All you cappies The U.S.A is not great!! - The most hypocrit

[Invader Zim]

Im fed up of Capatalist Impirialist bull shiting away as if all the cows have died.

All i need to say about the Nuke issue is Harry Truman killer of 6-12 million people. They cant tell the exact number because most of the victims were vaporised!!

But what was the excuse, we had to test it.

Today "we will stamp down on the Axis of Evil", any one who disagree's with the U.S.A. But who's been in the most wars, had the most political assasinations, and politiacal coups. The great U.S.A. All the time condeming the building of N.Korea'n nukes, but building loads of their own. Is it only me who can see the Hypocracy of this.

CI try argue with those facts.

[Smoking Frog II]

AK47, I am your devoted follower. take no bullshit from CI or Mazdak.

[Moskitto]

ak47 is great, he take no bullshit from no one.

he's also got an a* in history.

[Som]

he's also got an a* in history.

Sure as hell doesnt seem it.

80,000 people lived in hiroshima, 140,000 in Nagasaki. Even with the after effects of the radiation, you can't get anywhere near 6 - 12 million people.

Historys bad enough without making things up.



(Edited by Som at 10:43 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)

[Capitalist Imperial]

[quote]Quote: from AK47 on 9:11 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
"Im fed up of Capatalist Impirialist bull shiting away as if all the cows have died."

Wow, this is a new sentiment on this board. I didn't realize that you felt this way (sarcasm)

"All i need to say about the Nuke issue is Harry Truman killer of 6-12 million people. They cant tell the exact number because most of the victims were vaporised!!"

"Most"? I assume by "vaporised" you are refering to when the US saved 100's of thousands of lives in a prolonged invasion of mainland japan by using the atomic bomb. In that case lives lost were in the 100's of thousands. So, if my math is correct,that is not "most" of 6-12 million. Perhaps some remedial math courses would serve you well.

"But what was the excuse, we had to test it."

The saving of American lives. Besides, any Japaneze lives lost in WWII are ultimately the responsibility of Japan. They attacked us, remember?

"Today "we will stamp down on the Axis of Evil", any one who disagree's with the U.S.A. But who's been in the most wars, had the most political assasinations, and politiacal coups. The great U.S.A. All the time condeming the building of N.Korea'n nukes, but building loads of their own. Is it only me who can see the Hypocracy of this."

Read my post on the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. The world agreed that the US could have nuclear weapons, and that North Korea could not. Both the US and North Korea, as well as the world, signed to this agreement.

"CI try argue with those facts."

They are not facts, and I just did, and pretty easily I might add.


(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 11:15 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Moskitto on 10:04 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
ak47 is great, he take no bullshit from no one.

he's also got an a* in history.


LOL, an A in history?

what are your schools' standards? did his history teacher tell mim that the bombs at hiroshima and nagasaki vaporized 3-6 million people ("most" of the 6-12 million lives he claimed americ has taken)? LOL, LOL

He also cannot distinguish between a "fact" and an "opinion".

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 10:48 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)

[Moskitto]

Quote: from Som on 10:37 pm on Jan. 13, 2003

he's also got an a* in history.

Sure as hell doesnt seem it.

80,000 people lived in hiroshima, 140,000 in Nagasaki. Even with the after effects of the radiation, you can't get anywhere near 6 - 12 million people.

Historys bad enough without making things up.



(Edited by Som at 10:43 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)


More were killed at Hiroshima, a lot more, I don't know why everyone says more were killed at Nagasaki, but the deaths at Nagasaki were much lower and didn't even surpass the deaths in Tokyo when they firebombed it.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Smoking Frog II on 9:14 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
AK47, I am your devoted follower. take no bullshit from CI or Mazdak.


I guess following dogmatic ignorance is par for the course among leftists.

[j]

Here's a link on the death tolls of Nagasaki and Hiroshima:

http://www.uic.com.au/nip29.htm

Ya know, I wish that people would attempt to get their facts right. 6 million people? If you throw out a figure like that, back it up. I fear my comrades and fellow lefties are making themselves appear stupid when posting shit like this.

In reality, the dropping of the A-bomb was wrong. The typical reaction to this is that it saved many more lives that would have been killed if the war had been continued. But that is a bullshit response. You can not unequivocally say this. No one can accurately predict this sort of thing. The instant annihilation of close to 500,000 people is wrong anyway you slice it.

j

[j]

I believe that the nuclear non-proliferation treaty also said that the countries with nukes (US, UK, USSR[Russia], France, who I am forgetting?) would also disarm themselves. They would also help countries who needed assistance in the production of non-weapon nuclear technology.

j

[Smoking Frog II]

I would like to point out that more people in Hiroshima died after the explosion than we vapourised. Youi didn't finish it quickly for those Japanese, youi killed them slowly. TORTURERS.

Oh yeah, just because I support someone, it doesn't mean i'm their slave. So fuck you CI.

[Stormin Norman]

But what was the excuse, we had to test it.

I don't remember that ever being used as an excuse. I sure as hell don't remember ever needing an excuse other than ending the war that they started with us. Remember Pearl Harbor?

