Guilt - and capitalism

[Jaha]

One thing I will never understand is how capitalists sleep at night.

If any of you money-loving blind patriots can explain justice in a capitalist system, that would be great. If you could explain why two people of equal mental and physical capabilities can live lives of different quality. One can graduate from harvard and have the whole world in awe of his brain, while the other, dies at 20 years old in a sweatshop making the toys to be enjoyed by America.

Where is justice in a capitalist system? If I can buy justice, is it really justice?

All I want is justice and until a mother-fucking greedman can show me justice in a capitalist world, I will wave the red flag.

[Sirion]

Adam Smith said that "A dollar is like a vote. When you spend it, you vote for the company you spend it on". This, better that anything else shows how the capitalistic world works. It IS, therefore, a sort of democracy, because a dollar can be a vote.

However, the number of dollars people have is so varying that while the vast majority has all but nothing to say, a few huge capitalists practically rules nations.

The gap between rich and poor is growing larger every day. THIS is the justice, the democracy of capitalism. I must quote Lenin here. "Democracy today is like in ancient Greece; Freedom for the slave owners"

[kylie]

null

[Larissa]

If capies read this article on "The Capitalist Revolution in Latin America" I believe they wouldn't sleep so relaxed any more.
Check it, it's worth: http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj16n3-7.html

Ooopppssss, I've just realized that they will sleep carelessly because they're capies! = they don't give a sh... 'bout human beings, they're just concerned about the "virtues of cashflow"!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Jaha on 4:23 am on Jan. 23, 2003
One thing I will never understand is how capitalists sleep at night.

If any of you money-loving blind patriots can explain justice in a capitalist system, that would be great. If you could explain why two people of equal mental and physical capabilities can live lives of different quality. One can graduate from harvard and have the whole world in awe of his brain, while the other, dies at 20 years old in a sweatshop making the toys to be enjoyed by America.

Where is justice in a capitalist system? If I can buy justice, is it really justice?

All I want is justice and until a mother-fucking greedman can show me justice in a capitalist world, I will wave the red flag.


If you beleive that all people are born physically and mentally equal, then you truly are ignorant.

[truthaddict11]

why do you believe that? do you believe some people are born "supirior" to others

[Larissa]

Quote: from truthaddict11 on 5:22 pm on Jan. 23, 2003
why do you believe that? do you believe some people are born "supirior" to others I bet he sure thinks so.

[Capitalist Imperial]

I'm not being a bigot, or suggesting overall superiority, it is just a fact of nature.

Can you honestly tell me that heavyweght boxing champion Lennox Lewis is phyiscally equal to Woody Allen?

Can you tell me that every person on earth is born with the same mathematical aptitude as Albert Eistein?

That is the funamental theory of evolution, the strongest and smartest prevail to propogate the entire species to higher levels of strenghth and intelligence.

Honestly, We all have strenghts and weaknesses, but no one is exactly equal in all areas.

[Tkinter1]

"All I want is justice and until a mother-fucking greedman can show me justice in a capitalist world, I will wave the red flag."

Has the Red flag brought you closer to justice? Has it brought anyone closer to justice?

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 8:39 pm on Jan. 23, 2003)

[Anonymous]

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 1:41 am on Jan. 24, 2003)

[Sirion]

tkinter, indeed it has, even for YOU, I would dare to say without knowing you. The red flag (that means communism here) has given us all far more rights to the normal labourer than we would ever have without i (after all, if the proletariat had nothing to force the bourgoise with, why the latter one EVER act to the first's benefit?).

Jaha, I wave the flag next to you

[mentalbunny]

We may not all be as strong or as intelligent as each other but money should not limit our opportunities.

Obviously I don't think that a really thick person should end up going to University at oxford or anything, but I don't think someone should be prevented from going simply because they don't have the money, and the capitalist system prevents poor people from doing things because they do not have enough money (obviously British Unis aren't the best example as you can get some kinds of financial aid and you can go but you end up with a very heavy debt for several years afterwards). If you are clever and you want to, money should not prevent you from going to university. Right now I can't think of any other examples but I'm sure someone can.

I don't think I've made myself very clear, it's been a long day :sad:

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 9:45 pm on Jan. 23, 2003
We may not all be as strong or as intelligent as each other but money should not limit our opportunities.

Obviously I don't think that a really thick person should end up going to University at oxford or anything, but I don't think someone should be prevented from going simply because they don't have the money, and the capitalist system prevents poor people from doing things because they do not have enough money (obviously British Unis aren't the best example as you can get some kinds of financial aid and you can go but you end up with a very heavy debt for several years afterwards). If you are clever and you want to, money should not prevent you from going to university. Right now I can't think of any other examples but I'm sure someone can.

