a form my employer has asked me to fill in

[Dr Mindbender]

thought this might be an interesting read. It tells an interesting precedence for who is or isnt allowed to work for the british govt. As i work in the civil service i have been asked to complete a form which asks invasive questions about my previous political activism.

Surely there must be a human rights violation here somewhere? If i am candid it gives my boss information which in all likliehood they would use against me.

The content of the first page is thus:

''Statement of HM Government's vetting policy

In the interests of national security, safeguarding 'Parliamentary' democracy[sic] and mantaining the proper security of the Governments's essential activities, it is the policy of HMG that no one should be employed in connection with work the nature of which is vital to the interests of the state who:

*is, or has been, involved in, or associated with any of the following activities:

*espionage;

*terrorism;

*sabotage;

*actions intended to overthrow or undermine Parliamentary democracy by political, industrial or violent means; or

*is, or has recently been-

*a member of any organisation which has advocated such activites; or

*associated with any such organisation, or any of its members in such a way as to raise reasonable doubts about his or her reliability; or

(heres the real bullshit part)

*is susceptible to pressure or improper influence, for example because of current or past conduct; or

*has shown dishonesty or lack of integrity which throws doubt upon their reliability; or

*has demonstrated behaviour or is subject to curcumstances which may otherwise indicate unreliabilty... ''

I think what they are trying to do is create a political precedence in my workplace to weed out all potential 'troublemakers' in an effort to reduce strikes and political action. I think the past week at the passport office has ruffled their feathers a bit.

What do you think, should i lie on this form or what?

PS. If you call actively supporting revolution an act of advocating parliamentary overthrow if i deny anything i will be lying.

[Dr Mindbender]

PS. This is a plea for advice by the way, the beourgiose dogs want this form back by Thursday.
:(

[Red October]

I guess your only option is to lie. If you tell them you're a communist, I doubt that'll help you or earn you points for honesty. This is sort of unrelated, but when a friend of mine was applying for US citizenship he was asked if he associated with communists or anyone else who wants to overthrow the US government and he lied and never heard from them about it.

[Dr Mindbender]

I guess your only option is to lie. If you tell them you're a communist, I doubt that'll help you or earn you points for honesty. This is sort of unrelated, but when a friend of mine was applying for US citizenship he was asked if he associated with communists or anyone else who wants to overthrow the US government and he lied and never heard from them about it.

thing is though - (unlikely but not impossible) if they found out the truth about my past i could get done for making a false statement to the government.
Could potentially be one of those ''damned if you do damned if you dont'' scenarios.

what i want to know is isnt there some sort of human rights law that prevents the govt or my employer asking these sorts of questions?

I cant believe there isnt

[Red October]

thing is though - (unlikely but not impossible) if they found out the truth about my past i could get done for making a false statement to the government.
Could potentially be one of those ''damned if you do damned if you dont'' scenarios.

what i want to know is isnt there some sort of human rights law that prevents the govt or my employer asking these sorts of questions?

I cant believe there isnt

If there is such a law, the government doesn't seem to care or they wouldn't be putting you in this situation. And if you refused to answer the questions they'd probably find it suspicious. Maybe you could try to downplay your leftist politics or something like that. Do you know other people who have had to do this and how they responded?

[Dr Mindbender]

If there is such a law, the government doesn't seem to care or they wouldn't be putting you in this situation. And if you refused to answer the questions they'd probably find it suspicious. Maybe you could try to downplay your leftist politics or something like that. Do you know other people who have had to do this and how they responded?
Everyone has to fill it in but as far as i know, i'm the only one thats ever been involved in revolutionary politics.

The political sentiment in my town is very middle-of-the-road if you get my drift.

[Pogue]

Just lie mate, it wont do you any good for them to know you're into revolutionary stuff, and they wont find out unless you bring an AK to work or something.

[Die Neue Zeit]

*actions intended to overthrow or undermine Parliamentary democracy by political, industrial or violent means; or

Gee - isn't the advocacy of PARTICIPATORY democracy an "action intended to overthrow or undermine PARLIAMENTARY [electoralism] by political [...] means"? :rolleyes:

[Lost In Translation]

Wow, this form is pretty revealing if you make a very honest reply of it. As others have suggested: lie. If they do find out, just say it wasn't anything big. If worst comes to worst, say you've lost interest in it, and has moved on (but I hope it doesn't come to that).

