from nazism and towards fascism?

What are the BNPs views on the state? The nazis and the Fascists in Italy were for a strong state I know that much

[no I dont want to go to their site to find out, I dont want to get my computer polluted by racist garbage]

Im just happy overall that we dont seem to have any BNP type people where I live, no fascists at all really [except those in the government:crying:]

A.J.

31st July 2008, 13:44

As i often get into debates on other fora with BNP'ers and their apologists about the fascistic nature of their party, I often find problems trying to argue against the rhetoric of BNP members who have managed to convince themselves and others otherwise.

They are getting quite adept at managing to convince others they are real democrats and this is aiding their success.

For that purpose, please post your arguments here as an archive of reasons to why the BNP is fascist.

Georgi Dimitrov wrote....

"...[Fascism] is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations.
This, the true character of fascism, must be particularly stressed because in a number of countries, under cover of social demagogy, fascism has managed to gain the following of the mass of the petty bourgeoisie that has been dislocated by the crisis, and even of certain sections of the most backward strata of the proletariat. These would never have supported fascism if they had understood its real character and its true nature.
The development of fascism, and the fascist dictatorship itself, assume different forms in different countries, according to historical, social and economic conditions and to the national peculiarities, and the international position of the given country. In certain countries, principally those in which fascism has no broad mass basis and in which the struggle of the various groups within the camp of the fascist bourgeoisie itself is rather acute, fascism does not immediately venture to abolish parliament, but allows the other bourgeois parties, as well as the Social-Democratic Parties, to retain a modicum of legality. In other countries, where the ruling bourgeoisie fears an early outbreak of revolution, fascism establishes its unrestricted political monopoly, either immediately or by intensifying its reign of terror against and persecution of all rival parties and groups. This does not prevent fascism, when its position becomes particularly acute, from trying to extend its basis and, without altering its class nature, trying to combine open terrorist dictatorship with a crude sham of parliamentarism."

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm

A cursory glance at the BNP membership reveals it to be a movement consisting of petty-bourgeoisie and lumpenproletariat like your archetypical Fascist party.

Then, of course, there's all the national-chavaunism.

nuisance

31st July 2008, 14:13

So if the BNP are moving away from anti-semitism and towards Islamaphobia but are keeping the same economic policy [anti-worker etc] does that mean that they are moving away from nazism and towards fascism?
Well traditonally both are against religion per se, despite Mussolini coming to accomodate the Roman catholic church and the Nazis attempting to establish 'positive christainity'.
That said there are many offshoots of traditonal Italian fascism, for example Nazism, of which the term fascist can be loosely attached.
That said the BNP could merely be another offshoot. That said the many racialist points the BNP have I'd say puts them closer to Nazism, aswell as having ex-Blood and Honour and combat 18 recruits as members.

What are the BNPs views on the state? The nazis and the Fascists in Italy were for a strong state I know that much
They love a strong state and pride militarism, both fascist traits.

Devrim

31st July 2008, 14:20

They love a strong state and pride militarism,

So do the Labour Party. In fact they are the ones running the state, and taking part in US imperial adventures abroad.

Devrim

nuisance

31st July 2008, 14:30

So do the Labour Party. In fact they are the ones running the state, and taking part in US imperial adventures abroad.

Devrim
I am fully aware of that;)
Yet the question was asked what do the BNP think of the state, and I gave a basic answer, which is far from wrong.
Yes, the UK is an imperialist nation, but then again so are nationalist and fascist states, therefore why is it any surprise to you that the BNP prides the same things as the Labour Party? It's not a groundbreaking assertion.
But OK of course the BNP's ideas are much more extreme with the beliefs of the re-introduction of capital and corporal punishment and so on.

Holden Caulfield

31st July 2008, 14:33

So do the Labour Party. In fact they are the ones running the state, and taking part in US imperial adventures abroad.

Devrim

the New Labour party leadership you mean, the majority of the support and membership are from pre-New Labour types, and New Labour is crumbling to dust as middle class supporter flee,

Both New Labour and the BNP have moved towards (BNP were there already obviously) a 'British Jobs for British People' line to try and capitalise on the media/fear inspired nationalist craze and win votes

Pirate turtle the 11th

31st July 2008, 14:34

So do the Labour Party. In fact they are the ones running the state, and taking part in US imperial adventures abroad.

Devrim

Yes but the labour party are not trying to create a culture in which most men have guns have had done time in the armed forces. This would create a militaristic culture and the BNP know this.

Devrim

31st July 2008, 14:37

nuisance

31st July 2008, 14:43

Holden Caulfield

31st July 2008, 14:45

Philosophical Materialist

31st July 2008, 14:50

My point is that the BNP is a tiny irrelevant party, which has no chance of coming to power, and even in the extremely highly unlikely chance that it did would probabely behave like any other bourgeois party.

The labour party makes attacks against the working class, and ethnic minorities that the BNP could only fantasise about.

So why is there an obsession with the BNP?

Devrim

The BNP have grown in influence these past five years and this cannot be ignored. They are well-aided by the Tory gutter press who are driving a racist agenda which is more to the benefit of the BNP than the Tories.

The BNP is an alliance of lumpenproletariat and very reactionary members of the bourgeoisie. It would not behave like just any other bourgeois government, it would not even pay lip-service to liberal parliamentarianism.

Using a historical perspective, the Tory and National Governments of the 1920s and 1930s were deeply anti-working class much more so than current Labour-Thatcherism. But it would be folly to suggest that the British Union of Fascists would not act much different to this had they gained political power. Their agenda would have been much more extreme. The BNP is far more extreme than Labour, the Tories and even UKIP. The former are fascists and national socialists, and the latter are neoliberal imperialists.

The BNP characterise the Labour government's attack on migrants as the very opposite, being "too soft" and "giving lots of money to migrants." The anti-working class measures implemented by Labour-Thatcherism are still seen as too left-wing by the BNP.

Devrim

31st July 2008, 15:12

It has been shown that any area that BNP has been active in there has been a rise, even if nominal, in racist attacks.

racially motivated crimes have increased in areas where they have come to prominence,

I would like to see some evidence, but it is hardly surprising. There are more racist attacks in an area that votes for a more openly racist party.

One question is though whether attacking them in the streets increases or decreases racial attacks. Being beaten up on the streets could well make them feel like going out and beating up some 'darkies' in return.

The movement isn't big enough for a full on confrontation with the state yet until we can build sufficient working class support.I think that you have this the wrong way round. It is not 'the movement' that confronts the state, but the class itself. Your use of the 'movement' here seems a bit like the Leninists talk about the party.

the vote they are securing is the working class vote,

And what is your point? If you haven't noticed all major bourgeois parties that compete in elections get most of their votes from the working class. If only the bourgeoisie voted for them, they wouldn't get elected.

they are spread prejudice amongst the people, nevermind if they never get the power they want,

I think 'The Sun' does a much better job of this.

The BNP is an alliance of lumpenproletariat and very reactionary members of the bourgeoisie. It would not behave like just any other bourgeois government, it would not even pay lip-service to liberal parliamentarianism.

First the BNP has no chance at all of coming to power. Second, we had fascists in the government (coalition) in the parliament before last. Nothing really changed.

Before you ask, I am not an ethnic Turk, and neither is my wife. Even worse she is a Kurd. Also, the fascists in Turkey make the BNP and the NF look a bit like the Teddy Bear's picnic.

The BNP is an alliance of lumpenproletariat and very reactionary members of the bourgeoisie. It would not behave like just any other bourgeois government, it would not even pay lip-service to liberal parliamentarianism.

It isn't the 1930s anymore. Fascism in the 1930s came to power on the back of a working class defeated in revolution(and we do know who defeated them, don't we?). We are not in that sort of period.

The BNP characterise the Labour government's attack on migrants as the very opposite, being "too soft" and "giving lots of money to migrants." The anti-working class measures implemented by Labour-Thatcherism are still seen as too left-wing by the BNP.

So do the Tories, and much of the press. What is your point?

Devrim

nuisance

31st July 2008, 15:22

I would like to see some evidence, but it is hardly surprising. There are more racist attacks in an area that votes for a more openly racist party.

Secondly the BNP claim that there has been an increase in violent crime, however there has been an increase in racist violence in the area. Figures from the Barking and Dagenham Race Equality Council show that, in the 2 years between 2004 and 2006, racist incidents have increased by 30%. This corresponds with increased BNP activity in the area. In June 2004 the BNP recorded by far the highest vote averaging 20.5% in the Barking and Dagenham borough in the London Assembly elections, in September 2004 the BNP gained a councillor in Goresbrook with over 50% of the vote, the BNP recorded 16.89% - the highest vote - in the Barking constituency in the general election 2005 (up from 6.4% in 2001, when Barking was one of the five constituencies where the BNP saved their deposit). By contrast, the same period saw a year on year fall in the number of racist attacks recorded by the Met Police across London.

One question is though whether attacking them in the streets increases or decreases racial attacks. Being beaten up on the streets could well make them feel like going out and beating up some 'darkies' in return.
Not if you stop the racist parties from being able to propagate their propaganda. Of course soley this method is unlikely to halt all racist attacks, however it breaks up the cohesion of the group, leading to disillusionment of these ideas, opposed to the fertility they are finding now in areas that have a distinct BNP presence.

I think that you have this the wrong way round. It is not 'the movement' that confronts the state, but the class itself. Your use of the 'movement' here seems a bit like the Leninists talk about the party.
I am not using the term movement interchangeably with that of any sort of vanguard party. By movement I mean the influence of ideas being spread by the revolutionary organisation, once the ideas it speaks breaks out of the activist ghetto and into day to day life.

Devrim

31st July 2008, 15:41

Thanks for the statistics. I don't think it is a surprise though. The BNP gets elected in areas where there are already racial tensions.

Not if you stop the racist parties from being able to propagate their propaganda. Of course soley this method is unlikely to halt all racist attacks, however it breaks up the cohesion of the group, leading to disillusionment of these ideas, opposed to the fertility they are finding now in areas that have a distinct BNP presence.

More people read racist propaganda everyday in the tabloid press than from the BNP in a year.

I am not using the term movement interchangeably with that of any sort of vanguard party. By movement I mean the influence of ideas being spread by the revolutionary organisation, once the ideas it speaks breaks out of the activist ghetto and into day to day life.

It sounds very similar to me.

Devrim

nuisance

31st July 2008, 17:11

The BNP gets elected in areas where there are already racial tensions.
Or they merely shape the tensions into racial ones, thus providing a misdirected vent for the anger felt. Which explains why the violence perpretrated actually rises due to the BNP's presence and not flourishing before so.

More people read racist propaganda everyday in the tabloid press than from the BNP in a year.
That implies that we don't oppose right wing media, which evidently we do. We are fully aware that racial conflict isn't merely being whipped up by the BNP, but it would be irresponsible not to target them while they are gaining more support, which they are.

It sounds very similar to me.
That's ashame as that is not at all what I am proposing and if anything you only percieve this due to bad wording upon my part.
“We anarchists do not want to emancipate the people; we want the people to emancipate themselves"- Malatesta.

Devrim

31st July 2008, 19:22

That implies that we don't oppose right wing media, which evidently we do. We are fully aware that racial conflict isn't merely being whipped up by the BNP, but it would be irresponsible not to target them while they are gaining more support, which they are.

I think that a fetish is made amongst anarchists of 'anti-fascism'. Even if the BNP is growing in support, it is still a tiny insignificant group. Why does it receive so much attention?

Devrim

nuisance

31st July 2008, 20:29

I think that a fetish is made amongst anarchists of 'anti-fascism'. Even if the BNP is growing in support, it is still a tiny insignificant group. Why does it receive so much attention?

Devrim
I agree that there is abit of sensationalisation around the BNP. That said, there should be no easing off. Just as Hitler said that if there was confrontation from the start, the Nazis would never have had got the influence that they did. Risks like this can't be taken again, no matter how large the party is or not.

The Feral Underclass

31st July 2008, 22:07

They're fascists because they view society based on racial/national lines, they believe in organisational hierarchy, authoritarianism, political suppression and a corporate state.

Dr Mindbender

31st July 2008, 22:12

They're fascists because they view society based on racial/national lines, they believe in organisational hierarchy, authoritarianism, political suppression and a corporate state.
yeah but try telling them that.

