San Francisco anarchists desecrate monument to internationalism

[Saorsa]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/97/International_Brigades_poster3.jpg
http://comradealastair.wordpress.com/2008/07/20/san-francisco-anarchists-desecrate-monument-to-internationalism/
[/URL]
Saturday, July 19 2008 @ 10:49 PM CDT

Contributed by: Anonymous
Views: 110
Direct Action to commemorate the beginning of the Spanish Civil War the right way...July 19th is the anniversary of the beginning of the Spanish Civil War in 1936 -- the beginning of the last significant attempt at an anti-capitalist revolution in the period of revolutions that began in Mexico in 1915 and accelerated after the Russian Revolution of 1917. The revolutionary movement in Spain was defeated by a counter-revolution spearheaded by the Stalinist Soviet Union and it's global puppets and public relations hacks. (See George Orwells's 'Homage to Catalonia' for the best brief introduction to the events surrounding the revolution and counter-revolution in Spain.)
A public art work celebrating the role played by the Abraham Lincoln Battalion, the US dupes of and cannon fodder for the Stalinist counter-revolution in Spain from 1936 to 1939, was dedicated this past May on San Francisco's Embarcadero, behind the fountain on Justin Herman Plaza at the foot of Market Street. Sometime this past week, some person or persons unknown gave this monument to the one of the big lies of 20th century history an appropriate makeover. The Stalinist art work was grafittied with the message, "Viva Durruti Y Orwell," in what appears to be red and black spray paint.


The Abraham Lincoln Brigade was the name of the workers, students, farmers and intellectuals who left their homes in the United States to fight fascism, and protect the democratically elected Republican regime ruling Spain at the time.

It was largely organised by the American Communist Party, but that was by no means the only radical organisation with members present in the Brigade's ranks - there were also members from many other socialist and anarchist groups, including the anarchist-dominated [URL="http://www.iww.org/"]IWW (http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20080719224947226). This makes the anarchist vandals actions espescially ironic, and espescially disgusting. A further point of irony is that one notable member, George Sossenko, also fought in the Durruti Column, led by Durruti himself! I'm unsure whether Durruti would approve of desecrating a monument to one of his soldiers.

The Abraham Lincoln Brigade is thought to be the first racially integrated military unit in American history. It is also thought to have been the first military unit in which white soldiers were commanded by a black man, Communist Party member Oliver Law. (http://www.worldhistoryblog.com/2006/07/oliver-law.html) For a bunch of counter-revolutionary Stalinist dupes, these guys sure had a progressive line on racial issues! I'm sure it was just a mask for their hidden evil agenda.

The Irish Volunteers also joined this Brigade, preferring to the British one on nationalist grounds. They formed a group within the Brigade called the Connolly Column, after James Connolly, martyred leader of the Easter Uprising and one of the founding fathers of Irish Republican Socialism.

The soldiers of the Abraham Lincoln brigade, as well as the other volunteers from around the world, went against the express orders of their governments and the League of Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Intervention_Committee)(or League of Robbers as Vladimir Lenin rightly called it). They knew that there would likely be legal consequences for them if and when they returned to their home countries, but they travelled to Spain anyway, in the spirit of internationalism with the Spanish people and their struggle against fascism, feudalism and capitalism. An example of the consequences they suffered for their solidarity with the Spanish masses is the indictment of 16 alleged Communists and left-wing radicals for having recruited volunteers to join the Brigade. (http://www.stjohns.edu/media/3/0ff1ac2d1d54420cb2e56273a371a12e.pdf)

The Brigade was withdrawn from action in Spring 1938, by then Prime Minister Negrin, the representative of the counter-revolutionary current that had by that time completely hijacked the struggle in Spain, and was aimed at defeating the socialist revolution that had begun with the advent of Civil War (read Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell for a good account of this process - despite his overall reactionary character, this particular book is a useful text and was written before he completely capitulated to bourgeois ideology).

