Indie rock sucks

[MarxSchmarx]

I know a ton of people who insist they are into "indie rock", but I just don't get it. Frankly it all sounds the same. Sure there are probably highly technical differences like minor key/major key, chords, etc... but come on, what are they doing that wasn't done before like 20 years ago or more? I get the impression there's a reason other than the profit motive that these bands don't get signed by the major recording labels. And what the hell do they inspire people to do?

Explain to me in layman's terms why I am wrong.

[Red October]

I know a ton of people who insist they are into "indie rock", but I just don't get it. Frankly it all sounds the same. Sure there are probably highly technical differences like minor key/major key, chords, etc... but come on, what are they doing that wasn't done before like 20 years ago or more? I get the impression there's a reason other than the profit motive that these bands don't get signed by the major recording labels. And what the hell do they inspire people to do?

Explain to me in layman's terms why I am wrong.

It really depends. I listen to some indie music like Neutral Milk Hotel, Arcade Fire, and a few others. I also go to a lot of local indie shows because my friends go or are in the bands, and I'm not a huge fan of that. Generally they're good musicians and good at what they do, but I'm just not into indie music.

[Pirate Utopian]

It's not very intresting to me either. Although I like these garage rock revivalists like The Black Keys and The White Stripes who are described as indie.

[RedAnarchist]

Which bands are considered indie? Can anyone give some examples?

[Lector Malibu]

Which bands are considered indie? Can anyone give some examples?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiQI-_Ajcf0

You might recognize the song called "Perfect Timing " by Orba Squara

My favorite indie rock band.

[mykittyhasaboner]

A lot of what is described as "indie" is post punk, garage, electronic and dance rock revival.

a few of examples i like:
White Light Parade -Riot in the city

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty2fXitH3JI

Whitey-Wrap it up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbJ48Q1FF0w&feature=related

Interpol-Evil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_OcR0fbf6g&feature=related

[Malakangga]

In my country Indie Rocks was great

[Lector Malibu]

and.....Snowden anti anti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mXBco65t4g

[mykittyhasaboner]

^^wow, they're really good. thanks

[Lector Malibu]

^^wow, they're really good. thanks


Snowdens really good. Check out The Concretes song called "Kids"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcuuw-QAHDs

[Bright Banana Beard]

Did not enjoy those song. :(

[Lector Malibu]

Did not enjoy those song. :(

Try these guys out. The Deadly Deaths "Bury It"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhQDq8P1CQ

[Bilan]

I like indie Rock.
Infact, I'm listening to some right now - Oh No! Oh My!
They're cute. :blushing:

Really, it doesn't matter. It doesn't all sound the same (Maybe your tone deaf?). A lot of commerical bands sounds very similar. But try and find a genre not like that.
Commercialism kills music; it destroys individuality.

You'd probably like some indie rock and pop if you really searched for it.

Take it from an exhardcore punk. :lol:

[RHIZOMES]

I dislike most indie, and I find people that say they listen to predominantly "indie" tend to be pretentious fucks. But there is a lot of good stuff.

[communard resolution]

To me, 'Indie' is mostly synonymous with diluted versions of genres that have gone before, as in: rock that doesn't rock, punk without punk attitude, funk that isn't funky in the least, apologetic pop that desperately tries to be clever, etc.

I'd really rather listen to Britney Spears than another whiney, polite indie band. At least her songs sound unapologetic and proud of what they are.

Indie tends to be used as an umbrella term for many different things these days, so maybe I shouldn't judge it as if it were a homogenous genre. Then again, I think there is an 'indie attitude' (= no attitude), and that common denominator is what I abhor.

[Lector Malibu]

Why you gotta be like that?:lol:

There's snotty stuck up kids everywhere not just in the land of Indie. I was actually enjoying the music discussion till scene master Nero came and decided urinate all over it :lol:

[communard resolution]

Sorry Flower Eater, I didn't mean to rain on your parade.:blushing:

I'll shut up now.

[Bilan]

To me, 'Indie' is mostly synonymous with diluted versions of genres that have gone before, as in: rock that doesn't rock, punk without punk attitude, funk that isn't funky in the least, apologetic pop that desperately tries to be clever, etc.

I'd really rather listen to Britney Spears than another whiney, polite indie band. At least her songs sound unapologetic and proud of what they are.

Indie tends to be used as an umbrella term for many different things these days, so maybe I shouldn't judge it as if it were a homogenous genre. Then again, I think there is an 'indie attitude' (= no attitude), and that common denominator is what I abhor.

Bunk I say

[Lector Malibu]

Sorry Flower Eater, I didn't mean to rain on your parade.:blushing:

I'll shut up now.


Thing is in every scene you're gonna find that. I will agree in the emo/indie scene it is more pronounced really though I'm just in it for the music. For years I listened to nothing but one set type of music and I've broken outta that so alot of this stuff is really refreshing to me. Come on Nero , "Brittney Spears??":lol::lol:

[Lector Malibu]

Odie but goodie Hot Hot Heat "Goodnight"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFjMnUywk8A

[communard resolution]

Thing is in every scene you're gonna find that. I will agree in the emo/indie scene it is more pronounced really though I'm just in it for the music. For years I listened to nothing but one set type of music and I've broken outta that so alot of this stuff is really refreshing to me. Come on Nero , "Brittney Spears??":lol::lol:

What? Britney's got some good tunes. So does Christina Aguilera!

[communard resolution]

Bunk I say

No. It's the truth and nothing but.

[Lector Malibu]

What? Britney's got some good tunes. So does Christina Aguilera!

Take that back ....

[communard resolution]

(sings)

Oh baby, baby
Oh baby, baby
Oh baby, baby
How was I supposed to know
That something wasn't right here
Oh baby baby
I shouldn't have let you go
And now you're out of sight, yeah
Show me, how you want it to be
Tell me baby
'Cause I need to know now what we've got


My loneliness is killing me
I must confess, I still believe
When I'm not with you I lose my mind
Give me a sign
Hit me baby one more time!

[Lector Malibu]

What??? I can't hear U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M12tGdpfcuk

[Pirate Utopian]

To me, 'Indie' is mostly synonymous with diluted versions of genres that have gone before, as in: rock that doesn't rock, punk without punk attitude, funk that isn't funky in the least, apologetic pop that desperately tries to be clever, etc.

I'd really rather listen to Britney Spears than another whiney, polite indie band. At least her songs sound unapologetic and proud of what they are.

Indie tends to be used as an umbrella term for many different things these days, so maybe I shouldn't judge it as if it were a homogenous genre. Then again, I think there is an 'indie attitude' (= no attitude), and that common denominator is what I abhor.
This is pretty acurate.

[INDK]

Indie's the kind of genre where I'm not centered around it at all, but I do like a couple bands in the genre. Hot Hot Heat, Arcade Fire, Interpol, and the White Stripes are great. :)

[Invader Zim]

ANyone who says all Indie sounds the same is deaf. Bands like the Smiths sound totally different to bands like Arcade Fire.

[mykittyhasaboner]

some more songs for the Indie haters to enjoy. :p
Tom Vek - one horse race
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv4HemhMHbA&feature=related

K-O's - Born to Run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdZsUkYGq5k&feature=related

[Lector Malibu]

Kitty I could kiss you:lol: K-O's song was badass!

