New American Empire? - From US News and World Report

[j]

Check out this link:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/030113/...sc/13empire.htm (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/030113/misc/13empire.htm)

what do you think?

j

[Capitalist Imperial]

Good article.

I believe that there is a difference between extending a sphere of influence/protecting one's interests and imperialism.

[Anonymous]

we dont give a shit to what you believe....


imperialist scum

[antieverything]

Extending sphere of influence to protect one's interests BY taking control of policy and destroying sovereignty of other nations is about as close to imperialism as one can get without collecting actual "taxes" although what we have done is pretty damn close.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Hardly. We don't take control of policy or destroy sovereignty, we only protect them.

[Umoja]

What is your definition of protecting soveriegn nations?

[antieverything]

He means that any leftist government is automatically illegitimate...brutal fascist dictators, on the other hand...

[j]

OK, I may be overstepping my bounds here and the lefties may be angry with me, but why the fuck is CI the ONLY one to actually go and READ the article???

I'm sick of fucking people putting in their two cents without actually reading what the whole thread is about!!! It's a sad state of affairs when a fucking cappie is more insightful.

The article is actually relatively good. It puts a lot of things into perspective and is actually a good article from the mainstream press.

I believe that the US is engaging in imperialistic acts. Although, as the article states, after 9/11 so much changed. What is an empire anyway? Wouldn't some corporations qualify as empires?

j

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from j on 12:49 am on Jan. 14, 2003
OK, I may be overstepping my bounds here and the lefties may be angry with me, but why the fuck is CI the ONLY one to actually go and READ the article???

I'm sick of fucking people putting in their two cents without actually reading what the whole thread is about!!! It's a sad state of affairs when a fucking cappie is more insightful.

The article is actually relatively good. It puts a lot of things into perspective and is actually a good article from the mainstream press.

I believe that the US is engaging in imperialistic acts. Although, as the article states, after 9/11 so much changed. What is an empire anyway? Wouldn't some corporations qualify as empires?

j

we must distinguish between territorial (colonial) imperialism, and other forms, such as economic imperialism, military imperialism, even "cultural imperialism"

[j]

The definition of empire or imperialism is exactly what I'm talking about.

Would you agree that the US is an empire in terms of economic and cultural imperialism?

This of course could be extended to corporations as well. See Coca Cola or Nike.

j

[antieverything]

I read the fucking article, I get the magazine at my house...a piece of conservative shit most of the time but every now and then the have something pretty good.

[RedComrade]

"As a benevolent and sovereign empire, the United States reserves the right to maintain and extend its sphere of influence and protect its interests wherever they are." Capitalist Imperial on the U.S Backed Coup Forum

Capitalist Imperial this really seems to contradict claims by the right that the U.S is not imperialist in nature. I would love to see an empire that is not imperialistic. Furthermore in todays world a nation can certainly be an empire with out colonization, colonization was a means not an end. The goal was the incorporation of the territorys resources and economy into the empires sphere of influence. It was also about maintaining a degree of control over the regions military and government affairs so as to insure that this economic hegemony could continue. At the time the best means to achieve these goals was by direct occupation of the territories(colonization). In a day of split second communications, supersonic jets, and ballistic missiles it is no longer necessary to occupy and colonize a territory to control it as the U.S has demonstrated with decades of the rape and slaughter of Central and South America. The U.S IS an empire and is the largest and most powerful empire with the largest sphere of influence of any empire ever to scar the earth....

[HankMorgan]

No. Americans really are stingy. They don't like to pay taxes and they don't like to see the lives of their young people squandered. People here protest at the least little troop movement even if it's for a good cause.

There is a tiny group of people like Bin Laden who are preventing the US and the Islamic countries from living as peaceful neighbors. They made a miscalculation and doomed their cause.

When the troublemakers are gone, the US will go back to watching NFL football and playing video games. An empire would be way too much effort.

