Adam Smith and Robert Peel the creaters of Capitalism!! - Th

[Invader Zim]

Adams smiths idea was that all bars on trade and the economy should by lifted, and the system should be designed to support the individual. The logic behind this is that the individual ie Bill Gates would create jobs and booste the economy. The system would be fair to workers because the workers would not have to work in harsh conditions they could just go to another employer. This would mean the the state of workers would be always high.

However what would happen if the employer was the only employer for 100 hundred miles. Hmm let me guess exploitaion of the the workers!!

This is why the very basis of capatalism is flawed.

[truthaddict11]

totally agree. smiths system is total anarcho-capitalist. if he believes that the economy would actually be better by doing whatever the fuck they want guess what?
E-X-P-L-O-I-T-A-T-I-O-N.

[Geddan]

If everyone acts egocentric, things will get worse even for themselves.

[Capitalist Imperial]

It works in america. There are very few if any region where there is only 1 employer for 100's of miles.

American workers have the best living standard of anyone on earth.

[Iepilei]

that's because large majority of your workers are pushed to the wayside.

american quality... made in sri lanka.

[Geddan]

Wow, Capitalist Imperial, where have you read that? Didn't know, although the only thing I knew was that multinational corporations avoid the welfare states because of their "workers' rights" and instead relocate to the 3rd world where they don't have such stupid worker security laws to follow. Heck, now we can live happily of the work by Indonesians.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Geddan on 8:14 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
Wow, Capitalist Imperial, where have you read that? Didn't know, although the only thing I knew was that multinational corporations avoid the welfare states because of their "workers' rights" and instead relocate to the 3rd world where they don't have such stupid worker security laws to follow. Heck, now we can live happily of the work by Indonesians.


those american factories improve local and regional economies relative to their viablility before US companies established themselves there

how can you legitimately criticize a net improvement?

locals flock to those factories for work, as the compensation is much better than what indigeonous work offers

[peoplenotprofits]

Quote: from truthaddict11 on 7:54 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
totally agree. smiths system is total anarcho-capitalist. if he believes that the economy would actually be better by doing whatever the fuck they want guess what?
E-X-P-L-O-I-T-A-T-I-O-N.


Yeah man why would be people want to use their own free will to make desisions?
Good thing I have you authoritarians to tell me what to do.

[Ghost]

Tell me something, if their ideas are so "flawed", then why are they still in practice today.

And if they are "flawed" and are still going, it makes you wonder how flawed communism must have been to barely be around any more.

[Guest]

"American workers have the best living standard of anyone on earth. "

Actually it's something like 6th...and the sad thing is that Canada, who gets all their money from America has been #1 for almost a decade.

[Moskitto]

3rd.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Guest on 10:21 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
"American workers have the best living standard of anyone on earth. "

Actually it's something like 6th...and the sad thing is that Canada, who gets all their money from America has been #1 for almost a decade.


I hope you are not going off of that UN study, because it is not a true measure of living standards

US in #1 in

average household income

voting rights

homeownership

business ownership

we also have the least taxes taken from our checks, so we net even more income than most studies credit us for

[Tkinter1]

If the conditions are harsh, they can strike until employment is fair. It's a built in system of protection for the workers.

Both systems are flawed, this is known already. Its easier to fix(or refine) a system than it is to replace it.

[antieverything]

I believe that Germany passed our standard of living in '93 according to one study I saw.

Is AK47 qualified to say these sorts of things?

[truthaddict11]

Quote: from peoplenotprofits on 4:24 pm on Jan. 14, 2003

Quote: from truthaddict11 on 7:54 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
totally agree. smiths system is total anarcho-capitalist. if he believes that the economy would actually be better by doing whatever the fuck they want guess what?
E-X-P-L-O-I-T-A-T-I-O-N.


Yeah man why would be people want to use their own free will to make desisions?
Good thing I have you authoritarians to tell me what to do.


i am not an authoritorian i am making the point if buisnesses have the ability to do whatever they please they would exploit their workers. did you even read the first two posts?

