Anti-Americanism - What is it really?

[j]

What does it mean to be anti-American?

Is protesting war anti-American?

Is advocating war anti-American?

The term "anti-american" has been thrown around a lot here since the early stages of this board. But can we agree on a logical definition?

I guess it disturbs me when I am called "anti-american." I am in no way anti-american. It is true that I am a leftist, a liberal, a democratic socialist. But does this make me anti-american? I think not. Because I favor logical debate and offer criticism of the government I am anti-american?

Oppression and injustice throughout the world must be stamped out. The United States needs to acknowledge its contribution to the oppression of its own people and those around the world.

There is no other place I'd rather live than here in the US, despite its shortfalls.

I am in fact pro-american in that I care about the people around me. I care deeply. This is why I advocate universal health coverage, adequate housing for all, and free education. This is in fact the most truly american set of beliefs of all.

j

[Capitalist Imperial]

More self-serving drivel.

[j]

I only speak of myself because I can not speak for others accused of the same thing.

What is your opinion CI? Or are you just a condescending asshole?

j

[queen of diamonds]

I think being anti-anything is working - or having the intention or desire to work - against the best interests of that thing.

[Stormin Norman]

I would not say that your desire to question the government is anti-American. I would say that it is your liberal nature itself that is anti-American.

In order to understand what is meant by the term anti-American one must define two words:

Anti-against, opposite to, instead;

and America, which is a concept to broad to list in a simple dictionary definition.

One must ask; what is America? What does it mean to be be an American. From a conservative standpoint, one must recognize the importance of the documents fundamental to the existence of America, most notably the Declaration of Independence, The U.S. Constitution, and The Bill of Rights. One must understand the importance the concepts of liberty, and self reliance, and innovation played in the establishment of a state that is taken for granted by most of the world, including its own citizens.

Liberals who wish to undermine the Constitution, compromise U.S. sovereignty by means of a world government, and weaken the importance of the free-market ideals so important to this nations success, are and will always be anti-American. They wish to destroy the greatness of the established system. They wish to weaken the resolve of our nation during times of crisis and war. They actively damage the strength of the justice system, so fundamental to the success of America's civil society.

No my friends, dissent is not what I consider to be anti-American. Your desire to destroy our courts and give power to an unelected world body is un-American. Speaking your mind is the most American principle recognized today. However, the anti-American demographic uses that right to diminish that right. They prefer dictators to democratically elected bodies. They prefer violent criminals to the victims. They suggest everything that runs anti to the important ideals that made America great in the first place. You yourself have stressed the importance of socialism instead of the free-market principles that align so beautifully with democracy. That makes you anti-American. You wish to replace America with a system that restricts the freedom and choice of the citizens who hold those ideals to be self-evident. Your opposition to everything that is American makes you anti-American.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 12:36 pm on Feb. 1, 2003)

[Stormin Norman]

From: J
When will people start to realize that we are americans but part of the WORLD community?

Didn't september the fucking 11th show you assholes that we need to be aware of the world beyond our borders? 9/11 could happen again. In fact, there is little we can do stop it. But the first step to a solution is recognizing that we must co-exist with people who do not believe as most americans do. We need to stop interfering in the affairs of other nations for selfish reasons. We can fight a war on terror all we want but terror is not a regime or a philosophy--it is a tactic. Instead of trying to prevent this tactic being used, we need to understand why people feel the way they do and are then prompted to use this tactic.

Number one lesson from 9/11: WE ARE NOT ALONE. WE CAN NOT ACT ALONE. WE ARE PART OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY. WE MUST ACT IN DEMOCRATIC AGREEMENT WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD.

Withdrawing from the UN only further isolates us and provokes terrorism. The atlantic and the pacific can not any longer protect us--and neither can bull-headed aggression. Diplomacy is the only way to secure the future of this nation--NOT WAR!!!!

This is a perfect example of what I consider to be anti-American.

[j]

Capitalism, though it was the basis for the American state is not necessarily the only valid system that would comply with the constitution, bill of rights, etc. Well regulated socialism that provides for individual choice and incentive would work quite nicely. I am not advocating communism, nor am I advocating a Marxist state. Merely, socialism is the idea that the government is responsible for well being of all its citizens.