Dr Mindbender

31st July 2008, 22:14

I think that a fetish is made amongst anarchists of 'anti-fascism'. Even if the BNP is growing in support, it is still a tiny insignificant group. Why does it receive so much attention?

Devrim

i think because although small, it represents the largest fascist threat to british politics.

The germans made the mistake of overlooking hitler's party via the same complacency, look what happened. The cancer must be rooted out before it turns malignant.

Kami

31st July 2008, 22:20

The Feral Underclass

31st July 2008, 23:14

yeah but try telling them that.

...Try telling them what? It's written in their manifesto.

Devrim

1st August 2008, 04:42

In the last london election, they got over 5% of the vote. That's hardly insignificant.

Yes, it is.

i think because although small, it represents the largest fascist threat to british politics.

They don't represent any threat at all.

The germans made the mistake of overlooking hitler's party via the same complacency, look what happened. The cancer must be rooted out before it turns malignant.

As I mentioned before it is not the 1930s any more. The conditions are completely different.

That said, there should be no easing off. Just as Hitler said that if there was confrontation from the start, the Nazis would never have had got the influence that they did. Risks like this can't be taken again, no matter how large the party is or not.

There is no risk of fascism in the UK today. Apart from that though the statement from Hitler is completely ahistorical. The Nazis were able to come to power on the back of the defeat of the worker's revolution. Before fascism was possible the working class had to be crushed.

The crux of the problem is here though:

it represents the largest fascist threat to british politics.

The anti-fascists will end up defending 'British politics'. In their fight against the terrible extreme that is fascism, they will end up siding with all sort of various bourgeois forces including the people who are the real racists in society. Basically, they politically tie workers to the state.

Devrim

spartan

1st August 2008, 05:09

As I mentioned before it is not the 1930s any more. The conditions are completely different.

Well like in the 30's we have a looming global economic crises and like the 30's we also now have these far-right parties like the BNP scapegoating non-British people (or whatever country they are from) as the causes of all our problems and are gaining even more prominence which they haven't had since before the second world war! (ironically in the 30's).

The BNP are the fastest growing political party in the UK, their website gets more hits then the three major parties combined whilst they recently unveiled "BNP TV" on their website which broadcasts their shite to all those people who visit it (which bear in mind is more then those visiting the three major parties websites) and which is the first of it's kind from a major British political party (not even the big three have bothered tapping this fertile ground that is the internet).

Where are they getting the money to do this?

Is the British bourgeois class preparing for potential worker's unrest with the global economic crises? This would certainly explain their bankrolling anti-worker parties like the BNP (if this is indeed the case) as they could be used as potential counter-revolutionary forces in the case of large scale workers unrest.

Ignoring the BNP would be a mistake (remember that Hitler quote about if the Nazis had been stopped earlier) and we have indeed paid dearly for not taking them seriously and sticking to unsuccessful tactics as just recently they got one of their candidates in the London assembly elections elected and look set to get an MEP anytime soon (if a proportional representation voting system was implemented for local and national elections, like in the London assembly, they would probably have a member of parliament by now).

They also have an annoying tactic of fielding candidates in uncontested wards in local coucil elections which ensures a BNP presence (no matter how miniscule) on lots of councils throughout the country (and allows them to point to a growth in BNP election success even though alot of their councillors are technically unelected as they stood in uncontested wards!).

UKIP has one member of parliament (a Tory defected to them) and i feel that it's only a matter of time before some Tory relic of the Enoch Powell mold comes out of the woodwork and decides to throw his hat in with the BNP and defects giving them a presence on our national legislative body!

If this happened then they would have "arrived" as a major political force which would allow right-wing toilet rags like the Daily Mail and Daily Express to switch allegiance from the Tories to this new even more openly right-wing party which doesn't care about negative public perception on it's racial issues (which would surely appeal to these muslim/immigrant bashing papers) and would give them a voice to the millions of British people who read these papers.

Devrim

1st August 2008, 06:56

Well like in the 30's we have a looming global economic crises and like the 30's we also now have these far-right parties like the BNP scapegoating non-British people (or whatever country they are from) as the causes of all our problems and are gaining even more prominence which they haven't had since before the second world war! (ironically in the 30's).

Unlike in the 1930 we haven't just emerged from a world war followed by a massive revolutionary period. The situation that you describe is not something that you 'haven't had since before the Second World War', it sounds very similar to the 1970s.

Is the British bourgeois class preparing for potential worker's unrest with the global economic crises? This would certainly explain their bankrolling anti-worker parties like the BNP (if this is indeed the case) as they could be used as potential counter-revolutionary forces in the case of large scale workers unrest.

The British bourgeois has the unions to defend itself from worker militancy, and they do a much better job than the BNP could.

Ignoring the BNP would be a mistake (remember that Hitler quote about if the Nazis had been stopped earlier)

I commented on it earlier in fact. Why don't you go back and see what I wrote.

UKIP has one member of parliament (a Tory defected to them) and i feel that it's only a matter of time before some Tory relic of the Enoch Powell mold comes out of the woodwork and decides to throw his hat in with the BNP and defects giving them a presence on our national legislative body!

If this happened then they would have "arrived" as a major political force which would allow right-wing toilet rags like the Daily Mail and Daily Express to switch allegiance from the Tories to this new even more openly right-wing party which doesn't care about negative public perception on it's racial issues (which would surely appeal to these muslim/immigrant bashing papers) and would give them a voice to the millions of British people who read these papers.

Another anti-working class, racist party in Parliament then. Well that would make a change.

Devrim

Revolutiondownunder

1st August 2008, 06:56

The reason to stop groups like the BNP is simple. The areas the far right do well in, both in Germany the UK and france should be natural areas for "far left" agitation.

No jobs bad housing and little hope, people crushed by the capitalist system and seriously pissed off about it. If the Fascists get these people WE cant.

Does anyone seriously believe that the revolution will come thanks to recruiting more and more middle class uni students? It will simply create more middle class "liberal" parites like the New Labour in the UK. In other words the worst thing for working class politics.

Are there any groups in the UK who are actually going out to the public housing areas and talking to these people who vote BNP? Instead of holding a rally in Stoke where the BNP is doing well because of the lack of Jobs, why not get people in there and take the BNPs votes away from them with radical working class politics?:confused:

Devrim

1st August 2008, 07:20

Holden Caulfield

1st August 2008, 10:48

I think the above post shows a deep contempt for the working class. It seems to view it as a passive agent, whose affection is competed for by different groups.

The communist perspective is very different.

In response to its point though, I am sure that more workers vote for both the Labour Party, and the Tory Party than the BNP. Why is there this focus on the BNP?

Devrim

i wouldn't say there is in reality, but after all this is the anti-fascism forum!

the Tories and Labour get far more attention just look at the protests against them when either have been in power

nuisance

1st August 2008, 12:05

There is no risk of fascism in the UK today. Apart from that though the statement from Hitler is completely ahistorical. The Nazis were able to come to power on the back of the defeat of the worker's revolution. Before fascism was possible the working class had to be crushed.
Whether or not fascism is a risk in contempoary Britian or not, the fact remains that these groups are infilterating many of our communities, and as shown by the statistics, when this happens racist attacks increase. You may well be apathetic to this in Britian, but fact is we don't want fascists to gain any sort of support as they do in Turkey, now or ever. These tactics suit what we aim for, which is kicking their their shit out of our communities.

Devrim

1st August 2008, 12:10

i wouldn't say there is in reality, but after all this is the anti-fascism forum!

the Tories and Labour get far more attention just look at the protests against them when either have been in power

Yep, of course, and Revleft has an anti-social democrat, and an anti-conservative forum where people discuss attacking them in exactly the same way.

Devrim

Devrim

1st August 2008, 12:22

Whether or not fascism is a risk in contempoary Britian or not, the fact remains that these groups are infilterating many of our communities, and as shown by the statistics, when this happens racist attacks increase. You may well be apathetic to this in Britian, but fact is we don't want fascists to gain any sort of support as they do in Turkey, now or ever. These tactics suit what we aim for, which is kicking their their shit out of our communities.

What you are heading towards is exactly the same thing as the left went through in Turkey. The left, and the right fighting it out on the streets whilst the working class looks on disinterestedly, but more likely looks the other way. Fortunately for you it is nowhere near the level it got to here (at the high point an average of 30 political murders a day in İstanbul alone).

You haven't establish a statistical link (it is probably impossible to do so). It is just as probable BNP membership increases as a result of racial attacks increasing as vice versa. Please stop using it like there is some sort of scientific proof.

The talk of 'our communities' is typical anarchist nonsense.

Everybody knows that much more dangerous anti-working class/ethnic minority/immigrant polices are enacted by the Labour Party. Yet there is still this fetish about anti-fascism.

Devrim

Dr Mindbender

1st August 2008, 12:31

nuisance

1st August 2008, 12:35

What you are heading towards is exactly the same thing as the left went through in Turkey. The left, and the right fighting it out on the streets whilst the working class looks on disinterestedly, but more likely looks the other way. Fortunately for you it is nowhere near the level it got to here (at the high point an average of 30 political murders a day in İstanbul alone).
Yes, you are right that activists need to try and highlight the threat that BNP causes to people in the said area. I have not compared the situation here to Turkey and alot of us believe that marginalising groups that preach such hate shall prevent the problem escalating to that of the likes of Turkey. No matter how much you go on against the action being proposed, it won't stop us wanting to combat such dispicable slurs such groups speak and act on.

The talk of 'our communities' is typical anarchist nonsense.
OK, if you say so. That said, it is completely relevant.

Everybody knows that much more dangerous anti-working class/ethnic minority/immigrant polices are enacted by the Labour Party. Yet there is still this fetish about anti-fascism.
I have to grudgingly agree to that. However that isn't a representable opinion of the entire groups that advocate such stratergies.

Devrim

1st August 2008, 12:51

Yes, you are right that activists need to try and highlight the threat that BNP causes to people in the said area. I have not compared the situation here to Turkey and alot of us believe that marginalising groups that preach such hate shall prevent the problem escalating to that of the likes of Turkey. No matter how much you go on against the action being proposed, it won't stop us wanting to combat such dispicable slurs such groups speak and act on.

I think that your politics leads to that sort of situation. Youth gangs fighting each other. It may as well be the Crips and the Bloods.

I have to grudgingly agree to that. However that isn't a representable opinion of the entire groups that advocate such stratergies.[/quote]

No, most of them are just another faction of bourgeois politics. Maybe they come from an organisation like ,er the Labour Party. You end up taking the side of one bourgeois political faction against another. In this case the one that is running the state.

...And you are the anarchists?

Devrim

nuisance

1st August 2008, 13:08

No, most of them are just another faction of bourgeois politics. Maybe they come from an organisation like ,er the Labour Party. You end up taking the side of one bourgeois political faction against another. In this case the one that is running the state.

...And you are the anarchists?

Devrim
Who here has ever spoke of supporting or working with any form of political parties? We are speaking of the BNP and the like as this is the anti-fascism forum and a BNP thread, if you want to make a thread on opposing non-fascist political parties then do so, as this is isn't the place to discuss such misgivings.
Also who are these groups that are a "another faction of bourgeois politics" that you think we condone?

disobey

1st August 2008, 13:32

No, most of them are just another faction of bourgeois politics. Maybe they come from an organisation like ,er the Labour Party. You end up taking the side of one bourgeois political faction against another. In this case the one that is running the state.The BNP are far more than "just another faction". Besides, I am a member of the Socialist Party - does that imply that I support a "bourgeois faction"? Am I to always expect that all political parties, even worker-led ones, are weapons of the bourgeoise? If I did, I may aswell stay out of politics, keep my head in the sand and keep shopping.

I agree to some extent and will level that accusation at New Labour, as anyone will agree that they are now a corporatist party and so fiercely right-wing on occasion as to make the Tories look like they know what's good for the working class. However I know that Labour has not always been like this, even though I can no longer distinguish between so-called left and right in the major parties any more.

Political parties are like trains. You get on them and you might only go so far and get off before the end of the line, but at least you'll be part of the way to your destination. The great thing about anarchism I suppose, is that there is no destination, and you make up the route as you go along. The sky is the limit.

Of course the working class should not put all their faith in a party, nor a nation-state, both of which are arbitrary constructs -- but in themselves! It is class identification and this commonality that binds us, and this is our weapon against the fascists.