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from j on 2:06 am on Jan. 14, 2003
Here's a link on the death tolls of Nagasaki and Hiroshima:

http://www.uic.com.au/nip29.htm

Ya know, I wish that people would attempt to get their facts right. 6 million people? If you throw out a figure like that, back it up. I fear my comrades and fellow lefties are making themselves appear stupid when posting shit like this.

In reality, the dropping of the A-bomb was wrong. The typical reaction to this is that it saved many more lives that would have been killed if the war had been continued. But that is a bullshit response. You can not unequivocally say this. No one can accurately predict this sort of thing. The instant annihilation of close to 500,000 people is wrong anyway you slice it.

j


Great Job. I'm a capitalist but I have been long opposed to any use of nuclear weapons because of the long lasting radiation affects, and the precedent it sets in the future for a country being maybe to eager to use such a powerful weapon. The Japanese attacked the US, sure, but that was at a strategic military base, not on top of the homes of hundreds of thousands of civilians eating breakfast with their kids, wives, parents, etc. But when I see statistics as posted by AK-47, saying 12 million people were killed in the attacks, it pisses me off a lot more than somebody trying to justify the attacks. The truth should always be enough in any point somebody is trying to state. If you have to fluff it up like this, chances are you have a weak mind, and cannot do it yourself using the truth. And after, nobody will be willing to listen to you, AK-47. Your ignorance has shown us that anything you say must have a citation to a reliable, neutral site, or that your word must not be listened to. So, for you and all of the other dumbass leftists who aren't saying anything useful, shut the fuck up and leave it to other leftists like j to argue something you may believe in.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from Moskitto on 11:48 pm on Jan. 13, 2003

Quote: from Som on 10:37 pm on Jan. 13, 2003

he's also got an a* in history.

Sure as hell doesnt seem it.

80,000 people lived in hiroshima, 140,000 in Nagasaki. Even with the after effects of the radiation, you can't get anywhere near 6 - 12 million people.

Historys bad enough without making things up.



(Edited by Som at 10:43 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)


More were killed at Hiroshima, a lot more, I don't know why everyone says more were killed at Nagasaki, but the deaths at Nagasaki were much lower and didn't even surpass the deaths in Tokyo when they firebombed it.


When the Americans bombed Tokyo in response to the Pearl Harbor attacks, it has been said, time and time again, by the Japanese and the Americans now, that the casualties were extremely minimal. It was an attack only to get morality up in the soldiers who had started island hopping at the time. And more than that, this is easily justified, as the main target in the Tokyo raid were military factories, not an entire city with very little, if any military activity, such as Nagasaki or Hiroshima. So I reiterate, lefties use reliable info, don't make up facts based on your strong feelings to make your point the right one. Because, the right point, is the point that gains popularity, without having to lie.

[Moskitto]

I'm not talking about the attacks straight after pearl harbour, i'm talking about the incendery bomb attacks of May 10 1945 where 100,000 - 140,000 people died (more than Nagasaki.)

This is well known to be the largest death toll of conventional bombing ever (more than Dresen,) This is not based on any personal feelinngs of mine, It is listed as such in
The Guinness book of Records
The Times Atlas of World History

[Invader Zim]

LOL, an A in history?

what are your schools' standards

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 10:48 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)


Far higher than the american standarts thats for sure!. Considering that are A levels are considered to be on the same level as american degree's far higher.

"80,000 people lived in hiroshima, 140,000 in Nagasaki. "

How do you know that exactly. Were you their, but thats like saying that Hitler was a nice little man bought all the children of Germany a nice little bunny rabbit.

Any way i get my facts from the following Book "the second world war volume VI 'Trumph and tradagy'" by Winston S Churchill.

He states from presonal interviews at the time that "as all the remains and records were destroyed in the explosion, one can only estimate at the loss of life in the incident. However one can say that it is prudent to estimate the casualties range between six to twelve million lives during the incident, and after as the victims contracted burns and sickness."

(Edited by AK47 at 7:01 pm on Jan. 14, 2003)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from AK47 on 6:59 pm on Jan. 14, 2003


LOL, an A in history?

what are your schools' standards

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 10:48 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)


Far higher than the american standarts thats for sure!. Considering that are A levels are considered to be on the same level as american degree's far higher.

"80,000 people lived in hiroshima, 140,000 in Nagasaki. "

How do you know that exactly. Were you their, but thats like saying that Hitler was a nice little man bought all the children of Germany a nice little bunny rabbit.

Any way i get my facts from the following Book "the second world war volume VI 'Trumph and tradagy'" by Winston S Churchill.

He states from presonal interviews at the time that "as all the remains and records were destroyed in the explosion, one can only estimate at the loss of life in the incident. However one can say that it is prudent to estimate the casualties range between six to twelve million lives during the incident, and after as the victims contracted burns and sickness."

(Edited by AK47 at 7:01 pm on Jan. 14, 2003)


pure conjecture

and your math was still off

[Invader Zim]

In responce to all that bull about saving american lives. An extract from the book "Reflections Of The Second World War".

