To the victims of Communism, Lest we forget - communist holo

[Don Amodeo]

TO THE VICTIMS OF COMMUNISM, LEST WE FORGET
By Jeff Jacoby
The Boston Globe
December 7, 1995
In 1993, President Clinton signed Public Law 103-199, authorizing a memorial in Washington to those who died in the ``unprecedented imperial Communist holocaust'' that began in 1917. It is a memorial long overdue. And it is well-suited to Washington, the capital of the Free World and the headquarters of what President Kennedy called the ``long twilight struggle'' against the totalitarians of the Left. When completed, the Victims of Communism Memorial will include a museum documenting the crimes committed by the disciples of Marx and Lenin; original artifacts from the bitter night of Communist brutality (a piece of the Berlin Wall, a cell from the ``Hanoi Hilton''); and a database preserving the names of those wiped out in history's greatest slaughter.

Or at least as many of those names as can be identified. It is impossible that we shall ever know them all. Every one of the hundreds of thousands of Cossacks butchered on Lenin's orders in 1919? Every Miskito Indian killed in Nicaragua under the Sandinistas? Every Chinese peasant, all 2 million-plus of them, obliterated during Mao Zedong's ``land reform'' in the early 1950s? Impossible.

For pure murderous evil, there has never been a force to compare with Communism. The Nazis didn't come close. The Holocaust was uniquely malignant - never before or since did one people construct a vast industry of death for the sole purpose of rounding up and destroying every single member of another people. But the Nazis exterminated 11 million innocents; the Communist death toll surpasses 100 million. Nazi power lasted from 1933 to 1945. The Communist nightmare began in November 1917, and continues to this day.

Savagery has always been a hallmark of Communism. It is an ideology that requires the destruction of human beings. ``We have never rejected terror in principle,'' wrote Lenin in 1901, ``nor can we do so.''

Half a century later, even as he denounced the extremes to which his predecessors went, Nikita Khrushchev vowed that the terror so esteemed by Lenin would go on. ``The questioning of Stalin's terror,'' he cautioned the Twentieth Party Congress in 1956, ``may lead to the questioning of terror in general. But Bolshevism believes in the use of terror.'' Not long afterward, Khrushchev sent 3,000 Soviet tanks to crush the Hungarian freedom fighters.

Communism equals murder. Everywhere. Always.

In Ukraine, for example, where 7 million people were starved to death on the Kremlin's orders. ``If you go now to the Ukraine or the North Caucuses,'' wrote British journalist Malcolm Muggeridge in 1933, ``exceedingly beautiful countries and formerly amongst the most fertile in the world, you will find them like a desert; . . . no livestock or horses; villages deserted; peasants famished, often their bodies swollen, unutterably wretched.'' Farmers who took grain or vegetables from their own land were shot. Dead bodies littered the streets of Kharkov, the capital. ``It was,'' an eyewitness later recalled, ``as if the Black Death had passed through.''

Communism equaled murder in Ethiopia, where Mengistu Haile Mariam became dictator in 1977 and embarked on what he called his ``Red Terror.'' Tens of thousands were massacred, including the graduating seniors of almost every high school in Addis Ababa.

Communism equaled murder in North Vietnam as far back as 1945, when Ho Chi Minh resolved to annihilate his Nationalist rivals. ``It was appalling,'' recorded the historian Lucien Bodard. ``Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of men had been liquidated . . .. The intention was that horror and dread should extinguish the last trace of respect for them among the masses: Their execution had to be both shameful and terrifying. That was the reason for the mass executions of hundreds at once, the fields of prisoners buried alive, the harrows dragged over men buried up to the neck.''

Communism equaled murder in Tibet, where Mao's campaign to extirpate Buddhist culture turned 1.2 million Tibetans into corpses. It equaled murder in gentle Cambodia, where the bloodlust of the Khmer Rouge vaporized one-third of the nation in less than four years. It equaled murder in Cuba, in East Germany, in Afghanistan. From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic - murder. In the Gulag and the laogai - murder. At Tienanmen Square - murder. In the Korean War and the Vietnam War, in the forest of Katyn and the dungeons of the Lubyanka - murder.

One hundred million victims of Communism. And those are only the victims who were slain. It doesn't include those who were maimed or driven mad. Those whose lives went dark when a loved one was butchered. Those who spun out their years in potato queues, in vodka stupors, in daily fear. It doesn't include those who wasted 30 years as slaves in Siberia. The boat people who flung themselves into the South China Sea. The stifled poets, the gagged priests, the tormented refuseniks, the exiled democrats.

Rarely do we think of them, or of the hundred million. We forget how pathologically evil Communism has been, or why we poured so much blood and treasure into fighting the Cold War. It is to correct that amnesia that the Victims of Communism Memorial will be built.

[antieverything]

Wow...what a load of crap.

"Communism equals murder. Always. Everywhere."

What the fuck is that shit? What about the democratically elected Marxist governments that were replaced with murderous dictators?

The fact is authoritarianism is wrong in any form, capitalist or communist.

[mentalbunny]

The fact is authoritarianism is wrong in any form, capitalist or communist.

A lot of right wingers on the board seem to think that all communism is authoritarian, but it isn't, most of us are libertarians. We do not advocate totalitarian states, the state should serve the people because it is nothing without the people, etc. The reason why communism has failed so far is because it was always authoritarian.

[queen of diamonds]

Communism doesn't equal murder everywhere. Fanatics have the capacity to equal murder everywhere. Communist, capitalist or otherwise.

(Edited by queen of diamonds at 7:07 pm on Feb. 27, 2003)

[synthesis]

Korea: 3,000,000 innocent civilians dead
Iraq: 2,000,000 innocent civilians dead
Vietnam: 3,500,000 innocent civilians dead

The list goes on...

Cambodia: 2,000,000 innocent civilians dead
Laos: 500,000 innocent civilians dead
Indonesia: 1,000,000 innocent civilians dead

and on...

East Timor: 200,000 innocent civilians dead
Afghanistan: 1,000,000 innocent civilians dead
Nicaragua: 13,000 innocent civilians dead

and on.

Japan: 670,000 innocent civilians dead
Germany: 180,000 innocent civilians dead
Yugoslavia: 250,000 innocent civilians dead

Now for the big one...

Combined genocide of Native Americans and imported Africans:
90,000,000 innocent civilians dead.


...wow.

Always look at two sides of an issue, Don. Show some of that ol' Italian ingenuity. :)

[Michael De Panama]

Same old ignorance.

communism

n 1: a form of socialism that abolishes private ownership 2: a political theory favoring collectivism in a classless society

The concept of "authority", any authority, especially one that resorts to mass murder and oppression to hold its power, is completely contradictory to anything communism stands for, as the imposition of such authority would also bring about CLASS DIVISION.

Fuck the USSR.
Fuck Cambodia.
Fuck China.
Fuck Vietnam.

None of these countries you mentioned were even industrialized enough to have a strong enough proletariat to form a true communist revolution. So they compromised and created an elite vanguard party that is supposed to represent the proletariat. This isn't communist. It happened in Italy too, under Mussolini, coined as "fascism".

[Sol]

Once again, the author takes Stalinism and Maoism and writes it off as communism. There's a difference kiddies, between being a Communist and being a communist. It's a big one, so know your shit. We don't go around calling you all fascists (well, some of us do) because you're a cappie.

Someone on this board said it best: "Refuse to take responsibility for 20th century Communism. Volunteer to take responsibility for 21st century communism."

[mig1907]

Don Amodeo may I ask where do you live?

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 5:01 am on Jan. 17, 2003
Korea: 3,000,000 innocent civilians dead
Iraq: 2,000,000 innocent civilians dead
Vietnam: 3,500,000 innocent civilians dead

The list goes on...

Cambodia: 2,000,000 innocent civilians dead
Laos: 500,000 innocent civilians dead
Indonesia: 1,000,000 innocent civilians dead

and on...