Devrim

1st August 2008, 13:38

We are speaking of the BNP and the like as this is the anti-fascism forum and a BNP thread, if you want to make a thread on opposing non-fascist political parties then do so, as this is isn't the place to discuss such misgivings.

What I am arguing is that anti-fascism itself has nothing to offer the working class. I don't think that the point about starting a thread about 'opposing non-fascist political parties' is the point at all. I was merely using the fact that you don't to show that there was a complete fetishism about insignificant parties, which attack the working class and immigrants far less than the major bourgeois parties.

Who here has ever spoke of supporting or working with any form of political parties?
Also who are these groups that are a "another faction of bourgeois politics" that you think we condone?

Look at how many anarchists have ended up arguing things like vote Labour to keep out the fascists. It is what happens with it in the end.

Also off the point a bit I just looked at Antifa's website. What do you think of this: http://www.antifa.org.uk/nucleus3.32/nucleus332/index.php?itemid=63

Devrim

Devrim

1st August 2008, 13:47

The great thing about anarchism I suppose, is that there is no destination, and you make up the route as you go along. The sky is the limit.

I am not an anarchist.

Besides, I am a member of the Socialist Party - does that imply that I support a "bourgeois faction"? Am I to always expect that all political parties, even worker-led ones, are weapons of the bourgeoise? If I did, I may aswell stay out of politics, keep my head in the sand and keep shopping.

I don't think that all parties are weapons of the bourgeoisie. However, I think that the Socialist Party is a bourgeois party. Back in the 1980s in was running parts of local government. How much more integrated into the state can you get. Although they are not doing this now, it is what they aspire too.

Devrim

nuisance

1st August 2008, 13:59

What I am arguing is that anti-fascism itself has nothing to offer the working class. I don't think that the point about starting a thread about 'opposing non-fascist political parties' is the point at all. I was merely using the fact that you don't to show that there was a complete fetishism about insignificant parties, which attack the working class and immigrants far less than the major bourgeois parties.
I do think that anti-fascism can be used to bring communities closer together. So, yes, I actually think it has alot to offer the working class.

Also off the point a bit I just looked at Antifa's website. What do you think of this: http://www.antifa.org.uk/nucleus3.32/nucleus332/index.php?itemid=63

Devrim
I'm pretty surpised that Antifa have that on their site and am rather disappointed by their appartent approval of any state, espicially one that forcibly enforces Islamic rule like Al-Qaeda.

Devrim

1st August 2008, 14:09

I do think that anti-fascism can be used to bring communities closer together. So, yes, I actually think it has alot to offer the working class.

Yes, we disagree completely over the whole idea of community.

I'm pretty surpised that Antifa have that on their site and am rather disappointed by their appartent approval of any religious group, espicially one that forcibly enforces Islamic rule like Al-Qaeda.

I don't think it is about al-Queda. It read to me, and I only skimmed it like it seemed like it could of been the camp of any nationalist group in the Lebanon at that time.

Devrim

nuisance

1st August 2008, 14:18

I don't think it is about al-Queda. It read to me, and I only skimmed it like it seemed like it could of been the camp of any nationalist group in the Lebanon at that time.
Devrim
Yeah, that's true but the members of the struggle spoke of went on to be head figures/supporters of al-Queda, this may not be so for all though. Either way, to my knowledge Antifa is meant to be secular, and the group in th article, from what I understand is Sunni Islamist.
What do you think of the article?

Devrim

1st August 2008, 14:38

The location is South Lebanon. I would imagine that the group is a faction of the PLO, which was 'secular'. I think that during the civil war in Lebanon the working class butchered each other on behalf of different political factions and regional, and international factions. I don't think that there was a progressive side.

The article though is a sort of 'anti-fascist porn'. It talks about guns, killing fascists etc. All the things that these sort of people fantasise about. The end result of these sort of things though was events like those at Damour.

Devrim

disobey

1st August 2008, 14:50

I don't think that all parties are weapons of the bourgeoisie. However, I think that the Socialist Party is a bourgeois party. Back in the 1980s in was running parts of local government. How much more integrated into the state can you get. Although they are not doing this now, it is what they aspire too.Agreed, whilst they are not able to engage in such activities at the moment, I've no doubts there are those in the party who would return to those days. If that were to happen again, I would seriously reconsider my position.

That's when I get off the train to catch another. Assuming the railways have been re-nationalised that is.:)

Holden Caulfield

1st August 2008, 16:19

if i can throw in my opinion, i think the article is a bit pointless as well...:(

Socialismo_Libertario

2nd August 2008, 04:23

The BNP is a racist, homophobic neo-nazi party with several members being ex-members of the neo-nazi combat18 and national front. It's supporters include Adolf Hitler worshipers, people who deny the Holocaust happened and those who believe that a small group of Jewish people secretly control the world.

The British National Party leader, Nick Griffin, is a hardline fascist. Convicted for inciting race hate, he denies that the Holocaust ever took place and believes that Jews are conspiring against white British people.
In 1980, Griffin launched Nationalism Today with the help of Joe Pearce, a convicted racist and editor of Bulldog. Nationalism Today became the springboard for the Third Positionist ideas that the NF later adopted. Through Nationalism Today Griffin and Pearce developed their idea that a “third way” was needed to replace the evils of both capitalism and communism. They felt both were Zionist controlled.
The Third Positionist wing of the NF saw the traditional style of fascist organising as pro-capitalist. Griffin wanted to create a political elite. Based on the blood and soil philosophy of Julius Evola, an Italian National Socialist, Griffin and the NF began to develop their Third Positionist ideas.
But it was also terrorists who were to prove a strong influence on Griffin’s politics. Italian fascist, Roberto Fiore, had arrived in Britain with several others including people implicated in the bombing at Bologna railway station in 1980 in which 85 people.
Griffin and Fiore became close, with the Italian working for Griffin’s tour company, Heritage Tours. Griffin’s father remains Fiore’s personal and business accountant.
Griffin’s BNP may hate Islamic fundamentalists now. But this has not always been the case. After his faction took control of the NF, they began to make some strange alliances. They met with representatives of Colonel Gaddafi’s regime through the Libyan People’s Bureau in London, and expressed support for Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini.
Rank and File members of the NF were not too pleased when Griffin, in 1985, praised the black separatist Louis Farrakhan: “White nationalists everywhere wish (Farrakhan) well, for we share a common struggle for the same ends: Racial Separation and Racial Freedom”.

During this period, Griffin and other NF leaders took an all-expenses paid trip to Libya, as guests of the Gaddafi regime to obtain funding.
National Front News wrote at the time: “Common interest must be turned into practical cooperation. Those involved must work to nail the media lies which are used by our enemies to try and divide us and make us afraid to be seen standing side by side with Third Way nations such as Libya and Iran”. Ironic that Griffin once allied himself so closely with Muslim countries that he now condemns as terrorist states. But political gymnastics have been constant throughout Griffin’s life. His bizarre ideologies have changed like the wind.
In 1989, he left the NF and formed the International Third Position, a fanatically Catholic fascist group. The ITP campaigned against Coca Cola, McDonalds, urbanisation and “Zionism” His involvement did not last beyond a few years. In 1991, after a failed business venture, Griffin went his own way.
In 1995, Griffin joined the BNP. He began to edit The Rune, an anti-Semitic quarterly. He also announced that the BNP should prioritise denying the Holocaust to schoolchildren.
He earned a two-year suspended prison sentence for his sick views on the Holocaust. In 1998 he was found guilty of inciting race hatred at Harrow Crown Court for denying that the Holocaust ever took place.
But now Griffin tries to pretend the BNP is respectable. The ITP have also been baffled by Griffin’s incoherence. It recently declared: “He has been a conservative, a revolutionary nationalist, a radical National Socialist, a Third Positionist, a friend of the ‘boot boys’ and the skinhead scene, a man committed to respectable politics and electioneering, a ‘moderniser’. Which is he in reality? Perhaps he has been all these quite sincerely – in which case his judgement is abysmal; or perhaps he has been none of them sincerely – which speaks for itself!”
Griffin immediately had his sights upon leading the BNP. He became editor of Spearhead, the then BNP magazine, from 1996 until his split from former leader John Tyndall in 1999.
He yearned for a BNP that was reputable and modern. The label of Nazism tarnished the group’s image, and Griffin wanted to copy the more intellectual far right parties on the continent. But though he spoke of the need for a community-based politics, his words in The Rune showed his real colours. “The electors of Millwall did not back a post-modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan “Defend Rights for Whites’ with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate”.

Who says today’s politicians lack convictions. The British National Party is brimming with them – all of a criminal nature. “The BNP will crack down on crime and restore public safety and confidence,” its website states. But despite claiming to be a party of law and order, the BNP is home to criminals, racist thugs and football hooligans. The ranks of the criminals extend to the very highest level of the party. They include:

Nick Griffin (Party Chairman) Received a two-year suspended sentence in April 1998 for inciting racial hatred. His magazine The Rune carried obscene anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial material as well as crude racism.
Tony Lecomber (Group Development Officer). In 1985 he was convicted on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of homemade hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. Sentenced to three-years imprisonment.
In 1991 he was sentenced to another three years imprisonment for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station. He has a total of 12 convictions.
Colin Smith (South East London organiser). Has amassed a total of 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.
John Tyndall (founder of the BNP). Six convictions. In 1962 he was jailed for organising a paramilitary organisation. Four years later, he was again sent to prison for possession of a loaded gun. In 1986, he was convicted for incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment.
Warren Bennett (Chief Steward). Supposed to keep order in the party yet has convictions for football hooliganism. In 1998, he was deported from France with over 50 other Scottish hooligans, including several BNP members.
Steve Belshaw (East Midlands BNP organiser. Was convicted in 1994 for assaulting a lawyer in his home-town of Mansfield. At the time, Belshaw combined his BNP membership with Combat 18 activity.

Kevin Scott (North East Regional Organiser). Was convicted in 1993 for hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.
Alan Gould (Waltham Forest Organiser). Was convicted in 2000 for racially abusing people in a local pub. He told the court that it was the drink getting the better of him.
Robert Bennett. A leading activist in Oldham BNP during the 2002 elections campaign, Bennett has served five years in prison for the gang rape of a woman. He has also served seven years for armed robbery and has over 30 convictions in total.
Mick Treacy. The Oldham organiser has five convictions for violence, theft, and handling stolen goods
Darren Dobson. Found guilty of racially aggravated assault at Oldham magistrates in November 2001. Fined £300. Connected to football hooligans in the Oldham area, and has links to the nazi terror group Combat 18
Darren Hoy. April 2002, the BNP supporter was sent to prison for 3 months for racially abusing people as they left an anti-fascist rally in Oldham.
In spite of this imposing list, when pressed by the BBC Panorama team in September 2001 on the convictions of its leading members, party leader Nick Griffin just lied. He claimed Tony Lecomber, his deputy merely had a conviction for handling fireworks. He also claimed that party chief steward Warren Bennett had a minor conviction “some 15 years ago” but had not been in trouble since. The truth is that Bennett has been named in the Scottish press for violence as recently as 2002. Griffin also tried to claim that Colin Smith had no convictions.

Hatred of Jews has always been the backbone of nazi ideas. The BNP is no different. But antisemitism is not a vote winner. It reminds people of Hitler and the Holocaust. The BNP wishes to distance itself from the images of swastikas and concentration camps. Despite this, they still believesthat there is a Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world.

In Nick Griffin’s pamphlet Who are the Mindbenders Jewish names are listed as proof that they control the media.
Mindbenders claims that, “The mass media in Britain today have managed to implant into many people’s minds the idea that it is ‘anti-Semitic’ even to acknowledge that members of the Jewish community play a large part in controlling our news”.
Jews are accused of “providing us with an endless diet of pro-multiracial, pro-homosexual, anti-British trash”. Who are the Mindbenders? has a sinister history: It follows the lead of The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, the notorious 19th century tsarist forgery that purports to be the minutes of a meeting of Jews documenting their plans to control the whole world.Mindbenders is based on Who Rules America?, written by Dr William Pierce, who before his death last year was one of the world’s foremost neo-nazis and a self confessed ally of Nick Griffin.
Pierce authored the notorious Turner Diaries, which inspired the Oklahoma bombing, and was the leader of the National Alliance, a group described by the US Anti-Defamation League as one of the most dangerous neo-nazi groups in the world. Griffin’s booklet is a carbon copy of Pierce’s. In Spearhead in 1996, Griffin spoke of “the controllers of Hollywood, almost entirely Jewish”, and has written that: “Some ‘anti-Semitism’ may be provoked by the actions of certain Jews themselves and thereby have a rational basis”. Now he is trying to distance himself from the label of antisemitism, and has toned down his views in public. Where he once spoke of “Jewish influence”, he now speaks of “Zionist influence”, showing that it is his language not his beliefs that have changed.