"It can be concluded that the Japanese would have the recorces and man power to continue the war for another three-five months, before the exustion of their supplys."

Also considering the possibility that Japan could have continued fighting Indefinatley, which is highly unlikley, dropping the weapon on a battleship would have caused the war to end only killing the militarily employed crew a valid target in war. Rather than the civilians.

Even if you disagree with that their was still no need for the second bomb.

Quote from SN "I don't remember that ever being used as an excuse. I sure as hell don't remember ever needing an excuse other than ending the war that they started with us. Remember Pearl Harbor?"

Yes i do, but considering that the USA had encircled Japan with its navy and was blocking any oil, and food supplys entering japan i support the bombing of pearl harbour. You must remember that the U.S.A was starving Japan to death. In that situation that is the only logical thing to do.

[Capitalist Imperial]

[quote]Quote: from AK47 on 7:17 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
"In responce to all that bull about saving american lives. An extract from the book "Reflections Of The Second World War".

"It can be concluded that the Japanese would have the recorces and man power to continue the war for another three-five months, before the exustion of their supplys.""

So you suggest that we should have continued to sacrifice American lives for 3-5 months? That makes a lot of sense.


"Even if you disagree with that their was still no need for the second bomb."

America gave Japan ample time (2 days) to surrender after the 1st bomb, but japaneze leadership wanted to "think about it". Apparently Hiroshima was not enough even for the japaneze brass to be fully convinced. They, therefore, are responsible for nagasaki even more so that hiroshima.

"Quote from SN "I don't remember that ever being used as an excuse. I sure as hell don't remember ever needing an excuse other than ending the war that they started with us. Remember Pearl Harbor?"

Yes i do, but considering that the USA had encircled Japan with its navy and was blocking any oil, and food supplys entering japan i support the bombing of pearl harbour. You must remember that the U.S.A was starving Japan to death. In that situation that is the only logical thing to do."

There you go, AK47 "supports the bombing of pearl harbor". What more needs to be said?

Well, one thing does:

The deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki are ultimately the fault of the Japaneze, and no one else.

[Goldfinger]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:44 pm on Jan. 13, 2003

the US saved 100's of thousands of lives in a prolonged invasion of mainland japan by using the atomic bomb.

OMG!!! CI FELL IN THE WATER!!! HE'S GONNA DROWN IF WE DON'T HELP... LET'S SHOOT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Apocalypse When on 7:38 pm on Jan. 14, 2003

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 11:44 pm on Jan. 13, 2003

the US saved 100's of thousands of lives in a prolonged invasion of mainland japan by using the atomic bomb.

OMG!!! CI FELL IN THE WATER!!! HE'S GONNA DROWN IF WE DON'T HELP... LET'S SHOOT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!

I was talking mostly about american lives, which were unequivocly saved

even accounting for japaneze lives, there was still a net-benefit in lives saved, but the american lives themselves were enough justification

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 7:54 pm on Jan. 14, 2003)

[Hampton]

So American lives are more important than Japanese lives?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Hampton on 8:54 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
So American lives are more important than Japanese lives?


I'm not saying that. But did you really expect the USA to sacrifice thousands of American lives by prolonging war with japan so we can save the lives of the enemy instead?

How does that work?

What you suggest is that the USA sends its own people to die, when they can prevent them from dying by taking a different course of action.

Of course a nation will choose its own citizens' lives over the lives of the enemy if it comes down to that choice, right?

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 9:04 pm on Jan. 14, 2003)

[Som]

Quote: from AK47 on 6:59 pm on Jan. 14, 2003


"80,000 people lived in hiroshima, 140,000 in Nagasaki. "

How do you know that exactly. Were you their, but thats like saying that Hitler was a nice little man bought all the children of Germany a nice little bunny rabbit.

Any way i get my facts from the following Book "the second world war volume VI 'Trumph and tradagy'" by Winston S Churchill.

He states from presonal interviews at the time that "as all the remains and records were destroyed in the explosion, one can only estimate at the loss of life in the incident. However one can say that it is prudent to estimate the casualties range between six to twelve million lives during the incident, and after as the victims contracted burns and sickness."

(Edited by AK47 at 7:01 pm on Jan. 14, 2003)


Thats the statistic. (seems off, but it was in that range) Every other source beyond that little blurb you say have uses that. We know the bomb radius's were relativly small, and that hiroshima and nagasaki didn't have anywhere near 6-12 million people in them, and since the japanese population doesn't have much in the way of non-urban populations, anything anywhere near that much has no base. Maybe your adding a couple zeros somewhere.

Also, You didn't use the word casuality in the beggining post, you used the word kill.
Casuality implies killed or injured.
Thats everyone from instantly to a few bruises.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from AK47 on 7:59 pm on Jan. 14, 2003


LOL, an A in history?

what are your schools' standards

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 10:48 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)


Far higher than the american standarts thats for sure!. Considering that are A levels are considered to be on the same level as american degree's far higher.