[Stormin Norman]

I believe that there is a difference between extending a sphere of influence/protecting one's interests and imperialism.

Thank you!

Why didn't you say so before? I have been debating these fucks for months about this particular issue. Is it true what they said? Am I an embarassment to you guys on the right? Is that why you didn't speak up?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 5:54 pm on Jan. 14, 2003

I believe that there is a difference between extending a sphere of influence/protecting one's interests and imperialism.

Thank you!

Why didn't you say so before? I have been debating these fucks for months about this particular issue. Is it true what they said? Am I an embarassment to you guys on the right? Is that why you didn't speak up?

An embarassment? Hardly. To the contrary, SN, you are among our greatest assets.

[antieverything]

The methods that we use to increase our sphere of influence are imperialistic in themselves. They destroy soveriegnty of democratically elected governments to protect our interests...this is much more than "protecting our sovereignty."

[Stormin Norman]

That is were we disagree, antieverything.


An embarassment? Hardly. To the contrary, SN, you are among our greatest assets.
CI, I didn't think that was it, but antieverything said something to that effect. You are also a valued ally in this war against everything putrid.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from antieverything on 6:24 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
The methods that we use to increase our sphere of influence are imperialistic in themselves. They destroy soveriegnty of democratically elected governments to protect our interests...this is much more than "protecting our sovereignty."


We destroy no sovereignty. We merely protect existing sovereignty and establish new sovereignty in our support of revolutions for freedom.

[timbaly]

revolutions of freedom? You must be kidding. Why do you continue to say the US supported freedom when they're installing murderous dictators? The US help put the shah of iran into power, pinochet, and papa doc. What freedoms did those men protect?

Sovereignty - Complete independence and self-government. A territory existing as an independent state.

The CIA coups took place in sovereign nations. These places had there own gov'ts. Salvador Allende was democratically elected in Chile. What right did the US have to overthrow his legally democratically elected gov't? A sovereign nation is entitled to self gov't without any outside interference from other nations.

[ravengod]

american imperialism is a fact
at least it might be effectively stopped by china
or by the european union

[Kapitan Andrey]

Whole world must stand against anerican imperialism!!!
They see all of us as their slaves!!! I don't want to be a slave, I rather DIE , then be a slave of u.s.a!!!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from ravengod on 10:52 pm on Jan. 18, 2003
american imperialism is a fact
at least it might be effectively stopped by china
or by the european union


What a fucking Stupid Ass.

Not that either of those factions could really stop us, but lets just say for arguments sake that China actually had a chance.

Do you really think that they would be a better super-power than the United States? Do you think that they would grant more freedoms? They would not endorse freedom of speech, or freedom of religion, or freedom of the press. In fact, they would encourage and probably propogate censorship!

Maybe you should ask the Tibetan monks or some recent visitors to Tieneman Square about how great China is.

You need to go back to poli-sci class before you type such ignorant rubish on this board.

As for the EU, they can't even put a universal currency together, let alone topple history's greatest empire.

[Ghost]

Oh my God. I think you are the idiot if you think the USA is the greatest empire the world has ever seen!

1. The USA has no empire.

2. History rightly records The British Empire as the biggest and greatest empire the world has ever seen. We controlled over 1 quarter of the land, and controlled all of the seas and oceans. No-one could stand up to us.

America's military history especially is littered with failures, and people will stand up to them.

What a fool.

But I do agree with you where the EU is concerned!

[Invader Zim]

Sorry even other cappies are nocking you now! Does this not tell you something.

Ghost i totaly agree with you about the USA but i still recon you dont give the Euro enough of a chance. CI if you recall any of your history then you will know that it took the USA decades to form a strong currancy. I mean look what happened to the Confederates, they never made a strong currancy.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Ghost on 10:15 pm on Jan. 24, 2003
Oh my God. I think you are the idiot if you think the USA is the greatest empire the world has ever seen!

