America: Torture Capital of the World - By John Dolan

[synthesis]

America, Torture Capital of the World
By John Dolan

Take a bow, all you pillars of the community. Torture's going strong in every state in America, and you taxpayers are the ones who make it possible.

Don't think I mean some sort of figurative torture. I mean real torture.

In the past few years, almost one million Americans have been imprisoned for having the good taste to prefer various pharmaceuticals to booze. And those people are being subjected to the most horrific tortures imaginable. Right now. In a prison near you.

Real tortures. Starting with gang rape by an endless succession of psycho thugs, and including sexual slavery of the most blatant, literal sort, often ending with murder of the sex slave by bludgeoning or stabbing when his sale value is gone.

Don't pretend this is news to you, scum. You know it. Everybody knows it. No doubt many of you applaud it: “Can't have those prisons turning into country clubs.” Unless it's the minimum-security institution to which Ivan Boesky was sentenced. That really was a country club. Nobody raped Boesky. He'd vanish for weeks; “another of Ivan's vacations,” his fellow inmates said. Guards loved him. (A $10,000 tip goes a long way.) He lives in his mansion in La Jolla now, unharmed by his stint in minimum-security. But then he only stole a billion or so, wrecked the lives of a few hundred thousand trusting investors. He didn't do anything really bad, like smoking pot.

For the evil pot smoker unlucky enough to get put through the meatgrinder, it's torture. Rape, terror, HIV, and, very possibly, death. That's the real penalty for lighting up and not having an expensive attorney. To the best of my knowledge, only one American judge has had the courage to refuse to take part in the torture/rape/slavery network. This judge—a woman in Florida, of all places—had the guts to refuse to sentence a man to prison for smoking marijuana as the state's drug laws demanded. “He's skinny and white with long hair,” she noted. “Guards have told me they can't protect inmates like that.” She felt that several years as a rape-toy for HIV-positive psychos was, perhaps, not the most humane of punishments for the crime of lighting up a joint.

She was censured by the DA, the local newspapers, and the DEA, that bastion of civic virtue. She is not expected to win reelection.

Ah, what scum you are, my fellow Americans! What utter, filthy, pious, canting scum! There hasn't been anything like you since the Brits of the Famine years! If only there were someone to aim a 767 at your office buildings every minute of every day!

Because you know all this perfectly well, don't you. You know all the don't-drop-the-soap jokes about prison. And you know what's likely to happen to a harmless druggie dropped into a Hell like that. You just don't care.

Slavery—you Ashcrofts out there, you lovers of the Confederacy, will be delighted to know that slavery is going strong too, in your noble homeland. Again, I don't mean wage-slavery or anything so ambiguous; I mean literal slavery. Because, you see, when one of these harmless little drug-users, most of whom haven't been in a fight since grade school, are tossed to the monsters who rule American prisons, they become a very saleable commodity. After they've been raped in the ass and mouth a few hundred times, their owners, the Aryan Brotherhood or Muslims or Black Guerrilla Family or Mexican Mafia, get bored with them. They want a new toy. So these terrible “drug criminals,” these smokers of things other than tobacco, are sold. For a carton or two of cigarettes, I am informed. Those who resist being sold are punished. Not by a simple beating, but by quite sophisticated tortures. One which is very popular is to impale the reluctant rape-toy on a metal bar—the more blunt, the better. It causes more agony, you see.

Oh, but you knew all this already, didn't you? Truly, there are no human beings in this world more vile than the respectable Americans.

You know, but you don't want to hear. That's why it's left to the British papers to print the horror stories. Recently a British paper printed the story of a man in Illinois who is suing the state prison system. At the whim of a sadistic functionary in the prison system, this man, who is white, was placed in a cellblock which was all black and controlled by a very tight, military-style prison gang. He was, of course, gangraped, taught to suck cock on demand, used as a urinal and toilet, and otherwise made to entertain his fellow inmates. He tried to kill himself three times, but was stopped—he was too valuable, and as a slave, had no right to dispose of himself. He is “free” now, HIV-positive of course and unlikely to live long enough to finish the lawsuit. The state of Illinois is arguing that nothing excessive or cruel happened to the complainant. He got what he deserved.

One does wonder why this story wasn't picked up by a single American newspaper or network. No, that's a disingenuous remark; I know very well why not. Because, at heart, you churchgoing filth, you utterest scum of the species, not only know but approve of subjecting harmless drug users to non-stop torture.