[mykittyhasaboner]

Kitty I could kiss you:lol: K-O's song was badass!
lol thanks, it is a very good song.

[INDK]

ANyone who says all Indie sounds the same is deaf. Bands like the Smiths sound totally different to bands like Arcade Fire.

I second that. I don't exactly like it much, but the starter of this thread may not have listened to the right bands. Indie's actually rather diverse.

[Lector Malibu]

This one's For Nero!!!:lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UkZzBaQDek

[Bilan]

No. It's the truth and nothing but.


Nonsense!

There are many great Indie bands. Many.

It is rock without the cock (sometimes); Punk without the junk; Funk with a hint of crunk(in).

I call shenanigans, once again.

[spartan]

I like some indie bands though mostly indie influenced genres like alternative rock and madchester.

Indie has had major influences on genres such as grunge, alternative rock, britpop and madchester amongst others so give it more credit.

Here is some Stone Roses for the uninitiated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4bHMVAKDao

If you dont like this then i am afraid that you are a Fascist.

[Lector Malibu]

Nice one Spartan! And I'll add Ghostwood~Red Version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKxSv2EwcEI

[communard resolution]

This one's For Nero!!!:lol:

_UkZzBaQDek

This one's actually quite enjoyable, but I wouldn't call it indie. It's more like electro/new wave, which is cool with me.

Maybe it's a matter of definition then?

To me, Indie usually means 4 boring, shaggy-haired English middle-class boys with guitars trying to sound like Joy Division, The Smiths, Oasis, or the Liberines.

Or 4 boring American middle-class boys with guitars trying to sound like The Strokes.

Or 4 boring American middle-class boys with guitars trying to sound like 4 boring English middle-class boys with guitars trying to sound like Joy Division, The Smiths, Oasis, or The Libertines (--> The Killers and Interpol for example).

[communard resolution]

If you dont like this then i am afraid that you are a Fascist.

I actually like the Stone Roses ok (at least they had personality and knew how to write songs), but I'd rather be a Fascist than listen to the legions of their imitators.

[communard resolution]

It is rock without the cock (sometimes); Punk without the junk; Funk with a hint of crunk(in).


Most of it is sterile shit.

[Bilan]

This one's actually quite enjoyable, but I wouldn't call it indie. It's more like electro/new wave, which is cool with me.

Maybe it's a matter of definition then?

To me, Indie usually means 4 boring, shaggy-haired English middle-class boys with guitars trying to sound like Joy Division, The Smiths, Oasis, or the Liberines.

Or 4 boring American middle-class boys with guitars trying to sound like The Strokes.

Or 4 boring American middle-class boys with guitars trying to sound like 4 boring English middle-class boys with guitars trying to sound like Joy Division, The Smiths, Oasis, or The Libertines (--> The Killers and Interpol for example).

Interpol are awesome, the Killers are shit house.
The Smiths and Joy Division are amazing.
Oasis and the Libertines are meh.

[Bilan]

Most of it is sterile shit.

You've listened to that much Indie to be able to make that claim?

Are you sure about that?

[Pirate Utopian]

I dont think Nero is dissing those bands I think he's dissing those that try to be like them.
Joy Division is great.
I agree with everything Nero said so far.

Also The Stone Roses had some good songs like Fools Gold but I didnt care for their second album.

[Faction2008]

I agree that most of it sounds the same. There are only a few good bands.

[Lector Malibu]

Nero sooo untrue.

[Faction2008]

Nero sooo untrue.
Listen to ten indie bands and they all sound pretty similar.

[Bilan]

Listen to ten indie bands and they all sound pretty similar.

Thats just rubbish.

I'll give you some, then report back.

- The Smiths
- Joy Division
- Mirah
- Oh no! Oh my!
- Over the Atlantic
- Black Kids
- Sonic Youth
- The Shins
- Shipping News

If you tell me those all sound the same you are just tone deaf. Period.

[Lector Malibu]

'
Listen to ten indie bands and they all sound pretty similar.


What Black and Red said. I've listened to ten Indie bands :lol: I'm telling you Indie (or independent) covers alot of territory , not just one set sound like Ska or Metal

Speaking of The Smiths and Indie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGnjrTkv1gs

[Faction2008]

Thats just rubbish.

I'll give you some, then report back.

- The Smiths
- Joy Division
- Mirah
- Oh no! Oh my!
- Over the Atlantic
- Black Kids
- Sonic Youth
- The Shins
- Shipping News

If you tell me those all sound the same you are just tone deaf. Period.
I briefly watched T4 on the beach when it was on and all these random unheard of bands all sounded almost all the same. I'm not saying it's all the same but the majority of it try to copy the well known bands.


, not just one set sound like Ska or Metal
I suppose I agree with this, Metal does some pretty similar but there is the odd song that is mixed with another genre. But yeah it I see what you mean.

[Sam_b]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XC2mqcMMGQ


Vampire Weekend = WIN

[communard resolution]

You've listened to that much Indie to be able to make that claim?

Are you sure about that?

Well, firstly it's just an opinion rather than a claim, and obviously I mean "most of what I've heard". But boy, I did hear a lot. Indie is the mainstream where I live.

As Pirate Utopian correctly pointed out, I'm not dissing Joy Division etc, but the 198,500,234 bands that sound just like them. Where I live you can't escape it. Half of the bands you get to see live (bars, unsigned band nights and such) will be a bunch of boring students trying their luck at being Joy Division, The Smiths, Oasis, or the Libertines. Plus they always sound like they're whining about their parents having cut off their pocket money.

Maybe it's a matter of getting things shoved down my throat too much, or maybe I just find Indie music really lame. Give me punk, give me electro, give me reggaeton, metal, soul, funk, even country and fucking western... anything, just not another indie band. :D

[Sam_b]

I think how you're citing Joy Division, The Smiths and The Libertines into one specific genre shows that indie is not a real genre.

And Joy Division are post-punk, anyway ;). Go on, give me some of the bands that sounds just like em', I dares ya.

[communard resolution]

I think how you're citing Joy Division, The Smiths and The Libertines into one specific genre shows that indie is not a real genre.It isn't, and I've said that before: it's an umbrella term for a variety of styles, but I do think that the indie kids who imitate these bands have a certain 'indie attitude' in common, which is one of being lame, whiney, and begging you to like them all at the same time. Sorry, I can't find any better words to describe indie attitude right now.


And Joy Division are post-punk, anyway ;). Go on, give me some of the bands that sounds just like em', I dares ya.Well, last time I checked Interpol sounded exactly like them, but maybe they've changed their schtick since? Off the top of my head I can also think of The Editors and The Others, and then of course there's hundreds of less known bands whose names I don't memorize.

Again, I like Joy Division. They were a highly original band who went against the grain in their day... which is more than you can say about the average indie combo.

[communard resolution]

I agree with everything Nero said so far.



Even the Britney Spears bit? If so, I've found a soulmate. :)

[Sam_b]

I have no idea about how The Others sound like Joy Division. Still a great band though.

[Pirate Utopian]

Even the Britney Spears bit? If so, I've found a soulmate. :)
Hey atleast you didnt say ABBA or something like that. :lol:
Although it does have more life than alot of indie I heard.