1. The USA has no empire.

2. History rightly records The British Empire as the biggest and greatest empire the world has ever seen. We controlled over 1 quarter of the land, and controlled all of the seas and oceans. No-one could stand up to us.

America's military history especially is littered with failures, and people will stand up to them.

What a fool.

But I do agree with you where the EU is concerned!


what failure, besides vietnam, has america suffered?

none!

come on, ghost, it is you who are a fool if you don't understand that american influence stretches over 100% of the globe and into space!!!

[Eastside Revolt]

Has America suffered!!!!!!!! I guess you don't consider native peoples or blacks to be American, eh!!!!!!!

[Eastside Revolt]

Quote: from Ghost on 10:15 pm on Jan. 24, 2003
Oh my God. I think you are the idiot if you think the USA is the greatest empire the world has ever seen!

1. The USA has no empire.

2. History rightly records The British Empire as the biggest and greatest empire the world has ever seen. We controlled over 1 quarter of the land, and controlled all of the seas and oceans. No-one could stand up to us.

America's military history especially is littered with failures, and people will stand up to them.

What a fool.

But I do agree with you where the EU is concerned!


And you my freind, are trippin' out.

[Mazdak]

I wish to challenge ghosts claim that the British had the greatest empire and state the Mongol Empire/Khanate of Ghenghis Khan and his successors was easily larger. It was the largest empire in the history of Earth. That, according to what i heard, and just by looking at maps, is obvious and a fact.

The Mongols controlled almost all of asia, and a huge portion of central europe.

What did the British control? Pieces of Africa, ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and a few chunks of southeast Asia. Even the Russian Empire could probably challenge that claim.

[ID2002]

CI wrote: "what failure, besides vietnam, has america suffered?
none! "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Umm, lets see.... its failed in its duty as a country to promote PEACE. Its failed by sending munitions to Pol Pot and inturn 100,000's of innocent S. Vietnamese died. Its dropped more mines in the world than any other country...which are still blowing kids arms and limbs off....sometimes blowin' up its adventurous American backpackers on hiking in Cambodia. It aggrivates the middle east until radical Islamic groups plot terrorist attacks....SEPT 11. All because of American stupidity.

...god damn the list is huge.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Mazdak on 4:20 am on Jan. 25, 2003
I wish to challenge ghosts claim that the British had the greatest empire and state the Mongol Empire/Khanate of Ghenghis Khan and his successors was easily larger. It was the largest empire in the history of Earth. That, according to what i heard, and just by looking at maps, is obvious and a fact.

The Mongols controlled almost all of asia, and a huge portion of central europe.

What did the British control? Pieces of Africa, ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and a few chunks of southeast Asia. Even the Russian Empire could probably challenge that claim.


The Bitish Empire: -
http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/ralph/ralimage/map37bri.jpg
The Mongolian empire: -
http://www.***************/whitehistory/119.jpeg

Yes i see what you mean, but if all of India, australia, Canada + alaska, indoneasia and half of africa are put too gether then it is very large.

[Capitalist Imperial]

you can't count alaska, the english never controlled it

[Invader Zim]

sorry i forgot that was russian until they sold it for 5 dollars or somthing like that. Bet they regret that now. LOL

[Mazdak]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/Mongolian_Empire.gif

As compared too:
http://www.friesian.com/images/maps/world-br.gif

That, also includes all the territories owned by Britain at one point or another, it doesnt show one specific time frame.

[Invader Zim]

yes it is quite hard to tell from that, you really need a map of the Mongolian empire from a world perspective.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from AK47 on 4:30 pm on Jan. 25, 2003
sorry i forgot that was russian until they sold it for 5 dollars or somthing like that. Bet they regret that now. LOL



LOL, yeah, when we bought it, some people called it "seward's folly" (seward was the senator that brokered the deal) we got it for, like, 2 cents per square mile (or acre). It turned out to be possibly the greatest real estate deal (not counting territory usurped in war) in world history, LOL

[Mazdak]

true. However, another thing to take into consideration is the British Empire consisted of many small islands and bits of pieces here and there. Most of it was ocean. The Mongols, on the other hand, with far less technology, conquered a huge empire entirely land based.