"80,000 people lived in hiroshima, 140,000 in Nagasaki. "

How do you know that exactly. Were you their, but thats like saying that Hitler was a nice little man bought all the children of Germany a nice little bunny rabbit.

Any way i get my facts from the following Book "the second world war volume VI 'Trumph and tradagy'" by Winston S Churchill.

He states from presonal interviews at the time that "as all the remains and records were destroyed in the explosion, one can only estimate at the loss of life in the incident. However one can say that it is prudent to estimate the casualties range between six to twelve million lives during the incident, and after as the victims contracted burns and sickness."

(Edited by AK47 at 7:01 pm on Jan. 14, 2003)


I can see your school standards are extremely high. You speak english so well. And lets think about this, I'm Italian and you're english. Am I missing something or are you just an ignorant moron who can't even speak one language corectly. I must be missing something. Then, you're history also. 12 million dead, really? Thats odd since there were only a few hundred thousand in the cities all together. And your logic is absolutely genius. Saying that in all, 220,000 people died in the atomic attacks, while using sources, is exactly like saying Adolf Hitler gave everybody little bunny rabbits. You enlighten me more and more everyday, AK-47. I hope that one day I can too, be on your level of intelligence. I am sorry for taking up your time, and ever doubting you.

[RedComrade]

What I never understood about those who supported the bombs arument is thus: the japanese islands were surrounded and isolated. To the best of my knowledge the islands were the only thing remaining in the japanese's hands. Why instead of invading or dropping the bomb didnt we siege them out. With a naval blockade and a relentless conventional bombing campaign on military targets couldnt we have brought the japanese to their knees? We could have allowed food shipments to be let in but nothing else. The food would keep the people from starving. Certainly the military would not be starved out without a major humanitarian disaster but it would be possible to deprive them of oil. Without oil the japanese military machine would collapse and the war would end without an invasion or a nuclear weapon.


(Edited by RedComrade at 10:03 pm on Jan. 14, 2003)

[Ghost]

I don't know what I think about this.

On the one hand, the atomic bombs caused Japan to offer their unconditional surrender, but on the other hand, the war would have been won eventually.

How many extra lives would have been lost if the fighting continued instead of the two bombs being dropped?

[RedComrade]

It is my beleif that under the system I proposed above many more lives would have been saved. The fighting couldnt continue when Japan ran outta gas to fly their planes...

[Ghost]

But what about their ground troops?

[RedComrade]

What about their ground troops. Infantry division without air and armor support would be eaten alive by a WW2 era army. The japanese wouldnt have lasted 2 seconds without the support of their airforce, navy, and armored division against a force with all of those things and 2 allied superpowers behind them...

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from RedComrade on 10:01 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
What I never understood about those who supported the bombs arument is thus: the japanese islands were surrounded and isolated. To the best of my knowledge the islands were the only thing remaining in the japanese's hands. Why instead of invading or dropping the bomb didnt we siege them out. With a naval blockade and a relentless conventional bombing campaign on military targets couldnt we have brought the japanese to their knees? We could have allowed food shipments to be let in but nothing else. The food would keep the people from starving. Certainly the military would not be starved out without a major humanitarian disaster but it would be possible to deprive them of oil. Without oil the japanese military machine would collapse and the war would end without an invasion or a nuclear weapon.


(Edited by RedComrade at 10:03 pm on Jan. 14, 2003)


we would still be risking american lives in bombers and aircraft in a conventional bombing campaign, even if for a short while

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from RedComrade on 10:31 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
What about their ground troops. Infantry division without air and armor support would be eaten alive by a WW2 era army. The japanese wouldnt have lasted 2 seconds without the support of their airforce, navy, and armored division against a force with all of those things and 2 allied superpowers behind them...


the US had very, very little allied support in the pacific theatre.

for all intents and purposes, the US fought alone in the pacific, especially east of japan, all while also fully committing to europe

[timbaly]

Even if that blockade idea would work the US didn't want the Soviets to gain more land. They had just entered the war less than a month after the bombs were dropped and were already steadily gaining land in Korea and Manchuria.

[Invader Zim]

"Even if you disagree with that their was still no need for the second bomb."

America gave Japan ample time (2 days) to surrender after the 1st bomb, but japaneze leadership wanted to "think about it". Apparently Hiroshima was not enough even for the japaneze brass to be fully convinced. They, therefore, are responsible for nagasaki even more so that hiroshima.



If you really believe that then you should not be here but in a mental hospital. You are basically justifing the blatent murder of millions, with no apparant need.

The japanease had surrendered. They had telegramed the USA but while it was being sent the second bomb was dropped.

[Tkinter1]

Actually the death tolls were around 130,000 people, not millions. And we had one huge reason to drop the bomb:To convince Japan to surrender, and thus end the war.

Japan had ample time to surrender after the first bomb.

They we're training and mobilizing ground forces(mostly civilians with bamboo sticks), preparing themselves for an invasion, which would have cost the lives of millions...And you would rather have had this happen?