Also to the people that say Sonic Youth is indie. They were no wave and later they became noise-rock, too cool for the indie-school.

[Lector Malibu]

Come on Nero this is quality stuff . Plastic Operator~ Folder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX6rzEX3CK0

[communard resolution]

I have no idea about how The Others sound like Joy Division. Still a great band though.

Dude, you must be joking. Carbon copy bass lines, carbon copy guitar parts, carbon copy drums... carbon copy everything. Except the singer isn't blessed with a voice like Ian Curtis's, which is why he's just mumbling away with affected pretend boredom. I saw them live once when I went to an unsigned band night. A month later they were signed, and I wondered "why them, out of a million that sound just like that?"

Look, it's a matter of taste... I just don't like indie, that's all. Doesn't mean I would have The Others thrown in the gulag or anything. ;)

[communard resolution]

Also to the people that say Sonic Youth is indie. They were no wave and later they became noise-rock, too cool for the indie-school.

Yeah, Sonic Youth weren't harmless enough for indie.

[Lector Malibu]

Yeah, Sonic Youth weren't harmless enough for indie.

You listen to Ben Folds don't you?:lol:

[Sam_b]

Dude, you must be joking. Carbon copy bass lines, carbon copy guitar parts, carbon copy drums... carbon copy everything

Ruuuuuuuuuuuuubbbbbbbbbbbiiiiiiiiiissssssssssshhhh hhhhhh!

If I said to metal fans that all metal bands sounded like either Lamb of God or Sepultura everyone would say I was speaking shite. This is exactly the same thing.

[Sam_b]

Death Cab For Cutie - Company Calls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_iIWk69MMI

[communard resolution]

You listen to Ben Folds don't you?:lol:

Slander! Don't believe this man.

[Lector Malibu]

Slander! Don't believe this man.

I knew it! You're one of those Ben Folds Five fans:lol:

Each to there own I guess and Coldwar kids ~ Hospital Beds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyhkQzPLjcA

[mykittyhasaboner]

more indie!!! and who knows? maybe Nero will like some of these guys. :thumbup::tt2:
Digitalism - Pogo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bQTVN2aAUw
CAMP - From Extremely Far Away
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lACphA_MHQ4
Babamars - The Core
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CBX0kzXiac
The Unicorns - Les Os
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R78zalu07Hc&feature=related

[Lector Malibu]

Ferraby Lionheart~Small Planet by request from Nero :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkcZZDEZzgY

[RHIZOMES]

ANyone who says all Indie sounds the same is deaf. Bands like the Smiths sound totally different to bands like Arcade Fire.

And that's the thing, "indie" is not a real genre. How is Elliott Smith anything like Franz Ferdinand? "Indie" is nothing but a hopelessly vague buzzword. Not saying indie is shit, there's a lot of good bands of several different genres labelled "indie" which I like.

[Invader Zim]

I think how you're citing Joy Division, The Smiths and The Libertines into one specific genre shows that indie is not a real genre.

And Joy Division are post-punk, anyway ;). Go on, give me some of the bands that sounds just like em', I dares ya.

You philistines don't know what the hell you are blabbering on about.

On the contrary Joy Division are 'Indie', in that they were signed to an independant record label, 'Indie' is a reference to the record label they are signed to and helped pioneer the post-punk sound that many alternative rock bands, signed to independent record labels made in the late 70s and 80s (in other words, 'Indie Rock' bands). Joy Division were signed to Factory Records, which is now considered one of the vintage 'Indie' labels, a label which has carried bands such as James, Happy Mondays, The Wake, etc. It is a label as synonanous with classic 'Indie Rock' bands as, say, Rough Trade (who also signed James, and bands such as the Smiths) is.

As a genre, 'Indie Rock' has come to represent the sound of the alternative rock bands, signed to small record labels in the 1980s, and the various genres, sounds and bands which have spawned from that, including genres as diverse as twee, post-rock and madchester. As a genre it is extremely loosely defined in terms of its scope as it invariably must be as it began as simply being any alternative rock on an independent record label, and people who criticise it, largely don't understand that or even what it is and what kind of bands people talk about when they use the term 'indie'.

Now fuck off you vile, uncultured, heathens.

[communard resolution]

You philistines don't know what the hell you are blabbering on about.

On the contrary Joy Division are 'Indie', 'Indie' is a reference to the record label they are signed to. Joy Division were signed to Factory Records, which is bnow considered one of the vintage 'Indie' labels, a label which has carried bands such as James, Happy Mondays, The Wake, etc. It is a label as synonanous with classic Indie bands as, say, Rough Trade (who also signed James).

As a genre, 'Indie Rock' has come to represent the sound of the alternative rock bands, signed to small record labels in the 1980s, and the various genres, sounds and bands which have spawned from that, including genres as diverse as twee, post-rock and madchester.



You're about 20 years behind, my friend. Your definition of 'indie' would have cut it in the 80s when the term was indeed referring to any music after punk that was released on independent records labels. Factory was one of the earliest independent labels, although the Buzzcocks' Spiral Scratch seven inch was probably the first independently released punk record.

However, as with the rise of Britpop and Grunge/Alt-Rock, 'indie' music became part of the mainstream in the 90s, the term is now applied to a certain aesthetic and a set of music styles whose influences ultimately go back to punk and post-punk, yet represent a milder form of both. So it doesn't really matter whether a band like Interpol are currently signed with a major or an independent label, they are still an indie band. A crust punk band, for instance, may be signed with an 'indie' label, but they would never be termed 'indie'.

Pirate Utopion is right, Joy Division are a post punk band.


Now fuck off you vile, uncultured, heathens.Always nice to debate with someone as cultured as yourself.

[Invader Zim]

You're about 20 years behind, my friend.Not so. As I said, "As a genre, 'Indie Rock' has come to represent the sound of the alternative rock bands, signed to small record labels in the 1980s, and the various genres, sounds and bands which have spawned from that, including genres as diverse as twee, post-rock and madchester."

Which you may as well have repeated when you stated: -

"However, as with the rise of Britpop and Grunge/Alt-Rock, 'indie' music became part of the mainstream in the 90s, the term is now applied to a certain aesthetic and a set of music styles whose influences ultimately go back to punk and post-punk, yet represent a milder form of both."

And, as such, this: "So it doesn't really matter whether a band like Interpol are currently signed with a major or an independent label, they are still an indie band. A crust punk band, for instance, may be signed with an 'indie' label, but they would never be termed 'indie'.", in no way contradicts what I said, which is that modern Indie has come to represent the sound spawned by the 80s alt-rock scene on independent labels.

However you are wrong in insisting that record label is irrelevent, bands like the Manic Street Preachers are not, and haven't, been classified as Indie sinse they left Damaged Goods and signed to Columbia, despite being comparable to the rest of the brit-pop scene, especially from 1996 onwards. And most of the Brit-pop acts of the 90s, were 'Indie' in the sense that they were on Indie labels, or traditional Indie labels which had been bought out. Oasis, the defining Brit-pop acts, for example, were on Creation during the Brit-pop era. That is why brit-pop is dubbed Indie, because, for the most part, it was and in the traditional sense. The bands were on indie labels and toured the Indie circuit, and were reviewed in the Indie music press.