[Invader Zim]

Yes but the technology and horsemanship of the mongles was legendary at the time. They had at the time a comparitivly large amount of Technology. Didnt they invent the hourse shoe?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from ID2002 on 9:06 am on Jan. 25, 2003
CI wrote: "what failure, besides vietnam, has america suffered?
none! "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Umm, lets see.... its failed in its duty as a country to promote PEACE. Its failed by sending munitions to Pol Pot and inturn 100,000's of innocent S. Vietnamese died. Its dropped more mines in the world than any other country...which are still blowing kids arms and limbs off....sometimes blowin' up its adventurous American backpackers on hiking in Cambodia. It aggrivates the middle east until radical Islamic groups plot terrorist attacks....SEPT 11. All because of American stupidity.

...god damn the list is huge.



But none of those are American military failures per se. They are, in your opinion, American policy mistakes.

I maintain that the only military operation ever conducted by US military forces in which our objectives were not fully realized was the vietnam conflict, and that was even more of a political debaucle than a military one, as our forces were very effective on the battlefield.

BTW, failed to promore peace?

America has:

Kept south korea free for decades

liberated kuwait

backed the UN in delivering food to somalia

led d-day to liberate nazi occupied europe

defended muslims in kosovo

liberated the afghani people from the taliban regime

staved off soviet invasion of western europoe for 50 years during the cold war

how can you ignore these peacekeeping initatives?


Yes, the list is long, ID2002, I agree!!! The list of American peacekeeping and liberation efforts!

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 6:37 pm on Jan. 25, 2003

Quote: from ID2002 on 9:06 am on Jan. 25, 2003
CI wrote: "what failure, besides vietnam, has america suffered?
none! "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Umm, lets see.... its failed in its duty as a country to promote PEACE. Its failed by sending munitions to Pol Pot and inturn 100,000's of innocent S. Vietnamese died. Its dropped more mines in the world than any other country...which are still blowing kids arms and limbs off....sometimes blowin' up its adventurous American backpackers on hiking in Cambodia. It aggrivates the middle east until radical Islamic groups plot terrorist attacks....SEPT 11. All because of American stupidity.

...god damn the list is huge.



led d-day to liberate nazi occupied europe

staved off soviet invasion of western europoe for 50 years during the cold war


Naughty naughty CI the USA did not leed the DDay operation, it was a joint operation.
Admittedly US troops faced the famous MG42 positions at omaha beach. But the Brits lost 12 tanks at sword beach alone. Also consider that the whole British part of the operation only had like 40 tanks thats a huge loss to the British.
This a little something i found that shows the scale of what the Brit's faced: -

http://www.dday.co.uk/img341.gif

I just thought that you were stealing the glory of the dead British troops CI.

"staved off soviet invasion of western europoe for 50 years during the cold war"
Most people on this site would probebly want that CI.



(Edited by AK47 at 7:17 pm on Jan. 25, 2003)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Absolutely, AK-47, I apologize. I wan to take nothing away from Britains sacrifice at D-day and WW2.

I have just been taught that the US spearheaded the attack, I guess ts a matter of antional interpretation. But you are right, it was absolutely a joint effort. I also would like to mention the battle of the buldge, and B-17's of the Mighty Eighth Air Force and their Mustang Escorts (with British RR Merlin Engines, I know) in daylight raids over Berlin, delivering ordinance straight on the Nazi war machine.

""staved off soviet invasion of western europoe for 50 years during the cold war"
Most people on this site would probebly want that CI."

LOL, so true!

[Invader Zim]

Its OK.

LOL and you say are history teachers suck.

(Edited by AK47 at 7:51 pm on Jan. 25, 2003)