How can you say that Stalin was a hero?

[forward]

How can you say Stalin is a hero? How is the murder of millions EVER JUSTIFIED? How is killing people simply on the basis of remaining elite power? How is killing all opposition justified? How is killing people simply for not having a picture of the "great leader" justified? Please tell me you do not worship a mass murderer.To the OP: What do you thik of the Stalinist regime of N. Korea? All those people are starving.To tell you the truth, I'd rather live in America during the Great Depression than live in Soviet Russia during the Great Purge. By far.

[Lost In Translation]

How is the murder of millions EVER JUSTIFIED?
That's a good question. How is the murder of millions ever justified. Look at what the Americans have done to Japan, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Justify that.

How is killing people simply on the basis of remaining elite power?
That wasn't even a proper question.

How is killing all opposition justified?
How is the Night of Long Knives justified?

How is killing people simply for not having a picture of the "great leader" justified?
What? I never knew that just because i didn't hang a picture of the Great Stalin on my altar, I would be killed.


Please tell me you do not worship a mass murderer.
That's a bit rich coming from you. If you live in a capitalist nation, chances are sometime in your country's history, there was a ruthless leader with blood on his hands.

To tell you the truth, I'd rather live in America during the Great Depression than live in Soviet Russia during the Great Purge. By far.

So you would rather live in a place where you don't know whether you can afford to put food on the table the next day than a place where if you weren't the opposition, a hero of the revolution, or a kulak, you were fine?

[forward]

What Americans did to Japan was to end to the war. In Afghanistan and Iraq to liberate them. End of story. Far more justified than killing people for being opposition. And please stop being a smartass, I was talking about in Soviet Russia at the time, which was rather obvious. But Stalin killed a schoolteacher for having a book with a picture of Trotksy in it. So if people are killed for simple things like that, you never know whether you are an ememy of the people. One day the NKVD come to your door for some fabricated crime and you were never seen from again, so you never know if you were sent to the Gulags....you never know....The NKVD had quotas and they arrested people just to improve the economy by sending them the Gulags so they could have slave labour.

[danyboy27]

What Americans did to Japan was to end to the war. In Afghanistan and Iraq to liberate them. End of story. Far more justified than killing people for being opposition. And please stop being a smartass, I was talking about in Soviet Russia at the time, which was rather obvious. But Stalin killed a schoolteacher for having a book with a picture of Trotksy in it. So if people are killed for simple things like that, you never know whether you are an ememy of the people. One day the NKVD come to your door for some fabricated crime and you were never seen from again, so you never know if you were sent to the Gulags....you never know....The NKVD had quotas and they arrested people just to improve the economy by sending them the Gulags so they could have slave labour.

i will answer that in private check your messages

[comrade stalin guevara]

What stalin did was to liberate russia if americans can use that than why cant we lmao

[comrade stalin guevara]

North korea is not stalinist it went through so called de-stalinization it follows the ideology of Juche. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche)

[Sir Comradical]

Famines existed all over the region before Stalin ever got to power and they were worse under the Tsar so it's a bit silly to blame Stalin for the deaths of millions due to famine. Stalin's achievements should be noted as pivotal to the success of the Soviet Union which brought millions of people out of feudal serfdom into the modern industrialized world. The nazi's would have overwhelmed Eastern Europe and Russia if it weren't for Stalin. The man never slept, he was constantly organizing and planning, for that reason he is respected and feared. We should criticize Stalin, but his overall effect has been positive.

[Vendetta]

I'd like to point out not all of us think Stalin is a hero.

[Lost In Translation]

What stalin did was to liberate russia if americans can use that than why cant we lmao

Indeed. We should use the word "liberate" more often. After all, the word seems to have a very wide range of definitions :lol::lol::lol:.

[Dros]

How can you say Stalin is a hero?

Very easily?


How is the murder of millions EVER JUSTIFIED?

Stalin didn't kill millions of people.