(Edited by Tkinter1 at 10:20 pm on Jan. 16, 2003)

[j]

I don't really think you can justify the bombing. It may have saved American lives but it cost thousands of Japenese lives. The main problem I find with the dropping of the A-Bomb is the target--civilians. It is state sponsored terrorism at its "best." If 200,000 american soldiers died, that would have been better than 200,000 Japenese civilians.

You need to distinguish between civilians and soldiers. You can not sacrifice civilian lives for soldier lives. It is the JOB of the soldier to fight and he/she has the potential to be killed--that is his basic job description. A civilian SHOULD NEVER BE TARGETED. This is the thing that people need to understand. War is to be fought by willing combatants with other willing combatants. When combatants fight civilians (Nazi Germany, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, 9/11) it is pure terrorism.

j

[IHP]

CI:"the US had very, very little allied support in the pacific theatre.

for all intents and purposes, the US fought alone in the pacific, especially east of japan, all while also fully committing to europe"

You forget that the Anzacs routed the Japanese army in Papua New Guinea, and rolled them back north.

--IHP

[Tkinter1]

"I don't really think you can justify the bombing. It may have saved American lives but it cost thousands of Japenese lives."

The US saved thousands of Japanses lives too! An all out invasion of Japan(which would have been inevitable) would have cost thousands, if not hundreds of thousands more.

"The main problem I find with the dropping of the A-Bomb is the target--civilians. "

They selected the targets they did [/i]becuase of the lack of population. The objective was to avoid a large number of civilian casualties, yet still convey an affective message.

"You need to distinguish between civilians and soldiers."

The only other choice would have been to invade. More civilians would have died fighting than in the bombs.


"War is to be fought by willing combatants with other willing combatants."

The Japanses civilians [i]were willing combatants. They would have fought to the death if invaded!

[antieverything]

I've heard this argument many times but the fact is that an invasion of Japan was never even on the table...it wasn't even necessary, the blitz bombing is what ended the war, not the A-bomb. AK47 is wrong, the fighting went on for weeks after both bombs were dropped before Japan surrendered.

Your death toll numbers are for Hiroshima only. Both A-Bombs caused a death toll of 200,000+ not counting later deaths caused by the radiation.

[Tkinter1]

"I've heard this argument many times but the fact is that an invasion of Japan was never even on the table..."

Its pretty widley known that 3.5 million Allied soldiers were set to invade Japan if they didn't surrender. Are you sure you're right about this one?

And the estimated death tolls were a bit above what I said, something around 270,000(Including deaths caused by radiation I believe). http://www.csi.ad.jp/ABOMB/

In any case, more lives would have been lost on both sides with an invasion.

[antieverything]

Oh, yeah. I was a little confused. The invasion was planned by not until November, several months down the road. The plan was to blitz Japan into submission...they certainly wouldn't have lasted until November seeing as they were prepared to surrender in July and would have but for a few crazy generals.

[Invader Zim]

The efficency of the US propagander machine is with out doubt far more effective on the capitalists. Do you think a corrlation between denial and atrosity could be measured.

[Smoking Frog II]

Absoloutely No-one can argue that America is the most hypocritical nation on Earth. Cappies can't argue with that, AK47.

[Smoking Frog II]

Oh yeah, me and my friend were having an argument. Is the AK47 a machine gun or a type of rifle?

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Smoking Frog II on 4:50 pm on Jan. 17, 2003
Oh yeah, me and my friend were having an argument. Is the AK47 a machine gun or a type of rifle?
Its a fully automatic sub-machine gun based on a german model used in the war.

[Smoking Frog II]

Cheers.

[Guest]

Smoking FrogII, shut up.

You have to be the biggest idiot on this board.
You hide behind other people and lack the intelligence
to do anything other then that.

Now go run off like a good little troll.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 10:55 pm on Jan. 13, 2003

Quote: from Smoking Frog II on 9:14 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
AK47, I am your devoted follower. take no bullshit from CI or Mazdak.


I guess following dogmatic ignorance is par for the course among leftists.

thats highly uncalled for C. I. :)
anyways lookE here, all of you!!
the Japanese Emperor, the swine as he was, demanded that the atomic bomb be dropped on a few of his cities, so that he could surrender from the war honerably, so it really wasnt soo much America's falt that time, Japan was an evil power, Japan's empire, started the war, and asked the bombs to be dropped, this is prolly one of the only incidents in which u cant blame America completely, after WW2 however, America certainly started to be the "bad guy" and instigator, just because of its unserpassed power in the world,
this is for both CI and all of my comrades, the Japanese incident, WAS BOTH AMERICA AND JAPANS FAULT
just my 2 cents


also for smoking frog. . . the AK-47 was THE russian premeir assault riffle, it was based on the StG 44 a german/russian design, both were russian in design, only the germans stole and used the stg44
i think thats the story on that gun, but im not 100% sure

(Edited by CompadreGuerrillera at 1:17 am on Jan. 18, 2003)


(Edited by CompadreGuerrillera at 1:19 am on Jan. 18, 2003)

[antieverything]

No argument here that Japan was an evil empire but I'll come out and say it: I don't believe you that the emporer demanded that we drop the atomic bomb. I don't even think that he knew about it.