Holocaust Denial

Griffin has never withdrawn his views on the Holocaust that landed him with a suspended prison sentence in 1998. His publication The Rune, which denied that the Holocaust ever took place, resulted in a conviction for inciting racial hatred under the Public Order Act. So extreme were Griffin’s beliefs that he attacked David Irving, the leading British Holocaust denier, for daring to admit that some people might have died in the Holocaust, Griffin wrote: “True revisionists will not be fooled by this new twist to the sorry tale of the Hoax of the Twentieth Century”.
Defaming the memory of British forces who fought the Nazis, he added, “Back in the 1960s the Jews quietly shifted the alleged sites of the mass gassings from the no longer believable German camps such as Dachau and Belsen to the sites in Communist Poland such as Auschwitz and Treblinka. Now that the very idea of Zyklon-B extermination has been exposed as unscientific nonsense, they are once and again re-writing bogus history, playing down gas chambers and talking instead of ‘hundreds of hitherto unknown sites in the East where more than a million Jews were exterminated by shooting”.

Griffin sees the Holocaust as a lie invented by Jews to make money: “As your Hollywood friend is fond of remarking, (provided he is safely in select company) ‘there’s no business like Shoah business”.
When the former MP Alex Carlisle reported Griffin for inciting racial hatred and Holocaust denial, Griffin fumed: “This bloody Jew, our local MP who organised the raid whose only claim to fame is that two of his parents died in the Holocaust”
Star witness as Harrow Crown Court on Griffin’s behalf was Robert Faurisson, the famous French Holocaust denier.
In the 1990s the BNP hosted a number of revisionism seminars that were addressed by some of the world’s most infamous Holocaust deniers. They included David Irving.
Muslims are now the main victims of BNP racism. Since September 11th was revealed to be the work of Islamic terrorists, Muslims in this country have taken the brunt of abuse by those wanting to exploit tragedy.
All ethnic groups exist as a target for the BNP, but their choice of victim is cynical: “We reject both pro-Zionist internationalism… and the Islamification of our homelands. Which enemy is it in our political interest to be seen to be opposing more vigorously at the moment? To a party aiming to win seats in London, the West Midlands and the former mill-towns of Northern England, the answer should be pretty obvious”.
It is clear then, that the BNP see racism against Muslims as a vote winner. Muslims are an easy target for fascists. This is why the BNP cowardly singles them out for abuse. Under British law, Muslims do not exist as an ethnic group, and so technically cannot be the victims of discrimination. In other words, the BNP can goad Muslims and get away with it. This is why the BNP was campaigning against Muslims long before the New York attacks.

The BNP claim that it is not Asians but only Muslims they have a problem with. This is not true. ‘Muslim’ is often used as a codeword for ‘Asian’ precisely because of gaps in the law.
Nick Griffin pretended that he was not blaming ordinary Muslims, but expressed horror when Tony Blair pushed the same message. “Blair and Bush lie about Islam”, Griffin declared, claiming that is was an attempt by Blair to “Curry favour with Britain’s three million angry Muslims”.
Ordinary Asians in Bradford and Oldham are placed in the same category as those terrorists who flew planes into the World Trade Centre. “The question of whether or not our land will remain ours will be decided not in the mountains of Afghanistan, but in towns like Oldham and Burnley. Anyone who finds that hard to believe needs only to read the Koran to understand why”.
By getting support from Muslim haters in other ethnic groups, the BNP are fostering more division and race hate. These Sikh and Hindu BNP supporters represent only a handful of fanatics. They speak for noone but themselves.
As far back as 1996, the BNP were attacking Muslims as being separate from other ethnic groups. Then members were active in campaigns against the opening of mosques in east and south London. They wrote at the time, “The BNP has no objection to Muslims having their own places of worship – providing they are in Muslim countries and not in Britain”.
The BNP has recently claimed that Al-Qia’da is the true form of Islam and that moderate Muslims who want to live peacefully with other religions are non-believers. This is clear incitement and distortion.
Most of all, Griffin’s anti-Muslim stance is hypocrisy. In the mid-1980s when he was a leading officer in the National Front he openly cavorted with Islamic extremists. He supported the Ayatollah Khomeini’s fundamentalist regime in Iran, and sought backing from Libya’s Colonel Gaddafi
Racism is at the very heart of the British National Party. It is racism that separates it from any other political party. And it is racism that attracts many of its members.
Of course the BNP denies this. It knows how hateful its views appear, and has tried to make its language less crude. But the song remains the same. BNP publications are still filled with racist articles, lies about immigration and asylum, and distorted figures in an attempt to portray black people as criminals and dole scroungers.
Today, the BNP has dropped its policy of compulsory repatriation and replaced it with a voluntary scheme. Make no mistake about it, this move is designed to win over supporters. The party recognise that the vast majority of people found its previous policy abhorrent. But the small print of BNP policy makes clear its true aims. The BNP claims that a BNP led government would consider forcible repatriation if not enough “non-whites” took up its offer.
If the BNP does not publicly support compulsory repatriation, it makes no attempt to hide its backing for an apartheid state in Britain. Current party literature proposes to “protect and preserve the racial and cultural integrity of the British people – and of others too, the party believes in separation”.

According to the BNP 2001 general election manifesto, “native Britons”, who they claim can only be white, would be given priority in the job market. “Non-whites” would instantly become second class citizens in Britain.
Any black person who commits a crime would also be thrown out of the country, even those who were born here.
Mixed race relationships would be outlawed. Privately, the BNP leaders have continued to air their real political views. “All black people will be repatriated, even if they were born here”, BNP leader Nick Griffin told Wales on Sunday in 1996. “We must preserve the white race, because it has been responsible for all the good things in civilisation”.
According to party number two, Tony Lecomber, the preservation of the white race can be done through a racial eugenic programme.
The BNP supported ethnic cleansing in the Kosovan crisis. “The Serbs’ real crime isn’t the harshness with which they have expelled so many of the Albanian Muslims who having become the majority in the Kosovan heart of Serbia by a mixture of immigration, a high birth rate, and low level ethnic cleansing of the native Serbs… No! The real crime in the eyes of the powerful advocates of a multi-racial New World Order is for any people to demand the right to preserve their own identity and freedom”. The BNP says they have no truck with “race hate”. Another outrageous lie. The jokes, caricatures, cartoons and articles depict black people as stupid, criminally minded and ugly. Time and again, BNP publications talk about the genetic superiority of the white race.
Several BNP members have put this racism into practice:

Former National Organiser Richard Edmonds was convicted for his part in a vicious bottle attack on a mixed race couple in a pub in East London 1993
BNP supporter Stuart Kerr was sentenced to 12 years imprisonment for firebombing an Asian shop in Chichester, Sussex
BNP leader Nick Griffin was convicted of incitement to racial hatred in April 1998
The BNP organiser for Waltham Forest, Alan Gould, was convicted of racially abusing people in a pub in 2000
Former BNP member David Copeland was sentenced to six life sentences after planting bombs in London. He wanted to start a race war. On other occasions, the BNP has glorified racist attacks. In 1991, the BNP newspaper gloated after several BNP supporters stabbed an African immigrant at London Bridge station. The victim had his “kidney surgically removed”, the paper boasted. In the same year, the BNP leadership whipped up a racist riot in Bermondsey, London, and led an attack on an anti-racist meeting that was protesting against the BNP headquaters in Welling. Thirteen people needed hospital treatment.
A BNP presence has almost always culminated in “race hate”. When Derek Beackon was elected as a BNP councillor in Millwall, racist attacks in the area soared by 300%

Socialismo_Libertario

2nd August 2008, 04:57

like someone mentioned earlier I believe that the reason for the increasing support enjoyed by groups such as the BNP is that the working classes have been abandoned by the traditional left. The Labour party has become worse than the conservatives, favouring neo-con and ultracapitalist policies while the British Socialist party is led by passive intellectuals doing nothing to help the workers. The communist party is simply non-existent!

As a result of problems accumulating, feelings of anger and frustration take over. This kind of frustration has no direction. What the BNP is doing is to trick the masses by providing them with a "direction", a scapegoat. In this case it's immigration, assylum seekers, refugees, muslims etc. that, according to them, are "flooding the country" and "steal jobs".

Devrim

2nd August 2008, 06:51

So a long cut and paste about the history of the BNP. Yes they are nasty right wing racists, but what is your point?

Devrim

Socialismo_Libertario

2nd August 2008, 17:47

My point ? What is the purpose of this thread ? As the quote below shows it was meant to act as an archive for reaons as to why the BNP is fascist. That "long cut and paste" provides the reasons and the evidence. What's your point ?

As i often get into debates on other fora with BNP'ers and their apologists about the fascistic nature of their party, I often find problems trying to argue against the rhetoric of BNP members who have managed to convince themselves and others otherwise.

They are getting quite adept at managing to convince others they are real democrats and this is aiding their success.

For that purpose, please post your arguments here as an archive of reasons to why the BNP is fascist.

Devrim

2nd August 2008, 17:49

My point is that fascism doesn't really exist today, and it is not a threat. I think the BNP is just a tiny nationalist populist party.

Devrim

Socialismo_Libertario

2nd August 2008, 17:56

"Fascism" by definiton does not really exist today or in any other time and place apart from Mussolini's Italy. Any historian will tell you that the word "fascism" is unique and specific in describing Musolini's regime and only that! However, other forms of far right wing ideology exist.

The BNP are not just right wing racists, they are neo-nazis wearing a "democratic" mask in order to gain power! They are not just nationalist, they are white nationalists with dangerous ideas about racial purity and the superiority of the aryan race. Most of their senior memebrs were convicted for violence, inciting racial hatred, firebombing, collecting arms with the aim to start a race war!!! hell one of them was even a nailbomber killing several innocent people. Not to mention the several racist attacks on minorities and refugees

How about the fact that several of their members were ex-members of combat18 and the national front ? Their youth is called....."blood and honour" and carry swasticas with them!! so they are NOT a "tiny populist nationalist party!!"

Socialismo_Libertario

2nd August 2008, 18:06

Actually no one thought the NSDAP to be a threat back in the 1920s yet....

disobey

2nd August 2008, 18:29

Socialismo_Libertario

2nd August 2008, 18:33

I know, I was just responding to a previous comment about fascism not existing today with a statement that indeed it doesn't exist but for different reasons (etymological/historical)

Devrim

2nd August 2008, 18:55

The point is that the real threat to the working class, and ethnic minorities comes from the main bourgeois parties. The Labour Party attacks the working class more than the BNP could ever imagine doing.

However, most of the left have an obsession with fighting fascists. Even when the real attacks are coming from those who they are lining up with to fight against 'the fascists'.

Actually no one thought the NSDAP to be a threat back in the 1920s yet....

...But it is not the 1930s. The situation is not at all the same.

The BNP are not just right wing racists, they are neo-nazis wearing a "democratic" mask in order to gain power! They are not just nationalist, they are white nationalists with dangerous ideas about racial purity and the superiority of the aryan race. Most of their senior memebrs were convicted for violence, inciting racial hatred, firebombing, collecting arms with the aim to start a race war!!! hell one of them was even a nailbomber killing several innocent people. Not to mention the several racist attacks on minorities and refugees

Actually, the guy who was the nail-bomber wasn't a member (though he previously had been). He was somebody who was extremly disturbed and could well have ended up doing that or something similar to it without any connection to right wing politics.

Apart from that the BNPs actions are very low scale thuggery.

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

2nd August 2008, 19:32

remember the shop that was attacked with a a fire bomb which used a BNP leaflet as a fuse...

they might not support it but they caused it...

Socialismo_Libertario

2nd August 2008, 20:45

...But it is not the 1930s. The situation is not at all the same.

