Compassion

[Raoul_RedRat]

First of all, I am a pacifist by principle this does not mean I will never use violence against another human being. Yet it does mean that I am convinced that when violence is used mankind has lost something morally. Violence can be justified on a prudent basis and needs empathy to be understood yet it will always be morally wrong.

I introduce this understanding of pacifism to show where I come from in voicing the following concern. I have noticed that the anti-fascistic movement in the Netherlands has a reputation of becoming aggressive and militant. And although there are many good reasons to follow this line of action I am worried about the many young people that for some reason or the other ended up in a fascist movement and/or environment.

It is my belief that many young people ended up in fascism (for as much as I can see this in the Netherlands) because they lacked the education and support to be critical of their world. They are often confronted and conflict with young foreigners who are as much alienated and undereducated to cope with there angers and anxieties. The lack of a firm identity is filled with the promise of some form of nationalism or perverse ideology of freedom, yet they do not have the capacity to question it's consequences. Often they do not see the difference between their foreign friends which they tend to rationalize as "good foreigners" and the unknown foreign population they dissent.

And imagine this, they were brave enough to be passionate about some movement albeit a wholly corrupt and immoral one. They go to their first demonstration and get beaten up for believing something. Than above all that they are criminalized by society for there fascist beliefs. Yet society doesn't distinguish the sheep (these young kids) and the leaders (often psychopaths with a criminal past).

Wouldn't it be wise for the anti-fascist movement to have compassion for this fragile group? I think it is wrong to think or presuppose that everyone has freely chosen to become a fascist. I think we are morally obligated to not only counter-act fascist movements, we should also be there where a young person is in need for answers and security and prevent him/her choosing a path of fascism.

I'd love to read your thoughts on this subject, since I think it is really pressing for the sustainability of the anti-fascist movement.

P.S.: I hope it is clear that I do not pity anyone who has become fascism, I pity does who are becoming one while we watch and do nothing.
P.P.S.: And as far as what I do about it, I have been active on many rightwing (dutch) boards in the past, but I posted in a fashion in which I showed understanding but at the same time show all the inconsistencies in their writing. Yet I don't see many anti-fascist taking up this strategy.

[Holden Caulfield]

in a very short answer: it does have compassion, I remember not too long ago when a fascist was stabbed (not by antifa) in Russia (i think) Jaffe (who is both Dutch and an antifascist) told us to stop saying this was a good thing that 'we only want to scare them, and stop them pushing their ideas onto people'. Reminding us that he may well have been just a kid seeking some rebellion...

and we do not just advocate kicking the shit out of nazis, we offer an alternative be it through our own socialist or anarchist groups or through other means.

but the violent nature of nazism/fascism is what is seen as attractive to these kids, the 'big hard aryan men' of things like blood & honour need to be challenged to show their weakness (in theory and group solidarity).

we do not mean to fettishise violence but we will not renounce it either, we shall meet physical intimidation with physical intimidation etc.

we/I take our philosophy more from Malcom X than Jesus:lol:

[Holden Caulfield]

nobody wants to have to use violence, but pacifism as a 'moral' stance (do not get me started on morals, i consider myself a Nietzschean) is stupid as it conflicts with your view that some violence is necessary.

[Raoul_RedRat]

...and we do not just advocate kicking the shit out of nazis, we offer an alternative be it through our own socialist or anarchist groups or through other means.

But I am questioning the effectiveness of the alternatives. The problem is that anarchism, socialism or a kick in the butt doesn't address the uneasiness a lot of urban white youngsters experience with foreigners. Fascist movement address these emotions frontally and offers resentment, identity, security.

At the roots of fascism we offer less than right wing extremist do, since I have the feeling that the left tends to deny the humanity behind racially motivated fear. They (and no I don't mean the real radicals) are disturbed and need our compassionate attention to re-educate them but not by judging them. We need to address fascist tendencies with understanding, not with "it's abject to think in such way".

[Raoul_RedRat]

nobody wants to have to use violence, but pacifism as a 'moral' stance (do not get me started on morals, i consider myself a Nietzschean) is stupid as it conflicts with your view that some violence is necessary.

I don't want to obscure this thread with a debate on morals. But I think you misread me, I do not see a contradiction with saying 'violence is morally wrong' and at the same time holding that 'violence is sometimes prudentially necessitated'. There is a profound difference between the two in that the first is a guiding principle and the last is a rational constraint.

[Holden Caulfield]

we do see the reason behind the pull of the right, it is far easier to blame a minority of a few 'darkies' or 'jews' rather than attest to the fact your beloved country is opressing you, and fascism is far easier to grasp a hold of than deep marxist theroy,

but to meet with fascists on a level field, so to speak, merely gives them a parapet from which to spread their foul propaganda and from which they can intimidate and harass workers who may be immigrants

and socialism or anarchism do adress the interracial issues, if it were only spread in the way we wish, but facts being facts the right are on the rise (at least in my country) and we cannot allow scapegoating or prejudice in our communities

my point is that our use of violence is "rdentially necessitated" as you termed it,

[Sasha]

But I am questioning the effectiveness of the alternatives. The problem is that anarchism, socialism or a kick in the butt doesn't address the uneasiness a lot of urban white youngsters experience with foreigners. Fascist movement address these emotions frontally and offers resentment, identity, security.


this is one of the reasons that a lot of antifa groups, espacely in england but also in holland, focus on the white working class and do regonise the (maybe just, maybe unjust) fears present among them.
This is why i was and am an strong oponent of the "refugees welcome" campaing from a couple years ago that consisted of white midle class activist fly posting plackards with that slogan in poor working class neighboorhouds. That was one of the most patronising and backfireing campaings in antifascist history.
And its also the reason why i always advocate to both trim down the anarchist/marxist rethoric (it scares people away) but at the sametime we should offer an atractive strong anti-fascist youth culture with clearly more fun, aggro, sex, booze and drugs than that of the nazi's :cool:

[jaffe]

But I am questioning the effectiveness of the alternatives. The problem is that anarchism, socialism or a kick in the butt doesn't address the uneasiness a lot of urban white youngsters experience with foreigners. Fascist movement address these emotions frontally and offers resentment, identity, security.

I agree, we nood to distinguish the youngsters who are attracted to the fascist movement for the reasons called above and the socalled psychopaths. But with fascist do you also refer to right wing politicians as Geert Wilders? Because I've a lot of discussions with people who I know that vote for him. I don't judge them immediatly, but I try to explain that voting him is also going to effect their lives (drugs, social conditions etc.) . But sometimes I get really tired of the redneck attitude they have.

As antifascist movement we just have to prove that we are a 'sexier' movement than the fascist one.

[Holden Caulfield]

As antifascist movement we just have to prove that we are a 'sexier' movement than the fascist one.
our end went right up when they gave me the modship for this forum i think, but seriously your exactly right; most kids will get into a scene (be it a punk one or whatever) and through this and wanting to fit in, or seem hard, will pick up a fascist ideology along the way.

its the whole 'bad crowd' thing in full sway, by showing them to be cowards and bigots we stop the next generation of kids coming up from assuming the same fucked up and ignorant beliefs.

its practically a public service, we should be given medals or something