[lifetrnal]

Cappies,

You seem to want to re-write history yourselves. You make it sound a triffle-that HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, by your conservative esstimates, were killed with nuclear weapons... weapons the United States used on a nation that was about to surrender. Do you want to get into the MILLIONS of people that were killed by the United States in WWII in the PURPOSFUL bombing of civilian targets... like Dresden or Tokyo... no matter, you probably think that the millions of people we cooked alive had it coming to them. Right?

[lifetrnal]

I just wanted to post this for all the people who are saying that the use of the atom bomb in WWII had something to do with shorting the war. This is a quote from the following web site:

Secondly, the belief that using the bomb shortened the war is contradicted by serious historical analysis. Having invested astronomical sums in the Manhattan Project, there was no way the US Government was not going to use the bomb.
This commitment to actual use necessitated evading any possibility of accepting surrender until such time as the bomb could be dropped. This meant a prolongation of the war and a consequential increase in Allied casualties. Let me produce some very reputable military witnesses for this interpretation.
In Volume VI of his History of the Second World War, Winston Churchill writes: It would be a mistake to suppose that the fate of Japan was settled by the atomic bomb. Her defeat was certain before the first bomb fell and was brought about by overwhelming maritime power.
Field Marshal Montgomery wrote in his History of Warfare: It was unnecessary to drop the two atom bombs on Japan in August 1945, and I cannot think it was right to do so .... the dropping of the bombs was a major political blunder and is a prime example of the declining standards of the conduct of modern war.
General Eisenhower himself said: Japan was at that very moment seeking some way to surrender with minimum loss of face.It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.
Truman’s Chief of Staff, Admiral Leahy, wrote: It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons ... In being the first to use it, we adopted an ethical standard common to the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in this fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
Nor can the use of the atomic bombs be justified by evoking racist stereotypes of Japanese fanatics fighting on regardless of orders to surrender. Bushido, the Japanese military code, demanded absolute unquestioning obedience every bit as much as it did bravery. If the Emperor says surrender, then that is what must be done, at once and without question.
After the surrender of Nazi Germany in May, it was obvious to all that Japan was doomed. By late 1945, Japan did not have one single plane left, and American pilots could fly and bomb at will. Toyko, Nagoya, Osaka, Kobe, Yokohama were already utterly destroyed. Japan was defeated, on the point of surrender, and known to be so.
The Japanese Foreign Office had officially notified Moscow on May 13 that the Emperor is desirous of peace.
The Soviet Union ignored these moves because under the Yalta agreement it was due to enter the war against Japan three months after the surrender of Germany, and it was keen to do so.
US intelligence knew of these approaches to Moscow. Work on the Manhattan Project was speeded up in fear that Japan might surrender before the bomb could be used.
The two target cities had been left undamaged throughout the war because they were already selected for the experiment - the actual word used by Truman and Major Groves (head of the Manhattan Project) at the time.
On August 8 the Soviet Union declared war on Japan, and invaded Manchuria. A Soviet invasion of mainland Japan was now a distinct possibility. This would have meant a joint occupation, as in Germany. It was the determination to prevent this that caused the Americans to accept now the continuance of the Emperor as Head of State - the one and only condition which the Japanese had been asking for since May - and also induced the Japanese to accept the humiliation of a formal unconditional surrender.
The use of the bomb was not so much the final act of the Second World War, as a spectacular demonstration of American power in the opening moves of the new Cold War. Indeed, the then US Secretary of War, Stimson, admitted that the bomb was used to get a political advantage over the Soviet Union in the post-war situation.
The widespread national comfort-myth about the use of the atom bomb must be abandoned once and forever. Hiroshima was our Original Sin. We will never be at peace with ourselves and with the world until we find the honesty and courage to admit our guilt, apologise to the Japanese people, and forever forswear any threat to repeat such an appalling war crime.

[lifetrnal]

I just wanted to post this for all the people who are saying that the use of the atom bomb in WWII had something to do with shorting the war. This is a quote from the following web site:

Secondly, the belief that using the bomb shortened the war is contradicted by serious historical analysis. Having invested astronomical sums in the Manhattan Project, there was no way the US Government was not going to use the bomb.
This commitment to actual use necessitated evading any possibility of accepting surrender until such time as the bomb could be dropped. This meant a prolongation of the war and a consequential increase in Allied casualties. Let me produce some very reputable military witnesses for this interpretation.
In Volume VI of his History of the Second World War, Winston Churchill writes: It would be a mistake to suppose that the fate of Japan was settled by the atomic bomb. Her defeat was certain before the first bomb fell and was brought about by overwhelming maritime power.
Field Marshal Montgomery wrote in his History of Warfare: It was unnecessary to drop the two atom bombs on Japan in August 1945, and I cannot think it was right to do so .... the dropping of the bombs was a major political blunder and is a prime example of the declining standards of the conduct of modern war.
General Eisenhower himself said: Japan was at that very moment seeking some way to surrender with minimum loss of face.It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.
Truman’s Chief of Staff, Admiral Leahy, wrote: It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons ... In being the first to use it, we adopted an ethical standard common to the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in this fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
Nor can the use of the atomic bombs be justified by evoking racist stereotypes of Japanese fanatics fighting on regardless of orders to surrender. Bushido, the Japanese military code, demanded absolute unquestioning obedience every bit as much as it did bravery. If the Emperor says surrender, then that is what must be done, at once and without question.
After the surrender of Nazi Germany in May, it was obvious to all that Japan was doomed. By late 1945, Japan did not have one single plane left, and American pilots could fly and bomb at will. Toyko, Nagoya, Osaka, Kobe, Yokohama were already utterly destroyed. Japan was defeated, on the point of surrender, and known to be so.
The Japanese Foreign Office had officially notified Moscow on May 13 that the Emperor is desirous of peace.
The Soviet Union ignored these moves because under the Yalta agreement it was due to enter the war against Japan three months after the surrender of Germany, and it was keen to do so.
US intelligence knew of these approaches to Moscow. Work on the Manhattan Project was speeded up in fear that Japan might surrender before the bomb could be used.
The two target cities had been left undamaged throughout the war because they were already selected for the experiment - the actual word used by Truman and Major Groves (head of the Manhattan Project) at the time.
On August 8 the Soviet Union declared war on Japan, and invaded Manchuria. A Soviet invasion of mainland Japan was now a distinct possibility. This would have meant a joint occupation, as in Germany. It was the determination to prevent this that caused the Americans to accept now the continuance of the Emperor as Head of State - the one and only condition which the Japanese had been asking for since May - and also induced the Japanese to accept the humiliation of a formal unconditional surrender.
The use of the bomb was not so much the final act of the Second World War, as a spectacular demonstration of American power in the opening moves of the new Cold War. Indeed, the then US Secretary of War, Stimson, admitted that the bomb was used to get a political advantage over the Soviet Union in the post-war situation.
The widespread national comfort-myth about the use of the atom bomb must be abandoned once and forever. Hiroshima was our Original Sin. We will never be at peace with ourselves and with the world until we find the honesty and courage to admit our guilt, apologise to the Japanese people, and forever forswear any threat to repeat such an appalling war crime.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from i hate pinochet on 11:30 pm on Jan. 16, 2003
CI:"the US had very, very little allied support in the pacific theatre.

for all intents and purposes, the US fought alone in the pacific, especially east of japan, all while also fully committing to europe"

You forget that the Anzacs routed the Japanese army in Papua New Guinea, and rolled them back north.

--IHP




good point, but I did not forget. I said they had very little support, not no support. I meant they had no full committment from another nation like the efforts in europe

the US was the only naion to have full committment i both theatres

[Smoking Frog II]

Quote: from Guest on 7:11 pm on Jan. 17, 2003
Smoking FrogII, shut up.

You have to be the biggest idiot on this board.
You hide behind other people and lack the intelligence
to do anything other then that.

Now go run off like a good little troll.



Oh yeah? I thought Mazdak was. Oh yeah, by the way, I'm not. So fuck you you wanker. You're too much of a fucking chicken-wuss to talk properly. You have to guest post you fucking bastard. Fuck you, hypocritical shit hole mother fucker

are you gonna kill poor people? Are you gonna bomb the middle east. You think your'e so hard you fucking wanker just because you've got your nation and your nukes. Fuck you coward. Fuck you. Your evil empire is gong down fucker.

Oh yeah, one last thing, I'm no troll. IM A FROG. And a smoking one at that. so fuck you wuss-wanker-mother-fucker-father-cocksucker-shit-fingerin'-finger-lickin'-good-chicken-corporate-****.

[Guest]

Oh yeah? I thought Mazdak was. Oh yeah, by the way, I'm not. So fuck you you wanker. You're too much of a fucking chicken-wuss to talk properly. You have to guest post you fucking bastard. Fuck you, hypocritical shit hole mother fucker

Now stand up and take your head out of your ass.


are you gonna kill poor people? Are you gonna bomb the middle east. You think your'e so hard you fucking wanker just because you've got your nation and your nukes. Fuck you coward. Fuck you. Your evil empire is gong down fucker.

I'm not from the U.S

Oh yeah, one last thing, I'm no troll. IM A FROG. And a smoking one at that. so fuck you wuss-wanker-mother-fucker-father-cocksucker-shit-fingerin'-finger-lickin'-good-chicken-corporate-****.

A SmokingFrog, how fucking smart.

Now how about you shut the fuck up you dick-sucking-arse-hole-licking-faggot-ass-brain-dead-moron.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from Smoking Frog II on 9:28 pm on Jan. 18, 2003

Quote: from Guest on 7:11 pm on Jan. 17, 2003
Smoking FrogII, shut up.

You have to be the biggest idiot on this board.
You hide behind other people and lack the intelligence
to do anything other then that.

Now go run off like a good little troll.



LOL. Smoking frog you worthless trash. I am ignorant. According to what i see here, that is quite the opposite of the truth. For one thing, i know how to spell.