I am humbled before you—a mere dreamer, a squeamish theorist of torture. It's dizzying to think that you fine specimens are sponsoring tortures that make me sick to contemplate, on a scale I could never have imagined. Sade's ghost bows to you, my lords.

http://exile.ru/150/150140002.html




I came to America because of the great, great freedom which I heard existed in this country. I made a mistake in selecting America as a land of freedom, a mistake I cannot repair in the balance of my lifetime.
-Albert Einstein

[mentalbunny]

That actually made me cry. I really can't express the anger and frustration I feel at reading this article. I knew there were soem bad thiings happening in the US prison system but I really did not know they were that bad. Is there a petition we can sign or some way of showing the world that this cannot continue?

[synthesis]

I really can't express the anger and frustration I feel at reading this article.

I truly share your emotions. My rage at this injustice extends beyonds description.

Is there a petition we can sign or some way of showing the world that this cannot continue?

There is!

The decriminalization, not neccessarily legalization, of ALL drugs, beginning with marijuana!

Rather than waste taxpayers money persecuting a largely harmless demographic of hedonists, why should America not charge a hefty fine, the amount of which is determined by the drug involved and the quantity possessed, to add to the state budget rather than destroying a mostly productive element of the community due to their personal preferences towards recreation?

[Tkinter1]

"Ah, what scum you are, my fellow Americans! What utter, filthy, pious, canting scum!"

...Wow

I predict Marijuana will be decriminalized very soon.

And please, tell me how America the torture capital of the world? Is he implying that other prison systems function flawlesly without these problems?

"I know very well why not. Because, at heart, you churchgoing filth, you utterest scum of the species, not only know but approve of subjecting harmless drug users to non-stop torture."

What a fucking idiot.

Oh yeah and hear Russian prisons are MUCH better....

Stupid Russian trash.


(Edited by Tkinter1 at 1:09 am on Jan. 13, 2003)

[Capitalist Imperial]

First things first...

F*** you Dyer Maker

F*** you and everything you stand for. Your posting of this article has eliminated any sliver of legitimacy that you may have had here.

This piece of filth, worthless, ill-informed article you posted is merely indicative of how desperate, ignorant and sad you really are. I can't believe that even you would endorse this piece of garbage and suggest that any pretense of even 1 iota of responsible journalism exists here.

This article suggests that somehow someone caught with a joint will be thrown into a maximum security penitentiary to be raped and sodomized by violent criminals.

B.S.!!!! I've known people caught with marijuana and pariphanalia by authorities, and I can tell you that the most that usually happens is a confiscation and citation. This is neo-communist propoganda at its finest, and even your average leftist can see this. No one caought with one joint is sent to prison nowadays. Anyone who belives this is true is truly sheltered and ignorant.

Oh, and this part is nothing short of atrocious:

"If only there were someone to aim a 767 at your office buildings every minute of every day!"

F*** you again Dyer Maker, F*** you to death.

Does anyone, and I mean anyone (short of the infamous "Stalinsoldiers") on this board really support this? Apparently DyerMaker does, and it is a sad commentary on his attitude and ignorance.

"Truly, there are no human beings in this world more vile than the respectable Americans."

Except perhaps grossly irresponsible leftist journalists from "Moscow's alternative newspaper".

LOL, "Moscows alternative newspaper". Give me a friggin' break.

[Capitalist Imperial]

I had to bump this. Who even among you leftists accepts this travesty of journalism?

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 10:18 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)

[Larissa]

"Who even among you leftists accepts this travesty of journalism?"

Any human being with common sense.

BTW CI, you seem to be quite narrow minded...

(Edited by Larissa at 7:41 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)

[Anonymous]

That says alot.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Larissa on 10:25 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
"Who even among you leftists accepts this travesty of journalism?"

Any human being with common sense.


(Edited by Larissa at 7:41 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)


"If only there were someone to aim a 767 at your office buildings every minute of every day!"

I'm glad to know that leftist "common sense" supports this.

Have you been to the USA?? do you know how marijuana smokers are treated? I bet not! I do! And I am telling you this article is way off base!

If you believe it, you are ignorant.

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 11:06 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)

[MEXCAN]

That article makes me cry!!!!!!!Come on,does anybody really believe that if you smoke pot,you go to jail?The pathetic journalist should of used the word "traffic" instead of "light up".

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from MEXCAN on 11:06 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
That article makes me cry!!!!!!!Come on,does anybody really believe that if you smoke pot,you go to jail?The pathetic journalist should of used the word "traffic" instead of "light up".

For once, we agree!!

[j]

Jesus Christ. There are TRUE inequities and problems with our prison system. But you choose to champion the pothead that gets raped???? Sure its awful but, come on!!!