East Timor: 200,000 innocent civilians dead
Afghanistan: 1,000,000 innocent civilians dead
Nicaragua: 13,000 innocent civilians dead

and on.

Japan: 670,000 innocent civilians dead
Germany: 180,000 innocent civilians dead
Yugoslavia: 250,000 innocent civilians dead

Now for the big one...

Combined genocide of Native Americans and imported Africans:
90,000,000 innocent civilians dead.


...wow.

Always look at two sides of an issue, Don. Show some of that ol' Italian ingenuity. :)


First, I don't remember any slavery or Native American genocide in the twentieth century. Second, I am going to have to ask for a source on these just because I have this feeling that many of these deaths were due to communism. For Japan, Germany, and Yugoslavia, I have seen similar numbers, so I will just say that Germany and Japan were because of the aggresiveness of these two very right wing countries, and in order to save many other civilians of allied countries, a quick end to war was sought for. If these tactics weren't used, these regimes would have remained fighting for a couple more years, and surely would have continued with the murders of many Koreans, Chinese, and pacific islanders for Japan. And for Germany, the bombings of all of Europe, and the extermination of minorities would have continued. So, yes civilians died and it is a horrible thing, but more civilians were saved out of this. And for the rest give me a site to go to that isn't titled "Fuck America" and I will go. Now, for the rest DyerMaker, I was just trying to point out the fact, that for every article you find trashing capitalism, there is also one for communism. Lets remember, I didn't write this. I was just trying to show the two sides there are for communism. One is a utopia, the other is a living hell. Just like capitalism. The trickle down-system idea is a utopia, the enron, arthur andersen, worldcom, imclone, side is the hell. The only difference is that there is not the chance for complete power to fall into the hands of the government, as in communism. In capitalism, the people can still control some media, newspapers, music, and ideas. In the worst case scenario of communism, its not like this. Besides, we have come so far with our system now. Instead of leaving it, why not use these communist ideas to change certain parts of the capitalistic system. Such as putting fair trade before absolutely free trade.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from mig1907 on 5:04 pm on Jan. 17, 2003
Don Amodeo may I ask where do you live?


I live in Salerno, in Italy. Its close to Naples, just further south. I haven't lived here all my life though. I lived and studied with family in America for a long time too.

(Edited by Don Amodeo at 5:24 pm on Jan. 17, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Don Amodeo on 4:23 pm on Jan. 17, 2003

Quote: from mig1907 on 5:04 pm on Jan. 17, 2003
Don Amodeo may I ask where do you live?

I live in Salerno, in Italy. Its close to Naples, just further south. I haven't lived here all my life though. I lived and studied with family in America for a long time too.

Your from Italy and talk to us about moral degridation, and musslene was a real ray of sunshine. Was he comunist. No any way the deaths you quote were mostly done by Nazis like stalin. He was an enemy to comunism. If i could i would disown him from the socialist history.



(Edited by AK47 at 4:42 pm on Jan. 17, 2003)

[Smoking Frog II]

Stalin was a bastard, but in the alliance with Hitler, Benito Mussolini was undoubtably worse.

Together, the pair dominated Spain. Unarmed Civilians were mass-murdered. Innocent Children were slaughtered. The Fascist dictator Franco was put in power. The painting "Guernica" best shows as evidence to the terrible civil war. For a witness view, I suggest you read "Homage to catalonia" by Eric Blair.

[Invader Zim]

Most of the worlds starving are also a direct result of capitalist exploitaion. If Western countries did not interfere with places like indonesia i'm sure child poverty would go right down.

[Smoking Frog II]

yes.

[redstar2000]

I hope they DO build that "memorial" to the "victims" of the communist "holocaust" in Washington, D.C.

Why? Because think how much FUN we'll have tearing it down!

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 4:15 am on Jan. 18, 2003)

[Hegemonicretribution]

I always thought "totalitarian" would have more to do with a system such as a "democracy" where not everyone could stand. In fact just to clarify an oligarchy, even worse, where not only tha, but not everyone can vote. Hmmm sounds like America, Europe etc...Children can't vote, or stand, so unless they are not people, you are not a democracy, you are totalitrian at best.

So whilst on the subject, O.K. you don't count mentally disabled, prisoners and children as citizens, so you can be a democracy. But doesn't everyone still need a say? A vote is not enough to make a difference, therefore individuals have no say, no power, they have to group to get a say.

Ideoligies, as far as I know, have never made it on the large scale, simply because when a system because impersonal, humans by nature take advantage...for example exploitation of others. Democracy in a true for would be great, as would communism. Live on a commune, and experience some feeling before quoting misconceived bullshit.

[Beccie]

Thank-you for informing me how bad Communism is I think I will convert to Capitalism now.

Lest we forgot the people that die each die in poverty because of disease that is curable in the first world and starvation. The Capitalist system would not exist without them, it thrives off their poverty.


(Edited by Commie01 at 3:33 am on Jan. 18, 2003)

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from AK47 on 5:39 pm on Jan. 17, 2003

Quote: from Don Amodeo on 4:23 pm on Jan. 17, 2003

Quote: from mig1907 on 5:04 pm on Jan. 17, 2003
Don Amodeo may I ask where do you live?

I live in Salerno, in Italy. Its close to Naples, just further south. I haven't lived here all my life though. I lived and studied with family in America for a long time too.

Your from Italy and talk to us about moral degridation, and musslene was a real ray of sunshine. Was he comunist. No any way the deaths you quote were mostly done by Nazis like stalin. He was an enemy to comunism. If i could i would disown him from the socialist history.



(Edited by AK47 at 4:42 pm on Jan. 17, 2003)



Quote: from Smoking Frog II on 5:47 pm on Jan. 17, 2003
Stalin was a bastard, but in the alliance with Hitler, Benito Mussolini was undoubtably worse.

Together, the pair dominated Spain. Unarmed Civilians were mass-murdered. Innocent Children were slaughtered. The Fascist dictator Franco was put in power. The painting "Guernica" best shows as evidence to the terrible civil war. For a witness view, I suggest you read "Homage to catalonia" by Eric Blair.


What the fuck? When did I say anything about liking Mussolini, do you know anything about history. You think Italians liked Mussolini. You think I like Mussolini. Fuck him, who killed that son of a *****. We did. We took him and hung him on the street. You're not going to get any argument out of me when you say fuck Mussolini. But you know what he was, socialist. He created fascism out of socialism. Before he became dictator, he ran a socialist newspaper. So, once again, let me say, the idea is good, but in practice it doesn't work.
And one more thing, fuck you for assuming I like Mussolini. I don't talk about how its the fault of all you english for the horrible treatment, murders, tortures, and rapes, of the Irish in the last century. And you still have english people saying Margaret Thatcher was a hero. Come to Italy and say Mussolini is great, and you'll get shot.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from AK47 on 5:39 pm on Jan. 17, 2003

Quote: from Don Amodeo on 4:23 pm on Jan. 17, 2003

Quote: from mig1907 on 5:04 pm on Jan. 17, 2003
Don Amodeo may I ask where do you live?


I live in Salerno, in Italy. Its close to Naples, just further south. I haven't lived here all my life though. I lived and studied with family in America for a long time too.

Your from Italy and talk to us about moral degridation, and musslene was a real ray of sunshine. Was he comunist. No any way the deaths you quote were mostly done by Nazis like stalin. He was an enemy to comunism. If i could i would disown him from the socialist history.



(Edited by AK47 at 4:42 pm on Jan. 17, 2003)


One more thing, learn how to speak english you ignorant fuck. You don't even know how to spell communism. Leave the debate to people who are at least literate.

[antieverything]

Ooh...them's fightin' words. I'll bet you are a tough hombre.

[synthesis]

But you know what he was, socialist. He created fascism out of socialism.

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power.”
-Benito Mussolini

Stalin represents communists in much the same way that Mussolini represents Italians.