The volunteers who fought and died in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade did so because of their dedication to progressive, communist, anarchist, and/or generally left wing ideals, and their opposition to fascism and the military dictatorship Franco aimed at setting up (and in the end did set up... but that's another story). They were noble, courageous, and became renowned throughout Spain for their heroism in battle, particularly during the Battle of Madrid, in which they played a leading role.

Regardless of the anarchist's criticisms of the Comintern policy at the time (which I would probably share to a large extent), the role of the Spanish Communist Party and the moderate forces in the derailment of the Spanish Revolution and the ultimate victory of fascism, that does not justify they're desecration of this monument. They're beef should not be with the individual soldiers, or even with the Brigade itself - it should be with the leaders of the USSR, the Comintern and the Republican government.

Scrawling graffiti on a monument to martyrs who died in the defence of freedom, and in battle against fascism, only makes you look like a jerk. I very much doubt the anarchists would be happy if I scrawled "Viva Marx y Lenin" on Kropotkin's grave - what gives them the right to insult the memory of our dead comrades?

To the immature douchebag who desecrated this monument - get a life. Move out of you're parent's basement, and stop spitting on the graves of people who accomplished more for the cause of humanity in one hour than you will in the rest of you're life.

I have nothing but contempt for the people who commited this act, and disgust at the way they devalue the word "leftist" by continuing to apply it to themselves after they piss on the graves of our movement's martyred dead.

[RedAnarchist]

So? Theres graffiti on Emma Goldman's grave. Shrines really are popular with Stalinists, from your reaction.

[Ismail]

So? Theres graffiti on Emma Goldman's grave. Shrines really are popular with Stalinists, from your reaction.Why not just say Leninism? Being an anarchist, it makes no sense to act all like "Yeah, Lenin was an asshole, but OMG STALIN!... Trotsky was alright, I guess. For a Leninist."

[#FF0000]

Being an anarchist, it makes no sense to act all like "Yeah, Lenin was an asshole, but OMG STALIN!... Trotsky was alright, I guess. For a Leninist."

Good thing we don't act like that, then. :/

[YKTMX]

What a shower of bastards. I hope the anarchist members are going to condemn this.

[Red October]

That's fucked up and unacceptable. Whatever you think of the Communist Party, the members of the International Brigades were heroes. This kind of shit action on the anniversary of the war is ridiculous and completely sectarian. Anarchists fought in these brigades too, after all.

[Ismail]

Good thing we don't act like that, then. :/If you say 'Stalinist', you are in fact glorifying Trotskyism since the only reason 'Stalinism' (as a word) exists is because Trots considered Marxism-Leninism (the official ideology of the USSR) to have been 'Stalinist' and thus anti-Marxist. If you consider Trotsky to have been better than Stalin (note that Lenin had no love for anarchism), then that shows either how far Trotskyism today has strayed from Trotsky's beliefs, or how bullshit Trotsky's beliefs were to begin with that he gets anarchists on his side.

[rednordman]

Sad, Sad Bastards (the people who vandalised the monument NOT you people)... :laugh: I mean do you think anybody is really going to take much notice of this pathetic 'statement' anyhow. It’s like they have done this believing that the whole of the world is all of a sudden going to think OMG Stalin/Lenin/Trotsky (Basically Communism in general) were arseholes, lets all become anarchists. In a nutshell this does absolutely nothing positive for both the anarchist and communist movements. I sincerely hope that this doesn’t get much coverage anywhere as it will make us all look like twats.

[KurtFF8]

If you say 'Stalinist', you are in fact glorifying Trotskyism since the only reason 'Stalinism' (as a word) exists is because Trots considered Marxism-Leninism (the official ideology of the USSR) to have been 'Stalinist' and thus anti-Marxist. If you consider Trotsky to have been better than Stalin (note that Lenin had no love for anarchism), then that shows either how far Trotskyism today has strayed from Trotsky's beliefs, or how bullshit Trotsky's beliefs were to begin with that he gets anarchists on his side.