[peoplenotprofits]

Quote: from truthaddict11 on 3:33 am on Jan. 15, 2003

Quote: from peoplenotprofits on 4:24 pm on Jan. 14, 2003

Quote: from truthaddict11 on 7:54 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
totally agree. smiths system is total anarcho-capitalist. if he believes that the economy would actually be better by doing whatever the fuck they want guess what?
E-X-P-L-O-I-T-A-T-I-O-N.


Yeah man why would be people want to use their own free will to make desisions?
Good thing I have you authoritarians to tell me what to do.


i am not an authoritorian i am making the point if buisnesses have the ability to do whatever they please they would exploit their workers. did you even read the first two posts?

Buisnesses don't exist only individuals do.
See thats the problem with collectivist logic.You are always trying herd everyone into some random arbitrary class or group.
"If there were no 'laws' or 'higher authority' to tell everyone what to do , then people would get 'exploited'.It would be complete chaos."

[Smoking Frog II]

Quote: from Ghost on 10:16 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
And if they are "flawed" and are still going, it makes you wonder how flawed communism must have been to barely be around any more.


All forms of Communism and Socialism have been officially over for 10 years, so says President bUSH sENIOR.

[Moskitto]

Actually Switzerland votes on all legislation so has far greater voting rights than the US, Also they have extremely low taxes on spending.

[truthaddict11]

peoplenotprofits, you are missing my point: Say if a company wants to make its workers work for an extremly small wage and long hours ie sweatshops. if there is not even the slightest control over things like setting a living wage the buisness would exploit thier workers. what do you think all those trade agreements do? more power of buisness and less government(or the people) intrevention to stop the company from making a profit of off exploitation.

(Edited by truthaddict11 at 5:49 am on Jan. 15, 2003)

[Geddan]

Capitalist Imperial, is a net worth improvement justifiable even if it requires some serious torture and awful conditions for the workers? America might have the highest household income, but the new generation of Americans will have less income than their parents, I've read.

America's welfare is based on theft and exploitation of underdeveloped countries. By moving factories to foreign countries life gets worse for the foreigners and jobs available in the US decrease.

I've read somewhere, can't really remember where, that the US average household income is so large because of the top 2 percents being very rich, and that the poorer half is poorer than most 1st world countries. Think I read it in Rogue States or something.

(Edited by Geddan at 7:32 pm on Jan. 15, 2003)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Moskitto on 10:16 am on Jan. 15, 2003
Actually Switzerland votes on all legislation so has far greater voting rights than the US, Also they have extremely low taxes on spending.


Switzerland is small enough to do that. In america there is voting on direct legislation at the state level, so we have that sort of representation too.

Tax on spending may be small, but government income tax is high

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Geddan on 6:26 pm on Jan. 15, 2003
Capitalist Imperial, is a net worth improvement justifiable even if it requires some serious torture and awful conditions for the workers? America might have the highest household income, but the new generation of Americans will have less income than their parents, I've read.

America's welfare is based on theft and exploitation of underdeveloped countries. By moving factories to foreign countries life gets worse for the foreigners and jobs available in the US decrease.

I've read somewhere, can't really remember where, that the US average household income is so large because of the top 2 percents being very rich, and that the poorer half is poorer than most 1st world countries. Think I read it in Rogue States or something.

(Edited by Geddan at 7:32 pm on Jan. 15, 2003)


Well, I don't see much of that, most Americans I see, and I mean regular,working middle class people, live pretty well, and usually a little better than europeans (who I think have the 2nd best standard).

As for american companies on foreign soil, it is a mytht that they make conditions worse. Locals flock to those jobs because the compoensation at those factories is better than indigeonous work.

We are actually improving those regions, not hurting them.

[antieverything]

But it still means that you were lying, CI.