[Mazdak]

What dumbfucks. Holy shit there used to be socialists here who actually presented arguments. What the hell. First of all. All nations mentioned were socialist.

Stalin was not a nazi and i demand that AK 47 find proof of this. Otherwise he had better hide in shame. This is getting out of hand. Mussolini was a SOCIALIST in his youth. he was even arrested for protesting WW1. What changed him, i dont know, but even when he was trying to theorize facism, he mixed some socialist elements into it. Oh yes, and what about social security? The United States surely must be evil and murderous if it accepts some socialist tenets.

[redstarshining]

Quote: from Michael De Panama on 5:34 am on Jan. 17, 2003
Same old ignorance.

communism

n 1: a form of socialism that abolishes private ownership 2: a political theory favoring collectivism in a classless society

The concept of "authority", any authority, especially one that resorts to mass murder and oppression to hold its power, is completely contradictory to anything communism stands for, as the imposition of such authority would also bring about CLASS DIVISION.

Fuck the USSR.
Fuck Cambodia.
Fuck China.
Fuck Vietnam.

None of these countries you mentioned were even industrialized enough to have a strong enough proletariat to form a true communist revolution. So they compromised and created an elite vanguard party that is supposed to represent the proletariat. This isn't communist. It happened in Italy too, under Mussolini, coined as "fascism".


I absolutely agree, there has never been a communist country on this planet, not even a socialist ( although imo Cuba comes closest to being socialist ) therefore it's nonsensical to speak of "the victims of communism".

However, I think we should - despite of all necessary self-critisism- show a little bit of appreciation for the positive sides of ideologically communist history. Not everything that happened in the USSR was bad. The 1917 revolution freed the people of russia from the dictatorship of the tsar, who was one of the worst mass murderers in history. He was also an anti-semite and racist of the worst kind. He was the one who started killing political enemies in gulags all over siberia. What happened during Stalins rule was of course 'inhumane' too, to say the least.

Please understand that I'm no dogmatic communist, but comrade Lenin contributed a lot to the revolution, and to just say "fuck the USSR" is a bit one-sided in my opionion.

[Moskitto]

And you still have english people saying Margaret Thatcher was a hero.

margaret thatcher cos my dad £60,000 in 1991, caused a friend of a friend to commit suicide and violated a 1904 geneva convention.

[mentalbunny]

Mazdak, you must surely realise the huge difference that authoritarianism makes (ie everything)

[Mazdak]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 9:45 pm on Jan. 19, 2003
Mazdak, you must surely realise the huge difference that authoritarianism makes (ie everything)

But of course. They are two different ideas. But ultimatly, pacifistic and totalitarian socialism lead to the same communistic ideal(unless the intention wasnt communism from the beginning of course).

[Bored of Education]

Stalin wasn't a Nazi! :o

He can be equated to a Russian Hitler I guess.. but that's the extent of it. And even claiming the Russian Hitler thing would need major explaining.

[Anonymous]

But of course. They are two different ideas. But ultimatly, pacifistic and totalitarian socialism lead to the same communistic ideal(unless the intention wasnt communism from the beginning of course).

as usual you are very wrong.... socialism is mainly about popular ruling... about dictaturship of the proletariat... were the proletariat, along with the rest of the people rule theyr own future.... authoritanism is about elitist control of the means of production, therefore not popular or free nor democratic.... now if it is not democratic it isnt socialism... even lenin got that one and he was somewhat authoritian..

now you cannot build a elistis dogmatic state call it socialist and expect to achieve communism... beacuse taht wount happen...

democracy, freedom, planed economy, equality, justice etc... is socialism... authoritanism achieves none of that...

[Anonymous]

people always anguish about the short years of terror communists, even some stalinists inflict on capitalists.. yet they are strangely silent over the THOUSAND YEARS of terror that the capitalists inflicted on the people....

(original quote: "People anguish over the 4 years of terror that the French people inflicted on the aristocrats; they are strangely silent over the THOUSAND YEARS of terror that the aristocrats inflicted on the French people." )

[Mazdak]

Wrong anarchist. Its a transitional period. Just like War communism.

Authoritarianism is the state controlling the means of... basically everything. If the People are the state, than i dont see the problem anarchist.

[antieverything]

The people are only the state when the state is democratic which Authoritarian states never are.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from antieverything on 1:44 am on Jan. 20, 2003
The people are only the state when the state is democratic which Authoritarian states never are.

True, authoritarian states will never be democratic, and communist states will always be authoritarian

[Mazdak]

Communist states? Communism is stateless society at its peak. What you are writing about is completely off.

And who said i was democratic? There never has been a democratic state. Authoritarianism is far more realistic.

[Anonymous]

we all know you are anti-democratic and pro fascist mazdak... we know your red painted obsession for fascism very well...

authoritanism realistic? waht do you mean, realistic like Conter strike, or anyother video game?

stating you just love authoritanism because it reduces diferences and freedom is one thing, now calling it realistic is totally stupid....

[Invader Zim]

One more thing, learn how to speak english you ignorant fuck. You don't even know how to spell communism. Leave the debate to people who are at least literate.

Fuck you, you inbred piece of shit. If you are going to come on this site and start slagging of my spelling then at least make cohisive arguments. You pieces of horse shit. Have you ever heard of Dyslexia probebly not in your state of ignorance. Find out what it is and then go away and shaft yourself you inbred dog turd.




I don't talk about how its the fault of all you english for the horrible treatment, murders, tortures, and rapes, of the Irish in the last century. And you still have english people saying Margaret Thatcher was a hero.


I dont like Thatcher very few people do. Come to the U.K and watch some of the Sit-coms and see how much we take the piss out of her.

Dont even get me started on the Irish problems. I have had enough of that from others on this site.

[Don Amodeo]

"Your from Italy and talk to us about moral degridation" and
"Fuck you, you inbred piece of shit... go away and shaft yourself you inbred dog turd."

-That a boy. Showing you're really just one of those ignorant, spoiled, dumb communists, who really doesn't have the capacity to understand economics around you. And while you're trying to come up with something smart to say in return, you can't because you have no real knowledge of anything. And after I posted my argument, you became so frusturated with your stupidity, that you showed your true rascist colors. But this just shows me that this kind of unified, equal, borderless, world that you communists talk about is not ready, and will not be ready for another few hundred years, until humans have left aside this racism. People with these racist ideas like AK-47 are all over the world. We are seperated from each other less than California from New York, and he talks like Italians are lower than him. This is some idea of equality you have there AK-47. You are just way to hypocritical. Your quote says, "Next to a battle lost, the worst thing is a battle won," like your some pacifist, but your name is "AK-47" which is widely known as the most popular gun in usage in most warring states.

[Anonymous]

if you ever ever, but ever try to insult wither us communists/socialists/leftwingers again i willgive your IP to a hacker....

andthen you will feel a bit stupid when something like "hacked by lenin" apears in yor computer.....

piece of shit.....

[Bored of Education]

Aw anarchist, that's a bad comeback. The hacker threat is so cliche. Just verbally fight it out O my little brother.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Don Amodeo on 9:08 pm on Jan. 20, 2003
"Your from Italy and talk to us about moral degridation" and
"Fuck you, you inbred piece of shit... go away and shaft yourself you inbred dog turd."

-That a boy. Showing you're really just one of those ignorant, spoiled, dumb communists, who really doesn't have the capacity to understand economics around you. And while you're trying to come up with something smart to say in return, you can't because you have no real knowledge of anything. And after I posted my argument, you became so frusturated with your stupidity, that you showed your true rascist colors. But this just shows me that this kind of unified, equal, borderless, world that you communists talk about is not ready, and will not be ready for another few hundred years, until humans have left aside this racism. People with these racist ideas like AK-47 are all over the world. We are seperated from each other less than California from New York, and he talks like Italians are lower than him. This is some idea of equality you have there AK-47. You are just way to hypocritical. Your quote says, "Next to a battle lost, the worst thing is a battle won," like your some pacifist, but your name is "AK-47" which is widely known as the most popular gun in usage in most warring states.