What about the thousands who have been unjustly imprisoned for political beliefs (mumia, leonard peltier, fred hampton jr., etc.) or those imprisoned for a crime they didn't commit?? What about racial profiling? What about inequities due to economics?

Please, please don't let me agree with CI anymore!!! This is the second post tonight where I think he is the only one who makes any sense (although I am diametrically opposed to his righty views).

The torture in the US prison system comes from injustice!!! If you wanna smoke pot, you take risks--one of those risks is going to jail. If you don't wanna go to jail conform to the beauties of alcohol.

j

[mentalbunny]

By the way, I don't think it is just by one spliff that they chuck you in those hell-holes they call prisons, and what makes me cry is what it is like om the inside, and it is that bad, this is not exaggeration, it gets pretty bad in the UK too but it's worse in the US.

[Smoking Frog II]

That was one tough article.

Fuck you, Ci. Fuck you. You know it.

Confess, you heartless turd,.

[Larissa]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 7:59 pm on Jan. 13, 2003

Quote: from Larissa on 10:25 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
"Who even among you leftists accepts this travesty of journalism?"

Any human being with common sense.


(Edited by Larissa at 7:41 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)


"If only there were someone to aim a 767 at your office buildings every minute of every day!"

I'm glad to know that leftist "common sense" supports this.

Have you been to the USA?? do you know how marijuana smokers are treated? I bet not! I do! And I am telling you this article is way off base!

If you believe it, you are ignorant.

(Edited by Capitalist Imperial at 11:06 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)


Just for your information, I lived twice in the US because my father was invited by the University of Michigan as a visiting professor (he is a Dentist). I attended Clague Middle School, in Ann Arbor, the town we used to live in. I know how pot smokers are treated, I use to smoke cannabis and had a small cute plant at home.

I think the article, in general does deserve some credit. You only seem to believe what the official media sets in your brains and whatever does not fit your scheme is definitely out of the question and a lie, which is not.

My youngest brother lives in Aspen, Colorado and my whole grandmother's family have lived in the US most part of thier lifes, many of them still do.

What I really can't stand is that you dare call ignorant any person that has a different opinion about your points of view. That's just all what I think.

(Edited by Larissa at 11:41 am on Jan. 14, 2003)


(Edited by Larissa at 11:45 am on Jan. 14, 2003)

[Stormin Norman]

I couldn't have said it better myself, CI. Would you expect anything less from Vox? People who support the kind of thought present in that article are and will remain my natural enemies. They are the lovers of lies and deception. They are the ones who follow the modern day sophists to their doom. They are the ulcer that bleeds America's civil society to death. More disgusting than a rotting corpse, their stench has become overwhelming. I think it is high time America cleanse itself of this type of human garbage. I say the worst thing we could do to North Korea would be to drop these hordes of trogladytes onto their country. They would do far more damage than any bomb, as we have seen here in the good old U.S. of A..

[Disgustipated]

Contrary to what CI thinks, there are people in this country doing life sentences for small quatity drug possession because of the "3 strikes" law. I'm pretty sure that life sentences are carried out in max security prisons. Think of the people that have been sentenced to life. Is it reasonable to have a recreational drug user among them? Marijuana is still illegal because it doesn't have the powerful lobby that tobacco and alchohol have. I don't think anyone here believes that Marijuana has caused as much pain and suffering as alchohol or tobacco.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 6:00 am on Jan. 12, 2003
America, Torture Capital of the World
By John Dolan

Take a bow, all you pillars of the community. Torture's going strong in every state in America, and you taxpayers are the ones who make it possible.

Don't think I mean some sort of figurative torture. I mean real torture.

In the past few years, almost one million Americans have been imprisoned for having the good taste to prefer various pharmaceuticals to booze. And those people are being subjected to the most horrific tortures imaginable. Right now. In a prison near you.

Real tortures. Starting with gang rape by an endless succession of psycho thugs, and including sexual slavery of the most blatant, literal sort, often ending with murder of the sex slave by bludgeoning or stabbing when his sale value is gone.

Don't pretend this is news to you, scum. You know it. Everybody knows it. No doubt many of you applaud it: “Can't have those prisons turning into country clubs.” Unless it's the minimum-security institution to which Ivan Boesky was sentenced. That really was a country club. Nobody raped Boesky. He'd vanish for weeks; “another of Ivan's vacations,” his fellow inmates said. Guards loved him. (A $10,000 tip goes a long way.) He lives in his mansion in La Jolla now, unharmed by his stint in minimum-security. But then he only stole a billion or so, wrecked the lives of a few hundred thousand trusting investors. He didn't do anything really bad, like smoking pot.