You don't have to be a supporter of Trotsky to be opposed to "Stalinism". That false dichotomy is outdated and inaccurate.

[MarxSchmarx]

I am confused. Who did this and how do you know? Has this "Worker's Memory Project" claimed responsibility? Orwell fought for the Trots in that war so it could have been Trots, and hell it could even have been a confused deranged Stalinist stirring up shit.

Still, deep-seated mutual mistrust among leftists of different stripes is quite understandable given our history. Having said that, of course it was a dumb, sectarian antic that wins no friends and is a waste of time.

[Ismail]

You don't have to be a supporter of Trotsky to be opposed to "Stalinism". That false dichotomy is outdated and inaccurate.True, but the fact that anarchists don't see them all as the same (only at varying degrees of bad) and single out Stalin as the "really bad one" means that Trots are doing something wrong.

But yeah, we can stop arguing about this so the thread can get back on topic.

[spartan]

If this really was Anarchists then all it will do is reinforce the negative stereotype of Anarchists as teenage kids who are just out to vandalise and dont give a shit about anything.

Those brave men in the international brigade gave there lives to fight Fascism in Spain and this is how they are repaid, absolutely disgraceful.

No monument to people who fought against tyranny should ever be vandalised IMO.

Is nothing sacred in this world anymore? Why cant certain people just let things be instead of always poking their noses in where they aren't wanted?

[Saorsa]

I am confused. Who did this and how do you know? Has this "Worker's Memory Project" claimed responsibility? Orwell fought for the Trots in that war so it could have been Trots, and hell it could even have been a confused deranged Stalinist stirring up shit.


I'm assuming it was carried out by some anarcho-kiddy liberal types, considering the two names they've put there. The info came from San Fran Indymedia, I put the link on my blog page.

[Saorsa]

So? Theres graffiti on Emma Goldman's grave. Shrines really are popular with Stalinists, from your reaction.


And I'm not endorsing that kind of bullshit - I think it's wrong. You don't seem to feel the same way...

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Fucking disgrace

[Decolonize The Left]

Firstly, I believe all the members of this brigade are dead, so there's no need to get in a huff and puff about 'hurting their names' or whatever. It's just a statue...

Secondly, I'm astonished that we jump to the conclusion that this is a sectarian group or something. It's most likely a couple of folks who do not understand the Spanish Civil War, or the Brigade, or anarchism/communism... so we can let it go because it's based out of ignorance, not educated arguments.

And thirdly, it's just a statue... seriously people...

- August

[Module]

If this really was Anarchists then all it will do is reinforce the negative stereotype of Anarchists as teenage kids who are just out to vandalise and dont give a shit about anything.
This and ...

Secondly, I'm astonished that we jump to the conclusion that this is a sectarian group or something. It's most likely a couple of folks who do not understand the Spanish Civil War, or the Brigade, or anarchism/communism... so we can let it go because it's based out of ignorance, not educated arguments.
This.

But also, if not just a couple of anarchist kids, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't anarchists at all, but as said by MarxSchmarx "a confused deranged Stalinist stirring up shit".
I really wouldn't. As in, this just seems a little too thoughtless to me ... ?

[KurtFF8]

Firstly, I believe all the members of this brigade are dead, so there's no need to get in a huff and puff about 'hurting their names' or whatever. It's just a statue...

So because they're dead we shouldn't be respectful of something dedicated to them?


Secondly, I'm astonished that we jump to the conclusion that this is a sectarian group or something. It's most likely a couple of folks who do not understand the Spanish Civil War, or the Brigade, or anarchism/communism... so we can let it go because it's based out of ignorance, not educated arguments.

Indeed.


And thirdly, it's just a statue... seriously people...

- August

So that means that vandalizing and desecrating it is ok no matter what?