I call my self AK47 for a large number of Philisophical reasons but mainly because it was Developed by the Nazi's and used by the Commi's, which i believe is ironic.

In responce to calling me ignorant, insulting a dyslexic persons spelling is beyond ignorant.

When exactly did i say that some-one from Italy is lower than some-one in Britain exactly. Or like all cappies do you just bull shit to hide your own inadiquate arguments.

When it comes to knowlage of the economy i could probebly write a whole essay on the history of capitalism and capitalist belief's. I may do that later just for your benefit.

No knowlage of any thing, well you dont even know me yat you come out with that kind of crap. Perhaps you are correct, but their is one thing i don know is that i posted a fair argument about a neo capatalist dictator, for which you called me ignorant, and only responce was to insult my spelling.

My only suggestion to you is to go away and read some history and then come back and use some constructive arguments.

"Your from Italy and talk to us about moral degridation"

Thais was mearly a comment about the History of Italy as a Capitalist nation. After you slagged off communism accusing communists of a holacaust. When Italian Capatalists have done far worse.

Your only cohesive argument against communism has been to say it has commited lots of killings. But if you read half the threads on this site you would know that most of us hate those atrosities and condem the people who commited them of not even being communists.

[Don Amodeo]

(Edited by Don Amodeo at 10:40 pm on Jan. 20, 2003)

[Bored of Education]

Wow Don.. what happened to your post?

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from AK47 on 10:33 pm on Jan. 20, 2003

Quote: from Don Amodeo on 9:08 pm on Jan. 20, 2003
"Your from Italy and talk to us about moral degridation" and
"Fuck you, you inbred piece of shit... go away and shaft yourself you inbred dog turd."

-That a boy. Showing you're really just one of those ignorant, spoiled, dumb communists, who really doesn't have the capacity to understand economics around you. And while you're trying to come up with something smart to say in return, you can't because you have no real knowledge of anything. And after I posted my argument, you became so frusturated with your stupidity, that you showed your true rascist colors. But this just shows me that this kind of unified, equal, borderless, world that you communists talk about is not ready, and will not be ready for another few hundred years, until humans have left aside this racism. People with these racist ideas like AK-47 are all over the world. We are seperated from each other less than California from New York, and he talks like Italians are lower than him. This is some idea of equality you have there AK-47. You are just way to hypocritical. Your quote says, "Next to a battle lost, the worst thing is a battle won," like your some pacifist, but your name is "AK-47" which is widely known as the most popular gun in usage in most warring states.


I call my self AK47 for a large number of Philisophical reasons but mainly because it was Developed by the Nazi's and used by the Commi's, which i believe is ironic.

In responce to calling me ignorant, insulting a dyslexic persons spelling is beyond ignorant.

When exactly did i say that some-one from Italy is lower than some-one in Britain exactly. Or like all cappies do you just bull shit to hide your own inadiquate arguments.

When it comes to knowlage of the economy i could probebly write a whole essay on the history of capitalism and capitalist belief's. I may do that later just for your benefit.

No knowlage of any thing, well you dont even know me yat you come out with that kind of crap. Perhaps you are correct, but their is one thing i don know is that i posted a fair argument about a neo capatalist dictator, for which you called me ignorant, and only responce was to insult my spelling.

My only suggestion to you is to go away and read some history and then come back and use some constructive arguments.

"Your from Italy and talk to us about moral degridation"

Thais was mearly a comment about the History of Italy as a Capitalist nation. After you slagged off communism accusing communists of a holacaust. When Italian Capatalists have done far worse.

Your only cohesive argument against communism has been to say it has commited lots of killings. But if you read half the threads on this site you would know that most of us hate those atrosities and condem the people who commited them of not even being communists.


-Ok, firstly, I just want to say the evidence as we have it today, shows nothing of italian capitalists doing anywhere near as bad as Stalin. Secondly, Mussolini, as I said before derived many of his beliefs from Marxism. Also, he was not democratic. The prerequisite for any country to be successful is democracy. Mussolini took that away from the people, and using propaganda, his one-man alone strategy, he led the italian people on a road to hell. But he was no Stalin. Mussolini ordered the killings of thousands of men, women, and children, but never the tens of millions that Stalin did. And thirdly, Dyslexia is a reading/writing disorder, I am calling you ignorant because of the facts you continually make up in order to prove and argument. If an argument is the right one, and the speaker has enough knowledge of the subject, then lies should not be needed. Also, stating that I am an "inbred piece of shit" because I am italian, I consider to be a little degrading. Then, you say that you would be glad to write a whole essay on capitalism v. Communism, and I would be glad to hear it. If you would are serious about this, tell me and I will email you my email address so we can talk. You continued by saying that I am ignorant for making fun of your spelling after you posted a good argument on a capitalistic dicatator. I don't know, but saying that I can't talk about morals when I am from Italy because Mussolini also comes from Italy is not the best argument one can come up with.

(Edited by Don Amodeo at 11:00 pm on Jan. 20, 2003)


(Edited by Don Amodeo at 11:02 pm on Jan. 20, 2003)

[Bored of Education]

Nice Emerson quote in your signature Don. My favorite quote from his is as follows: "Nothing at last is sacred but the integrity of your own mind," or something like that.

;)

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from Bored of Education on 10:42 pm on Jan. 20, 2003
Wow Don.. what happened to your post?


Sorry, I forgot this is just some discussion on socialism and capitalism and I got pissed. When people diss me using racist remarks, it gets to me, and I lost my temper. I took it back because I realized I would have looked like kind of a dumbass trying to intimidate someone on the internet. But to the anarchist, I still just have to say, you're a fucking ***** if you're going to hack me just because I'm not communist.

[Bored of Education]

you're a fucking ***** if you're going to hack me just because I'm not communist.
Haha.. I have nothing against you (the anarchist) but that is pretty lame.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from Bored of Education on 10:55 pm on Jan. 20, 2003
Nice Emerson quote in your signature Don. My favorite quote from his is as follows: "Nothing at last is sacred but the integrity of your own mind," or something like that.
;)


Yes, that's a good quote, but I can't stop thinking you're trying to tell me something.

[Anonymous]

your right, you should be SHOOT for not being communist....

i wasmt going to hack you just because you weresnt communist, i will do it if you continue to insult communism and socialism..

call me authoritian but we are the absolut power here.....




this is just part of my recent started flammming campaing against capitalists, because, until i have acess to a loaded gun, i will just have to flame you.... maby lather i can kill you, but for now il jsut flame....


like my grandfather used to say: "teh onlygood capitalist is the dead capitalist..."

[Bored of Education]

Quote: from Don Amodeo on 5:10 pm on Jan. 20, 2003

Quote: from Bored of Education on 10:55 pm on Jan. 20, 2003
Nice Emerson quote in your signature Don. My favorite quote from his is as follows: "Nothing at last is sacred but the integrity of your own mind," or something like that.
;)


Yes, that's a good quote, but I can't stop thinking you're trying to tell me something.


Not all "lefties" want to send you subliminal messages O my brother. I just think that's a good quote to live by.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from the anarchist on 11:12 pm on Jan. 20, 2003
your right, you should be SHOOT for not being communist....

i wasmt going to hack you just because you weresnt communist, i will do it if you continue to insult communism and socialism..

call me authoritian but we are the absolut power here.....




this is just part of my recent started flammming campaing against capitalists, because, until i have acess to a loaded gun, i will just have to flame you.... maby lather i can kill you, but for now il jsut flame....


like my grandfather used to say: "teh onlygood capitalist is the dead capitalist..."