You are saying that now, in 2008! How revisionist!! :rolleyes:

Actually, the guy who was the nail-bomber wasn't a member (though he previously had been). He was somebody who was extremly disturbed and could well have ended up doing that or something similar to it without any connection to right wing politics.

Are you trying to deny and/or defend neo-nazi terrorism ?

Apart from that the BNPs actions are very low scale thuggery.

hmm...Sorry ? Did you actually read my post on BNP actions and ideas ? Especially ideas.

How about the connection of BNP with Blood and Honour, an the openly nazi skinhead organisation in Britain. Many of its leaders are BNP members and Blood and Honour nazi bands have raised money for the BNP.

Nick Griffin (Party Chairman) Received a two-year suspended sentence in April 1998 for inciting racial hatred. His magazine The Rune carried obscene anti-Semitic and Holocaust denial material as well as crude racism.

Tony Lecomber (Group Development Officer). In 1985 he was convicted on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of homemade hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. Sentenced to three-years imprisonment.
In 1991 he was sentenced to another three years imprisonment for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station. He has a total of 12 convictions.

Colin Smith (South East London organiser). Has amassed a total of 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.

John Tyndall (founder of the BNP). Six convictions. In 1962 he was jailed for organising a paramilitary organisation. Four years later, he was again sent to prison for possession of a loaded gun. In 1986, he was convicted for incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act and sentenced to 12 months imprisonment.
Warren Bennett (Chief Steward). Supposed to keep order in the party yet has convictions for football hooliganism. In 1998, he was deported from France with over 50 other Scottish hooligans, including several BNP members.

Steve Belshaw (East Midlands BNP organiser. Was convicted in 1994 for assaulting a lawyer in his home-town of Mansfield. At the time, Belshaw combined his BNP membership with Combat 18 activity.

Kevin Scott (North East Regional Organiser). Was convicted in 1993 for hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.

Alan Gould (Waltham Forest Organiser). Was convicted in 2000 for racially abusing people in a local pub. He told the court that it was the drink getting the better of him.

Robert Bennett. A leading activist in Oldham BNP during the 2002 elections campaign, Bennett has served five years in prison for the gang rape of a woman. He has also served seven years for armed robbery and has over 30 convictions in total.

Mick Treacy. The Oldham organiser has five convictions for violence, theft, and handling stolen goods
Darren Dobson. Found guilty of racially aggravated assault at Oldham magistrates in November 2001. Fined £300. Connected to football hooligans in the Oldham area, and has links to the nazi terror group Combat 18

Darren Hoy. April 2002, the BNP supporter was sent to prison for 3 months for racially abusing people as they left an anti-fascist rally in Oldham.

In spite of this imposing list, when pressed by the BBC Panorama team in September 2001 on the convictions of its leading members, party leader Nick Griffin just lied. He claimed Tony Lecomber, his deputy merely had a conviction for handling fireworks. He also claimed that party chief steward Warren Bennett had a minor conviction “some 15 years ago” but had not been in trouble since. The truth is that Bennett has been named in the Scottish press for violence as recently as 2002. Griffin also tried to claim that Colin Smith had no convictions.

The Labour might be acting against the interests of the working class but it's far from being "dangerous".

http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/uncovered/images/JohnTyndall02.gif
This shows John Tyndall (Left) - the founder of BNP

It's a shame even trying to defend such monsters

Nick Griffin is copying hitler's methods in modernising the party and approaching the masses.Griffin has undergone a political transformation and now claims to be at the vanguard of attempts to make the BNP respectable. Griffin has spoken of the need for "community-based politics" to build respectability for the BNP in the eyes of voters. This appears dangerous!!!

Yet it was only four years ago that Griffin wrote in The Rune: "The electors of Millwall did not back a Post-Modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate."

Socialismo_Libertario

2nd August 2008, 20:59

Do you deny that it is possible for the BNP to gain power ? The new labour is guilty for creating the conditions for racism and intolerance to thrive, however at the end of the day it's the BNP that is the real danger

Devrim

2nd August 2008, 22:28

Are you trying to deny and/or defend neo-nazi terrorism ?
...
It's a shame even trying to defend such monstersNo, not at all. I think it is particularly dishonest of you to even suggest that I am. I am just saying that the danger of it is being completely exaggerated.

Do you deny that it is possible for the BNP to gain power ? I wouldn't say that it is impossible, but I would say that it is extremely unlikely, and that if they did they would behave in a similar manner to the other bourgeois parties.

hmm...Sorry ? Did you actually read my post on BNP actions and ideas ?Yes, and as I said it sounded like pretty low scale thuggery to me.

How about the connection of BNP with Blood and Honour, an the openly nazi skinhead organisation in Britain. Many of its leaders are BNP members and Blood and Honour nazi bands have raised money for the BNP.A tiny right wing youth cult with virtually no significance whatsoever.

You are saying that now, in 2008! How revisionist!! I don't even know what revisionist is supposed to mean here. It is certainly not the same situation as the 1920s, 1930s, and the conditions that allowed fascism to sieze state power don't exist today.

The Labour might be acting against the interests of the working class but it's far from being "dangerous".
...
The new labour is guilty for creating the conditions for racism and intolerance to thrive, however at the end of the day it's the BNP that is the real dangerAnd there was I thinking that it was the Labour party and the state who were attacking workers living conditions, and victimising ethnic minorities, and it was the BNP all along.

Who introduced the 'Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002'. The labour Party, or the BNP?

Devrim

Vanguard1917

3rd August 2008, 03:21

It's a shame even trying to defend such monsters

That's not what he's doing at all.

I share Devrim's disagreement with the description of the BNP as 'fascist'. Yes, the BNP are scum - a very dodgy grouping of rightwing populists, Little Englander xenophobes, hooligans, and environmentalists* - but the label 'fascism', for Maxists, refers to a very definite historical phenomenon with very clear characteristics. We differ from liberals and others on the 'left' who use the word as an insult to diss whoever they don't like.

* The BNP is increasingly using the language of environmentalism to justify its core policies and ideas, e.g. anti-immigration and countryside worship. They also insist that they're the 'real' green party in the UK.

Holden Caulfield

3rd August 2008, 11:02

I don't even know what revisionist is supposed to mean here. It is certainly not the same situation as the 1920s, 1930s, and the conditions that allowed fascism to sieze state power don't exist today.

not exactly the same i grant you that, but economic pressures, rising prices and immigrants to blame for the problems, right wing media holding sway over many of the workers, the NF had massive support but couldnt get the votes so out springs the BNP to work as a parlimentary group, faltering faith in the leadership, wars dragging on,

it is hardly terrible conditions for the rise of fascism

Devrim

3rd August 2008, 11:09

it is hardly terrible conditions for the rise of fascism

No, it isn't fascism rose on the back of a working class crushed in a defeated revolution.

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

3rd August 2008, 12:16

No, it isn't fascism rose on the back of a working class crushed in a defeated revolution.

i think since the 70's the British working class have been under one long attack be it from the rise of the NF, Thatcherism or New Labour they have been opressed/neglected,

Devrim

3rd August 2008, 12:45

i think since the 70's the British working class have been under one long attack be it from the rise of the NF, Thatcherism or New Labour they have been opressed/neglected,

I think that you need a bit of historical perspective. Yes, the working class has been under attack, and there have been some major defeats. Actually, I think now we are seeing the beginnings of a resurgence. However, the defeats have no comparison to the defeat of the revolutionary wave after WWI.

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

3rd August 2008, 13:14

I think that you need a bit of historical perspective. Yes, the working class has been under attack, and there have been some major defeats. Actually, I think now we are seeing the beginnings of a resurgence. However, the defeats have no comparison to the defeat of the revolutionary wave after WWI.

i am aware and i am not predicting the same thing or to such terrible levels but merely that conditions are present for the rise of fascism,

as for a resurgence, we shall see how the unions and the labour party act when the Tories win the next general election, hopefully this will stem the rise of fascism to a degree,

however disregarding the BNP etc, street level fascism and intimidation should always be combatted, you may think this talk of 'our communities' is anarcho-bollocks (and im no anarchist) but if i catch the person who puts up NF stickers round my area, or the people who have racially abused and intimidated my mates (or anybody for that matter) they should be knocked back down to size, and shown that they are not allowed to act in such as way in society nevermind mainstream politics,

Devrim

3rd August 2008, 13:56

i am aware and i am not predicting the same thing or to such terrible levels but merely that conditions are present for the rise of fascism,

But they are not in any way. The conditions that made the rise of fascism possible was a historic defeat of the working class, and the opening of the period of counter revolution.

as for a resurgence, we shall see how the unions and the labour party act when the Tories win the next general election, hopefully this will stem the rise of fascism to a degree,

There is no 'rise of fascism', and if there were these two organisations will do nothing to stem it.

however disregarding the BNP etc, street level fascism and intimidation should always be combatted, you may think this talk of 'our communities' is anarcho-bollocks (and im no anarchist) but if i catch the person who puts up NF stickers round my area, or the people who have racially abused and intimidated my mates (or anybody for that matter) they should be knocked back down to size, and shown that they are not allowed to act in such as way in society nevermind mainstream politics,

It is probably one guy putting up the stickers. Maybe you should talk to him. As for people 'racially abusing your mates', I doubt they are fascists. Surprisingly for some leftist racist opinions are quite common, and are not only held by Nazis.

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

3rd August 2008, 16:18

i am aware of what you say about the 2 organisation but if the Tories get in power the BNP lose some of the moderate right-wingers and if the unions force Labour to move to the left they BNP will have even more support sap away,

there are a fair few NFers knocking about alot of familiar faces were in Newcastle at a NF 'march' and yes 'casual rascism' does exsist but it is 'egged on' by fascists trying to exploit and the divide the working class,

i know who the local fascists are and i know where they are...

Forward Union

3rd August 2008, 16:52

There is no 'rise of fascism', and if there were these two organisations will do nothing to stem it.

While that language is certainly hyperbolic, the BNP is the fastest growing political organisation in the country, now at around 11,000 members. Their website is the most viewed political website in the country, and they have members of London city council.

They now qualify for political broadcasts at ellections. They're now the number four political party.

The BBC, considered fairly center left, did an entire "white season" adressing "white issues" and even did a programe trying to vindicate Enoch Powells 'rivers of blood speech'. Everywhere I go I hear people discussing race and immigration.

All this while the largest revolutionary left wing organisation in the country is the Kurdish Communist Party. There are more Kurdish immigrants and asylum seekers that happen to be communists, than there are English people who organise into a single party.

This is very out of character for the UK, we're not witnissing the rise of fascism, but we are witnissing a massive shift to the right in popular politics.

Devrim

3rd August 2008, 16:53

i am aware of what you say about the 2 organisation but if the Tories get in power the BNP lose some of the moderate right-wingers and if the unions force Labour to move to the left they BNP will have even more support sap away,

If the Tories win the next election, which it seems that they probably will, it will cut a little of the BNP's support, and Labour will probably move slightly to the left (nothing to do with the 'unions forcing them to').

So what?

It is all bourgeois politics.

there are a fair few NFers knocking about

How many is a 'fair few' really?

yes 'casual rascism' does exsist but it is 'egged on' by fascists trying to exploit and the divide the working class,

Many of the people that you call 'casual racists' probably never even meet a BNP member. Yes, of course the BNP would egg it on, but not as much as 'The Sun'.

i know who the local fascists are and i know where they are...

...And what are you, a sort of Left-wing James Bond? Without wanting to be patronizing, I get the impression that you are a young teenage boy in his mid-teens. Don't do anything stupid or you will probably end up getting slapped.

Devrim

Devrim

3rd August 2008, 17:06

While that language is certainly hyperbolic, the BNP is the fastest growing political organisation in the country, now at around 11,000 members. Their website is the most viewed political website in the country, and they have members of London city council.

As I have said before, they are a populist nationalist party. If they got into power, which is virtually impossible, they would behave like any other bourgeois party.

All this while the largest revolutionary left wing organisation in the country is the Kurdish Communist Party. There are more Kurdish immigrants and asylum seekers that happen to be communists, than there are English people who organise into a single party.

I think that you are probably a little confused here. As far as I know there is no organization called the 'Kurdish Communist Party'. There is a 'Kurdistan Communist Party http://www.kurdistancp.org/ and a Communist Party of Kurdistan http://www.dengekurdistan.com/

I doubt either of them are bigger in England than the SWP.