[Red October]

Firstly, I believe all the members of this brigade are dead, so there's no need to get in a huff and puff about 'hurting their names' or whatever. It's just a statue...

Secondly, I'm astonished that we jump to the conclusion that this is a sectarian group or something. It's most likely a couple of folks who do not understand the Spanish Civil War, or the Brigade, or anarchism/communism... so we can let it go because it's based out of ignorance, not educated arguments.

And thirdly, it's just a statue... seriously people...

- August

Well, it's not "just about a statue". It doesn't do any damage to the revolutionary left if some assholes vandalize it, but it's still a ridiculously shitty and disrespectful thing to do. It's just a cheap way to say "fuck you" to a bunch of guys who may have had the wrong idea about Stalin, but they still left relatively comfortable (compared to a trench outside Madrid) lives to fight Fascism. They weren't Soviet bureaucrats or KGB agents, they were generally regular working class people who saw the need to oppose fascism.

And as an anarchist, I hope the rest of us don't feel like this is acceptable.

*

[Saorsa]

And as an anarchist, I hope the rest of us don't feel like this is acceptable.


And as a Marxist, I'm glad to see that those people don't represent the anarchist movement as a whole.



Firstly, I believe all the members of this brigade are dead, so there's no need to get in a huff and puff about 'hurting their names' or whatever. It's just a statue...


Actually it's a wall with photos of the martyred volunteers on it, not a statue.

And the point is that the monument represents the memory and the legacy of the young working class people that gave their lives in the struggle against fascism - to scrawl crude graffiti over that is slandering and denigrating this, and should be hugely offensive to any genuine revolutionary.


Secondly, I'm astonished that we jump to the conclusion that this is a sectarian group or something. It's most likely a couple of folks who do not understand the Spanish Civil War, or the Brigade, or anarchism/communism... so we can let it go because it's based out of ignorance, not educated arguments.

Well, I would assume they know a wee bit about it if they're able to trot out the names Durruti and Orwell. I don't see what you're getting at by saying we should let them off for this because their ideas are ignorant... I'm not denying that at all, but the fact is that what they've done is inexcusable, regardless of why they did it. It clearly was a sectarian attack, they wrote the names Durruti and Orwell on the monument! They made it perfectly clear whose ideas they identiufy with, and they attacked the people who didn't. They may not be experts, but they've obviously read at the very least a bit of information on the subject. This is an attack.


And thirdly, it's just a statue... seriously people...

See first paragraph. It's not the statue, it's what the statue represents.

[ipollux]

Eh...

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

*shrugs* Sounds like stupid punk kids with too much free time. It's rather disrespectful to the families of the veterans. Though for all we know this could be some cop looking to stir up shit.

[Die Neue Zeit]

From p. 87 of Lars Lih's Lenin Rediscovered:


Thus, the merger narrative laid the foundation for a two-front polemical war aimed against all who defend the continued isolation of either socialism or the worker movement. The technical term within Social-Democratic discourse for the effort to keep the worker-class struggle free from socialism was Nur-Gewerkschaftlerei, "trade-unions-only-ism."

Quoting Lenin:


For the spontaneist working-class movement is tred iunionizm [yellow-trade-union reductionism], is Nur-Gewerkschaftlerei, and tred iunionizm means the ideological enslavement of the workers by the bourgeoisie

Back to Lih:


A similar "Nur" term could have been coined for bomb-throwing revolutionaries who continued to think that it was a waste of time to try to propagandise and educate the worker class as a whole prior to the revolution.

[Decolonize The Left]

Actually it's a wall with photos of the martyred volunteers on it, not statue.

I wasn't clear about this.


And the point is that the monument represents the memory and the legacy of the young working class people that gave their lives in the struggle against fascism - to scrawl crude graffiti over that is slandering and denigrating this, and should be hugely offensive to any genuine revolutionary.

Your attempt to classify "genuine revolutionaries" based off their reaction to graffiti is rather pathetic...


