Serbia captures fugitive Karadzic

[spartan]

Bosnian Serb war crimes suspect Radovan Karadzic, one of the world's most wanted men, has been arrested in Serbia after more than a decade on the run.

He has been brought before Belgrade's war crimes court, in accordance with a law on cooperation with the Hague Tribunal, the Serbian presidency said.

The Bosnian Serb wartime political leader disappeared in 1996.

He had been indicted by the UN tribunal for war crimes and genocide over the 1995 massacre at Srebrenica.

His wartime military leader, Ratko Mladic, remains at large.

Mr Karadzic's arrest was welcomed by war crimes prosecutors in The Hague as a "milestone".

"Radovan Karadzic was located and arrested tonight" by Serbian security officers, a statement by the office of President Boris Tadic said, without giving details.

"Karadzic was brought to the investigative judge of the War Crimes Court in Belgrade, in accordance with the law on cooperation with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia [ICTY]."

Serbian government sources told Reuters news agency he had been under surveillance for several weeks, following a tip-off from a foreign intelligence service.

'Milestone in co-operation'

Serge Brammertz, chief prosecutor of the ICTY, welcomed the arrest.

"I was informed by our colleagues in Belgrade about the successful operation which resulted in the arrest of Radovan Karadzic," he said in a statement in The Hague.

"On behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor, I would like to congratulate the Serbian authorities, especially the National Security Council, Serbia's Action Team in charge of tracking fugitives and the Office of the War Crimes Prosecutor, on achieving this milestone in cooperation with the ICTY."

"This is a very important day for the victims who have waited for this arrest for over a decade."

Richard Holbrooke, the US diplomat who brokered Dayton Peace Accord for Bosnia in 1995, told the BBC that "a major, major thug has been removed from the public scene".

"One of the worst men in the world, the Osama Bin Laden of Europe, has finally been captured," Mr Holbrooke told BBC World News America.

The arrest of Mr Karadzic and other indicted war criminals is one of the main conditions of Serbian progress towards European Union membership. The EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn welcomed the news.

"This is certainly a milestone in Serbia's cooperation with the international criminal tribunal on the former Yugoslavia. It proves the determination of the new government to achieve full cooperation with the tribunal," Mr Rehn said.

In Sarajevo people have gathered on the streets to celebrate news of the arrest.

"This is the best thing that could ever happen, you see people celebrating everywhere. I called and woke up my whole family," Sarajevo resident Fadil Bico told Reuters.

Karadzic denial
Mr Karadzic denied the charges against him soon after the first indictment and refused to recognise the legitimacy of the UN tribunal.

The UN says Mr Karadzic's forces killed at least 7,500 Muslim men and boys from Srebrenica in July 1995 as part of a campaign to "terrorise and demoralise the Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croat population".

He was also charged over the shelling of Sarajevo, and the use of 284 UN peacekeepers as human shields in May and June 1995.

After the Dayton accord that ended the Bosnian war, the former nationalist president went into hiding.

International pressure to catch Mr Karadzic mounted in spring 2005 when several of his former generals surrendered and a video of Bosnian Serb soldiers shooting captives from Srebrenica shocked television viewers in former Yugoslavia.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7518543.stm

Well it looks like the butcher of Bosnia will finally face justice for his war crimes.

[communard resolution]

Un-fucking-believable - they finally caught Radovan Karadzic.

How will this affect the fragile situation in Serbia? Will there be a nationalist uprising? Thought, opinions, ideas?

[mykittyhasaboner]

i recently heard about this. hes been gone so long i forgot about him.

how will this affect the situation in Serbia? well i can say that the nationalists who support him wont be very happy at all. my guess is that his supporters will have a bunch of rallies and protests, maybe a riot, because im sure many people who support him will be very angered.

i remember reading about hundreds of nationalist supporters rallying in his hometown (i think Petnjica?)a few years ago. but i dont think they'll have an organized uprising, although this may serve as a factor for the nationalists to gain support, which is just as bad. :(

also, id be nice for the Serbian police to give out the details of his arrest.

[spartan]

He was hiding out in a rented apartment in Belgrade as a doctor named Dragon Davic.

He grew a beard, long hair worn in a ponytail and woar glasses and was described as very religious and an expert in meditation and calmness.

He attended lots of medical conventions including one two months ago which was filmed (It actually showed him on TV but he wasnt recognised due to his new appearence).

Outside the court where he was being held Serb Nationalists had gathered in support of him and were shouting his name and giving Nazi salutes. Riot police soon moved in.