Devrim

Forward Union

3rd August 2008, 17:20

As I have said before, they are a populist nationalist party. If they got into power, which is virtually impossible, they would behave like any other bourgeois party.

I agree, but this is only looking at one aspect. The BNPs support base is built up of dissilusioned Labour voters. This is significant for two reasons. Firstly, its also our support base. But secondly, its also a large part of the three main political parties support base.

What would you expect mainstream parties to do if their support bases are being taken out by a small but very particular political platform?

The issue isnt so much the BNP itself. Capitalism simply wouldnt allow them to enact most of their iscolationist policies, but there is a very clear trend toward the right. This is observable to the point of news articles speaking of "youth flocking to the right"

I think that you are probably a little confused here. As far as I know there is no organization called the 'Kurdish Communist Party'. There is a 'Kurdistan Communist Party http://www.kurdistancp.org/ and a Communist Party of Kurdistan http://www.dengekurdistan.com/

Im not sure which one it is. Im fairly sure its the second one, they made up a large section of the Mayday march this year.

I doubt either of them are bigger in England than the SWP.

You'd be very suprised. Although I am not sure on figures, the SWP is rapidly in decline.

Devrim

3rd August 2008, 18:01

Im not sure which one it is. Im fairly sure its the second one, they made up a large section of the Mayday march this year.

I would imagine that you are referring to the second (Turkish, not Iraqi) group then if you are talking about Mayday. By the standards of the Turkish left though this group is tiny. I would be almost certain that it is not the biggest Turkish/Kurdish group in London.

You'd be very suprised. Although I am not sure on figures, the SWP is rapidly in decline.

I am sure that the SWP is in decline. I am also still sure that it is bigger than the group you refer too.

Regarding this statement:

the largest revolutionary left wing organisation in the country is the Kurdish Communist Party.

Have you got any proof for it, or did you just make it up because you saw a few Turks on the Mayday march?

Devrim

Socialismo_Libertario

4th August 2008, 00:17

That's not what he's doing at all.

I share Devrim's disagreement with the description of the BNP as 'fascist'. Yes, the BNP are scum - a very dodgy grouping of rightwing populists, Little Englander xenophobes, hooligans, and environmentalists* - but the label 'fascism', for Maxists, refers to a very definite historical phenomenon with very clear characteristics. We differ from liberals and others on the 'left' who use the word as an insult to diss whoever they don't like.

* The BNP is increasingly using the language of environmentalism to justify its core policies and ideas, e.g. anti-immigration and countryside worship. They also insist that they're the 'real' green party in the UK.

It was me that said that using the word fascism is not historically or etymologically suitable in describing any regime other than Mussolini's. They are not simple xenophobes these guys are neo-nazis! The example of front national and Le Pen should demonstrate how easy it is for such parties to gain massive support

Socialismo_Libertario

4th August 2008, 00:34

But they are not in any way. The conditions that made the rise of fascism possible was a historic defeat of the working class, and the opening of the period of counter revolution.

There is no 'rise of fascism', and if there were these two organisations will do nothing to stem it.

It is probably one guy putting up the stickers. Maybe you should talk to him. As for people 'racially abusing your mates', I doubt they are fascists. Surprisingly for some leftist racist opinions are quite common, and are not only held by Nazis.

Devrim

As a student I was one of several to march against BNP and skinheads. Your claim that "it's probably one guy putting up the stickers" is totally baseless. The BNP is highly organised with a large number of activists willing to do way more than just put up stickers and distribute leaflets....

Even if the BNP does not gain power, a strong presence of it violates the right of several not to live in fear

Lector Malibu

4th August 2008, 01:35

As a student I was one of several to march against BNP and skinheads. Your claim that "it's probably one guy putting up the stickers" is totally baseless. The BNP is highly organised with a large number of activists willing to do way more than just put up stickers and distribute leaflets....

Even if the BNP does not gain power, a strong presence of it violates the right of several not to live in fear

Though there are large groupings of idiotic White Power/Nazi "Skinheads" It is also common knowledge that a) the Skinhead subculture was not started that way. b)There are and I dare say larger groups of non fascist/racist Skinheads all around the globe.

I feel that you should indicate the type of Skinheads you are referring to in you're post. To just lump the Skinheads into one group regardless of politics is not fair and in accurate really.

Actually I'll drop some of my credentials now as you did in OI. I was an original Skinhead in the 80's and was involved in the scene for twenty years. I know the subculture very well and though I no longer claim the title I do feel the need to point out inconsistency's if they happen to arise.

Oh and screw the BNP , and there fascist agenda and all those Enoch Powell BUF types.

Devrim

4th August 2008, 07:16

Devrim

4th August 2008, 07:18

Even if the BNP does not gain power, a strong presence of it violates the right of several not to live in fear

Yes, people live in fear of things like people kicking down their doors in the morning and deporting them. This is something that happens to illegal immigrants in the UK.

Which party was it who instituted this policy?

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

4th August 2008, 10:45

I feel that you should indicate the type of Skinheads you are referring to in you're post. To just lump the Skinheads into one group regardless of politics is not fair and in accurate really.

Nazi skins are Boneheads

Left ones are Redskins (or many other names they call themselves)

Socialismo_Libertario

4th August 2008, 12:09

Though there are large groupings of idiotic White Power/Nazi "Skinheads" It is also common knowledge that a) the Skinhead subculture was not started that way. b)There are and I dare say larger groups of non fascist/racist Skinheads all around the globe.

I feel that you should indicate the type of Skinheads you are referring to in you're post. To just lump the Skinheads into one group regardless of politics is not fair and in accurate really.

Actually I'll drop some of my credentials now as you did in OI. I was an original Skinhead in the 80's and was involved in the scene for twenty years. I know the subculture very well and though I no longer claim the title I do feel the need to point out inconsistency's if they happen to arise.

Oh and screw the BNP , and there fascist agenda and all those Enoch Powell BUF types.

I am aware of the fact that there are left wing skinheads, in fact I know that several of them are trying to reclaim the term from the right- wing skinheads. I was refering to neo-nazi skinheads in my post.

Lector Malibu

4th August 2008, 17:04

Nazi skins are Boneheads
Left ones are Redskins (or many other names they call themselves)

I'm well aware of that. By saying that he marched against the BNP and skinheads he included leftwing skinheads because of the wording though obviously not intentional.

Devrim

5th August 2008, 13:10

The Home Office have detained and plan to send a single mum and her two year old son
back to China just one day before the start of the Olympic Games.
Despite many human rights organisations expressing concern that there has been a
major crackdown on dissent in the run up to the Games in Beijing, the Home Office
detained 25 year old Qin Wang and her son Jian Qi Lin on Friday 1st August and told
her she was going to be forcibly removed on a Russian Aeroflot plane from Heathrow
to China on Thursday 7th August, only one day before the opening ceremony
Qin Wang is one of those many Chinese people facing repression by Chinese
authorities. Qin arrived in the UK in October 2003 after managing to escape one of
the many political prisons in China.
In China, Qin had been working in a factory which was suddenly closed without any of
the workers getting paid their legitimate redundancy payments. When Qin and other
workers tried to agitate about this she was arrested by the authorities and jailed
for three months. Whilst in jail Qin was tortured and eventually her family managed
to successfully petition for her to be taken to hospital. When in hospital Qin
managed to escape and came to the UK.
Now Qin, a victim of torture, has been detained without notice by the British
authorities and is in Dungavel detention centre. Terrified of being returned she has
not eaten for three days and her baby, two and a half year old Jian Qi Lin, who was
born here in the UK, is very unwell.
This family urgently need your help.

Guess which party's policy is being implemented here;
a) NSDAP
b) BNP
c) The Labour Party

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

5th August 2008, 19:35

no please stop i love the ruling parties and will never acsept criticism of them, heil Tony Blair,

point please?

Devrim

5th August 2008, 21:53

point please?

The real racist danger does not come from the BNP but from the state.

Devrim

Revolutiondownunder

6th August 2008, 09:05

My point ? What is the purpose of this thread ? As the quote below shows it was meant to act as an archive for reaons as to why the BNP is fascist. That "long cut and paste" provides the reasons and the evidence. What's your point ?

You dont get it do you?

The BNP and other far right, anti-worker groups across europe are winning votes because people dont believe they are fascists.

The BNP had only about 1000 members at the end of the 90s. Now they have 10,000 most of whom have joined since they stopped being openly fascist. Thats 9000 people who probably dont feel any love for the fascist tradition. They are almost certainly amazingly racist to join such a party but not really fash.

What Nick the dick and his friends thinks in private doesnt really matter anymore, they've been caught out enough times to know that they need to shut up. What is worrying is that other 9000 [as well as the voters they keep picking up]. Most of whom are "National populists" [racists] and nothing else.

As I said before, I like reading the history of the working class in Britain and the people who are voting BNP are exactly the sort of people who would vote for a real working-class based revolutionary party, its just that the BNP got there first.

Those should be Red votes and activists, not fash votes.

So the traditional ways of attacking them and their voters just dont seem to work anymore. A real radical working-class alternative is needed.

Revolutiondownunder

6th August 2008, 09:11

Have you got any proof for it, or did you just make it up because you saw a few Turks on the Mayday march?

Devrim

ah.... dont know if you know but its offensive to kurds to call them Turks:blushing:

Holden Caulfield

6th August 2008, 09:13

The real racist danger does not come from the BNP but from the state.

Devrim

true most of it does, there is a great many pieces of rascists and prejudice regulations from the Uk government, nobody denied it or argued the point,

but we should not ignore the fash or allow them to grow in support

Devrim

6th August 2008, 12:33

true most of it does, there is a great many pieces of rascists and prejudice regulations from the Uk government, nobody denied it or argued the point,

but we should not ignore the fash or allow them to grow in support

So you accept intellectually that the real racist force in society is the state let's say along side the bourgeois media, but you insist that we should not ignore this tiny insignificant group which compared to the state has absolutely no influence, and is really never likely to have any.

That is logical.

Devrim

Devrim

6th August 2008, 12:44

ah.... dont know if you know but its offensive to kurds to call them Turks:blushing:

I meant what I said. He saw a few Turks. The group that he referred to is tiny and basically the majority of people he saw would have been from other groups. Although in London there are probably proportionally more Kurds than in the general population in Turkey, and one could also say that on the left there are proportionally more Kurds, I would still imagine that a large majority of the people on that march with origins in the land area covered by the Republic of Turkey were not Kurds. So, as I said 'he saw a few Turks'.

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

6th August 2008, 15:07

So you accept intellectually that the real racist force in society is the state let's say along side the bourgeois media, but you insist that we should not ignore this tiny insignificant group which compared to the state has absolutely no influence, and is really never likely to have any.
what i'm saying is that it is two sides of the same coin, the BNP are rising because of the prejudice and the bias in the media and are also growing because of the failiure of the governments,

and so we should fight both the governments opression and the prejudice, grass roots intimidation and manipulation of the working classes by the fascists, and not allow them to grow in power and support,

they are a threat in several ways, i think this is the only thing we disagree on..

Devrim

6th August 2008, 17:50

they are a threat in several ways, i think this is the only thing we disagree on..

No, really it isn't, I think that anti-fascism is a bourgeois ideology, which drags workers into the defence of the state. I don't think we agree on that.

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

6th August 2008, 18:51

No, really it isn't, I think that anti-fascism is a bourgeois ideology, which drags workers into the defence of the state. I don't think we agree on that.

Devrim

anti-fascism (in the UK at least since that is what i know) does not support, uphold or even work with the state, anti-fascism defends people not the state. It defends those who are victimised and/or alienated by fascism and fascists. Antifa itself does not act against the state (in my experience) however the members of antifa are also pushing for revolution against the state be it through anarchist or socialist movements, so how can a organisation with such members be against the working class.

to call it a bourgeois ideology is plain wrong, we aim to stop fascists splitting the working classes along ethnic/racial divisions, something which benafits the ruling class. Read about the Klu Klux Klan, they were never in any real power however they pushed some 'workers' into right wing mind sets so they would defend the ruling clique, by playing on the rascism of the people at that time.