I didn't really understand everything (english is my second language, hope you can understand) but I get the sense that you're kind of angry. If I'm right, calm down, we're just talking about capitalism and socialsm here, if you don't like capitalists maybe this isn't the best forum for you, after all, this is the only forum with capitalists. And as for insulting communism, I said its a good idea, but it can never work, and I ask you to look at history for a few examples. Lastly, here's your start for your world rid of capitalists; down some drain-o. Or you can learn to live, and talk with us, and god forbid, learn something, in this world.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from Bored of Education on 11:14 pm on Jan. 20, 2003

Quote: from Don Amodeo on 5:10 pm on Jan. 20, 2003

Quote: from Bored of Education on 10:55 pm on Jan. 20, 2003
Nice Emerson quote in your signature Don. My favorite quote from his is as follows: "Nothing at last is sacred but the integrity of your own mind," or something like that.
;)


Yes, that's a good quote, but I can't stop thinking you're trying to tell me something.


Not all "lefties" want to send you subliminal messages O my brother. I just think that's a good quote to live by.


Don't worry, I was just kidding. I tried to find the little smiling face, but I couldn't. But I have to say, that is a pretty good quote. "Niente al fine è sacro, ma la integrità del tuo animo."

[James]

And as for insulting communism, I said its a good idea, but it can never work, and I ask you to look at history for a few examples.

ok, just small point. If we look at history we shall see that it has only ever really been tried in poor countries, with great problems. And lets look at outside issues, how many countries was the USSR fighting again? i forget... cuba, blockade by only world super powe (hyper power).

A controlled economy can easily work - this is proven by history.

Democracy - not yet been perfect in the lessons of history. However, things and times change. Because things have happened in the past, doesn't mean that its always going to be that way.

Does it?

[Anonymous]

"this is the only forum with capitalists"
exactly why i like coming here and insult you cappies....

"Lastly, here's your start for your world rid of capitalists; down some drain-o. Or you can learn to live, and talk with us, and god forbid, learn something, in this world."

no i was thinking more like, a world wide socialist revolution... something like, socialist.....
i learn, everyday i learn, but you think i learn from right wingers? you think i want to actaully laern anything from capitalists? noi learn from the left my friend...i learn from marx, from the peoiple, not from some guys that like to state taht communist doesnt work just because CCCP sucked and china is fascist....

lets make a deal, YOU learn with us and educate yourself, try to know what communism really is about.... then come say you dont like it, and give REAL arguments... not rethoricalpropagandistic not to mention naive coments like communism sucks cause north koreans kill children and are commies....

[Bored of Education]

"Niente al fine è sacro, ma la integrità del tuo animo."
What's that mean? I'm an ignorant 15 year-old who just knows English. :)

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from James on 11:31 pm on Jan. 20, 2003
And as for insulting communism, I said its a good idea, but it can never work, and I ask you to look at history for a few examples.

ok, just small point. If we look at history we shall see that it has only ever really been tried in poor countries, with great problems. And lets look at outside issues, how many countries was the USSR fighting again? i forget... cuba, blockade by only world super powe (hyper power).

A controlled economy can easily work - this is proven by history.

Democracy - not yet been perfect in the lessons of history. However, things and times change. Because things have happened in the past, doesn't mean that its always going to be that way.

Does it?

Socialism will be the way of the future. But this is after we have sorted out all problems in the third world countries. Because communism needs not only a country economically powerful, but also morally. I am a believer that the trickle down system of capitalism is a relatively quick (100 years) way of turning a country into an economically stable country in today's world. In Naomi Klein's (a strong advocate for decentralization in politics, nationalization, and the leader for many no global movements) "Fences and Windows" she herself admitted that after 60 years, South America will double the per capita income of the families, and take its populations out of extreme poverty. The United States' economy is the biggest in the world, and why? Its simply because of privatization, and loose laws.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from Bored of Education on 11:50 pm on Jan. 20, 2003

"Niente al fine è sacro, ma la integrità del tuo animo."
What's that mean? I'm an ignorant 15 year-old who just knows English. :)


HaHa, that just means "nothing at last is sacred, but the integrity, of your mind.":)

[Bored of Education]

Haha, that's cool. http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from the anarchist on 11:38 pm on Jan. 20, 2003
"this is the only forum with capitalists"
exactly why i like coming here and insult you cappies....

"Lastly, here's your start for your world rid of capitalists; down some drain-o. Or you can learn to live, and talk with us, and god forbid, learn something, in this world."

no i was thinking more like, a world wide socialist revolution... something like, socialist.....
i learn, everyday i learn, but you think i learn from right wingers? you think i want to actaully laern anything from capitalists? noi learn from the left my friend...i learn from marx, from the peoiple, not from some guys that like to state taht communist doesnt work just because CCCP sucked and china is fascist....

lets make a deal, YOU learn with us and educate yourself, try to know what communism really is about.... then come say you dont like it, and give REAL arguments... not rethoricalpropagandistic not to mention naive coments like communism sucks cause north koreans kill children and are commies....




And why can't I say N. koreans kill children and are commies. You guys say all the time capitalism is killing millions, so naturally, I am going to say communism killed many more. You say a perfect communist state hasn't yet been created. I am going to say a perfect capitalist state hasn't yet been created. You say you learn from the people, tell me how old you are, tell me how many third world countries you've been to, and tell me how rich you're dad is, and I will tell you capitalism gave you these oppurtunities. It gives two very harsh extremes. It gives the sky as the limit, and the pavement as the bottom. But more people immigrate to the US than any other nation, you want to tell me why. I'll tell you why, its because it has the best economical system out there. Far from perfect, but it is a great system. The US is there for those who want it. And every day immigrants risk their lives to try to smuggle themselves into the states. How many americans will you find trying to smuggle themselves into Cuba.

[Don Amodeo]

Good night everybody

[Bored of Education]

See ya Don. Have fun in Italy. http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/images/smilies/pleased.gif

[Anonymous]

my grand father was a emigrant, he worked in a factory in france with my grand mother for 15 years just so he could give good conditions to his children, he was communist till the day he died, unlike some other elements of my family, my fahter was too communist, and was involved in the socialist revolution of 74, yet he sold out and is now a cappie, left winger cappie, but stil cappie, but only because he gave up the fight, it is now my time to fight for socialism... he contributed enough, its my turn to fight capitalism now...

and spare me of your nationalism please iv had enought with anti-communism capitalism for one day...

(Edited by the anarchist at 11:42 pm on Jan. 20, 2003)

[Bored of Education]

Quote: from the anarchist on 6:40 pm on Jan. 20, 2003
my grand father was a emigrant, he worked in a factory in france with my grand mother for 15 years just so he could give good conditions to his children, he was communist till the day he died, unlike some other elements of my family, my fahter was too communist, and was involved in the socialist revolution of 74, yet he sold out and is now a cappie, left winger cappie, but stil cappie, but only because he gave up the fight, it is now my time to fight for socialism... he contributed enough, its my turn to fight capitalism now...

and spare me of your nationalism please iv had enought with anti-communism capitalism for one day...

(Edited by the anarchist at 11:42 pm on Jan. 20, 2003)

It's not a war of commies vs. cappies O my brother.

"We are all human, it's time to prove it." -Anti-Flag

(Edited by Bored of Education at 6:56 pm on Jan. 20, 2003)

[Anonymous]

it is a war between the people (aka communism) and capitalism....or vice-versa....

whatever you prefer...

[Bored of Education]

There's no war going on friend.

[Geddan]

Don, we will stop assuming that you love Mussolini when you stop assuming we like North Korea, mass murder, extreme authoritarianism, Zimbabwe, China etc... Most of us are disgusted by it, most of us are democratic and most of us won't execute half of the planet's population in order to hold up an authoriarian state.

However, you are very ignorant in assuming that Communist states have killed people. Communist states can, as someone said, never exist, communist societies can. Authoritarian leftist-states have existed indeed, and they have killed of lots people, I know, but compare that to the capitalistic genocides and the locking out of the 3rd world of today, and the "communist" genocides (which most of us hate) will pale in comparison.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from the anarchist on 12:40 am on Jan. 21, 2003
my grand father was a emigrant, he worked in a factory in france with my grand mother for 15 years just so he could give good conditions to his children, he was communist till the day he died, unlike some other elements of my family, my fahter was too communist, and was involved in the socialist revolution of 74, yet he sold out and is now a cappie, left winger cappie, but stil cappie, but only because he gave up the fight, it is now my time to fight for socialism... he contributed enough, its my turn to fight capitalism now...

and spare me of your nationalism please iv had enought with anti-communism capitalism for one day...