[communard resolution]

By all means, lie about it! What good will it do if you tell them?

Even if you were planning sabotage, you would be best advised to lie to them about it.

As you said, chances are minimal that they find out about your past activities, and if they do you can still act stupid/naive and say you didn't know that's what they meant: "What, the commies want to overthrow the government? Gosh, I didn't know that! I only joined because my friends told me to... I thought they just wanted all the nations in the world to be friends" etc

[Kami]

They make you fill these out if you work anywhere in westminster too, and it's not a new thing either. Just lie, easiest way to do it :P

[Dr Mindbender]

Gee - isn't the advocacy of PARTICIPATORY democracy an "action intended to overthrow or undermine PARLIAMENTARY [electoralism] by political [...] means"? :rolleyes:
yep, theyre basically saying ''if you dont agree with the status quo we dont want you here''.

Damn, i got to join a union they would have a field day with this.

[rednordman]

Tricky one this, and im sorry that you and anyone else has to go through this shit as it must seem like the most unwelcoming start to a job you have ever had. I agree with everyone else here on the forum, just lie on the form+don't feel put upon as im sure that everyone has to fill one of these in. The question that i really want to ask is how much do you think we are actually monitored by the gov? how far does it go..from becoming activist, to say, simply buying a book off amazon, etc? (I know this sounds stupid and paranoid but i wonder?) I'v head on a recent topic that the gov. was giving permission to big companies to create blacklists for employees. Would this only apply to workers who steal or are violent, or would workers who strike or are a bit too vocal and millitant within unions also be included? (sorry if this has gone off topic)

[Dr Mindbender]

Tricky one this, and im sorry that you and anyone else has to go through this shit as it must seem like the most unwelcoming start to a job you have ever had.
Actually, ive been in the position almost 3 years now. I think this form is a knee jerk reaction a recent public sector strike we had this week.


I agree with everyone else here on the forum, just lie on the form+don't feel put upon as im sure that everyone has to fill one of these in. The question that i really want to ask is how much do you think we are actually monitored by the gov? how far does it go..from becoming activist, to say, simply buying a book off amazon, etc? (I know this sounds stupid and paranoid but i wonder?) I'v head on a recent topic that the gov. was giving permission to big companies to create blacklists for employees. Would this only apply to workers who steal or are violent, or would workers who strike or are a bit too vocal and millitant within unions also be included? (sorry if this has gone off topic)
thanks for the input.

[F9]

if you cant find another job with no such "requirements" the only option that lefts to you is to lie.But you could search for another job too!;)

Fuserg9:star:

[Bilan]

I would suggest lying about it, but you really are in a bit of a tricky situation.

For me personally, I would lie. It's simply not worth bringing it to light.

It does mean, however, that you're involvement with socialist organizations will not be able to be exposed. You should be aware of the repercussions of going either way.

[Dean]

Lie, fuck these assholes. I don't take such things seriously, I don't think you have anything to lose by lying. My impression is that its much more damaging to have outstanding debts, and I do that too. No reason to give these fuckers what they want if you don't have to (and you don't!).

[al8]

That's right your concious enemies do not deserve truth, or anything for that matter. Think about it. This is one of those senarios that it's okey to lie.

[Dr Mindbender]

That's right your concious enemies do not deserve truth, or anything for that matter. Think about it. This is one of those senarios that it's okey to lie.

yeah but i'm not in a position to lose my job either. I'm not well equipped for that at consequence at all.

[chimx]

Don't lie, just interpret the semantics of the document differently than your employer and sign away.

[Dr Mindbender]

Don't lie, just interpret the semantics of the document differently than your employer and sign away.
somehow i doubt my employer is open to a debate on semantics. :rolleyes:

[Bilan]

yeah but i'm not in a position to lose my job either. I'm not well equipped for that at consequence at all.

I think thats more likely if they find out your socialist...

[MarxSchmarx]

just b/c they, presumably the gov't, asked you to sign it doesn't make it legal. Ask a solicitor if you're seriously, morally conflicted.

[Pogue]

Yeh, get legal advice.

[nuisance]

Of course lie if you're not prepared to leave the job. As if you admit you'll get fired and be on a activist database.