For the evil pot smoker unlucky enough to get put through the meatgrinder, it's torture. Rape, terror, HIV, and, very possibly, death. That's the real penalty for lighting up and not having an expensive attorney. To the best of my knowledge, only one American judge has had the courage to refuse to take part in the torture/rape/slavery network. This judge—a woman in Florida, of all places—had the guts to refuse to sentence a man to prison for smoking marijuana as the state's drug laws demanded. “He's skinny and white with long hair,” she noted. “Guards have told me they can't protect inmates like that.” She felt that several years as a rape-toy for HIV-positive psychos was, perhaps, not the most humane of punishments for the crime of lighting up a joint.

She was censured by the DA, the local newspapers, and the DEA, that bastion of civic virtue. She is not expected to win reelection.

Ah, what scum you are, my fellow Americans! What utter, filthy, pious, canting scum! There hasn't been anything like you since the Brits of the Famine years! If only there were someone to aim a 767 at your office buildings every minute of every day!

Because you know all this perfectly well, don't you. You know all the don't-drop-the-soap jokes about prison. And you know what's likely to happen to a harmless druggie dropped into a Hell like that. You just don't care.

Slavery—you Ashcrofts out there, you lovers of the Confederacy, will be delighted to know that slavery is going strong too, in your noble homeland. Again, I don't mean wage-slavery or anything so ambiguous; I mean literal slavery. Because, you see, when one of these harmless little drug-users, most of whom haven't been in a fight since grade school, are tossed to the monsters who rule American prisons, they become a very saleable commodity. After they've been raped in the ass and mouth a few hundred times, their owners, the Aryan Brotherhood or Muslims or Black Guerrilla Family or Mexican Mafia, get bored with them. They want a new toy. So these terrible “drug criminals,” these smokers of things other than tobacco, are sold. For a carton or two of cigarettes, I am informed. Those who resist being sold are punished. Not by a simple beating, but by quite sophisticated tortures. One which is very popular is to impale the reluctant rape-toy on a metal bar—the more blunt, the better. It causes more agony, you see.

Oh, but you knew all this already, didn't you? Truly, there are no human beings in this world more vile than the respectable Americans.

You know, but you don't want to hear. That's why it's left to the British papers to print the horror stories. Recently a British paper printed the story of a man in Illinois who is suing the state prison system. At the whim of a sadistic functionary in the prison system, this man, who is white, was placed in a cellblock which was all black and controlled by a very tight, military-style prison gang. He was, of course, gangraped, taught to suck cock on demand, used as a urinal and toilet, and otherwise made to entertain his fellow inmates. He tried to kill himself three times, but was stopped—he was too valuable, and as a slave, had no right to dispose of himself. He is “free” now, HIV-positive of course and unlikely to live long enough to finish the lawsuit. The state of Illinois is arguing that nothing excessive or cruel happened to the complainant. He got what he deserved.

One does wonder why this story wasn't picked up by a single American newspaper or network. No, that's a disingenuous remark; I know very well why not. Because, at heart, you churchgoing filth, you utterest scum of the species, not only know but approve of subjecting harmless drug users to non-stop torture.

I am humbled before you—a mere dreamer, a squeamish theorist of torture. It's dizzying to think that you fine specimens are sponsoring tortures that make me sick to contemplate, on a scale I could never have imagined. Sade's ghost bows to you, my lords.

http://exile.ru/150/150140002.html




I came to America because of the great, great freedom which I heard existed in this country. I made a mistake in selecting America as a land of freedom, a mistake I cannot repair in the balance of my lifetime.
-Albert Einstein


Wow, your ideas are so ridiculously fucked up I don't even want to try to argue with you. A statement like, "If only there were someone to aim a 767 at your office buildings every minute of every day!" proves to me that you and your ideas would serve the world better dead, instead of infecting these at unsure kids like mentalbunny who are just trying to find out the truth of what has happened, and make the world a better and more peaceful place for all. You are a hypocritical idiot. You condemn the attacks on Nagasaki and Hiroshima specifically for the fact that civilians were slaughtered, and then you say that you want a 747 to crash into office buildings every day in america. You took a real problem in the prisons of not just america, but in the entire world, and then you got off topic, and you showed your unfailing stupidity, and made me forget the fact that this is just healthy debating with friends, and turned that thought into the undying want for you to end your life. You have no idea whatsoever of how the world works, but take my advice. Jump in front of a train as soon as possible you sick fuck.