To be anti-american is to be an advocate of our membership in the world community? Guess what, we have no choice--we are members regardless. We can not withdraw from planet earth, my friend. We can either take a bullish, hawkish stance and try and intimidate the rest of the world, or we can work with them for the common good. You see, when we work for the common good of the planet--we work for the good of America. It's a simple concept really.

j

[Jaha]

I hope that even the blind patriots can agree with this.

America was founded on the belief that freedom, above all, will be sacred.

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..." --Declaration of Independance

This quote supports both freedom of expression and the right of the people to topple an unjust government. These two aspects require dissidents.

No matter how many times you vote, you don't have a democracy if we all think alike. (then it would be a fascism) if you dont have an obvious choice, you are not free. To be American is to be a dissedent.

To be American, you must accept dissidents and respect only the vote of the majority. To be American is to do what you want unless it adversely affects others. To be American is to ignore authority and let freedom, justice and goodness crush hate, fear and oppression.

BUT THOSE FUCKING CONSERVATIVES KEEP TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO DO.

JUSTICE ABOVE LAW !!

FREEDOM ABOVE AUTHORITY !!

NEEDS ABOVE WANTS !!

(Edited by Jaha at 9:26 pm on Jan. 31, 2003)


(Edited by Jaha at 9:30 pm on Jan. 31, 2003)

[Stormin Norman]

From: canIkickit
Yes, Norm the UN's regulations have been breached. By a state which the US supplies with three billion a year. The US is supposed to be a part of the UN. I think it is a conflict of interests. The US is a rogue nation.

Here is another perfect example of an anti-American stance. CanIkickit claims that by supporting the modern Jewish state the U.S. becomes a rouge nation. He compares the U.S. to Lybia, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, North Korea, and Cuba. I say that comparison can only be made by someone blind to the virtues of liberty that the American experience entails. Lumping us in with these horrible governments most definetely constitutes anti-Americanism.

The worst characteristic of vermin is the alarming rate at which they breed. At the current rate of infection, human decency is slated to be completely extinct by 2012.

[kylie]

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[Stormin Norman]

the phrase anti-american i used by the media in an attempt to demonize those who oppose US policy on any level. it seems to have backfired now though, having made people think that the majority of shit is because of america. people see people protesting, see how the people are called anti-americans, and then associate whatever was being protested against with the US. if you're in any country bar the USA, just look around. there is a much larger feeling of dislike for the US than before.
the media still doesnt seem to have got this though, im still seeing the phrase thrown around on the news whenever possible. making a snowball effect.

Complete and utter bullshit. This rise in anti-Americanism abroad is undeniable, but not for the reasons this dim whit describes.

Mumia! Mumia!

Did you know that the cop shot by Mumia was shot with a .38, the same caliber weapon lying next to Mumia when police arrived at the seen. The same caliber weapon that four eye-witnesses saw Mumia shoot him with. I don't know which is worse, cop killers, or the pond scum that tries to defend them, and get them off death row.

[kylie]

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[Stormin Norman]

You are wrong. Read the court transcipts of the case.

The job of the criminal defense attorney is to produce reasonable doubt in the jury. Contrary to the landry list of lies you have been told about the case, the facts supported the evidence. If they did not, the jury was instructed to judge the defendent not guilty if a shred of reasonable doubt existed. Since the jury found him guilty and 2 other courts upheld that decision, I am inclined to believe those who investigated the evidence, heard and analysized the facts, and dound him guilty, over a bunch of pot smoking morons marching in the street for the sake of marching. You are a lemming.

[Just Joe]

Stormin Norman, what if you support Americas freedom, Americas democracy, the right to own guns and to some extent a market economy, but you oppose Americas foreign policy? does that make you un-American?

i reckon if you look back at the statements of your founding fathers, that they would consider Americas current interventionist policies as un-American.

[kylie]

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[mentalbunny]

Ah yes feoric, you have found the chink (one of many) in SN's armour.

I've read the posts in this thread with great interest, watching SN trying to prove that we are all anti-american and that this must be a bad thing.

If we are anti-american, is it necessarily a bad thing? Look at the US and the things is does, the acts that it condones, it seems that there could be nothing better in proving your goodness than to be against the attitude of the current US government.

What is America? Once it was seen as the land of equal opportunities, freedom and justice, but it has never really been that. Even after slavery has been abolished for centuries, black people find it harder to get well paid jobs, women still get paid much less and corporations own the government and get away with it. Even Britain is better than the US and that is saying something for a country that has oppressed people over the world for hundreds of years.