[politics student]

Lets be serious here any one involved in terrorist or planning terrorist acts are going to lie. A form will not help national security. :laugh:

[Dr Mindbender]

Lets be serious here any one involved in terrorist or planning terrorist acts are going to lie. A form will not help national security. :laugh:

my point is the british government thinks it can bully its workers into giving incriminating information about themselves.

Some workers may not have the resolve to feel they can lie for fear of being found out and possibly having to face worse consequences than redundancy.

Its a bad precedence because it shows they're attempting to silence dissenting voices.

[politics student]

my point is the british government thinks it can bully its workers into giving incriminating information about themselves.

Some workers may not have the resolve to feel they can lie for fear of being found out and possibly having to face worse consequences than redundancy.

Its a bad precedence because it shows they're attempting to silence dissenting voices.

If they get found out on a lie you will be arrested under the terrorist act without charge, your home and PC searched.

I find thats a pretty effective form of bullying to remove the people they do not want, we still have the anti trade union laws in place thanks to thatcher and lets not forget the temp worker situation removing further rights so any trade unionists will be fired for no reason with no defense. Its quite a depressing situation.

[communard resolution]

It's like when I went to the US, everybody had to fill in a form on the plane that asked "are you member of a terrorist organization or have you actively participated in the holocaust"? Do you think anyone was ever stupid enough to tick "yes"?

I imagine the point of this exercise is to intimidate employees: "if you're going to work with us, you better not give us any dissent." But I doubt they actually expect anyone to give them info on their revolutionary endeavours.

Lie about it. I can't imagine you're legally obliged to give them info on your political opinion.

[politics student]

It's like when I went to the US, everybody had to fill in a form on the plane that asked "are you member of a terrorist organization or have you actively participated in the holocaust"? Do you think anyone was ever stupid enough to tick "yes"?

I imagine the point of this exercise is to intimidate employees: "if you're going to work with us, you better not give us any dissent." But I doubt they actually expect anyone to give them info on their revolutionary endeavours.

Lie about it. I can't imagine you're legally obliged to give them info on your political opinion.

I recommend check legally, I doubt they are legally able to ask about political views job wise or at the very least make it mandatory.

I agree the only point is that its there to intimidate employees.

[Bilan]

Have you informed your union and asked them for advice?

[Dr Mindbender]

Have you informed your union and asked them for advice?

our union prescence is literally nil.

Such a large proportion of staff are on agency payrolls it makes it very difficult to unionise. The attitude of most people is ''if they treat me badly I'll just find another job'' (as if jobs grow on trees or something) Not to mention we cant take a shit without the ever vigilant management taking an interest. Literally, in some cases. Office politics is a very taboo subject.

:(

[politics student]

our union prescence is literally nil.

Such a large proportion of staff are on agency payrolls it makes it very difficult to unionise. The attitude of most people is ''if they treat me badly I'll just find another job'' (as if jobs grow on trees or something) Not to mention we cant take a shit without the ever vigilant management taking an interest. Literally, in some cases. Office politics is a very taboo subject.

:(

You also have to remember that many people have temp status which pretty much removes nearly all your workers rights when it comes to the issue of firing and working hours with no union chances to back you up.

I recently worked at a call center for a month and the agreement for temp work pretty much stated they can fire you for anything they feel like, you get made a permanent staff member after a year. I hated the job but I needed a bit of cash to keep me a float in my first year of uni which starts in around 2 months time.

[communard resolution]

If in doubt, you could also go to a Citizens Advice Bureau for free legal advice. Could take a few days until they give you an appointment, though, so act quick.

[STI]

Don't bother wasting your time on legal advice. Nobody will be standing on the other side of the barricades saying, "What are you doing?! You signed a form saying you're not a red menace!"

I recently signed an oath of allegiance to the Queen for a temp job I just started, doesn't mean a goddamn thing. I took one in scouts too. Just sign the stupid form and do whatever the hell you were going to do anyhow.

[Dimentio]

thought this might be an interesting read. It tells an interesting precedence for who is or isnt allowed to work for the british govt. As i work in the civil service i have been asked to complete a form which asks invasive questions about my previous political activism.

Surely there must be a human rights violation here somewhere? If i am candid it gives my boss information which in all likliehood they would use against me.