Pirate Utopion is right, Joy Division are a post punk band.So were the Smiths, would you argue that they weren't Indie?

[Invader Zim]

For anyone who thinks Indie all sounds the same: -

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VwhHdeHJ1Yk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o4XOlPvxrVs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_9GiLnZyUgM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yx6dHmYD6c8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aX1PwkgwsG0

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6uo2WLQ2LVA

[communard resolution]

However you are wrong in insisting that record label is irrelevent, bands like the Manic Street Preachers are not, and haven't, been classified as Indie sinse they left Damaged Goods and signed to Columbia, despite being comparable to the rest of the brit-pop scene, especially from 1996 onwards. I'm convinced most people would classify Manic Street Preachers as indie, simply because they were hyped by the NME, worshipped by typical NME indie kids, and because they had a lot in common with other indie bands as you yourself pointed out.

Fans of indie music don't look at the record label in order to determine whether a band is indie and therefore interesting to them - it's the music, the image, and -for lack of a better word- the 'vibe' that connotes to them whether a band is indie or not. A Manics fan will listen to a lot of other indie bands and classify the Manics as part of that milieu rather than listen to other bands that are signed with Columbia.

But this is nitpicking. There's obviously no definition of indie that everybody would agree on, although I would think that since the 90s the term has been commonly used to describe a loose yet not unlimited range of music styles and aesthetics.

So, for example, if you see a band of 4 skinny white British public school boys with shaggy hair pouting at you from the cover of the NME, which says "the best British band since the Kaiser Chiefs", then everybody will think of that band as 'indie' regardless whether one of their daddies got them signed with Columbia because he owns the label or not.
It doesn't matter whether Invader Zim doesn't think of them as strictly indie because it's the masses of "uncultured philistines" who decide what a word means through the way they use it.


So were the Smiths, would you argue that they weren't Indie?No, I would argue they weren't post-punk... unless post-punk simply means "after punk". There's precious little punk influence in The Smiths, just as there's no avant-garde, krautrock, funk, proto-punk, industrial, or electronica influences - which are the influences that most of the bands we think of as post-punk today were informed by.

Back in the day, post punk may well have meant 'after punk' (although I doubt the Smiths were called post punk even then), but same as with indie, today the term is used to describe a set of music styles. The Smiths were musically not adventurous enough, too much of a conservative 60s combo to cut it as 'post punk'.

I totally agree with the Smiths being 'indie', in both senses of the word. Jangly, introspective guitar music with a slightly whiny singer, musically not too radical in any way, singed with an independent label.

I would argue that 'indie' as a music style started around The Cure's 'Boys Don't Cry'.

[Invader Zim]

I'm convinced most people would classify Manic Street Preachers as indieTo put it simply, you are mistaken. While they maybe spoken about in the same breath as their Indie contemporaries of the Brit-pop era, few who know anything about the scene would argue that they are Indie. Indeed, based on your bizarre and ultra-loose definition, you can pretty much include any alternative rock-band.



Fans of indie music don't look at the record label in order to determine whether a band is indie and therefore interesting to them - it's the music, the image, and -for lack of a better word- the 'vibe' that connotes to them whether a band is indie or not.Why? Just because they were popular at the same time, and made alternative rock music you argue that people couldn't see both a difference in both ethos and ethic? I can tell you don't like Indie, you know very little about it or its fans.

Furthermore you seem to be confused regarding the Brit-pop style. The Brit-pop scene saw multiple different styles (not just one), from the black leather of Suede and Justine Frischmann, the bighter than bright lime green shirt of Jarvis Cocker and the band-tshirts of Blur, and of course Union Jack.

So in that case, in terms of style despite being hugely varied, the manics most certainly were not Indie. Their look, which changed repeatedly, started more like a 70/80s glam act, before turning into a militaristic punk look during the period when Britpop was at its height, and never gained the look bands such as Blur, Suede, etc were touting. The only time they looked even remotely like the rest of the Brit-pop scene, and still without the Union Jacks and bright colours, was in 1996-8 when the scene drew to a close. It was also the point, after the scene had come to its end, that the Manics started getting number one singles in the charts.

When Brit-pop was at its height the Manics were making songs such as this: -

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3hMqpR9AogI&feature=related

Not exactly looking, or sounding, like Jarvis Cocker.

While you may confuse them with Indie, simply because they played rock music and were popular at the same time, doesn't mean everyone else around in that period did.


No, I would argue they weren't post punkWell, again you would be mistaken. The Smiths biggest influences, according to Morrisey, and you can hear it in their music, are bands such as the New York Dolls. Hell half of the Smiths had been in punk bands prior to joining the Smiths.

[communard resolution]

To put it simply, you are mistaken. No, I am not. But obviously neither of us can prove they're right unless we conduct a survey to determine how many people think of the Manics as an indie band and how many do not.


While they maybe spoken about in the same breath as their Indie contemporaries of the Brit-pop era, few who know anything about the scene would argue that they are Indie. A baseless assumption deriving from an elitist attitude: those who agree with me are the ones who 'know', the rest are 'uncultured philistines' who don't. Who are the people who "know anything about the scene"? You and everybody who read The Last Party? Or everybody who was buying a vile rag called NME at the time? Or only the people who were 'getting plastered' and 'snorting charlie' - cheers, mate - off the toilet seat at The Good Mixer in the mid-late 90s?

Again, it makes no difference whether a few self-proclaimed beholders of the truth who think they "know about the scene" consider something to be indie or not. What matters is how the term is commonly applied.


I can tell you don't like Indie, you know very little about it or its fans.Trust me, I've been surrounded by Indie and its fans for so long I know enough about it to be able to form an opinion. There's no way to escape a mainstream culture such as indie anyway, especially not when you spend more time of your life on the music scene than the average person.

You mention that the Manics were too Guns N'Roses to be indie (at least in the beginning), but I think that first album is a pretty good example for how indie often works: it takes a few empty formalisms from "rough and ready" music styles such as punk (or sleaze metal in this case), strips the music of everything that made it dangerous in the first place, and the end result is "easy listening punk/rock as played by shaggy-haired indie boys who don't really want to offend anybody."

[EDIT: Britpop might have added the kind of arrogance that British middle-class teenagers can easily relate to, having been told by their parents how 'special' they are all their lives.]

When I suggested The Cure's 'Boys Don't Cry' was roughly the beginning of 'indie', that's what I was referring to: early Indie bands took on board the simplicity of punk, but stripped it off the shock value (Sex Pistols), the radical politics (The Clash), the relentlessness (Ramones), the vulgarity, etc... in short, they stripped it of everything that made punk in any way interesting to begin with. What was left was an easy-to-consume, very white, very studenty, very self-obsessed type of rock music, and that's largely the way it still is today. In a time when the white male cultural hegemony seems under attack by various cross-cultural phenomena, what could be more comforting than to listen to a music that is so unmistakably British and white?

Post-punk is an entirely different animal altogether: these bands went the other way because they thought of punk as too traditional, too old-fashioned, too safe. They picked up on the more experimental end of proto-punk as well as other more avant currents, sometimes black music (funk, reggae, african styles), and took everything further to the edge. The Smiths have nothing to do with that at all.