US in #1 in

average household income

voting rights

homeownership

business ownership


Here are the facts:

Home ownership:

Ireland 82% Japan 60
Spain 80 Portugal 59
Luxembourg 77 United States 59
Norway 73 Finland 58
Belgium 72 Sweden 55
Greece 72 France 54
Italy 68 Netherlands 46
United Kingdom 67 Germany 40
Canada 64 Switzerland 29
Denmark 60

Percent of families earning two paychecks:

United States 58%
Japan 33
France 33
Italy 20
Germany 18
Netherlands 16

Average Household Debt

United States $71,500
United Kingdom 35,500
Germany 27,700
France 27,650
Netherlands 5,000
Switzerland 800

Average Household Savings

Japan $45,118
Switzerland 19,971
Denmark 18,405
France 17,649
Germany 17,042
Norway 15,196
Netherlands 14,282
Finland 12,387
Sweden 10,943
United Kingdom 7,451
United States 4,201

Investment (percent of GDP):

Japan 30.6%
Norway 28.8
Switzerland 26.6
Finland 24.8
Canada 22.0
Netherlands 21.4
Germany 19.9
Sweden 19.7
United Kingdom 19.2
Denmark 18.0
United States 17.1

Inequality of income (0 = most equal society, 100 = the least equal):

United States 99
Canada 83
Netherlands 82
Switzerland 79
United Kingdom 78
Germany 66
Norway 60
Sweden 60

Average CEO's pay as a multiple of an average
worker's pay:

United States 17.5
United Kingdom 12.4
Japan 11.6
Canada 9.6
France 8.9
Germany 6.5

Percent of Union Membership in Workforce:

Sweden 85.3%
United Kingdom 41.5
Canada 34.6
Germany 33.8
Japan 26.8
Netherlands 25.0
United States 16.4

Size of Middle Class:

Japan 90.0%
Sweden 79.0
Norway 73.4
Germany 70.1
Switzerland 67.2
Netherlands 62.5
Canada 58.5
United Kingdom 58.5
United States 53.7

Poverty level:

United States 17.1%
Canada 12.6
United Kingdom 9.7
Switzerland 8.5
Germany 5.6
Sweden 5.3
Norway 5.2

Children under the poverty level:

United States 22.4%
Canada 15.5
United Kingdom 9.3
Switzerland 7.8
Sweden 5.0
Germany 4.9
Norway 4.8

Deaths from malnutrition (per million):

Men Women
United States 7 13
France 4 9
Canada 5 7
Japan 2 1
United Kingdom 1 2
Norway 0 1

Head Start (percent of age group enrolled in preschool)

2-year olds 3-year olds 4-year olds
France 35.7% 96.3 100
Norway 22.8 31.6 44.1
Finland 20.2 16.0 19.6
Germany 9.1 32.3 71.6
United Kingdom 1.3 25.9 69.2
United States 0.0 28.9 49.0

HEALTH CARE

Health Care Expenditures (percent of GDP)

United States 13.4%
Canada 10.0
Finland 9.1
Sweden 8.6
Germany 8.4
Netherlands 8.4
Norway 7.6
Japan 6.8
United Kingdom 6.6
Denmark 6.5

Doctors' incomes:

United States $132,300
Germany 91,244
Denmark 50,585
Finland 42,943
Norway 35,356
Sweden 25,768

Percent of population covered by public health care:

ALL NATIONS (except below) 100%
France, Austria 99
Switzerland, Spain, Belgium 98
Germany 92
Netherlands 77
United States 40

Life Expectancy (years):

Men Women
Japan 76.2 82.5
France 72.9 81.3
Switzerland 74.1 81.3
Netherlands 73.7 80.5
Sweden 74.2 80.4
Canada 73.4 80.3
Norway 73.1 79.7
Germany 72.6 79.2
Finland 70.7 78.8
United States 71.6 78.6
United Kingdom 72.7 78.2
Denmark 72.2 77.9

Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births):

United States 10.4
United Kingdom 9.4
Germany 8.5
Denmark 8.1
Canada 7.9
Norway 7.9
Netherlands 7.8
Switzerland 6.8
Finland 5.9
Sweden 5.9
Japan 5.0

Death rate of 1-to-4 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):