(Edited by the anarchist at 11:42 pm on Jan. 20, 2003)


Maybe your dad just realized that the only way for a country to function correctly is capitalism. Nobody ever really knows anything until they have to provide for their wife and kids.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from Geddan on 12:59 pm on Jan. 21, 2003
Don, we will stop assuming that you love Mussolini when you stop assuming we like North Korea, mass murder, extreme authoritarianism, Zimbabwe, China etc... Most of us are disgusted by it, most of us are democratic and most of us won't execute half of the planet's population in order to hold up an authoriarian state.

However, you are very ignorant in assuming that Communist states have killed people. Communist states can, as someone said, never exist, communist societies can. Authoritarian leftist-states have existed indeed, and they have killed of lots people, I know, but compare that to the capitalistic genocides and the locking out of the 3rd world of today, and the "communist" genocides (which most of us hate) will pale in comparison.




And I will stop assuming that communism is more than the mass murders, the systematic killings, the lack of rights, when you stop assuming that capitalism is not made up of locking out third world countries, depriving the poor of rights, and giving the nation to money hungry tycoons.

And secondly, site the source where you find more people dead due to capitalism than to the communism-authoritarianism combination in the 20th century. And make sure its not titled "1917" or simply "FUCK America"

(Edited by Don Amodeo at 3:30 pm on Jan. 21, 2003)

[James]

Don, yes i too like the idea of one nation conservatism - but this simply doesn't work. Many capitalists are the first to "point out" in arguments, that "greed is human nature". If this is truely so, then one nation C. can't work.
This can be proven by looking at orgs such as the WTO - you may have positive views, but i only really have negative views on. They DON'T help. The World bank, world debt etc etc. All this is not one nation C. (ONC) i grant you, but to get the general results and basic "end product" of ONC0, we need controls and rules.
We need the economy to be controlled. When corporations become so "succesful", and are bigger than humans, we are truely in the shit.
Another capitalist argument is that the media acts as "checks and balances" on corporations, however - again, this is so false.
Its not possible to find out all this stuff. And even if a bad thing is found out, people can easily be bought off.

Remember, humans are "naturally greedy".

Sure government officials can also be bought off, but this is a major part of communism (so pay attention ;)) : accountability.
Everyone with power is accountable to the people. We wouldn't get dodgy politicians, because dodgy ones would be recalled, and got rid off (no, not in a labour camp!).
So this is why we need government controlls.

Just a seperate point, my college has just had a big extension put on it. We got a government grant, and the rest was contracted out - including the building. And i can tell you know, so many things have gone wrong. Drains have been put in backward or something, and there is simply no drainage in another part.
Now, it could be argued that in the one nation way, this company is shit, so wouldn't be hired again. So its in the interests of the company to do well and do a good job etc etc

However...

Another privatisation example is my local bus services. I can tell you now; its SHIT. Its a private company, and its not accountable at all. It never comes at the times on the table, and it only comes once an hour (if it does come), the bus is always in appaling condition, i'm over charged, often crowded in like a pig etc etc.
What can be done?

Well even my father (yes, he is rather one nation i think, he's a sales director on a large company...) admits that nothing can be done. There is no compitition because this company swollowed up all the others. There is nothing left as another choice.
Its been forced upon us, and there is no other option open to me and my people.

Except get a car etc etc but the again, arn't we meant to be cutting down on that kind of use in the UK?

(sorry for the long post, i think i got the key points down though)

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from James on 5:22 pm on Jan. 21, 2003
Don, yes i too like the idea of one nation conservatism - but this simply doesn't work. Many capitalists are the first to "point out" in arguments, that "greed is human nature". If this is truely so, then one nation C. can't work.
This can be proven by looking at orgs such as the WTO - you may have positive views, but i only really have negative views on. They DON'T help. The World bank, world debt etc etc. All this is not one nation C. (ONC) i grant you, but to get the general results and basic "end product" of ONC0, we need controls and rules.
We need the economy to be controlled. When corporations become so "succesful", and are bigger than humans, we are truely in the shit.
Another capitalist argument is that the media acts as "checks and balances" on corporations, however - again, this is so false.
Its not possible to find out all this stuff. And even if a bad thing is found out, people can easily be bought off.

Remember, humans are "naturally greedy".

Sure government officials can also be bought off, but this is a major part of communism (so pay attention ;)) : accountability.
Everyone with power is accountable to the people. We wouldn't get dodgy politicians, because dodgy ones would be recalled, and got rid off (no, not in a labour camp!).
So this is why we need government controlls.

Just a seperate point, my college has just had a big extension put on it. We got a government grant, and the rest was contracted out - including the building. And i can tell you know, so many things have gone wrong. Drains have been put in backward or something, and there is simply no drainage in another part.
Now, it could be argued that in the one nation way, this company is shit, so wouldn't be hired again. So its in the interests of the company to do well and do a good job etc etc

However...

Another privatisation example is my local bus services. I can tell you now; its SHIT. Its a private company, and its not accountable at all. It never comes at the times on the table, and it only comes once an hour (if it does come), the bus is always in appaling condition, i'm over charged, often crowded in like a pig etc etc.
What can be done?

Well even my father (yes, he is rather one nation i think, he's a sales director on a large company...) admits that nothing can be done. There is no compitition because this company swollowed up all the others. There is nothing left as another choice.
Its been forced upon us, and there is no other option open to me and my people.

Except get a car etc etc but the again, arn't we meant to be cutting down on that kind of use in the UK?

(sorry for the long post, i think i got the key points down though)

Don't worry about the long post. I can always enjoy it as long as somebody's not lying or exaggerating.

First thing, the WTO. Actually, I tend to agree. The IMF and WTO loans have been wrong so far. The problem with their idealogy is that they are to naive. The reality is that there is corruption in south america and if there is a completely free society, free of rules for big business, we would be back to the medievil times again. If it can happen in the US with companies like Enron and Worldcom, than it could certainly happen with Argentina. I won't argue that there should be the same amount of freedom like the US, but I will say it should not be completely nationalized. We both know that competition in any shape or form creates better products, and the best competition is when men are free to do what they can with their minds, with as little rules as possible, and I emphasize possible.

Secondly, when corporations become bigger than government. I agree, we shouldn't allow the type of political contributions that happen now. We should have a distinct line between government and corporations. Free trade with absolutely no borders gives corporations the opportunity to take over politics, while communism pretty obviously gives the state the power over the business. And none of these are right. There must be that clear line in the sand. In communism, the free market is synonomous with the black market, and there will be communist officials to bribe, who won't get caught for years if at all, making todays stock market much like the drug trade. And if you ask me, I am a believer in the legalization of all drugs just because its not mostly the drugs that kill, but the dealers. Thats another discussion though.

Thirdly, I really don't know whatever is going on with your bus company, so I don't feel like I can actually attempt to say something smart here.

And lastly, this has absolutely nothing to due with the post, but I got a message from Mexcan titled "..." the day after the anarchist told me he would hack my computer because I am capitalist. Tell me if Mexcan is a good guy if you can. And if I missed any points in your argument, write it again. I sometimes forget stuff.

[Anonymous]

the socialist state (not communist state like you like to refer) is a peoples state, not a elitist/burguase goverment controled by the elites.... it sometimes happens that pseudo socialists make elitist goverments (aka stalinism) but that is NOT socialism or communism....