Well, again you would be mistaken. The Smiths biggest influences, according to Morrisey, and you can hear it in their music, are bands such as the New York Dolls. Hell half of the Smiths had been in punk bands prior to joining the Smiths.Excuse me Sir, have you actually ever heard the New York Dolls, or have you just seen the pictures with all the gaudy make-up and stuff?
Morissey was a massive fan of the New York Dolls when he was a teenager and was influenced by their 'queer' aesthetics, but as far as music the Smiths weren't influenced by the Dolls in the least. Nothing the Smiths ever played was related to anything the Dolls ever did, and you're speaking to the biggest Dolls fan on the planet. I do know their records.

And anyway, your claim was that the Smiths were a 'post-punk' band. What on earth does post-punk have to do with the New York Dolls?

[Invader Zim]

No, I am not. But obviously neither of us can prove they're right unless we conduct a survey to determine how many people think of the Manics as an indie band and how many do not.I, however, am a fan of both and socialise with many people who have similar tastes and unsupprisingly they are well aware of the difference.


A baseless assumption deriving from an elitist attitude If it is elistist to point out that you are talking utter bollocks, then guilty as charged.


those who agree with me are the ones who 'know', the rest are 'uncultured philistines' who don't.The uncultured philistines gibe was tongue-in-cheek.


Who are the people who "know anything about the scene"? You and everybody who read The Last Party? Or everybody who was buying a vile rag called NME at the time? Or only the people who were 'getting plastered' and 'snorting charlie' - cheers, mate - off the toilet seat at The Good Mixer in the mid-late 90s?Well lets put it this way, clearly not somebody who thinks that the Manic Street Preachers are Indie.


I've been surrounded by Indie and its fans for so long I know enough about it to be able to form an opinion.Opinions are like arseholes, everyones got one.



You mention that the Manics were too Guns N'Roses to be indie (at least in the beginning), but I think that first album is a pretty good example for how indie often works: it takes a few empty formalisms from "rough and ready" music styles such as punk (or sleaze metal in this case), strips the music of everything that made it dangerous in the first place, and the end result is "easy listening punk/rock as played by shaggy-haired indie boys who don't really want to offend anybody."Firstly, the Manics rhetoric was revolutionary (in the political sense), offensive and a rebellion against the music scene of the early 90s. Indeed you seem to have this view of Indie lodged in your mind, and see it as a purely poppy affair of bands such as the Klaxons and the Arctic Monkeys, and seemingly paint the entire Indie scene with this brush, and include bands (such as the Manics), who were always at least arms length from the 90s Indie scene with this same brush.

Secondly, albums such as The Holy Bible are anything but easy listening. It is one of those albums largely ignored when it came out, but has gained its reputation and status as a classic album subsequently.


but stripped it off the shock value (Sex Pistols), the radical politics (The Clash), the relentlessness (Ramones), the vulgarity, etc...But just in that sense, there are Indie bands who contain all of those various 'qualities'. Just because you seemingly have investigated Indie from no closer than the occassional infilitration of Indie bands onto the stage of Top of the Pops and MTV, doesn't mean that they do not exist. Indeed every genre of music contains bands who harbour those elements.


Post-punk is something entirely different altogether:Considering that you don't think that the Smiths are a Post-Punk band, I don't place a great deal of stock by your opinion.


Excuse me Sir, have you actually ever heard the New York Dolls,Probably more than you. But, you have shown a fine piece of inconsistancy here, you were labouring upon the point that image is part of 'indie', yet in the act of attempting to deny the influence of the New York Dolls upon the Smiths you allude to stylistic influence.


And anyway, your claim was that the Smiths were a 'post-punk' band. What on earth does post-punk have to do with the New York Dolls?The New York Dolls are a definative example of a proto-punk band, and indeed the bizarre term 'glampunk' has pretty much been constructed in their honour. The point was, in addition to the fact that members of the Smiths were punk, and derived a great deal of influence from Punk which you can hear in their music, derived a great deal from punk even when it was at its most embryonic of stages. You can also hear the influence of the Smiths post-punk contemporaries, in their music, and they were criticised early on for sound too like Echo and the Bunnymen.

I am also sure that Morrisey's adulation went beyond their "their 'queer' aesthetics", having written a book about them.

[Pogue]

I hate the music, it all sounds the same to me.

[Lector Malibu]

Yikes! I remember when that Smiths video premiered on MTV....

[communard resolution]

Just because you seemingly have investigated Indie from no closer than the occassional infilitration of Indie bands onto the stage of Top of the Pops and MTV, doesn't mean that they do not exist.These band do exist, but they are the exception in a sea of harmless, gutless indie drivel, not the rule. I don't watch MTV, I watch live bands on an almost daily basis, many of which unfortunately happen to be indie.

You can listen to your whitebread student music and think of it as post-punk all you want if it makes you happy. Just stop being such a pompous twat who acts like everybody who dislikes Indie must be absolutely ignorant of music history. It's not like Indie is the most obscure thing in the world - everybody and their dog listen to it.


Considering that you don't think that the Smiths are a Post-Punk band, I don't place a great deal of stock by your opinion.Neither do I in yours since 'post-punk' is a term that refers to a cluster of bands inspired by punk yet more experimental and looking beyond traditional rock formats: PIL, Gang of Four, The Pop Group, The Auteurs, etc.

The Smiths have none of that experimental 'leaving rock behind' edge, their music is actually even more conventional than punk itself. The fact that they formed in the early 80s and that some of their members may have been punks doesn't make them more 'post-punk' than Simply Red, whose vocalist Mick Hucknell had originally been a punk singer.


The New York Dolls are a definative example of a proto-punk band, and indeed the bizarre term 'glampunk' has pretty much been constructed in their honour. Yes, the Dolls are considered a proto-punk band because of their influence upon punk. Yes, the term glampunk has been coined to describe them. However, that wouldn't make the Smiths more of a 'post-punk' band than the Sex Pistols, Guns N'Roses, D-Generation, Motley Crue, Red Kross, The Cramps, Rachel Stamp, or GG Allin, all of whom were influenced by the NY Dolls. Even if we assume for the sake of debate that The Smiths were musically influenced by the New York Dolls -a proto-punk band that basically played amped-up Chuck Berry rock'n'roll- it's beyond me how that makes The Smiths a 'post-punk' band. You're not making any sense at all.

Post-punk bands were bands whose ethos was to explore new ground, as opposed to musically conventional, jangly pop-rock combos whose lead singer had a teenage obsession with David Johansen.

[Pirate Utopian]

Post-punk is far superior over indie rock.

Although indie does take after PiL's Fodderstompf a little...

"Be bland
Be dull
Be boring
Be really, really, y’know nothing a void, zilch, zero, nought, nothing, vacuum"

[communard resolution]

Post-punk is far superior over indie rock.

Although indie does take after PiL's Fodderstompf a little...

"Be bland
Be dull
Be boring
Be really, really, y’know nothing a void, zilch, zero, nought, nothing, vacuum"


See, if my name were John Lydon it would only take me a few well-chosen words -as opposed to several posts- to sum it all up. :thumbup:

[Sam_b]

Anyway, I agree that the term 'indie' is now nothing more than a silly catch-all term and has no basis in the history of independant music as we know it. But anyway, it doesn't matter that much.