How is killing people simply on the basis of remaining elite power?

That sentence makes no sense on two levels. 1.) "remaining elite power" is not grammatically correct. 2.) Stalin was suppressing the elite who were trying to retain power. You've got it backwards.


How is killing people simply for not having a picture of the "great leader" justified?

Never happened.


Please tell me you do not worship a mass murderer.

We don't worship anything and we don't respect mass murderers (like Uncle Sam).


To the OP: What do you thik of the Stalinist regime of N. Korea? All those people are starving.To tell you the truth, I'd rather live in America during the Great Depression than live in Soviet Russia during the Great Purge. By far.

NK is not "Stalinist".

Forward, it's quite clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Comrade Rage]

How can you say Stalin is a hero?I say that Stalin was a hero for building socialism in the USSR, carrying on Lenin's work in an extremely alienating situation, and beating back the dark forces of fascism.

How is the murder of millions EVER JUSTIFIED?How are your figures ever justified? Let me guess, the Ukrainian famine is Stalin's fault, not the fault of the kulaks who burned their own fields. Let me guess again, WWII casualty figures are his fault too.
How is killing people simply on the basis of remaining elite power?What are you even saying?
How is killing all opposition justified?Uh..what? Stalin never killed all of his opposition. VIOLENT opposers of workingclass administration were punished in that kind of manner, but people who opposed the government non-violently weren't treated that way.
How is killing people simply for not having a picture of the "great leader" justified?Once again: idiocy. Not even the Black Book of Communism makes that charge.

That's the kind of propaganda I'd expect to hear from a Nazi rag like Signal, or Das Schwarze Korps.

Please tell me you do not worship a mass murderer.Do I worship him? No, you fool. I appreciate his theories and I accept them as valid, and I also recognize the importance of his work.
To the OP: What do you thik of the Stalinist regime of N. Korea?What do I thik of the 'Stalinist' regime of the DPRK? I thik that you're confusing 'Juche', the philosophy of the Kims, with Marxism-Leninism. If you read books by either of the Kims, you'll realize quickly that Juche is more of a nationalist ideology that focuses on autarky. I do not consider it to be Marxist, and you'll find few Marxists that do.
All those people are starving.To tell you the truth, I'd rather live in America during the Great Depression than live in Soviet Russia during the Great Purge. By far.Well, obviously. You're a right-wing capitalist. You'd rather live in a capitalist country.

I'm stunned.:rolleyes:

[forward]

The deaths of millions were not based on famines, they were mostly killed for being an "enemy of the people". I forget the statistic, I think it was like 1/5 were arrested. Most people were sent to the Gulags for nothing or killed. Many of the promienent old Bolsheviks confessed to crimes they did not do, because they were tortured so severely. drosera99 did you live in the Soviet Union during Stalin's rule? If not, you cant say things like "never happened" because you dont know. All those people talking about how greeeeeeat Stalin should really talk to someone who was sent to the Gulags for some fabricated crime, ask them how they liked it. Ask anyone who lived in the Soviet Union during Stalin's rule how they loved living in constant fear. Also, I am getting a little confused. If you say Stalin was a great leader, isn't communism the abolishment of a government? That's what Marx said, didn't he? So, Stalin remained power and ruled with an iron fist? i mean if he was communist, he would have stepped down wouldn't he?

[forward]

No people were killed for more silly things than advocating violence. Like, I dunno, a schoolteacher having a picture of Trotsky, and it wasn't even a positive thing, it was simply a picture, because it was history. Oh right, anything against the "great leader" was not historical eh? North Korea is very similar to Stalinist Russia. Stalinist Russia was imperalist and nationalist as well. I dunno, didn't Lenin say something about imperalism being the highest stage of capitalism or something? Why did Stalin take control of all those Eastern european countries while the Americans were liberating the Western countries from Nazi rule?