[James]

Don't worry about the long post. I can always enjoy it as long as somebody's not lying or exaggerating.
Ahhhh, dito

First thing, the WTO. Actually, I tend to agree. The IMF and WTO loans have been wrong so far. The problem with their idealogy is that they are to naive. The reality is that there is corruption in south america and if there is a completely free society, free of rules for big business, we would be back to the medievil times again. If it can happen in the US with companies like Enron and Worldcom, than it could certainly happen with Argentina. I won't argue that there should be the same amount of freedom like the US, but I will say it should not be completely nationalized.

So, it appears – correct me if I’m wrong, that we are in agreement that such groups are a greater threat to humanity than we are led to believe. Instead of being good for trade, they cripple countries, keeping them as LEDCs – keeping people in poverty, illness and danger. This I feel, we can link to the current “immigration problems” in the UK. If there weren’t so many push factors in these countries, the net amount of immigration and general movement from country to country would decrease – causing fewer problems. However, this is just a random set of thoughts, which could well be totally wrong - my apologies if this’ the case.

We both know that competition in any shape or form creates better products, and the best competition is when men are free to do what they can with their minds, with as little rules as possible, and I emphasize possible.

But the “free market” imprisons more than it frees. It only truly benefits the large corporations. Not the vast population. This leads to big monopolies, then of course less accountability. Such as the bus situation in my area! Please don’t think I just don’t want to control everything because I’m a control freak. I want control because I feel its more democratic (preventing corporations from becoming too great, bigger than humans etc) than simply giving free reign to the big corporations, which in affect creat problems for the smaller corporations. This is a case of “no free trade, but fair trade”.
Further more, I feel that it should be stressed that I (and I feel other similar “maxists” etc) believe that conscience arises from social surroundings and status. We believe it to be true that this way is the only way “it” can work, because this is the thing we’ve been taught. Indoctrination dare I say it! Seriously though, change can happen in people’s outlooks. I believe that it is possible that one day mankind will work more as a team. To get simply the best result for everyone, because its in their own interests. (I’ve slightly lost my train of though now, sorry!)

Secondly, when corporations become bigger than government. I agree, we shouldn't allow the type of political contributions that happen now. We should have a distinct line between government and corporations.

Kind of agreed. I’d simply argue that we have an end to corporations as they are today.
Free trade with absolutely no borders

Is exactly what free trade is my friend. Quite simply.

gives corporations the opportunity to take over politics, while communism pretty obviously gives the state the power over the business. And none of these are right. There must be that clear line in the sand. In communism, the free market is synonomous with the black market, and there will be communist officials to bribe, who won't get caught for years if at all, making todays stock market much like the drug trade.

I agree, no system is perfect. HOWEVER. I feel this system would be an improvement. And from this “beech head” as such, we can evolve. Remember, evolution NEVER stops, nothing ever becomes static. This of course could be argued to say something like… like communism will just get worse and worse, “as history shows” – HOWEVER, I’m not stupid. I don’t think there could be communism tomorrow when I wake up. I don’t feel the world is ready, communism is the next stage, after capitalism. Soon people will get fed up with eneron’s and world debt. They will soon get fed up with individuals trying to “make it” and will come to realize that we can achieve more collectively. I’m not sure how we could prevent government problems though… I suppose it would have to be a sound system, making sure that people in power are under review a reasonable amount of the time (for we shoulnd’t have them constantly under the eye, otherwise they won’t get anything done, maybe?), and answerable to the PEOPLE. This is the key point I feel.

And if you ask me, I am a believer in the legalization of all drugs just because its not mostly the drugs that kill, but the dealers. Thats another discussion though.

Ah! A new topic! Well I personally don’t believe in doing all these weird and wonderful drugs. But then again, whats the difference from going to a pub with some mates, and getting all drugged up from beer, and from going to a cliub with some mates and getting drugged up on one pill? I don’t think people should really do drugs like a lot of people do… but hey! Each to his own I suppose.
I agree though. Crime should decrease… and think of the taxes!

Thirdly, I really don't know whatever is going on with your bus company, so I don't feel like I can actually attempt to say something smart here.

Well, basic background. Once it was under the rout was under the control of “Stagecoach”, then it changed hands all of a sudden to a company called “Lanchershire United” or something like that (sounds like a football team – they actually performed though like a 5th devision… if that’s possible…), and then finally it was bought up by “Blue Bus”. Blue Bus has bearly all the routes now around here, there is basically no competition. And I presume it bought up LancsUnited, which had just before bought up Stagecoach’s routes. So its VERY powerful, with a lot of buying power.

And lastly, this has absolutely nothing to due with the post, but I got a message from Mexcan titled "..." the day after the anarchist told me he would hack my computer because I am capitalist. Tell me if Mexcan is a good guy if you can. And if I missed any points in your argument, write it again. I sometimes forget stuff.

Mexcan? I’m afraid I can’t help you here… I haven’t really been posting much for the past few months. Everything’s changed so much! With so many new members!!! However, PEOPLE; please don’t fuck around. Common decency

[Anonymous]

"Remember, humans are "naturally greedy". "

How can you say that james?
no no human is born greedy, he is a product of his environment...



Maybe your dad just realized that the only way for a country to function correctly is capitalism. Nobody ever really knows anything until they have to provide for their wife and kids.
or maby you never realise when you should shut up asshole....
no my father never gave a fuck about me, if he did so he would quite the drinking and lived with me...
so before spiting your capitalist bulshit think twice moron....

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from the anarchist on 1:28 am on Jan. 23, 2003
"Remember, humans are "naturally greedy". "

How can you say that james?
no no human is born greedy, he is a product of his environment...



Maybe your dad just realized that the only way for a country to function correctly is capitalism. Nobody ever really knows anything until they have to provide for their wife and kids.
or maby you never realise when you should shut up asshole....
no my father never gave a fuck about me, if he did so he would quite the drinking and lived with me...
so before spiting your capitalist bulshit think twice moron....

I'm not going to pretend knowing whats going on in your personal life. But if what you say is true, that "no human is born greedy, he is a product of his environment" than you can't say its your dad's fault. Maybe its his dads fault, the communist. The truth is that this has nothing to do with communism or capitalism, so don't try to insult me, telling me to stop when the capitalist bullshit and calling me an asshole, when you clearly knew I had know clue what was happening with you. I'll tell you this, I am sorry about your dad, but don't you fucking call me a moron or an asshole just because I didn't know your dad left you, understand? This isn't supposed to be a personal forum, its supposed to be a capitalism v. socialism forum.

[James]

How can you say that james?
no no human is born greedy, he is a product of his environment...



erm... i was sort of being sarcastic. Well no... i was just applying capitalist logic to the argument. I'll explain more if you ask later on, on msn.

And i agree with don.

[Don Amodeo]

I said:
"We both know that competition in any shape or form creates better products, and the best competition is when men are free to do what they can with their minds, with as little rules as possible, and I emphasize possible."
you said:
"But the “free market” imprisons more than it frees. It only truly benefits the large corporations. Not the vast population."
I say:
I would argue that while todays "free market" imprisons a great deal (Enron and the employees who found themselves without a job and without a retirement plan) but I will also say that it frees much better than the communist system would. In a communist system, the businesses would not have many freedoms to do business such as the freedom to fire a worker for whatever reason. Now, with the current recession we are seeing many big layoffs and in a democratically/government run business, the people would most likely choose not to layoff workers. This seems good, but if the entire economy is in recession, then the government loses a lot of money saving jobs because nobody is buying anything and as the stock markets fall, so does the governments money for social security, welfare, and the rest of the public spending. And because this is a communist country, the government owned businesses can't spend more money to compete with the outside technology and the products become obsolete. Then, since nobody is buying the products the government will lose all its money for building cities, researching diseases, funding the community, and thus the people, who took money from the government, weren't thinking that they were really taking money from themselves, because the government was the people, nothing more, nothing less. And when the government goes bankrupt, you have an Enron like situation only with millions of people, and in the United States case, almost $300 million.

you said:
"Free trade with absolutely no borders
Is exactly what free trade is my friend. Quite simply."
I say:
I would disagree, like right now we feel that we are pretty free to come out, talk on the internet about overthrowing the government, or do whatever we want. But when somebody actually goes out and physically hurts somebody, the free world doesn't allow that. I consider free trade like that. Its free, but not to go over and fuck all of the little people like enron did. I recognize the relationship Bush had with the ceo of Enron, but I will also say that in my perfect capitalist world, there wouldn't be this relationship between corporations and government. And I will say thats possible.