So have some Beat Happening:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SbVkW1EA_bY&feature=related

[Lector Malibu]

Nero and Utopia I find it humorous that you guys are using such a generic argument to dismiss Independent music. Everybody uses that argument when they don't like scene "Oh it's full of rich pretentious snobs" :lol: Simple fact is Indie is not really a set sound , as I said previous. The term Indie implies non mainstream independent label. It incorporates alot of sounds and territory. To say I don't like Indie is to say I like corporate sponsored bands of a set "stlye" plain and simple. Whose more boring?

[communard resolution]

Nero and Utopia I find it humorous that you guys are using such a generic argument to dismiss Independent music. Everybody uses that argument when they don't like scene
"Oh it's full of rich pretentious snobs" :lol: Simple fact is Indie is not really a set sound , as I said previous. The term Indie implies non mainstream independent label. It incorporates alot of sounds and territory. To say I don't like Indie is to say I like corporate sponsored bands of a set "stlye" plian and simple. Whose more boring?

Well, our point is that your definition (music on non mainstream independent label) is the original 80s definition, but today we think more of a fairly narrow set of music styles and visuals as well as a particular 'vibe' when we say indie.

As for 'mainstream', indie is part of the mainstream. It's the biggest, most popular music among white middle-class students.

As for 'corporate', I really couldn't care less whether it's a small-time capitalist (independent label) or a big-time capitalist (corporate label) putting out the music. Some of my fave bands like The Clash were signed with majors, so what?

I didn't say you were boring and I don't think you are, even though you listen to indie. :) In fact, I always enjoy debating with you. It's all a matter of taste and really not that important. As for "pretentious snobs", I think Invader Zim is a pretty good example, but the majority of indie kids on here are cool. It's fun arguing over banal things such as music taste, isn't it?

I like Ladytron. Is that indie or not? (I think it's electro-pop?)

[Pirate Utopian]

Yes your right if people dont like the dull sounding shite by bands like The Kaiser Chiefs they must per definition be into 50 Cent or the Pussy Cat Dolls. /bullshit

Thing is I dont have to accept this music as the new alternative to corporate rock.
I want something that is lively, edgy and brings something new to the table not this snooze-rock that is hardly alternative to begin with (MTV-coverage all the time).
Why should I care about either 50 Cent or The Kaiser Chiefs if they are both no fun?, pop-nihilism ftw!

[Lector Malibu]

Well, our point is that your definition (music on non mainstream independent label) is the original 80s definition, but today we think more of a fairly narrow set of music styles and visuals as well as a particular 'vibe' when we say indie.

It's because I hail from the 80's :lol: Maybe I'm out dated :lol:. Well I will agree that the popular Indie of today is almost more like a "common sound" I guess. However regardless there is some quality stuff , actually most of the videos that have been pasted here on this thread are really good , and not only do I like the music but the incorporation of different art mediums into the videos are really cool. That GhostWood video is amazing , and so untypical of a video you would see on MTV these days.


As for 'mainstream', indie is part of the mainstream. It's the biggest, most popular music among white middle-class students.It's popular. I'll give you that.


As for 'corporate', I really couldn't care less whether it's a small-time capitalist (independent label) or a big-time capitalist (corporate label) putting out the music. Some of my fave bands like The Clash were signed with majors, so what?The difference is that I feel an artist should have unbridled control of they're expression. It has nothing to do with whether they a good or not . Clash , love em ! Always will.(Not big audio dynamite :lol:)


I didn't say you were boring and I don't think you are, even though you listen to indie. :) In fact, I always enjoy debating with you. It's all a matter of taste and really not that important. As for "pretentious snobs", I think Invader Zim is a pretty good example, but the majority of indie kids on here are cool. It's fun arguing over banal things such as music taste, isn't it? Thanks , I like debating too.


I like Ladytron. Is that indie or not? (I think it's electro-pop?)There are electro influenced Indie bands though like the Magnetic Fields , soooo maybe hmmm

[Led Zeppelin]

Interpol had some good stuff, and there are a lot of other great indie bands.

[Invader Zim]

I didn't say you were boring and I don't think you are, even though you listen to indie. :) In fact, I always enjoy debating with you. It's all a matter of taste and really not that important. As for "pretentious snobs", I think Invader Zim is a pretty good example, but the majority of indie kids on here are cool. It's fun arguing over banal things such as music taste, isn't it?



Tell me, if we are talking about pretentions; what of someone informing an entire group of people, who happen to like a certain very wide in scope and loosely defined 'genre' of music, that they listen to "very 'white', very studenty, very self-obsessed type of rock music", plus a whole series of contradictions which show nothing more than they are railing against a stereotype of Indie based on a very limited catalogue of bands, which is obviously unrepresentative. If that is not an example of an individual who places a far greater stock by the weight of their opinions and importance, I don't know what is.


But now I'm interested to know what music you listen to, to see if it is multi-cultural, underground, evocative and just generally 'non-'studenty'; just a tiny selection of the multitude of sins you attribute to 'Indie' (which apparently includes any rock band to come out of Britain in the 90s).

But like I said earlier of the charge that I am 'elitist', the same goes for the charge that I am a 'pretentious snob'. If it is pretentious snobbery to point out that you are chatting bollocks, guilty as charged.

[communard resolution]

"very 'white', very studenty, very self-obsessed type of rock music",

The operative words were 'largely' and 'mostly'. Of course there are numerous exceptions.


But now I'm interested to know what music you listen to, to see if it is multi-cultural, underground, evocative and just generally 'non-'studenty';I can't be arsed to compile a list now. Would my personal taste in music change anything about the points I put forward in regards to indie music anyway? Then again, I'm not the one who entered this thread with a "you're all ignorant nitwits whose opinion doesn't count" attitude, so I don't really have to prove anything. I merely expressed my dislike of most contemporary indie music, stated that I find Britney Spears more enjoyable, and generally had fun arguing with the indie kids on here in a friendly manner.

I went into this whole long anti-indie diatribe because I perceived some of your remarks as pompous and arrogant. If the remarks in question were in fact humorous, as you later claimed, I apologize: it's hard to tell on the internet whether someone you don't know is joking or not. In this case, no hard feelings.


But like I said earlier of the charge that I am 'elitist', the same goes for the charge that I am a 'pretentious snob'. If it is pretentious snobbery to point out that you are chatting bollocks, guilty as charged.This is the kind of thing I mean. The sole purpose of these two sentences is to give your perceived opponent edge rather than debate a point.

[Invader Zim]

Would my personal taste in music change anything about the points I put forward in regards to indie music anyway? You haven't made any coherant points about indie music, all you have done is indulge in banal musical snobbery based on a stereotype of indie music you, and a few others here, have created and used that as a strawman of indie as a genre. But now you have lambasted Indie, as a genre, I wish to be enlightened as to which bands we, us poor deluded fools who indulge in such commerical shite, should be listening to.


I'm not the one who entered this thread with a "you're all ignorant nitwits whose opinion doesn't count" attitudeActually, I entered this thread stating that, contrary to certain opinion, one would have to be tone deaf to think that all indie sounds the same. You, however, entered this thread entertaining the thesis that indie is an entirely soulless genre ripped off from other supposedly better genres. I thought my later responce, while tongue in cheek, was and is a fair estimation of the attitude of a person who is dismissive of a massive range of different music and a music scene, I suspect, they don't really know a huge deal about. Take that as you will.


