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Guest
25th January 2003, 16:58
"Socialism" in Sweden.
Let me start by saying that Sweden is not Socialist as Karl Marx, Engel, and Lennin defined and perceived Socialism. A Socialist society does not have any room for private enterprise, and Sweden has corporations. You could say Sweden is a mixed-economy that tilts more to the Left than Right. It is, without reservation, a welfare state.
"The cradle to grave welfare state heaven is coming apart at the seams. It’s had a considerably longer run than most other socialist experiments, but fail it must. And it will fail for the same reason all the others have: Penalizing ingenuity and effort while at the same time rewarding indolence and mediocrity doesn’t work. It’s contrary to human nature. It cannot be done indefinitely".

"Benevolent" socialism shows it doesn’t work either

Whenever one cites the dismal record of socialist countries such as Russia, China, Cuba, and all the other wretched failures, there’s always the rejoinder of, "Look at Sweden. Now there’s an example of how socialism can succeed if given the chance under the right circumstances."

I guess it depends on what your definition of success is. Certainly, Sweden hasn’t resorted to mass murder and the other terrors associated with dictatorships to impose their egalitarian paradise. Sweden is a democratic country.

At the same time, it’s apparent that state planners there at a very early stage were concerned about what happens when too many people are on the dole. Years ago it was revealed that tens of thousands of Swedes with government-determined undesirable traits such as poor eyesight or low IQ or "Gypsy features" were involuntarily sterilized beginning in the 1930s. Indeed, that particular collectivist benefit remained on the books well into the 70s. Another innovative program involved giving large amounts of sweets to the mentally retarded in order to study tooth decay.

No, Sweden didn’t have gulags or firing squads or planned starvations. On the other hand, it was never the ideal model of a welfare state as Leftists have claimed.

For seven decades, Sweden has managed to endure government redistribution of wealth. How? Perhaps it’s the small population; Sweden has fewer people than Illinois does. Maybe it’s the homogeneity of the society. Possibly it’s because Sweden sits out wars, saving huge amounts of money. Whatever the reasons, most Swedes are apparently satisfied to set aside their independence - and pay huge taxes - in exchange for some perceived economic security.

The late Astrid Lindgren wrote children’s books, including the Pippi Longstocking stories. That success brought her a tax bill from the Swedish government claiming 102 percent of her earnings. Even a Swede earning much less, slightly more than the equivalent of $19,000, is in the 50 percent tax bracket. And that’s after the conservative party, in office for a few short years in the early 1990s, slashed the tax brackets.

The standard argument is that high taxation and social welfare engineering have brought Sweden economic prosperity. Yet reality is very different.

As reported by Reuters this week, "Swedes, usually perceived in Europe as a comfortable, middle class lot, are poorer than African Americans, the most economically deprived group in the United States, a Swedish study showed on Saturday."

The report went on to note that if Sweden were a U.S. state, it would without doubt be the poorest one. The median American household income in the late 1990s was more than $39,000. In Sweden, it was the equivalent of under $27,000. The study’s authors noted that if the present trend continues, "things that are commonplace in the United States will be regarded as the utmost luxury in Sweden."

The cradle to grave welfare state heaven is coming apart at the seams. It’s had a considerably longer run than most other socialist experiments, but fail it must. And it will fail for the same reason all the others have: Penalizing ingenuity and effort while at the same time rewarding indolence and mediocrity doesn’t work. It’s contrary to human nature. It cannot be done indefinitely.

Sporadically, Sweden has made small steps away from a command economy. Reducing taxes a little here, lifting some regulatory burdens to help enterprises start up there, and whittling down the national debt temporarily slowed Sweden’s economic deterioration.

But now it must move toward individual responsibility if it wishes to turn things around. Sweden is most emphatically not an example of how socialism can work. Remember that the next time someone suggests it is.

The modern version of the class struggle is the belief that the interests of big businesses are dissimilar to the ones of the workers. Many politicians play that card constantly, referring to it as an unquestionable truth. Corporations, they say, care more about their profits than the wellbeing of their workers. Yet, the economic development industrialized countries attained would not have been possible without big businesses. Let's look into the example of Sweden which a lot of people praise as a successful socialist country. Sweden's private sector is suffering a crisis because entrepreneurship of its citizens is not being encouraged by the policies of its government. Nowadays it is more beneficial for people to work in the government sector than in the private sector. Some people even pay around 65 percent of their salaries to the government, causing people not to bother being innovative and developing new products since the majority of their profits would end up in the coffers of the government. I should not deny that Swedish citizens receive their benefits such as free tuition in college and free health care. Yet, when one pays taxes, his freedom of choice is taken away because taxes are mandatory payments to the government. One has no freedom to choose which type of health care one desires or even if he actually wants health care.