I said:
"And if you ask me, I am a believer in the legalization of all drugs just because its not mostly the drugs that kill, but the dealers. Thats another discussion though."
you said:
"Ah! A new topic! Well I personally don’t believe in doing all these weird and wonderful drugs. But then again, whats the difference from going to a pub with some mates, and getting all drugged up from beer, and from going to a cliub with some mates and getting drugged up on one pill? I don’t think people should really do drugs like a lot of people do… but hey! Each to his own I suppose.
I agree though. Crime should decrease… and think of the taxes!"

I say:
I'm not going to lie, I fucked around with all sorts of drugs. But I quit that after about a year of messing around because I realized they do really fuck you up. But I don't want to legalize it only because I would go out and get high every night, but because its just like any other thing that is legal right now. The new main things being guns and alcohol. Most right wingers in the US argue against drugs because people can hurt themselves or others on them. People can do that with a gun, which is considered by them an unrevocable right, and the same is with alcohol. Look at the prohibition of the thirtys. It was the birth of the modern day mafia in America, so crime increased. Alcoholism increased greatly because only hard alcohol was produced, not beer or wine. And the death rate increased greatly not only because of crime, but because the alcohol was so crudely made it would kill a large amount of people. It is exactly the same thing with drugs, only that also the american government is spending billions of dollars a year on the war on drugs. This is money that could go to much better things. And lastly, drugs is a predicted $300 billion a year business. That makes drugs right up there with some of the most profitable legal businesses in the world, but the money isn't going to good causes, its going to colombian druglords.

PS- Mexcan is a good guy, I was worried for no reason.


(Edited by Don Amodeo at 10:53 am on Jan. 24, 2003)

[Smoking Frog II]

competition initially creates better products, but corporations will steal each other's designs, and eventually all of a new product will be virtually identical. Back to square 1...

[Invader Zim]

Don Amideo you keep calling me a racist. I have never insulted Italy or italinans in General. I have insulted you and a thankfuly dead facist dictator. Incase your unsure calling you inbred is not a racist remark.

I think you may have misunderstood the thing about mussolini. I did not mean to insult Italians all it was was simply doing exactly what your doing. Taking one individual murder and calling an entire nation murderers. Exactly what you have been doing with Communism.

I do not like stalin or his actions i would not even call him a communist, more a facist.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from AK47 on 10:56 pm on Jan. 23, 2003
Don Amideo you keep calling me a racist. I have never insulted Italy or italinans in General. I have insulted you and a thankfuly dead facist dictator. Incase your unsure calling you inbred is not a racist remark.

I think you may have misunderstood the thing about mussolini. I did not mean to insult Italians all it was was simply doing exactly what your doing. Taking one individual murder and calling an entire nation murderers. Exactly what you have been doing with Communism.

I do not like stalin or his actions i would not even call him a communist, more a facist.

Don't worry about it, I misunderstood. I thought you were calling me inbred because I am italian.

[Invader Zim]

Ok

[James]

I would argue that while todays "free market" imprisons a great deal (Enron and the employees who found themselves without a job and without a retirement plan) but I will also say that it frees much better than the communist system would.

No, i disagree. MILLIONS are enslaved by neo-liberalism. Take for example world debt, i havn't met a single person who agree's with these banks etc.
The 3rd World pays the developed North nine times more in debt repayments than they receive in aid
World Debt is keeping people in poverty, this poverty is resulting in deaths. Maybe people will be less "free" to do such harm to others in a communist society. But i don't see why anyone would want to exploit people like this. This is "profit over people".

In a communist system, the businesses would not have many freedoms to do business such as the freedom to fire a worker for whatever reason.

No, infact they would have more freedom. However, there would be no freedom for one person to have so much power, and to exploit it as they do today. Workers control, based on merit and skill.

Now, with the current recession we are seeing many big layoffs and in a democratically/government run business, the people would most likely choose not to layoff workers.

Now this is true. But its also false, because there wouldn't be lay offs. Why are there lay offs?

This seems good, but if the entire economy is in recession, then the government loses a lot of money saving jobs because nobody is buying anything and as the stock markets fall, so does the governments money for social security, welfare, and the rest of the public spending. And because this is a communist country, the government owned businesses can't spend more money to compete with the outside technology and the products become obsolete. Then, since nobody is buying the products the government will lose all its money for building cities, researching diseases, funding the community, and thus the people, who took money from the government, weren't thinking that they were really taking money from themselves, because the government was the people, nothing more, nothing less. And when the government goes bankrupt, you have an Enron like situation only with millions of people, and in the United States case, almost $300 million.

Continuing on with my point... This is a capitalist situation. I'm in favour of full communism. I'm not one of those who think we can make the system "nicer".

For example, in a communist society, moeny will be abolished. In "our" society, companies have to survive on there own. They do this by "stream lining". You know, like increasing profit, decreasing input. This includes work force. The work force is seen as a simple thing as paper, photocopying machines, ink etc etc.

Communist society would be completely different. Different way of "doing society", different way of thought, way of life etc etc etc.

Look on any of the major sites to see more on this. For example www.marxist.com or something

I would disagree, like right now we feel that we are pretty free to come out, talk on the internet about overthrowing the government, or do whatever we want.

Thats freedom. Not "free trade". Free trade is NOT free, or fare. Please don't think this way, it benifits the top monopolies. And them alone - they consume and destroy everything.

But when somebody actually goes out and physically hurts somebody, the free world doesn't allow that.

Again, this is DEMOCRACY.
Not "free trade"

I consider free trade like that. Its free, but not to go over and fuck all of the little people like enron did.

But it happens. Its the basics.
To get stats etc, do a search for "anti free trade" or something (EPZ is another good one). I do have sources somewhere, but i can't find them at the mo. Its very easy to find stuff on the net though.


I recognize the relationship Bush had with the ceo of Enron, but I will also say that in my perfect capitalist world, there wouldn't be this relationship between corporations and government. And I will say thats possible.

If we don't have rules to restrict corporations though, they can become bigger than governments. But if we restirct corporations to preserve democracy, then we are being "anti free trade".

Its simple. FREE TRADE IS NOT DEMOCRATIC OR FREE.

I'm not going to lie, I fucked around with all sorts of drugs. But I quit that after about a year of messing around because I realized they do really fuck you up. But I don't want to legalize it only because I would go out and get high every night, but because its just like any other thing that is legal right now. The new main things being guns and alcohol. Most right wingers in the US argue against drugs because people can hurt themselves or others on them. People can do that with a gun, which is considered by them an unrevocable right, and the same is with alcohol. Look at the prohibition of the thirtys. It was the birth of the modern day mafia in America, so crime increased. Alcoholism increased greatly because only hard alcohol was produced, not beer or wine. And the death rate increased greatly not only because of crime, but because the alcohol was so crudely made it would kill a large amount of people. It is exactly the same thing with drugs, only that also the american government is spending billions of dollars a year on the war on drugs. This is money that could go to much better things. And lastly, drugs is a predicted $300 billion a year business. That makes drugs right up there with some of the most profitable legal businesses in the world, but the money isn't going to good causes, its going to colombian druglords.

Well, i totally agree.

[Guest]

'Communist Holocaust' ?

Funny but Salvador, Chile, Argentina and Russia since 1993 (when Yelstin SS squards massacred hundreds of democraticly elected members of parliament) are the only places where I ever see mothers carrying pictures of their sons and husbands who 'Dissapered'. And they are all Capatalist.