[Stormin Norman]

This is for any other morons that believe marijuana to be less harmful than cigarettes. Fact is, "herbs" carry 50% more carcinogens than tobacco.

Here is an article that details a recent finding by the British Lung Foundation:BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2419713.stm)

Here is the actual report put out by that organization:BLF_report (http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=5460)

Just to be fair, I will link you to the most avid supporter of recreational marijuana use:NORML (http://www.lunguk.org/news/a_smoking_gun.pdf)

NORML questions the validity of those findings and refers the reader to a John Hopkins University report:John Hopkins report finds no cancer link (http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4144)

The point of this post was to alert the reader to the reality that a scientific debate is currently ensuing concerning the safety of marijuana. To claim that there are no negative health effects from smoking "weed" would be false. More data is needed before such blankets statements can be made either way, something the BLF report clearly indicates. If you want to smoke the stuff, I don't care. I do take issue with people making ignorant statements, as you can tell. Therefore, I would ask that you do at least a bit of superficial research before making such a bold statement. Marijuana is not a benign substance, regardless of how much one would like to believe this to be true.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Larissa on 2:35 pm on Jan. 14, 2003

Just for your information, I lived twice in the US because my father was invited by the University of Michigan as a visiting professor (he is a Dentist). I attended Clague Middle School, in Ann Arbor, the town we used to live in. I know how pot smokers are treated, I use to smoke cannabis and had a small cute plant at home.

I think the article, in general does deserve some credit. You only seem to believe what the official media sets in your brains and whatever does not fit your scheme is definitely out of the question and a lie, which is not.

My youngest brother lives in Aspen, Colorado and my whole grandmother's family have lived in the US most part of thier lifes, many of them still do.

What I really can't stand is that you dare call ignorant any person that has a different opinion about your points of view. That's just all what I think.

(Edited by Larissa at 11:41 am on Jan. 14, 2003)


(Edited by Larissa at 11:45 am on Jan. 14, 2003)


Well, Larissa, if you did visit here, and even had a plant, then you should know that this article's claims as to the punishment andd treatment of someone caught with 1 joint don't even come close to reality.

And the 767 comment is inexcusable.

[xe11]

Ok the 1 joint thing may be a bit extreme, we know that dosnt happen, but this article still hits some key points, prisons are being filled with those who shouldnt be sent to prison! If someone commits a crime that didnt indanger the public, and he or she is not a danger to the public, throwing them in jail for a year isnt going to fix it. If someone sells some drugs, or steals a car, how will throwing them into a jail along side other criminals help make them more fit for the community when they come out?? There only going to get worse. Why fill prisons with people who are no danger to keep out of prison, just because someone decides to traffic drugs, gets caught and is given the title criminal dosnt mean there now going to go around raping and killing. That magic criminal title dosnt make someone a menace to society. Instead of sticking someone in prison, wasting tax dollars and throwing them deeper into the criminal society, have them do community service, clean roads and stuff, punish them by taking away some rights like driving for a period of time and have them still report to someone once a week to make sure there staying clean. How can taking someone who commits a crime and throwing them in a large building full of other criminals, make them a better person?

[mentalbunny]

Don Amodeo, are you left or right, libertarian or authoritarian, becuase it really isn't clear what you think. Also you didn't seem to nitice that this is an article written by someone else, not DyerMaker. Have I made that clear? Thsi does not mean that Dyermaker believes every little word in the article, it means he thought there was a point in posting it and that could mean anything, he might even think it is a stupid article, but somehow I doubt that.

You capitalists say that this is all lies or exaggeration or whatever, when really it is you coming up with the lies, you have been influenced by your wonderful American "free" press and are now spewing out that shit like the good little robots you are!

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 9:56 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
Don Amodeo, are you left or right, libertarian or authoritarian, becuase it really isn't clear what you think. Also you didn't seem to nitice that this is an article written by someone else, not DyerMaker. Have I made that clear? Thsi does not mean that Dyermaker believes every little word in the article, it means he thought there was a point in posting it and that could mean anything, he might even think it is a stupid article, but somehow I doubt that.

You capitalists say that this is all lies or exaggeration or whatever, when really it is you coming up with the lies, you have been influenced by your wonderful American "free" press and are now spewing out that shit like the good little robots you are!

LOL, hardly. Unlike you, I actually live here, and I see reality, I don't read it in some pinko rag like you.

Why don't you submit something of subsatnce for once?