The examples of the rest of the world show us socialist policies were rarely successful in another countries.The number of countries that supported socialism in its full form decreased exponentially since the late '80s when the Berlin Wall fell. What we knew as the "Second World" cannot be classified that way anymore since those countries reversed their ill-fated socialist policies. Moreover, nations that applied mild socialist programs (Sweden, France, Spain) are seeking ways to replace policies (such as the ones discussed earlier) with ones more similar to the ones applied in the United States that were proven to be much more successful. It is fruitless to consider policies that were already proven to be unsuccessful in many other countries. Many of the problems our societies face can be resolved by observing other countries that have had already faced the same problems as we do now and following the examples of successful solutions.

http://www.survival.com.mx/gunrack/democrap.html
"You used the word "fact" a few times, except, in the manner you used it, you were referring to only the "facts" as fed to you by your Socialist media and government.
When I use the word "fact" I do so from personal experience, not because of some non-sensical blatherings of an obscure intellectual! "

http://www.digitaltrouble.com/ken&ashley/a...ley/healthcare/ (http://www.digitaltrouble.com/ken&ashley/ashley/healthcare/)
"Finally, at a time where advocates of socialized medicine like Sweden and Canada are cutting back their plans trying to cut costs and avoid bankruptcy, the financial dangers of socialized medicine must not be ignored."

http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/bangersiste...ters/158/7.html (http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/bangersisters/158/7.html)
"09/25/02: Socialized medicine = long, long, long waiting lists."

http://w6daily.winn.com/000926.html
"Sweden's Woes"

http://www.iedm.org/library/userfeessweden.pdf
"Swedish health care in transition."

http://www.iedm.org/library/art127_en.html
"Privatizing Health Care in Sweden."

http://www.objectivemedicine.org/governmen...ed_medicine.htm (http://www.objectivemedicine.org/government_controlled_medicine.htm)
"Government "controlled" medicine."

Capitalist Imperial
25th January 2003, 17:02
It seems that here we have the rare occurance of an individual who actually lives in a socialized state posting here.

More often than not, these individuals are critics of socialism, not champions of the ideology.

Perhaps the detriments of socialism are best illustrated by the opinions of one of its victims.

Invader Zim
25th January 2003, 17:08
Thats quite interesting, i will have to talk to some of the Swedish students in school and see what they say...

Geddan
25th January 2003, 17:23
Capitalist Imperial; I am a Swede and I am indeed a spokesperson for socialism. I consider Sweden's recent failures as part of the neoliberal shift our policies are taking. What our Guest here presents is the idea that more money in your wallet means a better society, and history has proved him wrong. America has got serious problems with health care, great poverty problems, increasing crime. Sweden's health care quality is indeed falling, but does it help if we privatize health care so that only the chosen elite have access to it? Does it help if we cut the money we give away to health care? No, the thing that needs to be done is heavily taxing large corporations, or nationalising them to make their profits common. The theory that the state is taking away so much of the profits that no one will work for them anymore is naive, it is capitalism which has failed to motivate workers. And if workers ain't motivated, why the heck does so few vote to the right?

Ah yes, the conservatives... their politic agenda is somewhat strange, look at this:

1. Cutting taxes
2. Cutting money grants
3. Increase defense spending
4. Join NATO
5. Increase amount of polices.
6. Privatize health care.

By cutting welfare the Moderate party (as they are called) are going to back up the cutting of taxes. Our taxes we pay are a lot more than the grants spendings, thus we will have a shortage in money. With our newly acquired shortage in money, we will increase defence spendings (and increasing the shortage), and by recruiting more and more polices we will have loads of bills to pay. We sell out the hospitals to get some money back, but what will we get? An elite welfare where those who can pay are treated. Those who can't must have grants from the state, which means that grants must again be instituted, thus we will have a huge shortage when every normally earning person wants to get treated. If someone can't pay, he will have to seek loans. The loans will be huge, since hospital costs are, and he will most likely never be able to pay it back. He will be registered, not granted any future loans, and he will have to pay back to the state for life. Is that welfare?

Geddan
25th January 2003, 17:29
BTW Capitalist Imperial and Guest, this might show you something:

Results in parliamentary elections:
Left Bloc:
VP (Left Party) : 8,3 %
Social democrats: 39,9 %
Environmentalists: 4,5 %

Right Bloc:
Christian democrats: 9,1 %
People's party: 13,3 %
Centrist party: 6,2 %
Moderates: 15,1 %

The leftist bloc didn't lose any votes, although the major leftist parties did (to smaller leftist parties). The right bloc lost 2 % or something like that, and that tells you where the wind is blowing: The people are satisfied with a socialized state, Capitalist Imperial. I am a Swede, and I am not satisfied, it could be better, but it will be better by instituting true socialism into Sweden.