This is what he looked like back in the day:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Evstafiev-Radovan_Karadzic_3MAR94.jpg

This is what he looks like now:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/Radovan_Karadzic_2008.jpg

[Lamanov]

How will this affect the fragile situation in Serbia? Will there be a nationalist uprising? Thought, opinions, ideas?

:lol: No.

There will not be a "nationalist uprising". And what is "fragile"? It's "fragile" as in any other country.

Basically, there were some nazis protesting, fighting with the police, but that's a minor thing.

In Serbian entity in Bosnia there were no incidents. TV usually gives negative comments from the public, but I'm hoping that people just don't care that much any more: we're listening to the same fucking stories for 20 years now.

[Wake Up]

He was hiding out in a rented apartment in
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/Radovan_Karadzic_2008.jpg

Didn't know that Rowan Williams had branched out into war crimes.....


Not sure how this will effect Serbia. I suspect that it will help their integration into the EU, but at the same time the neo-nazi's will gain a boost.

Executing Karadzic would be a huge mistake IMO

[Dr Mindbender]

what were his politics?

I know that ignorant right wingers try to say that slobodan and co. were commies.
:blink:

[spartan]

what were his politics?

He is Montenegrin by origin and was leader of the Serbian Democratic Party a right wing Serb Nationalist party within Bosnia and Herzegovina which operated in the Serb majority area of Bosnia known as the Republika Srpska for it's Serb inhabitants.

He is accused of directing the genocide (Via concentration camps and massacres) against Bosnian Muslims (Often right in front of UN peacekeepers) in the 90's and he put Sarajevo (Bosnian capital) under a brutal siege for 3 years.


I know that ignorant right wingers try to say that slobodan and co. were commies.

During his time in office Milosovic still kept 70% of the Serbian economy nationalised, so perhaps this is why they think this?

Or perhaps it's because of there association with the old Socialist Jugoslavia?

[Chapaev]

The kidnapping of President Karadzic is an act of interference by the imperialist powers through their stooges in Serbia. The Hague is only interested in persecuting Serbs since they are the ones who refused to kneel to the empire’s demands.

The claim that 8000 "innocent" Muslims were "murdered" in Srebrenica is repeated despite evidence to the contrary, that combatants were killed, including Serbs, and that the 8000 number is so absurd. Meanwhile, these butchers of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia pose as holier-than-thou when they are the worst, most blood-stained war criminals the world has ever known.

[Vendetta]

This is what he looked like back in the day:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Evstafiev-Radovan_Karadzic_3MAR94.jpg

His hair looks like several small rodents were killed for it.

Just had to throw that out there.

[Faux Real]

The claim that 8000 "innocent" Muslims were "murdered" in Srebrenica is repeated despite evidence to the contrary, that combatants were killed, including Serbs, and that the 8000 number is so absurd.It's not absurd, the majority of them were rounded up and shot. If they were not completely "innocent" they were forced to pick up arms against the genocidal Serb mercenaries. The fact that over 8000 identified people have been killed by the Serbs makes you a complete fucking moron.

[The Author]

Angry Serb nationalists protest Karadzic arrest

By JOVANA GEC, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 55 minutes ago