[synthesis]

The article provoked a reaction, particularly a nice, amusing outburst from Capitalist Imperial and a fellow named Don Amodeo, two people whose opinions amount to exactly zero in my book. :)

I should add that mentalbunny is quite correct: some of the vitriol the author spewed... I don't agree with, to say the least.

I will also add one final thing:

Originally, I was going to end the article with a disclaimer of my own, that stated that I approved of the comment about the WTC in no way shape or form... it actually kinda pissed me off. No, it really pissed me off.

I thought the Einstein quote fit much better, though.


(Edited by DyerMaker at 4:15 am on Jan. 15, 2003)

[truthaddict11]

the article was not about the fact someone got arrested for lighting up a joint its about the torture and inhumaness that takes place within the prison system.
the drug part is only there to say that petty crimes such as possesion dont deserve such treatment and no one should in that matter. this is what the rights "war on drugs" and truth in sentencing really does. prohibition doesnt work. its like there is thousands of Al Copones these days

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 10:56 pm on Jan. 14, 2003
Don Amodeo, are you left or right, libertarian or authoritarian, becuase it really isn't clear what you think. Also you didn't seem to nitice that this is an article written by someone else, not DyerMaker. Have I made that clear? Thsi does not mean that Dyermaker believes every little word in the article, it means he thought there was a point in posting it and that could mean anything, he might even think it is a stupid article, but somehow I doubt that.

You capitalists say that this is all lies or exaggeration or whatever, when really it is you coming up with the lies, you have been influenced by your wonderful American "free" press and are now spewing out that shit like the good little robots you are!


Actually, mentalbunny, I don't really know. I find myself arguing with most people, because, even if I believe in the same thing the person is saying, I find out that most people argue the point in a way that seems wrong to me. For instance, I believe we should go to war with Iraq for the sake of the population which is suffering everyday under a brutal regime, and brutal sanctions. But, the problem is that I cannot trust that every soldier in the army won't commit some sort of war crimes, and I know that the american government wants war not for this, but gas, and as in the first gulf war, they might leave the tyrant in power, and ready again to kill those who helped the US. For these among many other things, I have to say that the war is a bad idea and sanctions on Iraq must be repealed at any cost, because Saddam still has a castle, but the children of Iraq are dying everyday. But let it not be confused, I am very much capitalist, for the reason that communism, fascism, and ignorant religion, have been the three biggest killers in the twentieth century, and while communism could set up a functioning system for today, capitalism is creating a way for all to have the chance to get out of poverty in 60-100 years. And it is our duty on this earth to watch out for our sons, who in turn will watch out for theirs, and the chain will continue, and will be the only way to go foward and save the human race, instead of dooming it to end along with the earth, as these three things (communism, fascism, religion) have done so much already in this century. We must at least learn from these mistakes, and not make them any more.

(Edited by Don Amodeo at 3:48 pm on Jan. 15, 2003)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 3:21 am on Jan. 15, 2003
The article provoked a reaction, particularly a nice, amusing outburst from Capitalist Imperial and a fellow named Don Amodeo, two people whose opinions amount to exactly zero in my book. :)

I should add that mentalbunny is quite correct: some of the vitriol the author spewed... I don't agree with, to say the least.

I will also add one final thing:

Originally, I was going to end the article with a disclaimer of my own, that stated that I approved of the comment about the WTC in no way shape or form... it actually kinda pissed me off. No, it really pissed me off.

I thought the Einstein quote fit much better, though.


(Edited by DyerMaker at 4:15 am on Jan. 15, 2003)


Liberal propoganda at its finest.

[mentalbunny]

Well Don (is it ok if I call you that?).

First of all it is my opinion (I'm sure there are facts somewhere but not here at my finger tips) that the gap between rich and poor is getting BIGGER not smaller, I certainly know (ie I have seen facts) that it is in the UK and I assume it's the same in the US, I'm also sure that this is the case on a gloabal scale.

Also, do you really think that any war could get rid of Saddam Hussein? I doubt it, I really do. I think you need to go away and think, think hard about what is going on in the world and how we can really make a difference, because all capitalism does is give the rich a chance to get richer and occasionally the poor to become part of the rich. It's true, don't deny it, cos you'd be wrong if you did.

[Guest]

This is DyerMaker.

as these three things (communism, fascism, religion) have done so much already in this century.

For your definition, communism should more appropriately be called Stalinism, and it should be combined with fascism to form Totalitarianism. Hitler was not fascist, and you wouldn't want to exclude him, wouldja?

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 6:34 pm on Jan. 15, 2003
Well Don (is it ok if I call you that?).