[Comrade Rage]

drosera99 did you live in the Soviet Union during Stalin's rule? If not, you cant say things like "never happened" because you dont know.
Did you live in the USSR during the Stalin era?

You're the one who has to prove your allegations, not vice-versa. You've got it backwards.:laugh:

Your post: failing...failing...failing...failed.

[Bud Struggle]

Your post: failing...failing...failing...failed.

Yea. I agree here with Brick--if you want to disagree with the Communists here, fine. But you have to do two things--be respectful, it's their board. And then stop shotgunning around--know the issue you wish to criticize well, do your homework before you start slamming something, and then be prepaired to discuss it in detail.

And a third thing: OFFER something to the Forum--give don't just take.

Welcome to the OI. :)

[forward]

I am trying to be respectful, but it's kind of hard when people are constantly insulting me. I am trying to learn. My threads were in the learning section, and were transfered to the Opposing Ideologies, so I'm just questioning some of this stuff. It just got moved here. I really dont need people to say stuff like "you fail at this!", would a teacher say that to a student? You really dont need to be mean.You didn't live in the Soviet Union during Stalin's rule either, Brick, so I dont suppose you would know what went on during that period either. From mutiple sources I have read about the horror that was the 1930s in the USSR. There are people who have been purged for the slightest dissent.

[comrade stalin guevara]

Yes there was foward but like the war in iraq it was needed to 'liberate' russia from serfdom do you no what a serf is? the serfs were exploited worse then any thing stalin did to 'liberate' russia.

[forward]

Is the ideal communist society one where a certain person has absolute power and the people live in constant fear and killed for dissent? So Stalin industrialized Russia at the expense of how many people? That's just? If a government was to kill people based on their political views, would that be just? "You're a communist, so you must die" Execution by firing squad. Or how about, "I really dont like the leader of the country" and then you will be killed as well. That doesnt seem fair, does it? Why do so many communists defend Stalin when communism is AGAINSt government? Stalin's regime was against everything communism is for, "equality" etc. Equality didn't exist, unless you mean the method he enforced. There was no discrimination based on the people he killed.

[Lost In Translation]

Is the ideal communist society one where a certain person has absolute power and the people live in constant fear and killed for dissent?
No, the ideal communist society is when classlessness and statelessness is achieved.

So Stalin industrialized Russia at the expense of how many people?
That's just?
No, that's not just. Neither is 'liberating Iraq and Afghanistan' or 'ending the war' at the expense of the indigenous people there.

If a government was to kill people based on their political views, would that be just? "You're a communist, so you must die" Execution by firing squad. Or how about, "I really dont like the leader of the country" and then you will be killed as well. That doesnt seem fair, does it?
No. But you mentioned killing people based on their political views. That happened in the US as well, only it's not killing, it's branding you a communist, and then shunning you for the rest of your life. Is that just?

Why do so many communists defend Stalin when communism is AGAINSt government? Stalin's regime was against everything communism is for, "equality" etc. Equality didn't exist, unless you mean the method he enforced. There was no discrimination based on the people he killed.
Equality didn't exist in Stalin's regime, yes. But who said that all of us supported it?


My suggestion, forward, is to not use examples from the past to argue issues on theory. It will only get you in a deep hole here.

[forward]

I'm not arguing the theory, i'm arguing practicality. And really was talking to "comrade stalin guevara" who was defending him, not Marxism in general. I know where it leads though, the classlessness and statelessness that you idealize will only become more defined, like in the USSR, class and state were very evident. It started out being the idea to bring equality to Russia and ended up being corrupted.

[RHIZOMES]

Why do so many communists defend Stalin when communism is AGAINSt government?

Yeah, that's what SOCIALISM is for.

[Publius]

What Americans did to Japan was to end to the war. In Afghanistan and Iraq to liberate them. End of story.

So yeah, the killing of millions of people can, apparently, be justified:

Ending a war with an aggressor Japan, for instance, is a perfectly good situation in which to kill millions of people.