Serb nationalists skirmished with riot police in the capital Tuesday, lashing out against the new Western-leaning government that captured war crimes suspect Radovan Karadzic. Karadzic's lawyer vowed to appeal Serbia's plan to extradite the former Bosnian Serb chief to a U.N. war crimes court.
Riot police deployed in downtown Belgrade to keep about 200 members of the extremist Obraz group under control. The demonstrators threw stones and clay pots at the officers, chanting "treason!" and trying to break through police cordons.
Five demonstrators and a policeman were injured, doctors at Belgrade emergency clinic said.
"This is a hard day for Serbia," said Tomislav Nikolic, leader of the ultranationalist Serbian Radical Party, adding that Karadzic was "a legend of the Serbian people."
Nikolic vowed his party will do "all in its power" to topple the pro-Western government.
In the village of Petnjica, where Karadzic was born, a relative of the wartime Bosnian Serb leader, Vukosav Karadzic, said he was "sorry he did not kill himself but allowed himself to be captured."
Serb officials say they arrested Karadzic Monday evening near Belgrade after more than a decade on the run. The war crime suspect had grown a long white beard to conceal his identity and had lived freely in the capital before being arrested.
"His false identity was very convincing," said Vladimir Vukcevic, Serbia's war crimes prosecutor who coordinated the security forces arrest. "He had moved freely in public places."
Karadzic is sought on 11 charges of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity for his actions during Bosnia's 1992-1995 war. The psychiatrist-turned-Serbian-nationalist is accused of masterminding the deadly wartime siege of Sarajevo and the 1995 executions of some 8,000 Muslim boys and men in Srebrenica.
While on the run in Serbia, the world's top war crimes fugitive worked at a private alternative medicine clinic and wrote for a Belgrade magazine, according to Serbian officials. Karadzic also lectured about meditation at a May festival in Belgrade.
To do all this, Karadzic used an alias, Dragan Dabic, government minister Rasim Ljajic said at a press conference Tuesday. He displayed a recent photo of an unrecognizable Karadzic with long white beard and hair.
Ljajic refused to reveal more details about the arrest, saying Karadzic's movements were being analyzed to help track down another war crimes suspect, Bosnian Serb wartime commander Ratko Mladic. Serbian security services found Karadzic, 63, while looking for Mladic, he said.
Karadzic was questioned early Tuesday by a Serbian judge who later ruled that he can be handed over to the U.N. war crimes tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands, Vukcevic said.
Karadzic has three days to appeal. His lawyer, Sveta Vujacic, said he will fight extradition on the last day, Friday, to thwart authorities' desire for an immediate transfer.
Karadzic's arrest appeared to be linked to a change in political will.
Serbian President Boris Tadic's pro-Western government came to power only two weeks ago and appointed a new security chief, replacing an aide to former nationalist prime minister Vojislav Kostunica.
Liberal politician Nenad Canak said Kostunica and his nationalist allies had protected Karadzic and Mladic for years.
That assessment matched comments from the former U.S. ambassador to Bosnia, Richard Holbrooke.
Karadzic "was protected by people who knew who he was," Holbrooke told CNN on Tuesday. "NATO did not make an all-out effort to capture him at the beginning, in 1996, which was a terrible mistake. They knew exactly where he was.
"And then he slipped away and he was sheltered by people."
There was no immediate comment from Kostunica to Karadzic's arrest.
European Union foreign ministers said the arrest helped Serbia's bid for EU membership, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel called it a "historic moment."
"The victims need to know: Massive human rights violations do not go unpunished," she said in Berlin.
Karadzic's whereabouts had been a mystery since he went on the run in 1998, with his early hideouts reportedly including monasteries and mountain caves in remote eastern Bosnia.
Karadzic's family in Bosnia, banned from leaving the country over suspicions they helped him elude capture, asked Tuesday to have the restrictions lifted, his daughter told The Associated Press.
Sonja Karadzic said family members want to spend at least a few hours with Karadzic before his transfer to U.N. custody.
"For years we have not seen our father, husband and grandfather; my mother's health is not very good, and we do not have the financial means necessary to travel to Netherlands," she said.
Once he is extradited to The Hague court, Karadzic will become the second most important defendant ever at the tribunal custody. Former Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic also was tried for genocide but died of a heart attack in 2006.
Karadzic is accused of orchestrating the worst massacre of Bosnia's war, when Serb troops overran the U.N.-protected enclave of Srebrenica and slaughtered thousands of Bosnian Muslim men and boys.
Karadzic is also linked to the 3 1/2-year siege of Sarajevo, when Bosnian Serb troops starved, sniped and bombarded the city from hills high above it. Residents were kept alive by a thin lifeline of food and supplies provided by U.N. donors and peacekeepers.
The siege lasted from 1992 to February 1996. An estimated 10,000 people died.
By the time the Bosnian war ended in late 1995, an estimated 250,000 people were dead and another 1.8 million driven from their homes.
___
Associated Press writers Dusan Stojanovic in Belgrade; Radul Radovanovic in Pale, Bosnia-Herzegovina; Predrag Milic in Podgorica, Montenegro; Mike Corder in The Hague, Netherlands; and Robert Wielaard in Brussels, Belgium, contributed to this report.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080723/ap_on_re_eu/serbia_karadzic&printer=1;_ylt=AuoX24POLRQN0wZnmpD4S6tbbBAF

[RedAnarchist]

Didn't know that Rowan Williams had branched out into war crimes.....


Not sure how this will effect Serbia. I suspect that it will help their integration into the EU, but at the same time the neo-nazi's will gain a boost.

Executing Karadzic would be a huge mistake IMO

He won't be executed. At most he'll get life without parole, because there is no possibility of execution.

[communard resolution]

The claim that 8000 "innocent" Muslims were "murdered" in Srebrenica is repeated despite evidence to the contrary

Where is your evidence to the contrary then, bigmouth?

[Red_or_Dead]

Where is your evidence to the contrary then, bigmouth?

Most probably a Jewish-Islamic-Homosexual-Western-Croatian-Bosniak-Albanian conspiracy.