First of all it is my opinion (I'm sure there are facts somewhere but not here at my finger tips) that the gap between rich and poor is getting BIGGER not smaller, I certainly know (ie I have seen facts) that it is in the UK and I assume it's the same in the US, I'm also sure that this is the case on a gloabal scale.

Also, do you really think that any war could get rid of Saddam Hussein? I doubt it, I really do. I think you need to go away and think, think hard about what is going on in the world and how we can really make a difference, because all capitalism does is give the rich a chance to get richer and occasionally the poor to become part of the rich. It's true, don't deny it, cos you'd be wrong if you did.


Firstly, I live in Italy, not the US. Secondly, while communism may be a good idea, look at every communist nation, and tell me how it turned out. Instead of achieving its goals of spreading out the weath, putting govt. on a local level, and getting rid of its weapons, history has shown us that communism has in fact done the opposite. The communist revolution turned the countries' economies into nothing, with money for nobody, gave the entire country into the hands of one man, and the one man tried to hide his evil and failure, by creating a proud military. There is a reason that the communist states have fallen, and now capitalism reigns the earth. As I have said before, I am for a localized government which gives the people more power over what happens around them, I am for the strong measures to eradicate poverty, I place human life over the dollar, and I am against any country containing nuclear power, or spending money on a military, when poverty is the real problem. My only difference with you, Mentalbunny, is that I am capitalistic. I believe in a different way to get to our shared goals, just because history has taught me these things. I often hear people on this site saying "The US will fall just like every empire, there is no way it will be the first," well I am saying the same thing about communsim. Every communist state has turned into a failed, evil, totalitarianistic state. We have seen that communism fails, and what we need to work on is improving the trickle-down capitalistic system, that still does need help.

[synthesis]

There is a reason that the communist states have fallen, and now capitalism reigns the earth.

There is a reason, indeed, that communism has fallen and capitalism reigns supreme.

From the Chronology of Terror (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html):

Guatemala: A CIA-organized coup overthrew the democratically-elected and progressive government of Jacobo Arbenz, initiating 40 years of military-government death squads, torture, disappearances, mass executions and unimaginable cruelty, totaling more than 200,000 victims — indisputably one of the most inhumane chapters of the 20th century.

Nicaragua: When the Sandinistas overthrew the Somoza dictatorship in 1978, it was clear to Washington that they might well be that long-dreaded beast — “another Cuba.” Under President Carter, attempts to sabotage the revolution took diplomatic and economic forms. Under Reagan, violence was the method of choice. For eight terribly long years, the people of Nicaragua were under attack by Washington’s proxy army, the Contras, formed from Somoza’s vicious National Guard and other supporters of the dictator.

It was all-out war, aiming to destroy the progressive social and economic programs of the government, burning down schools and medical clinics, raping, torturing, mining harbors, bombing and strafing. These were Ronald Reagan’s “freedom fighters.” There would be no revolution in Nicaragua.

Albania: By infiltrating emigre guerrillas into the country, the US and Britain tried to overthrow the communist government and install a new one that would have been pro-Western, albeit composed largely of monarchists and (former) collaborators with Italian fascists and Nazis. Hundreds of the emigres lost their lives or were imprisoned.

Chile: In the bloody coup of September 11, 1973, Henry Kissinger and the CIA helped General Augusto Pinochet overthrow the democratically-elected leftist government of President Salvador Allende. The Fascist puppet-regime of Augusto Pinochet then embarked on a 17-year terror campaign against the people of Chile, which included mass arrests and executions, death squads, torture and disappearances. Many of the victims were fingered as “radicals” by lists provided by the CIA.

Italy: In 1947, the US forced the Italian government to dismiss its Communist and Socialist cabinet members in order to receive American economic aid. The following year and for decades thereafter, each time a combined front of the Communists and Socialists, or the Communists alone, threatened to defeat the US-supported Christian Democrats in national elections, the CIA used every (dirty) trick in the book and trained its big economic, political and psychological-warfare guns on the Italian people, while covertly funding the CD candidates. And it worked. Again and again. This perversion of democracy was done in the name of “saving democracy” in Italy.


Then again, you might know something about that one :)



There are many more such examples, Don... just ask.

[Don Amodeo]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 4:17 am on Jan. 16, 2003
There is a reason that the communist states have fallen, and now capitalism reigns the earth.

There is a reason, indeed, that communism has fallen and capitalism reigns supreme.

From the Chronology of Terror (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html):

Guatemala: A CIA-organized coup overthrew the democratically-elected and progressive government of Jacobo Arbenz, initiating 40 years of military-government death squads, torture, disappearances, mass executions and unimaginable cruelty, totaling more than 200,000 victims — indisputably one of the most inhumane chapters of the 20th century.