And second... Japan had offered to surrender at least six times before Truman dropped the bomb. SIX TIMES. They were willing to stand down. The United States simply wanted to(in plain terms) make Stalin shit his pants and become more willing to negotiate more in the favor of the US.

I dont know why i am suddenly considered at all unintelligent. I am amongst people like Smoking Frog, Communist Chris, AK 47 and other assholes of this sort yet i am the stupid one?!

Let me ask you how many of the above actually even read the Manefesto or any philosophical work? You probably didnt because you are a bunch of semi illiterate flaming fucks. Now please, for the sake of the left, drink some Drain-O.

Oh yeah? I thought Mazdak was. Oh yeah, by the way, I'm not. So fuck you you wanker. You're too much of a fucking chicken-wuss to talk properly. You have to guest post you fucking bastard. Fuck you, hypocritical shit hole mother fucker

are you gonna kill poor people? Are you gonna bomb the middle east. You think your'e so hard you fucking wanker just because you've got your nation and your nukes. Fuck you coward. Fuck you. Your evil empire is gong down fucker.

Oh yeah, one last thing, I'm no troll. IM A FROG. And a smoking one at that. so fuck you wuss-wanker-mother-fucker-father-cocksucker-shit-fingerin'-finger-lickin'-good-chicken-corporate-****.

[Smoking Frog II]

OK smart arse, tell me.

What have I spelled wrong?

[Mazdak]

LOL. Smoking frog you worthless trash. I am ignorant. According to what i see here, that is quite the opposite of the truth. For one thing, i know how to spell.

And second... Japan had offered to surrender at least six times before Truman dropped the bomb. SIX TIMES. They were willing to stand down. The United States simply wanted to(in plain terms) make Stalin shit his pants and become more willing to negotiate more in the favor of the US.

I dont know why i am suddenly considered at all unintelligent. I am amongst people like Smoking Frog, Communist Chris, AK 47 and other assholes of this sort yet i am the stupid one?!

Let me ask you how many of the above actually even read the Manefesto or any philosophical work? You probably didnt because you are a bunch of semi illiterate flaming fucks. Now please, for the sake of the left, drink some Drain-O.

[Smoking Frog II]

Quote: from Guest on 11:33 pm on Jan. 18, 2003
Oh yeah? I thought Mazdak was. Oh yeah, by the way, I'm not. So fuck you you wanker. You're too much of a fucking chicken-wuss to talk properly. You have to guest post you fucking bastard. Fuck you, hypocritical shit hole mother fucker

Now stand up and take your head out of your ass.


are you gonna kill poor people? Are you gonna bomb the middle east. You think your'e so hard you fucking wanker just because you've got your nation and your nukes. Fuck you coward. Fuck you. Your evil empire is gong down fucker.

I'm not from the U.S

Oh yeah, one last thing, I'm no troll. IM A FROG. And a smoking one at that. so fuck you wuss-wanker-mother-fucker-father-cocksucker-shit-fingerin'-finger-lickin'-good-chicken-corporate-****.

A SmokingFrog, how fucking smart.

Now how about you shut the fuck up you dick-sucking-arse-hole-licking-faggot-ass-brain-dead-moron.


Guest posting wuss. Fuck you.

Oh yes Mazdak.

Oh, so when did I say you can't spell? or are you storming norman in disguise?
Or can't I spell? Ok, tell me. What have I mispelt?

ps.] Cool bass guitar. plug it in.

[Bored of Education]

Japaneze
Hehe! :)

So much hate in this thread.. can't all you people with different views just get along? Communist, Capitalist, whatever you may be we're all human and have common beliefs and/or interests. So why don't you show that and stop being cocks to each other? I realize I'm new and really have no place to be throwing this shit around, but I'm just trying to be honest. It's like a constant feud between two gangs on these boards.. it's kind of sad

:(

[Mazdak]

..... how can i plug it in if i dont have an amp for it and i am at a friends house.

Is that the best you can do you ignorant little fuck. It isnt just you, but almost all the so called "socialists" here that i am tired of dealing with.

Does anyone remember a time when the cappies and the lefties actually had interesting debates. What i see now is a capitalists makes an argument and the typical leftist responds "Fuck yoo capee" or something to that effect.

[Bored of Education]

Quote: from Mazdak on 6:52 pm on Jan. 19, 2003
Is that the best you can do you ignorant little fuck. It isnt just you, but almost all the so called "socialists" here that i am tired of dealing with.
Was that to me?

[Mazdak]

No.

[Bored of Education]

Oh.

[Mazdak]

ok

[Bored of Education]

Ya

[Mazdak]

No.

[Bored of Education]

http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbs2.gif

[Mazdak]

WTF?!

[Bored of Education]

http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Anonymous]

This conversation has certainly reached a new level.

[Bored of Education]

http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/images/smilies/band.gif

[Mazdak]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/fidel.gif


(Edited by Mazdak at 4:23 am on Jan. 20, 2003)

[Bored of Education]

Haha!

Anyway what was going on in this thread before all the 2 word responses and emoticons? http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif

(Edited by Bored of Education at 10:00 am on Jan. 20, 2003)