The kidnapping of President Karadzic is an act of interference by the imperialist powers through their stooges in Serbia. The Hague is only interested in persecuting Serbs since they are the ones who refused to kneel to the empire’s demands.


How about the Croatian war criminals? Generals Ante Gotovina and Mirko Norec are both in the Hague, along with other Croatian and Bosniak officers. In fact the Hague and the EU gave Croatia plenty of shit when Gotovina was still on the run.


The claim that 8000 "innocent" Muslims were "murdered" in Srebrenica is repeated despite evidence to the contrary, that combatants were killed, including Serbs, and that the 8000 number is so absurd. Meanwhile, these butchers of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia pose as holier-than-thou when they are the worst, most blood-stained war criminals the world has ever known.

And because somebody else is doing the same in Iraq and Afghanistan, it somehow makes Srebrenica ok?

That and there is plenty of evidence that those people got murdered.

[Wake Up]

He won't be executed. At most he'll get life without parole, because there is no possibility of execution.

Ah Ok didn't know how the Hague stood on the death penalty.
I was just taking a lead from the Americans, who are nothing if not trigger happy.

[Malakangga]

yes,i was saw him on the news this afternoon

[Lamanov]

The claim that 8000 "innocent" Muslims were "murdered" in Srebrenica is repeated despite evidence to the contrary, that combatants were killed, including Serbs, and that the 8000 number is so absurd.

Oh, for fuck's sake! All capable men were rounded up and shot, while their families were shipped off to Muslim held territory. The number is about 8000.

[The Author]

Karadzic to defend himself, mirroring Milosevic

by David VujanovicWed Jul 23, 11:25 AM ET

Captured Bosnian Serb genocide suspect Radovan Karadzic is to defend himself before the UN war crimes court, his lawyer said Wednesday, raising memories of the trial of his late ally, Slobodan Milosevic.
Karadzic, who stands indicted for genocide and crimes against humanity, was arrested in Belgrade on Monday, having evaded capture for more than a decade partly thanks to a fake identity as an alternative health guru.
The Bosnian Serb political leader during the 1990s Bosnian war was a close ally of then Yugoslav president Milosevic, who was also indicted for war crimes and had chosen to defend himself before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY).
Milosevic's manipulation of the role was blamed for making his trial one of the longest in international legal history at more than four years. The Serbian strongman died in custody in The Hague in 2006 before a verdict was delivered.
"Karadzic will have a legal team in Serbia that will help him with his defence but he will defend himself" at the ICTY, his lawyer Svetozar Vujacic said.
Vujacic had said on Tuesday that he would file an appeal against Karadzic being sent to the court, in a bid to postpone the transfer for as long as possible.
"I will lodge the complaint on the last day of the deadline, on Friday. I do not think it will be adopted, but I will disrupt their plans to transfer him," Vujacic said, estimating Karadzic might not be transferred "before the end of next week."
Under Serbia's law on cooperation with the ICTY, suspects can appeal their transfer to the UN war crimes tribunal before a special committee approves the move.
The process could take up to nine days, but Serbia's war crimes prosecution has said it expects Karadzic to be sent to the UN court by Monday or Tuesday at the latest.
Since his arrest, the public's imagination has been captured by the reports of the fake identity Karadzic forged as an alternative medicine guru which enabled him to avoid being detected for so long.
The 63-year-old had made himself virtually unrecognisable in order eke out a living through the practise under the false name of Dragan Dabic, deceiving naturopaths, health writers, landlords and many more.
He disguised himself under flowing white hair, a thick beard, glasses and a white Panama hat, enabling him to move freely throughout Belgrade and several Serbian towns.
One Serbian daily described the look as that of a "Loveable Guru".
Karadzic used public transport, even appeared on television and drank at cafes in downtown Belgrade's main boulevard with his new colleagues.
But after leading many astray for the best part of the past year, Karadzic was finally tracked down and nabbed by security forces on a suburban bus in the Serbian capital after an apparent tip-off.
Speaking to AFP, lawyer Vujacic said his client now looked like the Karadzic of old after having his hair and beard trimmed.
"He's looking good. He had a hair cut, he shaved himself, and is in great shape. He now looks just like before," Vujacic told AFP.
"He hopes that truth and justice will prevail (but) he's skeptical about this unjust court which is against Serbs" and hoped the tribunal's mandate, presently set for 2010, would expire before his trial ends, he added.
In the 1990s, Karadzic's thick shock of grey hair became a familiar sight to television viewers around the world, when he manipulated UN peacemaking efforts.
He faces 11 counts of genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity and other atrocities before the UN tribunal.
The charges are mainly related to two of Europe's worst atrocities since World War II, the 44-month siege of Sarajevo which killed more than 10,000 people and the Srebrenica massacre of some 8,000 Muslim men and boys in 1995.
In Bosnia's bitter inter-ethnic war, Karadzic is also said to have authorised so-called "ethnic cleansing" in which more than a million non-Serbs were driven from their homes.
Meanwhile, Karadzic's daughter appealed to the powerful international envoy to Bosnia to return the family's seized travel papers, and to allow them to visit him in a Belgrade prison cell.
"I ask for Mr. (Miroslav) Lajcak ... to enable our trip to Belgrade, since it is very likely the last chance to see my father," Sonja Karadzic-Jovicevic told AFP.
"My mum is sick, and our financial situation is such that we could not afford to make a visit to The Hague".
Karadzic's arrest means there are only two more fugitives of the UN court at large. They are his former military chief Ratko Mladic, 65, and Goran Hadzic, 49, a former Serb politician wanted for "ethnic cleansing" in Croatia.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080723/ts_afp/warcrimesictyserbiabosnia