So you've answered your own question.

[chimx]

Let me go through your questions one by one


How can you say Stalin is a hero?

Many people here don't think he is a hero, and was indeed a reactionary person, myself included.


How is the murder of millions EVER JUSTIFIED?

Murder is often justified in some way. The United States ethnically cleansed a large portion of its native population so as expand our land and exploit the resources. We killed millions of civilians in WWII.

Stalin killed many people, but I disagree with your "millions" numbers. Murder implies intent, and I don't think you can prove Stalin intended to kill so many people. He purged the upper-strata of the agrarian population immediately before a serious drought. This led to a horrendous famine in the USSR that left families eating each other to stay alive in some cases. When people say "stalin killed millions", they usually include those that died from famines to get their numbers


How is killing people simply on the basis of remaining elite power?[/b]

Some people think the ends justify the means.

[quote]How is killing all opposition justified?

Prior to the Korean War, the United States government helped massacre tens of thousands of socialists and union activists in the south based on them being an oppositional political force. Was that justified? It's all subjective and I think it is unwise to moralize about history. The question is did it hurt working people in the long run. In my opinion it did.


How is killing people simply for not having a picture of the "great leader" justified?

It's not, but I hadn't heard of any cases where this is true. You have to remember, that many supporters of Stalin believe that the United States manipulates a lot of the data on the Soviet Union to further capitalism. It often comes off as conspiratorial in my opinion, but that is how a lot of people view Soviet history: by rejection a large portion of it that comes from the West.


What do you thik of the Stalinist regime of N. Korea?

I think it is an extremely backwards country where workers have very little real power in their government or say in their work place.


All those people are starving.

There was a major famine in the 1990s due to problematic weather, but the DPRK shares responsibility for starving since they hoarded the food relief and kept it from working peoples, selling it instead to the families of party members.


To tell you the truth, I'd rather live in America during the Great Depression than live in Soviet Russia during the Great Purge. By far.

I would rather live in neither. I would rather live right here, right now, and push forward the goals of working people.

[Lector Malibu]

Some of my favorite american anti-communist pro capitalist propaganda crap. And I'm not a Stalinist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w86QhV7whjs&feature=related

[Comrade Rage]

I am trying to be respectful, but it's kind of hard when people are constantly insulting me.Oh yeah...

You didn't live in the Soviet Union during Stalin's rule either, Brick, so I dont suppose you would know what went on during that period either.So what if I didn't live there during Stalin's rule? You didn't either!! How are your assertions any more valid than mine, especially when (just guessing here) all of your knowledge of Stalin comes from capitalist history books that defame Lenin in the same manner.

From mutiple sources I have read about the horror that was the 1930s in the USSR. There are people who have been purged for the slightest dissent.
I've heard the same propaganda over and over. Telephone number sized death tolls:ohmy:. Evil bureaucrats lurking in the shadows waiting to eat yer babies :ohmy: .

It's bunk. Look at the 'sources' of this information, they are dubious at best.
I wasn't alive during the 18-19th Centuries either, but I still know that the history of Native Americans was skewed to make them look bad.

[Chapter 24]

while the Americans were liberating the Western countries from Nazi rule?

The Soviets put forth the most effort in destroying the fascist threat.

[Lector Malibu]

The Soviets put forth the most effort in destroying the fascist threat.

This is true actually. And Foward don't forget the war raged on for quite awhile well before the Americans set foot in it.

And i'll add further during the war years when the Americans needed The Russians they where seen as allies on many levels.

[Comrade Hamio]

Friends, I found this and I think it's very interesting.

People vote for who was the greatest Russian.

nameofrussia.ru/rating.html

Currently Stalin is number one and Lenin number five.

[Djehuti]

How can you say Stalin is a hero?

I can't.

Marxist-leninists ("stalinists") are actually a quite small minority amongst communists.

[chimx]

Marxist-leninists ("stalinists") are actually a quite small minority amongst communists.