I have nothing against american culture, I do not instantly hate someone if they are american, but I am against the US media who are owned by the corporations who own the fgoverment and manipulate the american public, I am against US foregn policy, I am against US environmental policy (or what exists of it) and I am against the idea that the Democrats are actually a left-wing alternatve, when they are just republicans with a different finish. I am against a country where a man who won the election cannot become President and I am against a country that does this and insists on bringing "democracy" to the rest of the world.

if that is anti-american, I am proud to be anti-american, even though I believe the Consitution, etc, to be one of the most significant documents of this world's history and I believe that the uS could truly be the greatest nation, offering support to the oppressed in the rest of the world. Nowhere else has as much optential as the US to do good.


(edit was for typo)

(Edited by mentalbunny at 2:15 pm on Feb. 1, 2003)

[mentalbunny]

sorry, double post.

(Edited by mentalbunny at 2:09 pm on Feb. 1, 2003)

[Stormin Norman]

ok, so you think that because the jury beleived it, that makes it correct? so therefore the majority is always right? well the majority of people in the world think Iraq shouldnt be attacked. So, by your logic, its correct, we shouldnt attack Iraq. dude, i thought you were pro-war on Iraq.

The more and more I discuss issues with feoric, the more I am convinced that this person is a complete moron. I am amazed at his/her pure irrational nature, and radical leaps this person tries to make when debating. Do you mind telling me how a jury decision and selling the war in Iraq to the world are linked?

Again, you expect me to believe that the pot smoking hippies, which have championed the Mumia cause know better than a jury, which heard all the information relevant to the case. A jury decision takes an absolute majority (100%) in criminal justice cases. This ensures certainty about whether or not justice is being upheld.

I am sure the combination of a persuasive prosecutor, and a weak defense attorney, has landed some innocent people in jail. However, I would trust my fate in the hands of a jury over a panel of three magistrates, any day.

From the evidence that I have evaluated in the Mumia case, it is abundantly clear that the system worked in this case. The District and State Supreme Courts have both upheld the jury decision, and the United States Supreme Court has refused to even hear the case; because no basis existed for them to further review such a clear cut, rational decision on the part of the jury, and the lower appellate courts.

You are ignorant to the facts in the case, believing only the scores of propaganda that the anti-American scum has littered the media with. This is a conserted effort to further undermine the criminal justice system of America, and is a primary example of the rabid anti-Americanism so often refered to by rational Americans, like myself. Look at the groups who are for freeing Mumia. Most of them are left-wing communist organizations that what to destroy America from the inside out. You ally yourself with these un-American groups, placing yourself in the the same category as America haters.

Judging by your opinions about majority rule, it comes as no surprise that you would wish to destroy democracy for a system that does your thinking for you. Even though you lack the intelligence to present any real challenge to the status quo, your thinking contributes to the hive mind mentality that seeks to tear down the logical design that built this country. It is abundantly clear that you prefer the idiocy of groupthink, to the reason of your own consciousness. You are a fool, a useful idiot, the type that is easily disposed of, by manipulators, when the value of your foolishness depreciates.


(Edited by Stormin Norman at 4:46 pm on Feb. 2, 2003)

[Stormin Norman]

Stormin Norman, what if you support Americas freedom, Americas democracy, the right to own guns and to some extent a market economy, but you oppose Americas foreign policy? does that make you un-American?

I believe I already answered this question in my first reply to J's question. If you missed the answer, I would blaim only your lack of intelligence, not my ability to clearly express myself. Read it again, pal. The answer to your question is clearly stated within the content of that thread.

[kylie]

null

[Stormin Norman]

i see you dont actually back up your belief that Mumia was guilty with any evidence

Likewise. However, I did tell you where you can find it. If you want the facts about the case, I suggest you look where every other intelligent individual would go. That is the original court transcripts. You aren't going to find the truth on Mumia.com. You need to evaluate the same evidence that the jury heard, place yourself in the court room, and forget any preconceived bullshit you may have heard.

I think its funny how you accuse me of something that you're guilty of, which is not providing any credible links to information that supports your case. In reality, I don't think this case is even worth the discussion, because anyone with half a brain that has read up on Mumia could tell you the guy did it. I only see a bunch of morons parading in the street, demanding he be released at once. The same morons that point to the same misconceptions that were noted by you on several occasions. These people don't bother checking into the facts, they simply babble off the anything that has been provided to them by others.