United States 101.5
Japan 92.2
Norway 90.2
Denmark 85.1
France 84.9
United Kingdom 82.2
Canada 82.1
Netherlands 80.3
Germany 77.6
Switzerland 72.5
Sweden 64.7
Finland 53.3

Death rate of 15-to-24 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):

United States 203
Switzerland 175
Canada 161
France 156
Finland 154
Norway 128
Germany 122
Denmark 120
United Kingdom 114
Sweden 109
Japan 96
Netherlands 90

Premature Death (years of life lost before the age of 64 per 100 people):

United States 5.8 years
Denmark 4.9
Finland 4.8
Canada 4.5
Germany 4.5
United Kingdom 4.4
Norway 4.3
Switzerland 4.1
Netherlands 4.0
Sweden 3.8
Japan 3.3

Percent of people with normal body mass:

Men Women
Germany 53% 37
Finland 51 37
United Kingdom 46 38
Canada 52 29
Switzerland 49 30
France 44 30
Denmark 44 25
United States 47 22
Sweden 44 25

Percent of people who believe their health care system needs fundamental change:

United States 60%
Sweden 58
United Kingdom 52
Japan 47
Netherlands 46
France 42
Canada 38

percentage of families headed by single parents:

United States 8.0%
Germany 6.7
Netherlands 6.7
Canada 5.6
Denmark 5.1
France 5.1
United Kingdom 4.0
Sweden 3.2
Japan 2.5
Sex education is more prevalent in Europe than America, where conservatives oppose it on the grounds that it condones sexual behavior. The statistics show the unintended consequences of this policy:

Sexually active teenage population:

Norway 66%
United States 65
United Kingdom 57
Germany 56
Canada 53
Italy 34
France 34

Percent who have not had intercourse by age 20:

Boys Girls
Belgium 61 63
Netherlands 58 62
Germany 33 28
Norway 33 25
United Kingdom 24 23
France 9 25
United States 12 16
Percent of sexually active single 15 to 19-year olds using birth control:

Germany 95%
United Kingdom 92
Netherlands 88
Norway 87
Sweden 79
Denmark 70
United States 56

Teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers:

United States 98.0
United Kingdom 46.6
Norway 40.2
Canada 38.6
Finland 32.1
Sweden 28.3
Denmark 27.9
Netherlands 12.1
Japan 10.5

Total teen abortions per 1,000 teenagers:

United States 44.4
Norway 21.1
Sweden 19.6
Denmark 18.2
Finland 17.9
United Kingdom 16.9
Canada 16.2
Japan 5.9
Netherlands 5.5

CRIME

People per police officer:

Sweden 328
Canada 358
United Kingdom 400
United States 459
Netherlands 553
Japan 556
Denmark 594
France 632
Finland 643
Norway 661

Annual reports of police brutality (per 100,000 people)

United States 92.5
United Kingdom 6.0
France 0.7

Prisoners (per 1,000 people):

United States 4.2
United Kingdom 1.0
Germany 0.8
Denmark 0.7
Sweden 0.6
Japan 0.4
Netherlands 0.4

Death row inmates:

United States 2,124
Japan 38
Europe and Canada 0

Murder rate (per 100,000 people):

United States 8.40
Canada 5.45
Denmark 5.17
Germany 4.20
Norway 1.99
United Kingdom 1.97
Sweden 1.73
Japan 1.20
Finland 0.70

Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people):

United States 24.4
Canada 2.6
Sweden 2.3
Norway 2.3
Finland 2.3
Denmark 2.2
United Kingdom 2.0
Netherlands 1.2
Germany 0.9
Japan 0.5

Rape (per 100,000 people):

United States 37.20
Sweden 15.70
Denmark 11.23
Germany 8.60
Norway 7.87
United Kingdom 7.26
Finland 7.20
Japan 1.40

Armed robbery (per 100,000 people)

United States 221
Canada 94
United Kingdom 63
Sweden 49
Germany 47
Denmark 44
Finland 38
Norway 22
Japan 1

Average hours worked per year:

Japan 2,173
United States 1,890
Sweden 1,808
United Kingdom 1,771
Netherlands 1,756
Finland 1,744
Norway 1,725
Denmark 1,699
Germany 1,668

Average paid vacation per year:

Finland 35.0 days
Germany 30.0
France 25.5
Denmark 25.0
Sweden 25.0
United Kingdom 25.0
Netherlands 24.0
Switzerland 22.0
Norway 21.0
United States 12.0

How employers rate their employees (100 = strong identification with company objectives):

Japan 84.7
Switzerland 70.8
Denmark 68.4
Germany 64.3
Norway 60.7
Finland 60.4
Netherlands 58.5
France 57.9
United States 56.4
Sweden 56.0
Canada 52.2
United Kingdom 48.1

Voter participation:

Germany 87%
Sweden 86
Norway 83
Netherlands 80
Finland 76
United Kingdom 75
Canada 75
United States 49

Number of politically motivated demonstrations, strikes, riots and armed attacks over 30 years:

United Kingdom 5,136
United States 4,258
France 1,566
Germany 622
Japan 524
Canada 260
Finland 63
Netherlands 57
Denmark 55
Switzerland 39
Sweden 33

The United Nations Human Freedom Index (0 = least freedom, 40 = most freedom.):

Sweden 38
Denmark 38
Netherlands 37
Austria 36
Finland 36
France 35
Germany 35
Canada 34
Switzerland 34
Australia 33
United States 33
Japan 32
United Kingdom 32

[Capitalist Imperial]

Interesting stats. However, I wasn't really lying.

As for homeownership, I was taliking about new home-buying, primarily in the 20th century. Those nations that count home ownership include land that has been passed down of hundreds of years. America is still catching up.

As for new home purchasesm, America is #1

I know that americans do have a debt to equity problem, but average household income is still the highest

you must also consider ease of starting a business, and voting rights, and government regulation

[antieverything]

I don't know about average household income but America is third in GDP per capita...but I'll admit that it doesn't mean much as the other two countries (Luxumburg and Norway) have some unfair advantages. It is important to note that way more American families have both adults work than European ones which would account for a higher average income per household.


As for homeownership, I was taliking about new home-buying, primarily in the 20th century.That's a pretty random stat...but it is way different than what you asserted. The fact is America has a much lower rate of home-ownership than most of Europe. I assume you are saying that we are improving and that's good to hear considering the real-estate market problems we have looming.

[antieverything]

And what is this about Americans paying high income tax? Who the hell have you been talking to, a rep from Citizens for a Sound Economy?

[Geddan]

The US, improving the areas the multinational corporations control? Hell no, it's slavery.

Antieverything, I am honored to see that Sweden has scored well in a number of areas, and I hope that I can improve it to even better standards!

[Invader Zim]

God those statistic really make you think dont they. I mean the levels of unemployment ect and destitution.

CI what was did you say about the highest standard of living.


"Tell me something, if their ideas are so "flawed", then why are they still in practice today.

And if they are "flawed" and are still going, it makes you wonder how flawed communism must have been to barely be around any more. "

You very well know the reason why its still inpractise. Because the rich are in power, and you dont stay rich without exploting the people. And you dont get in power without being rich.

[kidicarus20]

Yah adam smith is a fuck that is way over rated, not as over rated as ayn rand though, she was just looney

[Invader Zim]

Ayne Rand???

[Domitian]

Quote: from Guest on 10:21 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
"American workers have the best living standard of anyone on earth. "

Actually it's something like 6th...and the sad thing is that Canada, who gets all their money from America has been #1 for almost a decade.


Why sadly? If you are proud of your country and it's living condition shouldn't you be glad that it can be even better? And Canada is a socialist country - That just proved communism could work. (in parts)

(Edited by Domitian at 11:03 pm on Jan. 18, 2003)

[Invader Zim]

Why sadly? If you are proud of your country and it's living condition shouldn't you be glad that it can be even better? And Canada is a socialist country - That just proved communism could work. (in parts)


Damn right

[antieverything]

What...the...fuck!?