Guest
25th January 2003, 17:31
Geddan: USE SOME COMMON SENSE. The only reason Sweden is slowly shifting to the Right is because your brand of "Socialism" (Welfare) is failing. If your country were doing so good, it wouldn't find a need to tilt to the right. Mind you, Capitalism in a mix economy is not without its woes, but your "Utopia" has had its days. You either implement more realistic solutions to your problems, or you stay "collective" and crash.

Capitalist Imperial
25th January 2003, 17:35
Quote: from Geddan on 5:23 pm on Jan. 25, 2003
Capitalist Imperial; I am a Swede and I am indeed a spokesperson for socialism. I consider Sweden's recent failures as part of the neoliberal shift our policies are taking. What our Guest here presents is the idea that more money in your wallet means a better society, and history has proved him wrong. America has got serious problems with health care, great poverty problems, increasing crime. Sweden's health care quality is indeed falling, but does it help if we privatize health care so that only the chosen elite have access to it? Does it help if we cut the money we give away to health care? No, the thing that needs to be done is heavily taxing large corporations, or nationalising them to make their profits common. The theory that the state is taking away so much of the profits that no one will work for them anymore is naive, it is capitalism which has failed to motivate workers. And if workers ain't motivated, why the heck does so few vote to the right?

Ah yes, the conservatives... their politic agenda is somewhat strange, look at this:

1. Cutting taxes
2. Cutting money grants
3. Increase defense spending
4. Join NATO
5. Increase amount of polices.
6. Privatize health care.

By cutting welfare the Moderate party (as they are called) are going to back up the cutting of taxes. Our taxes we pay are a lot more than the grants spendings, thus we will have a shortage in money. With our newly acquired shortage in money, we will increase defence spendings (and increasing the shortage), and by recruiting more and more polices we will have loads of bills to pay. We sell out the hospitals to get some money back, but what will we get? An elite welfare where those who can pay are treated. Those who can't must have grants from the state, which means that grants must again be instituted, thus we will have a huge shortage when every normally earning person wants to get treated. If someone can't pay, he will have to seek loans. The loans will be huge, since hospital costs are, and he will most likely never be able to pay it back. He will be registered, not granted any future loans, and he will have to pay back to the state for life. Is that welfare?



Good perspective, and I undersytand that the US has some work to do on health care and also education, but I disageee with you on some key isues:

Capitalism more than any other system motivates workers. This is evidenced by the US having the world's stongest economy, industry, and technology base, as well as the innovative products and inventions that the US constantly yields. American workers are the world's best compensated. It is socialism that gives workers compensation that is driven less by worker-effort and input, and more by centrally planned assignment and distribution. Without the prospect of pay for performance, workers will continue to do just a mediocre job for standardized compensation.

Tax cuts help the economy, it puts more $$ in peoples hands, and in a consumer state like the USA that $$ is usually spent, increasing economic activity and distributing the $$ again.

As for NATO and defense spending, I am in full favor of maintaining a well equipped, well trained, lethal military force at all times. The world can change on the drop of a dime. Just because we are the only current superpower does not mean that we will always be, and we need to maintain a state of the art defense force to protect american sovereignty and interests indefinately.

I think you are wrong when it comes to policies. Conservatives favor less federal government intervention and rather focus on state's and individual's rights. To the contrary, it is liberal democrats who want more government intervention, and thus more government control, i.e. policies.

Guest
25th January 2003, 17:38
Geddan, institute "true Socialism" in Sweden. You mean, government by force, one party system, censor the press, the "token" few know what's best for the rest of the nation----as Marx wrote in his works---oh, and don't forget the firing squads and planned starvation; the latter should be easy to implement since food distribution will be "centralized" in the hands of the government. Maybe you won't need planned starvation, since Sweden is not as big as the former USSR. Yes, you deserve a "true" Socialist society and I hope you get it.

Geddan
25th January 2003, 17:52
Guest, maybe you should read some of Marx before you quote something he hasn't said, and maybe you should look to the countries where people really starve, and why.

Capitalist Imperial, the motivation of workers in US doesn't lie in capitalism, it lies in being "unpatriotic" and a "communist" if you don't work well. To every day swar the pledge of allegiance is indoctrination, and could very well promote production in any country (look at some "communist" states, for example, where the leader is worshipped...)

Capitalist Imperial, further you should not stick so hard to the US ideology definitions when I discuss Swedish party programmes, since these vary. That the moderates are conservatives doesn't mean that they don't like cops, they are our most cop-friendly party, so I think YOU are wrong.