Nicaragua: When the Sandinistas overthrew the Somoza dictatorship in 1978, it was clear to Washington that they might well be that long-dreaded beast — “another Cuba.” Under President Carter, attempts to sabotage the revolution took diplomatic and economic forms. Under Reagan, violence was the method of choice. For eight terribly long years, the people of Nicaragua were under attack by Washington’s proxy army, the Contras, formed from Somoza’s vicious National Guard and other supporters of the dictator.

It was all-out war, aiming to destroy the progressive social and economic programs of the government, burning down schools and medical clinics, raping, torturing, mining harbors, bombing and strafing. These were Ronald Reagan’s “freedom fighters.” There would be no revolution in Nicaragua.

Albania: By infiltrating emigre guerrillas into the country, the US and Britain tried to overthrow the communist government and install a new one that would have been pro-Western, albeit composed largely of monarchists and (former) collaborators with Italian fascists and Nazis. Hundreds of the emigres lost their lives or were imprisoned.

Chile: In the bloody coup of September 11, 1973, Henry Kissinger and the CIA helped General Augusto Pinochet overthrow the democratically-elected leftist government of President Salvador Allende. The Fascist puppet-regime of Augusto Pinochet then embarked on a 17-year terror campaign against the people of Chile, which included mass arrests and executions, death squads, torture and disappearances. Many of the victims were fingered as “radicals” by lists provided by the CIA.

Italy: In 1947, the US forced the Italian government to dismiss its Communist and Socialist cabinet members in order to receive American economic aid. The following year and for decades thereafter, each time a combined front of the Communists and Socialists, or the Communists alone, threatened to defeat the US-supported Christian Democrats in national elections, the CIA used every (dirty) trick in the book and trained its big economic, political and psychological-warfare guns on the Italian people, while covertly funding the CD candidates. And it worked. Again and again. This perversion of democracy was done in the name of “saving democracy” in Italy.


Then again, you might know something about that one :)



There are many more such examples, Don... just ask.

Well, I have to say good work with the research. Especially the italian one. Not to many people know about that one, not even many young italians. But, on that note, I also must say that the latest reason the communists are not considered legitimate is because, after a massive corruption sweep, they all ran. And this is before the right wing Berlusconi came in. Also, 25-30 years ago, Italy was subjected not to CIA terrorism, but communist revolutionary extremism. Bombing campaigns took place on civilian trains, judges were killed walking in the street just because they worked with the government, and many people were killed for absolutely no reason besides the communists wanting to gain attention to their cause. They even took in the leader of the christian democrats, tortured him for one month, and after he had told all of his parties secrets, they killed him. And relating to other countries besides Italy, where communism was the only option, you cannot tell me that the US is even close to the Soviets. I am against most of the US foreign policy, especially during the Cold War, but comparing it with the Soviet Union is like comparing the Allied bombings over Germany's populated cities and Hitler's war crimes. Look at these statistics, and these are from before any US military involvement against the communist regimes. In case somebody doesn't get it, the countries are on the left, and the body counts are on the right.

Union of Sovie Socialist Republics (USSR) -20,000,000
Peoples Republic of China -65,000,000
Vietnam (North and South) -1,000,000
North Korea -2,000,000
Combodia -2,000,000
Eastern Europe -1,000,000
Latin America -150,000
Africa -1,700,000
Afghanistan -1,500,000
Cuba -15,000

TOTAL -92,365,000

Source: The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression
By, Stèphane Courtois

While I take these statistics from this one particular piece of information, the general consenus has been in the area of 85 to 100 million dead, a figure much greater than that of the Americans. And while that doesn't legitimize what the American govt. has done in all cases, lets remember that Che Guevara, the communist hero has made the same mistakes. I myself think that he was one hell of a man, but his ideas and methods were flawed. He believed in hating the enemy, which to me gives no chance for peace. And his method of going to other countries to liberate them is what got him killed. You have to realize that he his dead because of what equates to Cuban imperialism. Lets look at the facts. He went to Bolivia with a few elite guerillas, none of whom Bolivian, he fought against the army in any way possible, he did not try to establish any sort of communist party, the Bolivian people saw him as a terrorist, and when he was killed it was because a bolivian woman saw him and told the authorities. He was wrong to try and go start armed revolutions without the people. A revolution is something that must be used rarely, and by the huge majority of the country, not some elitist from other countries. This guerrilla movement Che started may not have been suitable for the whole world, and this is why he is dead.