[MarxSchmarx]

Bosnian Serb war crimes suspect Radovan Karadzic, one of the world's most wanted men, has been arrested in Serbia after more than a decade on the run.

He has been brought before Belgrade's war crimes court, in accordance with a law on cooperation with the Hague Tribunal, the Serbian presidency said.

Good riddance. For once I can root for the cops. WTF took so long?

[Chapaev]

How about the Croatian war criminals?

The ICTY released Nasir Oric whose forces committed numerous atrocities against civilians. In April, there was an acquittal of former KLA leader Ramush Haradinaj.



That and there is plenty of evidence that those people got murdered.

The Srebrenica massacre was a fiction told to isolate the Bosnian Serb forces and justify NATO aggression. Read the analysis by George Pumphrey.

[Lamanov]

The ICTY released Nasir Oric whose forces committed numerous atrocities against civilians. In April, there was an acquittal of former KLA leader Ramush Haradinaj.

This is true; of course, the Hague Tribunal is a bourgeois court; it is operating under specific political conditions.

However...


The Srebrenica massacre was a fiction told to isolate the Bosnian Serb forces and justify NATO aggression. Read the analysis by George Pumphrey.

This is bullshit.

The massacre happened.

No explanation to "why" or "how" could undo this fact.

[Red_or_Dead]

The ICTY released Nasir Oric whose forces committed numerous atrocities against civilians. In April, there was an acquittal of former KLA leader Ramush Haradinaj.


True. It is also true that they gave ridiculously short sentences to the Vukovar trinity.

That aside, the ICTY is, like DJ-TC said, a bourgeois court. Im not even expecting that they will be fair. If they would be fair, Karađić would have been shot on arrival. That, however, will not happen, as it did not happen in other cases, regardless of the side they fought on.


The Srebrenica massacre was a fiction told to isolate the Bosnian Serb forces and justify NATO aggression. Read the analysis by George Pumphrey.

Documented and identified remains of 8000 people are not fiction. They are as real as it gets. Yugoslavia had a census in 1991, just before the war. According to it, Srebrenica municipality had 27,572 bosniaks (or about 75%) and about 8000 (22%) serbs. In 2005 there were only about 4000 bosniaks left.

If nothing else, it proves of an exodus of over 23 thousand Bosniaks.
However, that number is lower, because we know that at least 8000 did not run away, they were simply killed. As I said, there are documented, and in most cases identified, remains of those people, as well as eyewitness acounts and footage of some of the executions.

AND even if we put Srebrenica aside, there are still charges of ethnic cleansing all over the country. Siege of Sarajevo, Omarska concentration camp, shelling of numerous towns and villages throughout Bosnia & Hercegovina.

Karađić is a piece of clerical, nationalist shit. He is not an anti-imperialist. He was imperialist himself. He needs a nice round piece of lead straight in his head, and thats it.

[Chapaev]

Karađić is a piece of clerical, nationalist shit. He is not an anti-imperialist. He was imperialist himself.
To characterize Karadzhic in particular and the Bosnian Serbs in general as imperialistic demonstrates a misunderstanding of the term. The only imperialist actors in the Bosnian conflict were the United States and western European powers. By no reasonable measurement could any of the three sides in Bosnia be called imperialist. The Bosnian Serbs had played a progressive role because they wanted to, overwhelmingly, to preserve the status quo. Miloshevic in particular was a progressive who wanted to preserve Yugoslavia.


AND even if we put Srebrenica aside, there are still charges of ethnic cleansing all over the country. Siege of Sarajevo, Omarska concentration camp, shelling of numerous towns and villages throughout Bosnia & Hercegovina.