Defense spending should be cut, we should preserve lives rather than waste them.

The tax cuts you mention are the key to why the US don't have high-quality healthcare and education, when you put corporate needs before people.

Geddan
25th January 2003, 17:55
Hmm, I think someone of us has exchanged "police" for "policy", shit...maybe this explains something.

Capitalist Imperial
25th January 2003, 18:02
Our workers are not subjected to saying the pledge of allegiance. Our kids are in school, and we sing the star spangled banner at sporting events, but that really is it.

There is, however, a good amount of patriotism here

However, I still must disagree with your worker theory. American free-market capitalism rewards the hardest, smartest, and most innovative workers with better compensation. This competition results in everyone doing their best, and forever raising the eschelon of performance. That is whay America does so well, especially with economics, technology, and innovation.

Yes, this leads to some inequities of distribution, but it is offset by the notion that you have the freedom to control your own destiny in life, and that is fundamental to a happy workforce.

antieverything
25th January 2003, 18:14
No, Guest, that isn't what he means at all.

CI, in your entire previous post, you said one thing that was true. The rest were lies.

Capitalism more than any other system motivates workers. This is evidenced by the US having the world's stongest economy, industry, and technology base, as well as the innovative products and inventions that the US constantly yields.

We'll just leave it that the "motivation" question should be left for a later argument. The assertions you make are true. America does have the world's strongest economy and industry but this is due in no small part to the incredible amount of untapped natural resources that the nation was given access to in its early years and to the supercharged economy that it experienced after WWII (while Europe lay in ruins).

American workers are the world's best compensated.

Actually, American workers work harder and recieve less than those in any other advanced country. You would think that since America has the highest worker productivity in the world it would be only fair that these workers would recieve a larger percentage of the wealth they produce. Strangely, America has the industrialized world's worst income inequality problem. It would make sense to say that the fact that America's system is closest to the capitalism that Marx described is why American workers are the most productive. This doesn't really hold up, however, because you have to remember the role which capital plays in production: maximizing worker productivity. No one will argue with the fact that America has the most advanced industrial technology and that this has something to with our worker productivity. Interestingly enough, America is rapidly losing its status as having the most productive workers in the world as other nations catch up in the implementation of capital...it is important to note that the socio-economic structures in these countries are much more egalitarian. (I think that I've shown you those statistics before)

Tax cuts help the economy, it puts more $$ in peoples hands, and in a consumer state like the USA that $$ is usually spent, increasing economic activity and distributing the $$ again.

It really isn't that simple. Often, tax cuts can do harm to a society without having any real affect on the economy.




(Edited by antieverything at 6:23 pm on Jan. 25, 2003)

Capitalist Imperial
25th January 2003, 18:20
Antieverything, I think we are looking at 2 different things here. If you count socialized nations and are counting the social benefits received as compensation, then maybe the average individual compesation could be seen on par with US paychecks, but if you are talking about $$ in hand after taxes, then you must concede that America has the largest average household income. Usually such income is also accompanied by benefits such as health care, stock options, 4021K matching, etc. Throw these into the mix and I would have to say that america's average individual compensation is the world's best.

antieverything
25th January 2003, 18:55
Remember how many families have both parents working as opposed to Europe (us is about 60% while Germany is under 20%) and remember that our average health-care expenditures are twice as much as in Europe. If you look at per capita earning power we are down the list behind several social-democracies and Japan. We do, of course, lead in purchasing power because of our huge domestic market but Canada, Germany, and Japan are gaining on us.

Most jobs aren't that "cooshy" I'm afraid. Half of the population is on Medicare or Medicaid.

According to the US Bureau of Labor statistics, here are the average worker compensation numbers for 2001(US=100).

Austria- 104
Denmark- 108
Germany- 117
Norway- 114
Switzerland- 108

These numbers used to be much higher but they have dropped due to Europe's recession.



(Edited by antieverything at 6:57 pm on Jan. 25, 2003)

Capitalist Imperial
25th January 2003, 19:37
good stuff. I also agree that purchasing power and a strong dollar must also be considered.

Geddan
25th January 2003, 23:57
Hmm...policemen are the word ;)

Guest: A tilt to the right? Nonsense, why did the least extreme of the right wing parties began calling themselves "bourgeoisie left" after the election? Shows CLEARLY where the wind is blowing. Capitalist pig.

EoD

(Edited by Geddan at 3:57 am on Jan. 26, 2003)

Guest
28th January 2003, 08:35
I'm Swedish. I don't have time to read all this now, but I'll get back to you. In the meanwhile, if anyone have questions just hit me up. I'm "Spiritual_Minded" on Che-Lives)