The content of the first page is thus:

''Statement of HM Government's vetting policy

In the interests of national security, safeguarding 'Parliamentary' democracy[sic] and mantaining the proper security of the Governments's essential activities, it is the policy of HMG that no one should be employed in connection with work the nature of which is vital to the interests of the state who:

*is, or has been, involved in, or associated with any of the following activities:

*espionage;

*terrorism;

*sabotage;

*actions intended to overthrow or undermine Parliamentary democracy by political, industrial or violent means; or

*is, or has recently been-

*a member of any organisation which has advocated such activites; or

*associated with any such organisation, or any of its members in such a way as to raise reasonable doubts about his or her reliability; or

(heres the real bullshit part)

*is susceptible to pressure or improper influence, for example because of current or past conduct; or

*has shown dishonesty or lack of integrity which throws doubt upon their reliability; or

*has demonstrated behaviour or is subject to curcumstances which may otherwise indicate unreliabilty... ''

I think what they are trying to do is create a political precedence in my workplace to weed out all potential 'troublemakers' in an effort to reduce strikes and political action. I think the past week at the passport office has ruffled their feathers a bit.

What do you think, should i lie on this form or what?

PS. If you call actively supporting revolution an act of advocating parliamentary overthrow if i deny anything i will be lying.

I am divided.

If I was in your position i would either outright lie, or answer "yes" on everything. Or just paint dinosaurs on the formula together with nonsense tautologies. I think I would have opt for the latter, and then get a long conversation with the employer. But with my charm, I would easily get out.

Dinosaurs...

[Dr Mindbender]

i'm probably just gonna lie. Its unlikely they'll bring me up about my past anyway and even if i was to seek advice i've only a couple of days left.

[cameron222]

i was going to say it but fen boy beat me to it. if you answer truthfully, you'll probly have trouble finding any kind of job with a background check after this.
lie to the suckers

[politics student]

Don't bother wasting your time on legal advice. Nobody will be standing on the other side of the barricades saying, "What are you doing?! You signed a form saying you're not a red menace!"

I recently signed an oath of allegiance to the Queen for a temp job I just started, doesn't mean a goddamn thing. I took one in scouts too. Just sign the stupid form and do whatever the hell you were going to do anyhow.

I could not sign an oath to the queen but I want a revolution I came to terms long ago that those parasites will be removed no other way.

I could lie on a form like this but an oath to the queen I would rip up and walk out, screw the job its not worth it.

But then again if I really needed the job I would.

[Dr Mindbender]

today i spoke to my local union rep.

She advised me that theyre only likely to pick up my activity if ive ever been arrested for political reasons (which i havent)

so i guess that kinda answers my question.

swish. :thumbup1:

[STI]

I could not sign an oath to the queen but I want a revolution I came to terms long ago that those parasites will be removed no other way.

I could lie on a form like this but an oath to the queen I would rip up and walk out, screw the job its not worth it.

But then again if I really needed the job I would.

If the oath is meaningless to the one taking it, who cares? I really don't understand the rationale behind not taking job simply because they require that you take an oath.

Also, glad to hear you're not in any real hot water US

[politics student]

If the oath is meaningless to the one taking it, who cares? I really don't understand the rationale behind not taking job simply because they require that you take an oath.

Also, glad to hear you're not in any real hot water US

The monarch is one of my pet hates, I will not sign an oath to the queen for anything unless I really need the job.

While it is meaningless I would still feel like I betrayed myself if I did sign it.

[Pogue]

I would not feel comfortable taking that oath either.

[politics student]

I would not feel comfortable taking that oath either.

I'm glad I am not the only one.

I could never become an MP in the current system because I would not take the oath. (I only found this fact out recently) Nice democracy we have in the UK :rolleyes:

[Celtic Leftist]

I'm glad I am not the only one.

I could never become an MP in the current system because I would not take the oath. (I only found this fact out recently) Nice democracy we have in the UK :rolleyes:

There are a few republican MPs who make a show of not believing in the oath (crossing there a fingers etc) as well as those in the Scottish Parliament who preface the oath with a sort of disclaimer. For example, Alex Salmond started his with "My sole duty is to the people of Scotland...":lol:

I get your point, though, but as we live in a constitutional monarchy then it is sort of expected.