Well, I would assume they know a wee bit about it if they're able to trot out the names Durruti and Orwell. I don't see what you're getting at by saying we should let them off for this because their ideas are ignorant... I'm not denying that at all, but the fact is that what they've done is inexcusable, regardless of why they did it. It clearly was a sectarian attack, they wrote the names Durruti and Orwell on the monument! They made it perfectly clear whose ideas they identiufy with, and they attacked the people who didn't. They may not be experts, but they've obviously read at the very least a bit of information on the subject. This is an attack.

:lol: Let them off? What are you going to do, go launch a full investigation gathering fingerprints and shoe samples? What are you talking about? "This is an attack." Ok, but it doesn't matter. There will be no response from 'the left' because we don't know who did this in the first place. I think you're reading a bit too deep into this whole affair...


See first paragraph. It's not the statue, it's what the statue represents.

Yeah, and I don't need a giant symbol to inform me of the many who have sacrificed in the past for many different causes. I don't intend to view these people as martyrs, nor do I wish to turn them into godlike figures and rally around the proverbial cross.

They were people who did what they thought was right - let us do the same.

- August

[Dros]

You don't have to be a supporter of Trotsky to be opposed to "Stalinism". That false dichotomy is outdated and inaccurate.

That's true. But if you have a picture of Che as your avatar and you oppose Stalinism, that does make you an idiot.

[chimx]

Monuments don't exist for the dead, they are for the living.

[Module]

Monuments don't exist for the dead
Yes they do ...

[Trystan]

Wow . . . that's pathetic. Not to mention completely fucking useless. I'm probably closer to anarchism than I am Stalinism, but those "dupes" as they call them, they were fighting the fascists too. Are they not deserved of a little respect? :(

[Wanted Man]

I am confused. Who did this and how do you know? Has this "Worker's Memory Project" claimed responsibility? Orwell fought for the Trots in that war so it could have been Trots, and hell it could even have been a confused deranged Stalinist stirring up shit.
Yes, that's a good explanation. After all, trotskyists and stalinists constantly go around San Francisco with spraycans, trying to pin petty vandalism on anarchists... :rolleyes: At least try to, you know, click the link. It leads to the Infoshop article, including a few approving comments (and two disapproving...).

Anyway, this is pathetic. I wonder what would happen if some scrawny punk got to meet an SCW veteran face to face. The 90-year-old man would probably make him piss his black jeans with chains and circle-a symbols, courtesy of Hot Topic for $150 because he's a real rebel.

[Saorsa]

Good to see the vast majority of people disapprove of this vandalism.

[KurtFF8]

That's true. But if you have a picture of Che as your avatar and you oppose Stalinism, that does make you an idiot.

I never said that I'm 100% opposed to Stalinism

[Colonello Buendia]

I have my criticisms of International brigade strategy against the CNT and POUM but I genuinely believe that the brigadiers were heroes (cept the commanders in some circumstances) they were working class volunteers who left their homes and went to war to stop the fascists. so what if they went believing Stalin was good!, until Kruschev most leftists did. the fact is that the wackjobs who did this desicrated a memorial to workers who went to fight for a just cause. Red October said it best I must say. If those graffitiers were anarchists then shame on them way to fuck up the cause.:mad::cursing::thumbdown:

[MarxSchmarx]

I am confused. Who did this and how do you know? Has this "Worker's Memory Project" claimed responsibility? Orwell fought for the Trots in that war so it could have been Trots, and hell it could even have been a confused deranged Stalinist stirring up shit. I'm assuming it was carried out by some anarcho-kiddy liberal types, considering the two names they've put there. The info came from San Fran Indymedia, I put the link on my blog page.

I dunno.

I did read the indymedia link you posted, and also googled the "Worker's memory project" and nothing came up except this story. The fact that it was posted on indymedia by a cryptic organization makes your assumption fair, but prudence dictates we postpone ascribing blame on anarchists and demanding individual anarchists renounce such "anar-kiddy" behavior until more information comes to light.