I don't think I've made myself very clear, it's been a long day :sad:

In America, one can receive a full acedemic scholarship to a college for scholastic or other aptitudes.

[Stormin Norman]

why do you believe that? do you believe some people are born "supirior" to others

I know for a fact that I am superior to most the people who post on this bulletin board. Was I born that way? I am not sure. This question gets back to the age old debate of nature vs. nurture. Did my parents do an exeptional job in teaching me the virtues of education and self-reliance, or was I born for success? Excellent questions you raise!

[timbaly]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 4:52 pm on Jan. 24, 2003

In America, one can receive a full acedemic scholarship to a college for scholastic or other aptitudes.


Thats true but you have to be the very best of the best in order to get them and there are more qualified poor kids than there are FULL scholarships. I was accepted to a school in Brooklyn, called Brooklyn Tech it's considered to be one of the best schools in New York City. During the oreintation they told us that over 35% of the students were given scholarships to Ivy League schools but less than 10% go. This is mainly due to the fact that they only recieved partial scholarships and couldn't offord to pay the rest bill.

[Thine Stalin]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 8:37 pm on Jan. 23, 2003
"All I want is justice and until a mother-fucking greedman can show me justice in a capitalist world, I will wave the red flag."

Has the Red flag brought you closer to justice? Has it brought anyone closer to justice?

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 8:39 pm on Jan. 23, 2003)


Sure it has, the enemies of the people in russia were brought to justice following stalin's election, (and he beat trotskey 3-1)

[Thine Stalin]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 9:57 pm on Jan. 23, 2003

why do you believe that? do you believe some people are born "supirior" to others

I know for a fact that I am superior to most the people who post on this bulletin board. Was I born that way? I am not sure. This question gets back to the age old debate of nature vs. nurture. Did my parents do an exeptional job in teaching me the virtues of education and self-reliance, or was I born for success? Excellent questions you raise!




If only it hadn't been only the capitalist who weren't born superior...

But of course we all know stalinists are the most enlightened and vastly superior to EVERYONE here.

[Anonymous]

As Jefferson once said, "There is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents." Some are simply more virtuous, more talented, and all around more intelligent than others. As such, they tend to rise to the top.

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 4:27 am on Jan. 24, 2003)

[Anonymous]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 4:16 am on Jan. 24, 2003

But of course we all know stalinists are the most enlightened and vastly superior to EVERYONE here.


Of course. :smile:

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 4:30 am on Jan. 24, 2003)

[Mazdak]

we are.

[timbaly]

yes Mazdak sounds 100% completely rational above all else :smile:



(Edited by timbaly at 8:48 pm on Jan. 24, 2003)

[Anonymous]

Quote: from feoric on 7:32 pm on Jan. 23, 2003

Quote: from Jaha on 4:23 am on Jan. 23, 2003
One thing I will never understand is how capitalists sleep at night.


I cant remember the exact name, psychotic something, but i learnt at college how some people find it hard relating what they do to things that affect people. so if they have to sack 200 workers, they wont be able to think that these people have families to support. but because of this, these peope rise to the top of business's.
Its caused from not enough contact during early childhood with parents. so with these being businessmen and all, its possible it continues in a family, once a member has it. so that would explain why nearly all right wing politicians are such cold bastards. they come from business backgrounds, and have developed that thing(still cant remember its name)
Im not saying all kids who have parents who work in business get this, its just a generalisation. its been a while anyway, so i cant remember the exact details of it.


So your basically saying that most people on the far right are steeped in some type of hereditary phsychosis? (if such a thing even exists) :rollseyes:

(Edited by Dark Capitalist at 7:00 am on Jan. 24, 2003)

[kylie]

Affectionless psychopathy is the proper term i think. yes dark capitalist, i do, it would explain a lot.

[Umoja]

So people in the Congo are mentally inferior to all Americans, that's why they are poor? Children who work in sweatshops in Uttar Pradesh, India are obviously not as well equipped as American kids?

Come on now. It's like an example of white privlege on a larger scale. If your born white on the planet you automatically have the best chance of doing something with your life, which is why I really pitty poor white people.

[IHP]

I believe this thread was begun incorrectly, utilising an unclear basis for comparison.

Perhaps this would suit better. Living within the same city is Mr X. and Mr. Y. (this is of course hypothetical, and is no measurement of actual brain power comparisons). Mr. X has a mental capacity of 80. Mr Y. has a mental capacity of 100. This equates to a more intelligent Mr. Y.