Leaving aside the fact that the Srebrenica narrative has been challenged by many observers, as early as 1992 Karadzhic issued an order forbidding all crimes. Criminals were prosecuted and punished. Most crimes were spontaneous committed by those seeking who were revenge.

[Colonello Buendia]

well I'm pleased that they caught him, unsettling that he came in to our houses through the chimney every 24 December:( apart from that I hope he dies in prison.


One thing that stays at the forefront of my mind was that IMO Serbia is only catching these fuckers to get into the EU, they have a popular following so I doubt the govt would go after them unless EU membership was at stake

[communard resolution]

Miloshevic in particular was a progressive who wanted to preserve Yugoslavia.
Fuck yes, he was so progressive even the Nazis like him! They too love how Karadzic and Milosevic "tried to save Yugoslavia from separatist elements":

http://www.***************/forum/showthread.php/karadzic-arrested-507973.html

Come to think of it, Stormfront would be a good place for you for many reasons. Not only do they champion ultra-nationalist scumbags like Milosevic as "anti-imperialists", they're also very adept at denying genocide. The Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide, the Srebrenica Massacre... you name it, they deny it. Sounds good to you?


Leaving aside the fact that the Srebrenica narrative has been challenged by many observers, as early as 1992 Karadzhic issued an order forbidding all crimes. Criminals were prosecuted and punished. Most crimes were spontaneous committed by those seeking who were revenge."... has been challenged"... "despite evidence to the contrary"...
Blah, blah, blah.

So far you've failed to present any "evidence" to the contrary. I asked you before and I'm asking you again: where is it?

[Matty_UK]

Fuck yes, he was so progressive even the Nazis like him! They too love how Karadzic and Milosevic "tried to save Yugoslavia from separatist elements":

http://www.***************/forum/showthread.php/karadzic-arrested-507973.html

Come to think of it, Stormfront would be a good place for you for many reasons. Not only do they champion ultra-nationalist scumbags like Milosevic as "anti-imperialists", they're also very adept at denying genocide. The Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide, the Srebrenica Massacre... you name it, they deny it. Sounds good to you?

"... has been challenged"... "despite evidence to the contrary"...
Blah, blah, blah.

So far you've failed to present any "evidence" to the contrary. I asked you before and I'm asking you again: where is it?


Some Serb nationalists might be opposed to the breaking up of Yugoslavia, but that does not mean we should support it's breaking up. Neo-nazis oppose the EU more consistently than socialists, does that mean we ought to support that?

US imperialism desired a breaking up of Yugoslavia, for obvious reasons-to create a region of weak right-wing states, easily manipulated and incapable of taking their development into their own hands. The breaking up of Yugoslavia has created a situation where natural resources are now completely accessible to multinational corporations, Yugoslav industry has been dismantled and no longer offers any competition to imperialist producers, public services and social programs have been decimated, and there is a skilled but impoverished workforce providing a cheap labour pool to depress wages elsewhere in Europe.

It is clear that the US and NATO were pushing for this as soon as Yugoslavia was no longer useful as a buffer state against the USSR. Check out the 1991 Foreign Operations Act; any part of Yugoslavia failing to declare independance in 6 months would lose all US financial support, and seperate elections must be held in each Yugoslav Republic. Aid would only go to "democratic" forces, and we know what that means.

And since you brought up nazis and we're talking about "democratic forces," let's have a look at Alija Izetbegovic, the US's boy in Bosnia. He was an active Nazi in his youth, and he was pushing for the break up of Yugoslavia. Also, despite losing the election, he mysteriously took the office anyway. (on another note about the "democratic" nature of former Yugoslavia, in 1999 the elected President of Repulika Srpska, a serb ministate in Bosnia, was removed by NATO forces in the name of democracy) And he wasn't the only Nazi pushing for the break-up of Yugoslavia; the Croatian leader Franjo Tudjman pushed for the break-up of Yugoslavia and he was also a Nazi, claiming that "the establishment of Hitler's new european order is justified by the need to get rid of the jews;" further he, (with the assistance of NATO bombings as in Krajina!) ethnically cleansed half a million Serbs from Croatia between 91 and 95.

And how about the KLA, the Kosova Liberation Army? These are a terrorist group, heavily involved in the heroin trade, and ultra-rightists whose only social goal was to get all non-Albanians out of Kosova. Ethnic Albanians in government manipulated public funds to take over Serb land, Serb wells were poisoned and crops destroyed, Serbs were murdered arbitrarily and young Albanians were encouraged to rape Serbian girls.