That is not true.

[Dros]

Marxist-leninists ("stalinists") are actually a quite small minority amongst communists.

You seriously need to get out more.

[Djehuti]

That is not true.

Really? There's no way to check really, but I very much doubt that marxist-leninists have been in majority for a long time, if ever. But sure, it varies from country to country.

They are not especially big here in Sweden at least, mayhaps a few hundred activists and some thousand voters. But they are okey, I bought their paper a few days ago.

[Comrade Rage]

They are not especially big here in Sweden at least, mayhaps a few hundred activists and some thousand voters.That's the case with almost every leftist split out there.

Actually, I've looked at the number of organizations out there, I'm pretty sure that 'anti-Leninist Communists' are outnumbered 4:1 by Marxist-Leninists. There are more ML organizations than 'orthodox Marxist' and 'left-communist' groups. At least there are more with websites, anyway.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Over 50% of Russians said "he would win in the ballot box" if he was alive to run in Russian elections today. Roughly 80% have a "positive" view of him.

So, more importantly, it is you that should be asking the Russian, Georgian, and other people of the former Soviet bloc as to why they support a man that supposedly slaughtered tens of millions of them.

[Pogue]

The Great Purge (Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): Большая чистка, transliterated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian) Bolshaya chistka) was a series of campaigns of political repression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_repression) and persecution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution) in the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) orchestrated by Joseph Stalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin) in 1937 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937)-1938 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938). [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#cite_note-Figes-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#cite_note-Social_Catastrophe-1) Also described as a "Soviet holocaust" by several authors,[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#cite_note-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#cite_note-4) it involved the purge of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purge_of_the_Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union), repression of peasants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulaks), deportations of ethnic minorities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_minorities), and the persecution of unaffiliated persons, characterized by widespread police surveillance, widespread suspicion of "saboteurs", imprisonment, and killings.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#cite_note-Figes-0) Estimates of the number of deaths associated with the Great Purge run from the official figure of 681,692 to nearly 2 million.
In the Western World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_World) the term "the Great Terror" was popularized after the title of Robert Conquest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Conquest)'s The Great Terror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Terror), which in its turn is inspired by the period of the Great Terror (French: la Grande Terreur (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terreur_%28R%C3%A9volution_fran%C3%A7aise%29#La_Gr ande_Terreur_.28juin-juillet_1794.29)) at the end of the Reign of Terror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror) during the French Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

[Comrade Rage]

Over 50% of Russians said "he would win in the ballot box" if he was alive to run in Russian elections today. Roughly 80% have a "positive" view of him.

So, more importantly, it is you that should be asking the Russian, Georgian, and other people of the former Soviet bloc as to why they support a man that supposedly slaughtered tens of millions of them.Exactly. And this is even after 45 years of 'de-Stalinization' and 'Perestroika'.

Forward, I'd like to see your response to this.

It's good that so many Russians take a class-analysis of the Stalin years.

[forward]

Really? There was a poll asking EVERy single Russian what they thought about Stalin, I mean obviously because THAT makes a ton of sense. And nevermind that everyone today lived during the Great Purge...that was in the 1930's. I mean, they'd have to have been really old now, which means only a minority would have actually lived during his rule and have been old enough to actually know what was going on. People that voted him probably hate their government now and think that it would have been better having radical change. Not that I can understand that mentality, but then again, I live in a democratic country. Seriously did the government force you to answer with the threat of violence, or was it just some dumb polll that people can manipulate? I mean, did they have a similar poll in Germany where a great majority of Germans wished that Hitler would be leader again? And Brick, as soon as someone says something you agree with that comes without any evidence, you automatically think "obviously this is right!". Lol, no I didn't learn these facts from my "capitalist" history textbooks, I learn a great deal from credible university sites and from accounts of actual Gulag survivors. I mean why would the west just make this up? Seriously if its to make communism seem very horrible, why didn't they make up statatics up on other communist leaders? Like how many people does the west imagine Khruschev killed? From my history books, I've heard none. My history books denounce some previous American actions, so dont think it has a Western bias or anything.