[Honggweilo]

too sad for comment on ..... i hope someone scabs bigtime on the fucking idiot who did it

[The Author]

This is not the first time Anarchists have desecrated memorials to revolutionaries. In 2005, Anarchists desecrated the James Connolly memorial in Dublin by spray-painting graffiti on it.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/69655?comment_order=asc

And some of the memorials to the fallen in the Haymarket riots of Chicago have been vandalized by Anarchists as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Riot_Monument.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Haymarket_Memorial_Plaque.jpg


Just like on those occasions, this action deserves nothing but scorn. Whoever says this is "no big deal" is seriously demented.

[Saorsa]

Who the fuck would draw on a memorial to James Connolly? What kind of scummy fuckwit does a thing like that? Way to go, anarcho-kiddy, I'm sure a powerful mass movement will emerge in response to you're senseless act of vandalism. Fucking hell.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Should [serious] anarchists re-label themselves? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/should-anarchists-re-t84452/index.html)

[Red October]

And some of the memorials to the fallen in the Haymarket riots of Chicago have been vandalized by Anarchists as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Riot_Monument.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Haymarket_Memorial_Plaque.jpg


Just like on those occasions, this action deserves nothing but scorn. Whoever says this is "no big deal" is seriously demented.

To be fair, the graffiti on the Haymarket monument is more a protest against the state's attempt to distort and claim ownership of that cause.

[Luís Henrique]

Brilliant move. Now people are really really really going to choose better which brigade they will join when trying to support a revolution abroad, lest their tombs and the monuments in their remembrance be desecrated seventy years later...!

Luís Henrique

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

This is not the first time Anarchists have desecrated memorials to revolutionaries. In 2005, Anarchists desecrated the James Connolly memorial in Dublin by spray-painting graffiti on it.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/69655?comment_order=asc

And some of the memorials to the fallen in the Haymarket riots of Chicago have been vandalized by Anarchists as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Riot_Monument.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Haymarket_Memorial_Plaque.jpg


Just like on those occasions, this action deserves nothing but scorn. Whoever says this is "no big deal" is seriously demented.

The haymarket memorial isn't a memorial to anarchists, killed but to the "tragedy" ie to the cops. They used to have a monument explicitly about the cops, but it was blown up so often that they stopped trying.

[KurtFF8]

The haymarket memorial isn't a memorial to anarchists, killed but to the "tragedy" ie to the cops. They used to have a monument explicitly about the cops, but it was blown up so often that they stopped trying.

Were the monuments the Weathermen blew up cop monuments?

[Dros]

I never said that I'm 100% opposed to Stalinism

I don't care!

[RedAnarchist]

too sad for comment on ..... i hope someone scabs bigtime on the fucking idiot who did it

You would grass on someone just for vandalism?

[RedAnarchist]

Were the monuments the Weathermen blew up cop monuments?

If they were, then they were right to blow them up.

[Saorsa]

You would grass on someone just for vandalism?

I wouldn't. But I'd definitely kick their ass, and spray paint "Viva Marx y Lenin" all over their house, their car, their furniture etc



If they were, then they were right to blow them up.



Agree totally, and to be honest I agree with the vandalism of the second Haymarket memorial - as others have pointed out, it's partly an attempt to distort what actually happened, and partly a memorial to the pigs.

However, what the fuck kind of reason could you possiblyh have for defacing a monument to James Connolly? I wouldn't grass you in to the RUC for doing that, but I sure would tell the local INLA unit!