And whilst some atrocities are true; no doubt atrocities took place at Srebrenica, but let's all bear in mind that hundreds of Serbs were slaughtered by Bosnians at Srebrenica also; claims of Serb ethnic cleansing are false. People fleeing Kosova were fleeing the ground war against the KLA, (NOT ethnic cleansing!) and then NATO bombs; up to 100,000 Serbs also fled Kosova, as well as Roma and other non-Albanian ethnic groups. In fact, it was the Serbs being ethnically cleansed. When NATO troops moved into Kosova they sat back and watched as tens of thousands of Serbs were driven from the province and hundreds of Serbs, Roma, Gorani, Turks, Montenegrins even Albanians who spoke Serbian were killed by KLA gunmen, In fact today, Serbia is the only multi-ethnic state left in former Yugoslavia.

Now, recognising atrocities is one thing, but we should be aware of why the imperialists wanted to break up Yugoslavia and of the lies that were spun around it.

[Red_or_Dead]

To characterize Karadzhic in particular and the Bosnian Serbs in general as imperialistic demonstrates a misunderstanding of the term. The only imperialist actors in the Bosnian conflict were the United States and western European powers. By no reasonable measurement could any of the three sides in Bosnia be called imperialist. The Bosnian Serbs had played a progressive role because they wanted to, overwhelmingly, to preserve the status quo. Miloshevic in particular was a progressive who wanted to preserve Yugoslavia.


I understand imperialism as an expansion of a nations authority, through teritorial, political or economic conquest. That was exactly what Serb nationalists attempted in Bosnia and Croatia. They wanted to expand Serbian territory, which Serbs had to share with other nationalities in SFR Yugoslavia. The Repulic of Srpska in Bosnia and the Republic of Srpska Krajina in Croatia were clear attempts to draw Serbian borders according to the memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Science and Art in the end of 1980s, disregarding the borders of the constituent republics in former Yugoslavia.

Milošević was same as Karađić: a nationalistic, clerical piece of SHIT.

The seccesion of Slovenia, Croatia, AND Bosnia&Hercegovina was decided on referendums held by each of those republics, and is therefore legitimate by any standards, even though the leaders of all three republics were extreme nationalists. Taking that into consideration, any arguments of "trying to keep Yugoslavia together" are bollocks. Yugoslavia fell apart because of internal differences, caused by the economic crisis and rising nationalism on ALL SIDES.

And, how is keeping the status quo progressive?


Leaving aside the fact that the Srebrenica narrative has been challenged by many observers, as early as 1992 Karadzhic issued an order forbidding all crimes. Criminals were prosecuted and punished. Most crimes were spontaneous committed by those seeking who were revenge.

Bollocks. Concentration camps were not the work of some Serbian junior officer who hated Muslims. Neither was the Siege of Sarajevo (which lasted for several years. Spontaneous? Yeah, right). Or the Srebrenica massacre. Those things took resources, logistics and funds, that were beyond an individual to provide. They were organized by the state.


US imperialism desired a breaking up of Yugoslavia, for obvious reasons-to create a region of weak right-wing states, easily manipulated and incapable of taking their development into their own hands. The breaking up of Yugoslavia has created a situation where natural resources are now completely accessible to multinational corporations, Yugoslav industry has been dismantled and no longer offers any competition to imperialist producers, public services and social programs have been decimated, and there is a skilled but impoverished workforce providing a cheap labour pool to depress wages elsewhere in Europe.



First of all, the US joined the game pretty late on. At the time when Slovenia and Croatia were secceding (1990-1991) the US was strictly opposed to the break-up. It came in later, when it saw that old Yugoslavia was beyond saving.

Second, right now we are not exploited by the US, but by the EU.

And Yugoslav industry has never been a competition to that of the Western Europe.


And since you brought up nazis and we're talking about "democratic forces," let's have a look at Alija Izetbegovic, the US's boy in Bosnia. He was an active Nazi in his youth, and he was pushing for the break up of Yugoslavia. Also, despite losing the election, he mysteriously took the office anyway. (on another note about the "democratic" nature of former Yugoslavia, in 1999 the elected President of Repulika Srpska, a serb ministate in Bosnia, was removed by NATO forces in the name of democracy) And he wasn't the only Nazi pushing for the break-up of Yugoslavia; the Croatian leader Franjo Tudjman pushed for the break-up of Yugoslavia and he was also a Nazi, claiming that "the establishment of Hitler's new european order is justified by the need to get rid of the jews;" further he, (with the assistance of NATO bombings as in Krajina!) ethnically cleansed half a million Serbs from Croatia between 91 and 95.


I wont argue with that. It has to be said, tho that youre only showing one side of the story.