Trystan

6th August 2008, 19:12

The BNP is fascist because they gain support by playing the race card. Their membership is limited to whites, their political broadcasts show black and Asian people on British streets (how unsophisticated can you get?). Like other fascist group they are full of cultural vulgarity and adhere to rotten national stereotypes. The BNP have a strong history of fascist and Nazi idolatry. Their youth leader was caught expressing his admiration for Hitler as recently as 2002 (was it?).

Although they might have few sophistos with suits and "intellectuals" leading them, this is just a front: the mass of their support is made up of knuckle draggers (and the poor bastards who buy into their shit).

Andy Bowden

6th August 2008, 20:01

The BNP are fascist for the reasons TAT outlined at the start of this thread,

They're fascists because they view society based on racial/national lines, they believe in organisational hierarchy, authoritarianism, political suppression and a corporate state.

What % of vote they get doesn't change their programme. The Nazi vote in 1928 was only 2.6% for example, that didn't change the fact they were fascists. The BNP vote today, is on average much healthier.

Does that mean the BNP will be in Government in 4 years? No. As Devrim has pointed out the economic, social and political conditions in Britain in 2008 are not the same as Germany in the 30's.

However fascism basis itself on the crisis of capitalism, and the danger of fascism will returning will never really be stopped so long as capitalism exists.

So I do think the BNP - as Holden pointed out, Britains 4th party, with a national profile - could potentially take or share power within 10 -15 years, considering the coming economic crisis and the shift in politics to the right across Europe in general.

Fascists are already in coaltion with Berlusconi for example.

Devrim

6th August 2008, 20:29

anti-fascism (in the UK at least since that is what i know) does not support, uphold or even work with the state, anti-fascism defends people not the state.

However, on an ideological level is does support the state. In seeing fascism as this sort of 'great evil' it by default says that the state should be defended against it, and has the role of rallying workers around the defence of 'democracy' against fascism.

As for anti-fascists in the UK working with the state, well lets look at Unite Against Fascism for example:

At Unite Against Fascism's 2007 national conference, speakers ranged from cabinet minister Peter Hain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hain)
Government minister? You can't get much more part of the state than that.

Just for good measure though they also include Tories too:

Although the organisation is anti-fascist, this does not mean that it is a left-wing pressure group. Members include the right-wing former Conservative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_%28UK%29) MP Sir Teddy Taylor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_Taylor).
This man was a member of a party which had billposters at a general election saying 'If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour'.

Also we shouldn't forget that 'Searchlight', an group with well known links to Special branch, was involved in setting up UAF.

The anti-fascist magazine Searchlight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searchlight_Magazine) disaffiliated from UAF after an argument over tactics to defeat the BNP.

So yes, I don't think it is unreal to say that UAF, for example, is a cross class alliance in defence of the state against fascism. You might argue that this is only one group, but I would argue that it defines the ideology of anti-fascism on a very basic level.

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

6th August 2008, 20:32

Devrim

6th August 2008, 20:33

The BNP is fascist because they gain support by playing the race card.

Fascism doesn't necessarily involve racism. Turkish fascism for example isn't biologically racist at all.

Is the Tory party fascist because they have openly played the race card at times?

Devrim

Devrim

6th August 2008, 20:37

So I do think the BNP - as Holden pointed out, Britains 4th party, with a national profile - could potentially take or share power within 10 -15 years, considering the coming economic crisis and the shift in politics to the right across Europe in general.

Fascists are already in coaltion with Berlusconi for example.

We had the fascists in government in Turkey a few years ago. They behaved like any other bourgeois party as I am sure they are doing in Italy.

The horrors of fascism in the 1930s were only possible on the back of the historic defeat of the working class. And remember in Germany the working class wasn't defeated by fascists but by the social democrats. Fascism was amovement that arose after the working class was defeated.

The BNP aren't coming to power in the UK in the near future (10-15 years), and if they did in the current situation they would behave pretty much like any other party.

Devrim

Devrim

6th August 2008, 20:41

read the founding statement of antifa UK,

yes they are anti-fascists too but not the same as me, thats like me saying you love Stalin and are a purge monger just because you are a communist,

i will agree most of the UAF are middle class:laugh:

i can only speak for myself and my own movement

I think that antifa is just the radical extreme of the same movement. At its base, when you strip away the radical words, it peddles a similar kind of politics.

Devrim

RaiseYourVoice

6th August 2008, 21:01

Well as this is turning to a general discussion i have something to add. I think how to fight fascism is very specific to a country. Here in Germany we have fascists actively trying to take-over the streets and in some areas have managed no-go areas for immigrants / obvious leftwingers. That makes anti-fascism nessesary for any leftwing group. Also we can see a huge gain in strengh from the 90s where they couldnt ever march to now where they can hardly be stopped. Both because of the growing strengh of the nazis on one hand and the increased protecting and changed policy by state and police. The official line is that nazis march by any cost also breaking up peaceful blockades.

Apart from antifascism being needed in this situation, anti-fascism is also a huge basis for leftist recruitment. I know many people who joined my organisation first because they wanted to do something against nazis and become good communists from that. As the Nazis are so protected by the state, supported by parts of the ruling class, in totall actually pretty classical fascists with new rethoric, anti-fascism here is a good starting point for radical politics.

On the other hand we saw the danger of focusing on radical antifascism in germany too. The Autonomous movement completely lost any connection to the working class or any allied class. Only within the rests of the student movement they have some influence. Thus right now we have no anti-miliaristic movement, no enviromental movement, not anti-repression movement oh and of course no working class movement. (The autonomous groups defeated themselves, the communists didnt get up from the SU breakdown yet)

In the end i see the need to do anti-fascist work, but considering how many people die in imperialist wars, how our army tries to get support in the society, to me anti-militarism is way more important.

spartan

6th August 2008, 22:19

We had the fascists in government in Turkey a few years ago. They behaved like any other bourgeois party as I am sure they are doing in Italy.

Well since Berlusconi was reelected he is bringing in legislation which will prevent charges or the prosecution of elected officials (he was ready to face charges of corruption at the time) and recently he has been going nuts over immigrants even sending in the army onto the streets to arrest any foreign looking (i.e. non-white) people.

You can't tell me that the Fascists within his coalition haven't had a hand in this can you?

All they have to do to get their way is threaten to leave his coalition which would destroy Berlusconi's majority in parliament and force new elections if they don't get what they want.

Andy Bowden

6th August 2008, 22:37

The BNP aren't coming to power in the UK in the near future (10-15 years), and if they did in the current situation they would behave pretty much like any other party.

Do you think if the BNP came to power, Britain would have any kind of an asylum policy?

What about Muslims, do you think they would be treated in the same way as they are by New Labour?

Remember the BNP's own programme and propaganda defines its aim as an overwhelmingly white Britain. The other parties of the ruling class make a token effort at least to portray themselves as open to people of all backgrounds.

That makes sense from their perspective. For the BNP however, despite their change in PR, they are ultimately led by the same core of fascist ideologues.

I think a BNP government - different from a coalition of which they would be a member - would be qualitatively different from the Tories, New Labour on the basis that they would remove any kind of official equality for Muslims, Blacks, and other minorities with the aim of "encouraging" an all white Britain.

And thats before you take a look at what they would do to workers parties and organisations, given their economic model is the corporate state.

So I would define any government they run as being different and much worse than New Labour or the Tories.

Devrim

7th August 2008, 07:33

Well since Berlusconi was reelected he is bringing in legislation which will prevent charges or the prosecution of elected officials (he was ready to face charges of corruption at the time) and recently he has been going nuts over immigrants even sending in the army onto the streets to arrest any foreign looking (i.e. non-white) people.

You can't tell me that the Fascists within his coalition haven't had a hand in this can you?

Er well yes I can. The first point is just naked self interest. There is nothing fascistic about a law preventing the prosecution of elected officials. They are already in place in many countries. The second is just the continuation of the normal Italian anti-immigrant policy. I don't think that you need fascists to have a hand in either ot these things.

Devrim

Devrim

7th August 2008, 07:44

Do you think if the BNP came to power, Britain would have any kind of an asylum policy?

What about Muslims, do you think they would be treated in the same way as they are by New Labour?

But the BNP are not coming to power. If they did though, and I think it is a very, very low possibility, they would have had to transform themselves utterly.

But to answer the questions, I think that the BNP would abide by international law over asylum whilst trying to reduce the number of applicants for asylum and successful asylum seekers.

Funnily enough this is just like the Labour parties policy:

There is also a Public Performance Target to remove more asylum seekers who have been judged not to be refugees under the internation definition than new anticipated unfounded applications. This target was met early in 2006.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Kingdom_%281922-present_day%29#cite_note-36) Official figures for numbers of people claiming asylum in the UK were at a 13 year low by March 2006

As for the treatment of Muslims, I think they would be demonised, stigmatised, and discriminated against, so yes, just like under Labour.

Devrim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Asylumapplicants.jpg

Andy Bowden

7th August 2008, 19:37

The Labour Party has a racist immigration policy, however it is possible - as hundreds of thousands of immigrants will testify - to be a Pakistani, Jamaican etc and immigrate to the UK and become a citizen.

The BNP's stated policy is to end non-white immigration. Thats qualatitvely different from New Labour.

As regards Muslims, while New Labour undoubtedly have a repressive policy towards Muslims in the UK the BNP's programme is that "indigenous" Britons be given advantage over "foreigners" - ie Muslims.

So, for example, council houses would be granted to white, indigenous Britains before those the BNP defines as "foreign".

While the state does have a racist policy in many areas the BNP programme differs in that it makes no attempt to provide some crumbs off the table, or to maintain a facade of equality.

Thats just one of the differences between the BNP and New Labour (others being the likely banning and/or violent suppression of workers organisations). I'm waiting for someone to declare in this thread that it's the "Social Fascists" who are the real enemy...

Devrim

7th August 2008, 20:59

Holden Caulfield

7th August 2008, 21:55

Faction2008

7th August 2008, 22:34

Holden Caulfield

7th August 2008, 22:41

in Carlisle, a town with a tiny immigrant population and no history of workers voting for the right wing in any great numbers, in the last local elections they got 10% of the vote...

they gained over 2 percent many places in many elections, they have a member of the London council will most probably have an MEP they have councillors and MPs, these are signs that they as a party are growning and are a threat

Revolutiondownunder

8th August 2008, 04:51

So I do think the BNP - as Holden pointed out, Britains 4th party, with a national profile - could potentially take or share power within 10 -15 years, considering the coming economic crisis and the shift in politics to the right across Europe in general. .

Now that is scary.:scared:

Considering what is happening to the roma in Italy I dont think anyone wants the same thing to happen to the UK [or anywhere else for that matter].:(

spartan

8th August 2008, 05:12

Now that is scary.:scared:

Considering what is happening to the roma in Italy I dont think anyone wants the same thing to happen to the UK [or anywhere else for that matter].:(
Which is why ignoring it and doing nothing about it (which some here seem to be advocating) is stupid and a dangerous thing to do.

The BNP have got very far in a decade (from far-right obscurity to knocking on the doors of Westminster) so just imagine how far they might get in another decade?

Devrim

8th August 2008, 06:58

i dont want this to degenerate into a never ending circular arguement with two constantly opposing points of view so i'm not going to add much,

but New Labour is already stealing ideas from the BNP, which shows the viability of their ideas in modern society and which shows the real danger they pose,

and i agree with Andy. B

Accept that these ideas were there being and being implemented by the Labour Party long before the BNP came along.

Of course is one sees the BNP as some especially 'evil' party, which is the root of all evil, then it is a logical conclusion that verything bad comes from them.

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

8th August 2008, 09:54

Of course is one sees the BNP as some especially 'evil' party, which is the root of all evil, then it is a logical conclusion that verything bad comes from them.

comes from capitalism:cool:, which the BNP are a product, and they a danger & obstacle to the revolutionary movement and the struggle towards equality in the fact they create divisions and manipulate the working class to defend any future or present Nationalist State

Andy Bowden

8th August 2008, 17:27

It is all very well, but as you may have noticed it is the Labour Party who are in power enacting these policies while the BNP are merely fantasising about it with absolutely no chance of getting into power.

What do you mean by enacting "these" policies? If you are referring to racist asylum and immigration law you are correct, but if you are referring to the BNP's programme then you are incorrect.