[The Author]

The destruction of the Haymarket cop memorial is not what bothers me. That I support. What bothers me is the desecration of the Haymarket Labor Memorials which is what I was referring to in my post, along with the statue of Connolly, and the original issue in question: the defacing of the Abe Lincoln Brigade memorial in San Francisco. Why feel compelled to take such action? What does this achieve? All that happens is that a monument is defaced, and the money and effort that people devoted to dedicating these memorials is wasted. There is absolutely nothing productive about tagging a monument merely to cause a sectarian wedge.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

The destruction of the Haymarket cop memorial is not what bothers me. That I support. What bothers me is the desecration of the Haymarket Labor Memorials which is what I was referring to in my post, along with the statue of Connolly, and the original issue in question: the defacing of the Abe Lincoln Brigade memorial in San Francisco. Why feel compelled to take such action? What does this achieve? All that happens is that a monument is defaced, and the money and effort that people devoted to dedicating these memorials is wasted. There is absolutely nothing productive about tagging a monument merely to cause a sectarian wedge.


There is only one labor memorial. The second image you posted was from the updated official memorial, a work that distorts history. Though I find it weird you should care what anarchists do to monuments erected for anarchists by anarchists.

[KurtFF8]

I don't care!

If you don't care then why did you bring it up?

[Dros]

If you don't care then why did you bring it up?

Because a kid with a Che avatar bashing Stalin is funny as hell.

[Chapter 24]

This vandalism does nothing to help the movement. Whoever did this is obviously deranged and obviously has no idea what the Abraham Lincoln Brigade was and what it stood for. Fighting fascism is a noble cause and not something to be looked down upon.

[Jazzratt]

I smell RAAN like dickery.

[Dros]

I smell RAAN like dickery.

Me too.

[KurtFF8]

Because a kid with a Che avatar bashing Stalin is funny as hell.

Where exactly was I bashing Stalin?

[YSR]

I think that the whole thing was obviously really stupid (an anarchist who needs to cite Orwell, of all people, for why Stalinism sucks is a wannabe).

But I also can't believe the amount of space on radical internet spaces this has taken up. Aren't there more productive issues to care about?

[Dros]

Where exactly was I bashing Stalin?

:lol:

The first post I quoted clearly implies your disapproval for "Stalinism". Your second post says you don't reject the entirety of "Stalinism" (thus implying that you reject most of it).

[Saorsa]

But I also can't believe the amount of space on radical internet spaces this has taken up. Aren't there more productive issues to care about?


Of course there are - but posting on Revleft is not exactly a productive use of one's time in the first place with regard to building a movement or whatever. It's a hobby, a forum for discussion and debate, and this petty bullshit really pissed me off. I'm not the only one either, a hell of a lot of people are outraged at this, and rightly so.

[KurtFF8]

:lol:

The first post I quoted clearly implies your disapproval for "Stalinism". Your second post says you don't reject the entirety of "Stalinism" (thus implying that you reject most of it).

What are you on about? My first post was just pointing out the false dichotomy between Trotskyism and "Stalinism" (which I even put in quotes). And was I implying that I reject most of it? Don't remeber going into that either.

[Dros]

What are you on about? My first post was just pointing out the false dichotomy between Trotskyism and "Stalinism" (which I even put in quotes). And was I implying that I reject most of it? Don't remeber going into that either.

I suggest you check the next post you made.;)

[KurtFF8]

I suggest you check the next post you made.;)

The one where I was talking about the monument to the Spanish Civil War fighters? Nothing about Stalin mentioned there.

[Red October]

I smell RAAN like dickery.

Are they even around anymore? I haven't heard anything about them for a long time. I'd like to keep it that way too.

[RedAnarchist]

Are they even around anymore? I haven't heard anything about them for a long time. I'd like to keep it that way too.

I last thing I heard about them was when the parking metres got smashed, and I think that was last year.

[Dros]

The one where I was talking about the monument to the Spanish Civil War fighters? Nothing about Stalin mentioned there.

Don't be thick.

This one:


I never said that I'm 100% opposed to Stalinism

Clearly implies that you are somewhat if not mostly opposed to "Stalinism".

[KurtFF8]

Clearly implies that you are somewhat if not mostly opposed to "Stalinism".

And that was said after you made your claim about my views of Stalinism.