Mr. X has an output of 100 units, and Mr. Y has an output of 80 units. This equates to a harder working Mr. X.

Because of his lower mental capacity Mr. X will never be able to earn as much as the other, although he works harder than the lazy Mr. Y.

This is clearly unfair. All that separate the two men is one was simply born differently. Implement this en masse, and you have an unfair system that promotes top end laziness.

Exapand this further into less wealthy nations, and consider the macquialdoras. This is where poverty stricken Mexicans work in American owned factories just south of the Rio Grande. All that they did wrong was to be born in Mexico. They are paid so little that they cannot move away.

That's how I interpreted Jahas post. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

--IHP

[PaulDavidHewson]

That is so stupid.
Even in communism the intelligent have a higher-end job than someone of lower intelligence.
I don't see Mr. X with his IQ of 80 becomming head-rocket scientist in communism even though he works so damned hard all his life.

[mentalbunny]

IHP, I think you've misunderstood.

It is more like:

X has rich parents who cna afford to put him through school and college and are well connected so it isn't impossible to get X a nice job and set him safely on the career ladder and he can come into contact with women who will earn decent wages, albeit less than X as he is male, therfore earns more if he is living in the US. Then X and his wife will have enough money to do the same for theri kids.

Then consider Y, he is more intelligent than X and is prepared to work harder but he comes from a single-parent family. His mum works her arse off somewhere and earns very little. He can't afford to go to college so even though he has the potential to get a really good job his circumstances prevent him from going too far. Y ends up in a dead end job, totally unfulfilled and depressed.

OK this is probably worst case scenario, but I think this is more what the thread is about.

[PaulDavidHewson]

Y can always take a loan or/and after school job to pay for tuition or maybe he get's a scholarship?

But I know what you are talking about, My own father couldn't go to school because his parents were divorced and he had to work to support his own family. (yes, it also happens in the netherlands)
But looking at my parents now I can't say they've done bad with total assets(house, car, etc) near $500.000 dollars.

mr. y can show a lot of talent for his job and get in-job schooling and such and then don't end up in a dead end job, unless mr. y is a bit lazy and doesn't give a hoot and chooses the easy-but-depressed way out.

[PaulDavidHewson]

or Y could join the army and follow a tuition there and let uncle sam pay for everything and when Y comes out of the army, he'll be an educated man with a respectable background and can easily get a job to his liking.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Mazdak on 1:29 am on Jan. 24, 2003
we are.


you are merely one step above the liberals, only because you understand the true nature of communism in real-world application

hardly on par with an American capitalist, though

[Beccie]

I also wonder how capitalists sleep at night.

I don't know how people can view themselves as being superior. Political views don’t make people superior. Superiority is a perception, If you think you are superior it does not meant that you are. People may not be equal in strength and mental ability but that does not justify the capitalist system or the miss-treatment of people that are viewed as lesser beings. I have often wondered of Cappies/Stalinists feel any compassion towards the people that they view as being below them.


(Edited by Commie01 at 1:23 am on Jan. 25, 2003)

[IHP]

Bono, you have misunderstood what I was saying.

"Even in communism the intelligent have a higher-end job than someone of lower intelligence.
I don't see Mr. X with his IQ of 80 becomming head-rocket scientist in communism even though he works so damned hard all his life."

You are using a specific occupation that requires much more intelligence than I have used in my example. Despite this, you further mix up my point. The lazy worker is being paid much more than the hard worker due to mental capacity. Of course you cannot have people with insufficient mental capacity in occupations such as you used.

"mr. y can show a lot of talent for his job and get in-job schooling and such and then don't end up in a dead end job, unless mr. y is a bit lazy and doesn't give a hoot and chooses the easy-but-depressed way out."

I wish I lived in the same world as you. Although this is a possibility, it is unlikely. The man or woman in charge of Mr. Y would only in rare cases provide him with those oppurtunities. The more education he has, the more they would have to pay him. Also, you have forgotten that Mr. Y is in fact a hard worker, So that last sentence is null.

Mentalbunny,

that is good scenario you have used. I went off track with mine, I was trying to get to the Mexico scenario but it took a lot of hoorah to get there.

--IHP

[mentalbunny]

IHP, thanks.

PDH, I think you are touching on the problems but I will highlight them.

Y will have a tough life and may or may not get somewhere and X will have it easier. Is this right? I know that sometimes things cannot always be right but I think in this case we can make a difference. I think Y has a right to be taught in a school in decent repair with new enough textbooks and enough teachers, Y also has a right to decent healthcare, or Y may never reach working age!