In fact today, Serbia is the only multi-ethnic state left in former Yugoslavia.


Serbia is a nation state, with national minorities. Bosnia and Hercegovina is a multi ethnic state.


Now, recognising atrocities is one thing, but we should be aware of why the imperialists wanted to break up Yugoslavia and of the lies that were spun around it.

I repeat: the break up of SFR Yugoslavia was caused by ethnic, religious and economic tensions within the country. The role of the superpowers was mainly restricted to Bosnia and Kosovo. 3 out of 6 republics secceded from the federation without foreign intervention: Slovenia, Croatia and Macedonia.

[kingbee]

Yes, this man is a war criminal, but I have no doubt that the Criminal Courts and the media are anti-Serb. Why this is, I have no idea. But I fail to understand how only Milosevic was tried in the Hague, yet Tudjman, Izbetgovic and Thaci were not prosecuted. In fact, Thaci is a head of state that much of the West champions despite personally commandeering killing throughout Kosovo!

Whether Karadzic was responsible for much of the ethnic cleansing is in no doubt- but then hundreds of thousands of Serbs were 'cleansed' from Serb Krajina and Kosovo in the years before. Yet we hear nothing of those who ordered these.

And on Srebenica: there was almost certainly some type of massacre of innocents, but the number is greatly inflated.

http://news.serbianunity.net/bydate/2003/September_24/8.html

[Lamanov]

The Bosnian Serbs had played a progressive role because they wanted to, overwhelmingly, to preserve the status quo. Miloshevic in particular was a progressive who wanted to preserve Yugoslavia.

Oh, please. No one played a positive role in the war, because all the sides were led by complete criminals and lunatics. You're subscribing to bourgeois anti-communist ideology while identifying a nation as "One" ("They").


Leaving aside the fact that the Srebrenica narrative has been challenged by many observers, as early as 1992 Karadzhic issued an order forbidding all crimes. Criminals were prosecuted and punished. Most crimes were spontaneous committed by those seeking who were revenge.

Oh, get over yourself. Karadžić was a criminal. He built his party on organised and industrial crime, just like all others - no matter the side. Their armed gangs committed first war crimes, thus urging the situation of general fear, which helped the progressing of further conflicts, and with that more power and profit to the leaders.


And since you brought up nazis and we're talking about "democratic forces," let's have a look at Alija Izetbegovic, the US's boy in Bosnia. He was an active Nazi in his youth, and he was pushing for the break up of Yugoslavia. Also, despite losing the election, he mysteriously took the office anyway.

This is true. He took the office because his gang kidnapped the elected chairman of presidency and threatened to kill him unless he signed resignation in his favor.


I understand imperialism as an expansion of a nations authority, through teritorial, political or economic conquest. That was exactly what Serb nationalists attempted in Bosnia and Croatia. They wanted to expand Serbian territory, which Serbs had to share with other nationalities in SFR Yugoslavia. The Repulic of Srpska in Bosnia and the Republic of Srpska Krajina in Croatia were clear attempts to draw Serbian borders according to the memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Science and Art in the end of 1980s, disregarding the borders of the constituent republics in former Yugoslavia.

The first argument is true, but I'll have to correct you on one thing. The border plan for "Great Serbia" was not drawn up in the SANU Memorandum of 1987. I really don't know who pushed for this story, and it's very common indeed, but it's not true. Border plan was invented by Vojislav Šešelj - nationalist radical leader - but he was never in academia. I've read the Memo, and there's nothing like that in it; only a critique of present day situation from a national standpoint. No war plans.


The seccesion of Slovenia, Croatia, AND Bosnia&Hercegovina was decided on referendums held by each of those republics, and is therefore legitimate by any standards, even though the leaders of all three republics were extreme nationalists.

This is questionable. The 1974 Constitution supports secession only if given constituent nations agree to it. That means of Serbs didn't agree to a secession of Croatia, it wasn't legal. Tuđman wanted to gain Serb votes - who were already armed and shooting - by suggesting the "Z4 plan" - it would have given the Serbs a very high degree of autonomy (self-government, police, education), but the Serb leadership refused, because it was interested in, as I've said, more guns, power and money.


I repeat: the break up of SFR Yugoslavia was caused by ethnic, religious and economic tensions within the country. The role of the superpowers was mainly restricted to Bosnia and Kosovo.

Actually, their role was much greater. Unified Germany supported Croatia, and it used its financial supremacy in the EU to push this line. Clinton administration joined in to give support to Izetbegović. Richard Holbrook admitted recently: they were pushing arms to B&H Army.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

This is questionable.

It also ignores the major role of imperialist countries like Germany in the breakup of Yugoslavia.