I went into this whole long anti-indie diatribe because I perceived some of your remarks as pompous and arrogant.As you had already expended both time and posts ranting on about the faults of Indie as a genre, I think that your diatribe had a little more of a prelude than my comments.


The sole purpose of these two sentences is to give your perceived opponent edge rather than debate a point.How, precisely, does one debate ad hominems and insults?

[communard resolution]

You haven't made any coherant points about indie music, all you have done is indulge in banal musical snobbery based on a stereotype of indie music you, and a few others here, have created and used that as a strawman of indie as a genre. No, you are the one who has indulged in banal musical snobbery when you stated that people who dislike indie simply "don't know anything about the scene", as if it required a lot of investigative intelligence to be familiar with something that is getting shoved down our throats day and night.


But now you have lambasted Indie, as a genre, I wish to be enlightened as to which bands we, us poor deluded fools who indulge in such commerical shite, should be listening to.You still don't get it. I never criticized people for liking indie because it's 'commercial'. I like a lot of 'commercial' as well as less 'commercial' music. You, on the other hand, conveyed the notion that indie-haters are people who only know about music from sources such as MTV and Top of the Pops. Which led me to attack your perceived status as some sort of underground music historian since I though Indie isn't really something to get that snobbish about.
Basically, you can forget about your indietastic 'underground' and 'good taste vs. poor taste' mentality. What I was saying was not "I'm more special and more underground than you", it was "you're not as special as your pompousness betrays you think you are."
That's why I feel no need to prove anything by compiling some ridiculous musical preferences list for you.

Furthermore, you claimed my opinion had no validity because I didn't agree with your wishful notion of The Smiths being a 'post-punk' band alongside the likes of PIL, Cabaret Voltaire etc. I agree even less with this after reading your absurd theory how The Smiths are 'post punk' because they are influenced by the New York Dolls.
I'm shouldn't really be that pedantic and bothered about genres, but when confronted with someone like you who wants to be a musical snob, I just think: 1) get your facts straight and 2) find something a bit more obscure which really requires specialist knowledge that you can be snobbish about.


You, however, entered this thread entertaining the thesis that indie is an entirely soulless genre ripped off from other supposedly better genres.I claimed that indie in the present-day usage of the term is mostly rock that doesn't rock, punk without punk attitude, funk that isn't funky, pop that isn't catchy etc, which is why I don't like it. Of course there are exceptions to this, but you do need to generalise sometimes. I still stand behind my words because to my perception, they apply to the bulk of 90s-00s Indie rock.


a music scene, I suspect, they don't really know a huge deal about.There we go again...



How, precisely, does one debate ad hominems and insults?I seem to remember this is not the first time a revleft user finds your tone arrogant and condescending, and if I were you I would ask myself whether we might actually have a point.

EDIT: I've basically offered you my apologies in case I just didn't get your 'humour' in my previous post, but if you want we can continue this until kingdom come. Knock yourself out.

[Invader Zim]

No, you are the one who has indulged in banal musical snobbery when you stated that people who dislike indie simply "don't know anything about the scene", as if it required a lot of investigative intelligence to be familiar with something that is getting shoved down our throats day and night.Personally I am not into modern RnB, despite the fact that it is one of the most common musical genres on the airwaves. It just doesn't do anything for me most of the time. I have, however, heard a fair bit of the genre from the radio, etc. Just because I have heard some on the radio, and decided that for the most part it isn't my cup of tea doesn't imply that I A. know anything about it, or B. would be a complete arrogant cock if I attempted to dismiss the genre as you have done to indie. And if I did, it would not be at all snobbish if someone poined out that 1. I was being a cock and 2. that my stereotype was not based upon an informed knowledge of the RnB music scene.


You still don't get it. It seems that not only am I a poor fool whose musical tastes don't reach the lofty heights to attain your seal of approval, but now I apparently lack the intellectual capacity to master the intricacies of your position. Woe is me.


I seem to remember this is not the first time a revleft user finds your tone arrogant and condescending,

That would be because it is, you earned it.


I've basically offered you my apologies in case I just didn't get your 'humour' in my previous postThat, my friend, is not why this discussion has continued.

[communard resolution]

Personally I am not into modern RnB, despite the fact that it is one of the most common musical genres on the airwaves. It just doesn't do anything for me most of the time. I have, however, heard a fair bit of the genre from the radio, etc. Just because I have heard some on the radio, and decided that for the most part it isn't my cup of tea,

... except my knowledge of indie 'rock' extends far beyond having heard a fair bit on the radio, as I've already pointed out. Therefore your argument sucks.


It seems that not only am I a poor fool whose musical tastes don't reach the lofty heights to attain your seal of approval, but now I apparently lack the intellectual capacity to master the intricacies of your position. Woe is me.Aha.


That would be because it is, you earned it.No, the condescending tone was already there before I commented on your first post. Which is why you earned to be called a pompous twat.


That, my friend, is not why this discussion has continued.But hopefully it's over now. We're spinning in circles, the thread is exhausted.

[Lector Malibu]

Such a happy tune. Orba Squara's latest ~ Gravel

I'm liking it!:cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spVFa_1BUJA

[Invader Zim]

... except my knowledge of indie 'rock' extends far beyond having heard a fair bit on the radio,If your posts in this thread were written with any kind of mind to show that, then they have been largely counter-productive.


No, the condescending tone was already there before I commented on your first post.Like I said, my second post in this thread was tongue-in-cheek and written in part, as a parody of yours and others turgid attitude.


Which is why you earned to be called a pompous twat.Pots and kettles. As I said, I am not the one who thinks his opinions are of such enormity, importance and stature as to dismiss an entire genre of music and its fans. For my sins, I try to limit myself to only being dismissive of individuals in my displays of arrogance, rather than millions of fans and thousands of artists.



But hopefully it's over now. Quite. I do, however, and I mean this with the utmost sincerity, look forward to reading your contributions in future threads; but you will, I hope, forgive me the exception of threads on music.

[communard resolution]

If your posts in this thread were written with any kind of mind to show that, then they have been largely counter-productive.

This assessment would probably bear more weight had you demonstrated a decent understanding of your favoured music yourself. Unfortunately, your choice for a case study of post punk (--> The Smiths via Dolls) pointed to the contrary and disqualified you from judging my knowledge of indie, post punk, proto punk, and related music.


For my sins, I try to limit myself to only being dismissive of individuals in my displays of arrogance, rather than millions of fans and thousands of artists.I would be tempted to say that 10,000,000 flies can't be wrong, but that would be a cheap shot. Sorry, I didn't mean it.


Quite. I do, however, and I mean this with the utmost sincerity, look forward to reading your contributions in future threads; but you will, I hope, forgive me the exception of threads on music.Likewise.

[Invader Zim]

Unfortunately, your choice for a case study of post punk (--> The Smiths via Dolls) pointed to the contrary and disqualified you from judging my knowledge of indie, post punk, proto punk, and related music.

That isn't an at all accurate assessment of the argument I produced. Strawman arguments may well confuse the people you usually debate with on the internet, but they are old hat here.