BNP policy is to end non-white immigration and end formal legal equality for those they deem "foreign". The Labour Party is simply not doing that - in fact they've made a concerted effort to make "Britishness" something all people in the UK can identify with.

Every time a fascist party has gained support elements on the Left have claimed they will be just the same as mainstream capitalist parties. And every time they are wrong.

Devrim

8th August 2008, 20:27

What do you mean by enacting "these" policies? If you are referring to racist asylum and immigration law you are correct, but if you are referring to the BNP's programme then you are incorrect.

No, I was referring to the Labour Party's policy.

Every time a fascist party has gained support elements on the Left have claimed they will be just the same as mainstream capitalist parties. And every time they are wrong.

Andy, fascism hasn't come to power since the thirties. It isn't coming to power now.

Devrim

Revolutiondownunder

10th August 2008, 08:42

comes from capitalism:cool:, which the BNP are a product, and they a danger & obstacle to the revolutionary movement and the struggle towards equality

The BNP may never come to power, but they do divide the working class in the areas worst hit by capitalism. If those areas were not divided they might be made a future base for a true workers party.

If the BNP can make these areas consider race to be more important than class, they might be lost for generations.

THAT is what makes the BNP so dangerous.

Devrim

10th August 2008, 09:09

If the BNP can make these areas consider race to be more important than class,Is the BNP the main force in doing this? I thought the entire bourgeois media was arguing a pretty similar line.

they might be lost for generations.
Pure hyperbole.

Devrim

Andy Bowden

10th August 2008, 13:38

Andy, fascism hasn't come to power since the thirties. It isn't coming to power now.

But if the BNP did come to power, would it be no different from New Labour?

Devrim

10th August 2008, 14:21

But if the BNP did come to power, would it be no different from New Labour?

If it did, Andy, it would have to change its politics dramatically.

At the moment in Turkey we have fascists in parliament, and had them in coalition government in the parliament before last. They weren't any different than any of the other bourgeois parties. And remember that the Turkish fascists were/are a lot more hardcore than the BNP.

The BNP in its current form can't come to power. If it were to (this side of an attempt at workers' revolution) it would have to transform itself utterly.

I would imagine that it would be pretty similar to a Labour party in the same period, which itself would have had to change.

But then there is another point, the bourgeois uses its parties as weapons against the working class. If workers line up with one against the other they become completely tied into bourgeois politics.

Devrim

rednordman

10th August 2008, 19:37

At the moment in Turkey we have fascists in parliament, and had them in coalition government in the parliament before last. They weren't any different than any of the other bourgeois parties. And remember that the Turkish fascists were/are a lot more hardcore than the BNPDevrim

I'v always wondered (or dreaded) what it would actually be like to have BNP in parlament or in power. Has having Fascists within the parlament made any difference to the way in which Turkey is run?

Even though i do agree with alot of you when you say that the BNP would have to change their policies to be more like the popular 3 parties in the uk (Lab/Libs/Cons), I just believe that the main reason the BNP is popular at the moment is simply because they are preaching radical right-wing rubbish about kicking out immagrants and 'instilling' traditional British values into society. This is the worrying part of it as it doesnt say very much for the people of UK if they do (or want to) believe it.

Devrim

10th August 2008, 20:22

I'v always wondered (or dreaded) what it would actually be like to have BNP in parlament or in power. Has having Fascists within the parlament made any difference to the way in which Turkey is run?

The MHP (the main fascist party) are the third party in parliament at the moment, after the AKP (Islamicist), and the CHP (Kemalist). They were in coalition government in the parliament before last.

It made no difference at all to the way the state is run. Both of the other parties, and the army support war in the South-East, and intervention in Northern Iraq.

Devrim

spartan

10th August 2008, 22:35

If it did, Andy, it would have to change its politics dramatically.

It already has.

But the point is they only do this out of fear of negative public perception and to gain votes.

Deep down the party leadership and support base has stayed true to it's original beliefs of white supremacism and wanting to dress up in a black SS uniform every saturday.

At the moment in Turkey we have fascists in parliament, and had them in coalition government in the parliament before last. They weren't any different than any of the other bourgeois parties. And remember that the Turkish fascists were/are a lot more hardcore than the BNP.

With all due respect this isn't Turkey.

And yes perhaps the Turkish Fascists are more hardcore than the BNP, but the fact remains that the BNP has attracted hardcore types before and continues to do so (there are undercover videos showing BNP supporters saying that it is their fantasy to "blow up all Mosques with a rocket launcher" amongst many other horrific things).

Indeed the party leadership is mostly made up of people convicted for having explosive materials in their possession, inciting racial violence and/or carrying out racist and domestic (wifebeater) assaults.

Devrim

11th August 2008, 06:16

It already has.

But the point is they only do this out of fear of negative public perception and to gain votes.

Deep down the party leadership and support base has stayed true to it's original beliefs of white supremacism and wanting to dress up in a black SS uniform every saturday.

Yes, and it will continue to change anyway. But to get into power would involve a massive change including probably a new leadership.

With all due respect this isn't Turkey.

And yes perhaps the Turkish Fascists are more hardcore than the BNP, but the fact remains that the BNP has attracted hardcore types before and continues to do so (there are undercover videos showing BNP supporters saying that it is their fantasy to "blow up all Mosques with a rocket launcher" amongst many other horrific things).

Indeed the party leadership is mostly made up of people convicted for having explosive materials in their possession, inciting racial violence and/or carrying out racist and domestic (wifebeater) assaults.

It is all pretty Mickey Mouse stuff really. The BNP fantasise about things. Their experience with explosives is in some cases laughable (the guy blowing himself up, and injuring himself on the way to bomb the WRP). So what you are saying is that they incite racial hatred (of course they are racists), and they beat their wives.

The Grey Wolves in Turkey murder thousands of people ranging from political assassinations to pogroms.

Devrim

Revolutiondownunder

13th August 2008, 09:27

Is the BNP the main force in doing this? I thought the entire bourgeois media was arguing a pretty similar line.
Devrim

Poor you, not in my country at least, the Murdoch newspapers are racist and reactionary, but they still give space to multicultural campaigns and attack hardcore racists [as opposed to the softer more mainstream kind].

INDK

13th August 2008, 16:45

they're not fascist if you take that to mean supporter of Benito Mussolini, but then again neither was hitler. However in the broad sense of the term I'd say they are. They essentially believe that british people are the best and anyone else should get the fuck away. so yeah they're fascists.

Well if you can't call them Fascists because of the specific ideological definition of Fascism, that's fine, however they are an extreme form of Nationalist reactionaries that though it isn't Fascism by the book should be treated and combated as such.

Devrim

14th August 2008, 06:46

Poor you, not in my country at least, the Murdoch newspapers are racist and reactionary, but they still give space to multicultural campaigns and attack hardcore racists [as opposed to the softer more mainstream kind].

Actually not in my country, Biological racism does not have much force here. Basically there aren't enough black people to hate.

I was referring to the likes of the Murdoch press. Yes, they might attack hardcore racists. After all though it makes their much more dangerous racism acceptable.

Devrim

Revolutiondownunder

19th August 2008, 04:01

Actually not in my country, Biological racism does not have much force here. Basically there aren't enough black people to hate.

What about the Kurds? Is there not an element of biological racism there?

I was referring to the likes of the Murdoch press. Yes, they might attack hardcore racists. After all though it makes their much more dangerous racism acceptable.

Wait so the racism of the Murdoch press is more dangerous than fascism?

Newscorp is bad, but they havent been calling for many gas chambers up my end.

Saorsa

19th August 2008, 05:01

Newscorp is bad, but they havent been calling for many gas chambers up my end.

Give me a link that proves the BNP have been calling for gas chambers! :lol:

I mostly agree with Devrim here. The BNP are obviously bad, and should be opposed, but the Labour Party are a much bigger and a much more real threat that should be opposed with a great deal more vigour. The ruling class in Britain at the moment is actually opposed to racism in and of itself, as are it's counterparts in Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere.

Immigration policy is not based primarily on the colour of you're skin anymore, but rather more purely on you're class, and affirmative action programs and political correctness show the extent to which the ruling class now puts forward generally socially liberal policies, as they are actually able to ensure smoother running for the capitalist system.

Devrim

19th August 2008, 07:51

What about the Kurds? Is there not an element of biological racism there?

It is not biological racism at all. If you come from a Kurdish background, but identify as being a Turk, you are effectively a Turk. If you are black, and identify as being white, you are still obviously black.

This is not to say that the Turkish fascists are not vicious nationalists, but their ideology doesn't lie in biological racism.

Wait so the racism of the Murdoch press is more dangerous than fascism?

Newscorp is bad, but they havent been calling for many gas chambers up my end.The BNP don't call for gas chambers either, and their racism will probabely never be heard as loudly as that of the mainstream press.

Devrim

Revolutiondownunder

20th August 2008, 12:06

The BNP don't call for gas chambers either

Neither did Hitler at first, that came later.

The ruling class in Britain at the moment is actually opposed to racism in and of itself, as are it's counterparts in Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere.

But isnt that just a sham? They seem happy enough to excuse racism, and they are a part of the capitalist system.

If the ruling class is not racist then who is causing the racism?

spartan

20th August 2008, 22:13

But isnt that just a sham? They seem happy enough to excuse racism, and they are a part of the capitalist system.

If the ruling class is not racist then who is causing the racism?
Socially they promote racism to divide the working class.

Economically they don't care what race or gender you are as long as you work and make them wealth.

Holden Caulfield

20th August 2008, 22:28

Socially they promote racism to divide the working class.
exactly!

this is what makes them a real obstacle in the class struggle,

Devrim

21st August 2008, 06:55

exactly!

this is what makes them a real obstacle in the class struggle,

He is talking about the bourgeoisie in general, not the fascists.

Devrim

Holden Caulfield

21st August 2008, 08:51

Revolutiondownunder

21st August 2008, 09:48

^ the fascists promote and ingrain the prejudices handed down to them by the ruling classes, fascism in the 1930's was petit-bourgeois now it has percolated down and is rooted in the working class, dividing and weakening potentinal revolutionary movements,

So that would mean that in your view the working class and the ruling class are more racist and the middle "professional" class is less so.

This would line up with my experiences talking to people.

Holden Caulfield

21st August 2008, 13:15

the middle class is the ruling class, and their prejudices are propagandized to the working classes through the Daily Mail and the Sun etc, they seek to divide the workers and keep the labour costs down..

working class rascists are often less eloquent in their prejudices, look at Obama he is just as prejudice and rascist as Bush but middle class white people love him as he is liberal in his choice of words,

Revolutiondownunder

22nd August 2008, 06:29

Holden Caulfield

22nd August 2008, 09:35

Can a black man BE racist

yes! why couldnt a black person be rascist?
unless you think we ("the white race") are actually superior..

look at the Nation Of Islam, prominent american Nazis used to (might still) support them as they both preach seperation, which is rascist

Revolutiondownunder

25th August 2008, 09:51

yes! why couldnt a black person be rascist?
unless you think we ("the white race") are actually superior..

WTF? How would being racist make anyone superior?:lol:

Im just asking if you believe that a member of an oppressed community can be "racist" since they dont hold any power in the country in which they live.

Its something my teacher brought up. Just asking.

PRC-UTE

30th August 2008, 16:36

Devrim

30th August 2008, 16:52

No doubt it has something to do with their links to far right groups that go out and attack minorities and lefties. It's not irrational as you'd like to make it out to be.

But really what percentage of attacks on minorities are orchestrated by these groups? I would imagine that it is very low.

Devrim

Revolutiondownunder

2nd September 2008, 11:31

But really what percentage of attacks on minorities are orchestrated by these groups? I would imagine that it is very low.

Devrim

Most of the books ive read would tell you that the average racist attacker is almost never connected to a political party of any kind.

Pirate turtle the 11th

2nd September 2008, 12:00

Most of the books ive read would tell you that the average racist attacker is almost never connected to a political party of any kind.

But this shit those organizations push makes it more socially exseptable to be a racist piece of shit. This often allows racist sentiments to grow unchallenged.

Revolutiondownunder

3rd September 2008, 09:03

But this shit those organizations push makes it more socially exseptable to be a racist piece of shit. This often allows racist sentiments to grow unchallenged.

Yup. 100% right.

But members of racist political parties rarely get their filthy hands dirty themselves, they merely inspire others to commit hate crimes.