It is immoral to hold a belief without a lengthy investigation of your own.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 11:51 pm on Feb. 2, 2003)

[Just Joe]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 4:44 am on Feb. 2, 2003

Stormin Norman, what if you support Americas freedom, Americas democracy, the right to own guns and to some extent a market economy, but you oppose Americas foreign policy? does that make you un-American?

I believe I already answered this question in my first reply to J's question. If you missed the answer, I would blaim only your lack of intelligence, not my ability to clearly express myself. Read it again, pal. The answer to your question is clearly stated within the content of that thread.


ah, an internet smartass i see.

you only said that being a liberal is being anti-American because the things that Liberals today stand for are against what made America great. what i'm saying, is the present foreign policy of the USA is actually also 'anti-American' based on the thoughts of your founding fathers and the pre-cold war isolationist stance taken by America. so what i'm asking you, is does being anti-US foreign policy make you anti-American? is Pat Buchanan anti-American for example?

[Stormin Norman]

The short answer is no.

[Blibblob]

So are us conspiracy theory wackos anti-american?

How about us who see problem in the system and try to change it?

Psychopaths?

Those who corrupt others around them?

[RedCeltic]

George W. Bush is unamerican (or anti-american)

He goes against all the principles that this nation was founded on.

1) He is anti Democracy (elected by the court, not the people)

2) he is aganist the bill of rights. (Made useless with U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act)

3) he is against seperation of church and state. ( giving federal money to churches.)

[Rastafari]

Said it before and I'll say it again, Bush is singlehandedly trying to undermine everything this country has slowly crawled to over the past 50 years. He is fighting Civil Rights, Abortion, and general decent foreign policy. He has become the Reagan of Reagans, and we need another Weather Underground, if you know what I mean, before he can destroy any more human rights.

Anyway, back to the topic. If this country was still running on the ideals it was founded on, than we'd all be fine. That's what I'm trying to say. Thomas Jefferson wanted an agricultural system based on talents and not on wealth as far as rulership goes, something pretty close to old marxism. But, to quote W.B. Yeats, "Things fall apart; The Center cannot hold; Mere Anarchy is loosed upon the world" and things went downhill steadily. I feel like I've said this all before, though, so pardon me.

[Rastafari]

(Edited by Rastafari at 12:05 am on Feb. 3, 2003)

[Stormin Norman]

Thomas Jefferson wanted an agricultural system based on talents and not on wealth as far as rulership goes, something pretty close to old marxism.

Rewording the same premise and conclusion fails to make that a true statement, Rastafari. Marxism and the yeoman farmer are diametrically oppossed ideas. Self determination vs. state determination, do you mind telling me how these are the same?

[j]

SN is right. Communism as Marx describes it would go against a lot of what Tommy J believed.

However, this does not mean that Jefferson would approve of the disgusting wealth displayed by this country while the poor remain subjugated as they are.

SN-To claim that liberals are anti-american you surely need to consider pat buchannan anti-american.

j

[suffianr]

This current phase of "Anti-Americanism" isn't something new at all. It's just a reflection of public opinion about American war-mongering and it's indictment of Iraq and Afghanistan, the worldwide expansion of it's military forces and the xenophobic persecution of Muslims everywhere.

Yes, Bush reiterates, it's not Islam, it's Terrorism. But now the two entities are more inter-connected, ever than before...

If a hardcore militant Buddhist faction of Tibet suddenly launched a nuclear strike against, I don't know, Yellowstone Park or something, wouldn't you suddenly jump out of your seat and call the religion to question? Wouldn't you get all nervous and edgy about stuppas and pranic healing? If so, how would you separate the two? Would you be able to discriminate the peaceful aspects against the hardcore pyrotechnics bent on mass destruction? Or would you watch CNN and decided that both would have to go?

Why are people across the globe suddenly so Anti-American? It's nothing personal, really. It's just the politics.

[Stormin Norman]

It just goes to show you what a pussy James is. He threatens to ban me, but seems to be afraid, for some reason. You have already proven yourself to be a stalinist cocksucker. Why do you seem to be having difficulty making a complete transformation. You say you admire Che. At least he had enough guts to do what was necessary. Weak bastard. http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...c=1533&start=60 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=1533&start=60)