[cleef]

I generally dislike all indie music (for the reasons stated by Nero) although this song by Ian Brown 'Illegal attacks' is pretty hard hitting (probably because it doesnt carry a similar message to the usual indie crap)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WZ9WjfZ3Pk

[which doctor]

Indie has become such a broad label that it's really useless as a genre.

To me, indie music refers to music that's self-released or distributed via independent record labels. Since that represents such a wide variety of artists and music styles, I hate it when people classify a band as "indie." If you think bands like Hot Hot Heat, Interpol, and The White Stripes are indie, then you really haven't been exposed to indie music whatsoever.

[Fawkes]

The only remotely indie band that I like is the Strokes, and they're more garage rock anyway. I think indie music sucks, but the way their scene is infested with hipsters is even worse. Nero was so right when he said it's rock without the rock and punk without the punk attitude. I once heard an indie song where the chorus was "I'm a punk rocker, yes I am," and it was some electro song or some shit like that, not at all punk music, nor did it display the attitude.

[Invader Zim]

The only remotely indie band that I like is the Strokes, and they're more garage rock anyway. I think indie music sucks, but the way their scene is infested with hipsters is even worse. Nero was so right when he said it's rock without the rock and punk without the punk attitude. I once heard an indie song where the chorus was "I'm a punk rocker, yes I am," and it was some electro song or some shit like that, not at all punk music, nor did it display the attitude.

That song (if it is the one I think you are talking about) is by a band called the teddybears, and they aren't Indie by any stretch of the imagination; I also believe that Iggy Pop was on that song, but I could be wrong.

One of the guys in that band is in the Caesars, and the Caesars are an Indie Band, and to be fair to you; they are shit.

[Foldered]

Indie Rock doesn't even exist anymore. It's just an elitist term used to describe music you've never heard of.

[which doctor]

The genre of indie rock never existed to begin with.

[Djehuti]

It really depends. I listen to some indie music like Neutral Milk Hotel, Arcade Fire, and a few others.

I agree, I also like Belle & Sebastian, Broder Daniel and Morrissey. Besides I appreciate a lot of britpop like Blur, Suede and especially Pulp. But there's much crap as well.

Pulp is the best band ever, youtube them if you haven't heard.

[bcbm]

I once heard an indie song where the chorus was "I'm a punk rocker, yes I am," and it was some electro song or some shit like that, not at all punk music, nor did it display the attitude.

That's not electro.

[Foldered]

The genre of indie rock never existed to begin with.
I didn't ever say it was a genre...

[which doctor]

I didn't ever say it was a genre...
I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to all the people who think indie rock is bands like hot hot heat, the strokes, and interpol. If you're sense of indie rock comes from Garden State, then...well...I'm sorry.

[Pirate Utopian]

How should we call those bands?

[Foldered]

How should we call those bands?
Douche-Rock.


And if we're referring to Garden State, don't forget the Shins! They were on the soundtrack, weren't they?

[Invader Zim]

Douche-Rock.


And if we're referring to Garden State, don't forget the Shins! They were on the soundtrack, weren't they?

And what music do you like? I'm willing to bet it is no more sophisticated, no less full of pretentious prats, et al. than the Indie Rock, or any other genre for that matter.

[which doctor]

Douche-Rock.


And if we're referring to Garden State, don't forget the Shins! They were on the soundtrack, weren't they?
Oh god, the shins, remember the hives? I remember my brother telling me they were going to be the next beatles

[bcbm]

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to all the people who think indie rock is bands like hot hot heat, the strokes, and interpol. If you're sense of indie rock comes from Garden State, then...well...I'm sorry.

Ugh this is like those "wut is reel punx" debates I had when I was 14.

[Fawkes]

That's not electro.
Whatever it is, it sucked. I heard it for about 10 seconds as I walked by H&M in the mall. Iggy Pop is good, but that song was really bad, and I just listened to the whole thing. The synthesizer and the guitar gave it a definite indie feel.

[Pirate Utopian]

Iggy Pop is a punkrocker, yes he is.
That song blows though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIiP-aAaupA

[Foldered]

And what music do you like? I'm willing to bet it is no more sophisticated, no less full of pretentious prats, et al. than the Indie Rock, or any other genre for that matter.
I listen to a lot of stuff. To ask me "what music I like" is kind of an arbitrary question; my answer is that I like music. Right now I've been listening to a lot of John Lennon, Jeff Buckley, Wolf Parade, Neil Young, Mazzy Star, the Jesus & Mary Chain, the Buzzcocks, the Vibrators, Dylan, Handsome Furs, This Bike is a Pipe Bomb, Big Old Eyes, Sigur Ros, Grails, etc. I'm never really strapped down to a single artist or genre, in case that isn't obvious.
To tell me that the Shins (or the Strokes, or the Hives, etc) are more sophisticated than Neil Young, or even Sigur Ros, is a little ridiculous.
We've decided that Indie Rock isn't even a genre... Singling me out and asking me what I'm into and accusing me of being "no better" (which I really don't care if I am) than Indie geeks is kind of insulting; I'm not sure what I've done to you, but I'm sorry if I've ever offended you.

[Invader Zim]

You, who has said people listen to ‘Douche rock’, are insulted by my saying that I doubt the music you listen to is vastly more sophisticated than any other music? Well, there isn’t a lot I can say to that.


To tell me that the Shins (or the Strokes, or the Hives, etc) are more sophisticated than Neil Young, or even Sigur Ros, is a little ridiculous.


Well, I actually said "no more sophisticated", implying equality in their sophistication. And I'm not sure I like the idea of defending the reputation of the Shins, the Strokes or the Hives, against the people you listed; largely because I actually prefer most of them (especially Neil Young, Sigur Rós, Bob Dylan, the Jesus & Mary Chain, the Buzzcocks, etc). But sure the Shins may not be as sophisticated as say Sigur Rós, they clearly aren't any more pretentious. Indeed I would argue that very few bands are as pretentious as Sigur Rós, unless of course we are including the likes of Merzbow. And to return to the idea of sophistication, I would be very hesitant to say that Sigur Rós are more sophisticated than say Echo and the Bunnymen or the Smiths. Sure playing a guitar with a cello bow sounds kind of cool, but do they note that some girls are bigger than others?

[Foldered]

I'm not going to argue about this. You singled me out and asked me what I like when there were plenty of other posters insulting the strokes and whoever. Just because I called it "Douche Rock," in obvious jest, does not mean I should be singled out.
Also, obviously there are bands more sophisticated than Sigur Ros, and yes, Echo and the Smiths are... nice job.

[Bilan]

Music nazis GTFO.
can't stand people who become self proclaimed experts on a genre, and whether its good or not. Especially one as broad and diverse as indie.

[Invader Zim]

You singled me out and asked me what I like when there were plenty of other posters insulting the strokes and whoever.

First off, relax. Secondly I haven't 'singled you out' (I actually asked the exact same question of Nero earlier). And, to be honest even if I had, I fail to see what you are upset about anyway. In effect you said 'x' type of music is shit. And I asked you what music you like, hardly the most vicious of questions.

[numbernine]

no one cares; but music genres stink.
nothing scares away new fans like genre labels.