[forward]

Also I'm pretty sure Stalin's daughter could give you some real truth. She's alive now, ask her. She denounced her father's crimes.

[Demogorgon]

What Americans did to Japan was to end to the war. In Afghanistan and Iraq to liberate them. End of story.
If you believe that fairy tale, why not believe the one about Uncle Joe being a nice benevolent leader?

If Stalin had been a Tsar, he would have gotten a pretty good historical press, he industrialised his country, turned it into a major world power, won a major war that expanded the national territory and ruled in a suitably bloody manner.

I'm not a fan of Tsars though.

[Comrade Rage]

And nevermind that everyone today lived during the Great Purge...that was in the 1930's. I mean, they'd have to have been really old now, which means only a minority would have actually lived during his rule and have been old enough to actually know what was going on.
Please, please try and string together a choerent sentence to tell me what you were trying to say there.:confused:

People that voted him probably hate their government now and think that it would have been better having radical change.
Yes, that's my point. People are still accepting and welcoming of socialism there.

Those people are some of the smartest, brightest minds in the world because they understand that the bourgeosie's only counter-argument to socialism is the propaganda lies about Stalin and the USSR.

Not that I can understand that mentality, but then again, I live in a democratic country.
No you don't, you live in a bourgeosie dictatorship.

Seriously did the government force you to answer with the threat of violence, or was it just some dumb polll that people can manipulate?So, let me get this: a poll is only credible with the threat of violence?:blink:


I mean, did they have a similar poll in Germany where a great majority of Germans wished that Hitler would be leader again?
No.

And Brick, as soon as someone says something you agree with that comes without any evidence, you automatically think "obviously this is right!".
No, nimrod. I've read the news stories about this opinion poll already.

Lol, no I didn't learn these facts from my "capitalist" history textbooks, I learn a great deal from credible university sites and from accounts of actual Gulag survivors.
Because it's not like the bourgeosie controls the universities, right?:rolleyes::laugh:

In his book, Another View of Stalin, Ludo Martens tore apart the anecdotal evidence provided by your 'actual GULAG survivors' and revealed these 'testimonies' to be little more than the nonsensical ramblings of Nazi sympathizers, czar sympathizers, and lumpen criminals.

Unlike the compelling evidence provided by REAL victims of atrocities such as the victims of the Nazis, the 'GULAG survivors' details are all sketchy, their stories are mismatched and lack substantial proof such as names and locations, etc.

I mean why would the west just make this up?
Uhhh... to discredit their enemies? Ever heard of the tactic of atrocity propaganda-the tactic of making up fake atrocities to justify war? It was used extensively during WWI, and by the same people, later on, to attempt to discredit Stalin and his important work.

Seriously if its to make communism seem very horrible, why didn't they make up statatics up on other communist leaders?They did.


Like how many people does the west imagine Khruschev killed? From my history books, I've heard none. My history books denounce some previous American actions, so dont think it has a Western bias or anything.Big shock-Khrushchev gets a pass in capitalist history books.

I'll break it down for you: Khrushchev purged the government of Stalin-supporters in a campaign known as de-Stalinization. Khrushchev quickly moved to eliminate his political rivals, Lavrentii Beria and Georgii Malenkov. Beria was shot on trumped up charges, and eliminated from history.
Malenkov was forced into exile by the murderous Khrushchev regime.

[RedAnarchist]

Also I'm pretty sure Stalin's daughter could give you some real truth. She's alive now, ask her. She denounced her father's crimes.

Wow, reactionaries always claim that leftists are just rebelling against their parents, but when it actually happens, they support it.

[Bud Struggle]

Wow, reactionaries always claim that leftists are just rebelling against their parents, but when it actually happens, they support it.

That was pretty clever. :lol: