A couple of observations

[A New Era]

After participating in the workers movement for some years now, I've noticed a few things that should be avoided but which people in the workers movement tend to resort to, and here are some suggestions.

The first is, don't try to make yourself smarter by using terminology ordinary people aren't familiar with. People often find alienated from typical leftist terminology, or laugh about it. Keep it simple.

The other is, don't try to "convert" people. You're not a salesman.

Don't quarrel about small things inside our movement. It seems logical we should focus on who wants to see the proletariat take over and rule society, and try to agree to disagree on other issues.

Also, know what you believe in and why you believe what you believe. There are so many lifestyle-communists and what-not, that seem to be hung up on T-shirts of Lenin, teddy bears of Marx and drinking Russian vodka or Cuban rum. Some people feel "connected" to the movement, but wouldn't that kind of energy and "devotion" instead be used by getting a basic understanding of marxism?

My two cents..

Any others?

[KC]

You might be interested in these articles:

Hal Draper - Toward a New Beginning – On Another Road: The Alternative to the Micro-Sect (http://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1971/alt/index.htm)
Hal Draper - Anatomy of the Micro-Sect (http://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1973/xx/microsect.htm)

Also, check out his other works (http://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/index.htm).

[comrade stalin guevara]

After participating in the workers movement for some years now, I've noticed a few things that should be avoided but which people in the workers movement tend to resort to, and here are some suggestions.

The first is, don't try to make yourself smarter by using terminology ordinary people aren't familiar with. People often find alienated from typical leftist terminology, or laugh about it. Keep it simple.

The other is, don't try to "convert" people. You're not a salesman.

Don't quarrel about small things inside our movement. It seems logical we should focus on who wants to see the proletariat take over and rule society, and try to agree to disagree on other issues.

Also, know what you believe in and why you believe what you believe. There are so many lifestyle-communists and what-not, that seem to be hung up on T-shirts of Lenin, teddy bears of Marx and drinking Russian vodka or Cuban rum. Some people feel "connected" to the movement, but wouldn't that kind of energy and "devotion" instead be used by getting a basic understanding of marxism?

My two cents..

Any others?

pravda comrade im sick of fighting over whos better out of stalin and trotsky,etc
some of the comrades here seem to enjoy dissin the young un educated comrades yea thanks comrades now half those comrades are on rev/right

[Jesus Christ!]

I think one of the main problems is that most leftist thinkers are just that, thinkers. They are separated from the actual working class and appear like a fish out of water when they try to relate to working class people. Also a big problem with the revolutionizing of the working class in America is that the vast majority of said working class are religious. If you start yelling about queer liberation and women's right to choose with your ideas it will immediately turn off a large portion of the working class. Europe is home to a much more leftist working class whereas the working class in America is sadly the Moral Majority.

[danyboy27]

After participating in the workers movement for some years now, I've noticed a few things that should be avoided but which people in the workers movement tend to resort to, and here are some suggestions.

The first is, don't try to make yourself smarter by using terminology ordinary people aren't familiar with. People often find alienated from typical leftist terminology, or laugh about it. Keep it simple.

The other is, don't try to "convert" people. You're not a salesman.

Don't quarrel about small things inside our movement. It seems logical we should focus on who wants to see the proletariat take over and rule society, and try to agree to disagree on other issues.

Also, know what you believe in and why you believe what you believe. There are so many lifestyle-communists and what-not, that seem to be hung up on T-shirts of Lenin, teddy bears of Marx and drinking Russian vodka or Cuban rum. Some people feel "connected" to the movement, but wouldn't that kind of energy and "devotion" instead be used by getting a basic understanding of marxism?

My two cents..

Any others?

wow, i couldnt agree more!
personally, i think we are showing communism more complicated than it is for real. I also think that a lot of people failed to adapt to the new world,mass media, changing governement etc. Yet many of us still us the same tool used in 1920.

[dirtycommiebastard]

It is true that there is a lot of petty arguing amongst the left, though, ideological questions, or historical ones are NOT a waste of time. What is a waste of time I find is the ongoing argument between Trotskyists and Anti-Revisionists about Stalin/Trotsky.

This is going to lead nowhere, as both take positions that fundementally start at different points. Its like arguing against the existence of God with a Christian, for lack of a better example. Both parties start from different worldviews, so it is impossible to proceed.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with Lenin t-shirts! I wear hammer and sickle shirts and wear Marx and Engels pins. It doesn't require any extra energy or devotion, it just is what it is.

[BobKKKindle$]

Also a big problem with the revolutionizing of the working class in America is that the vast majority of said working class are religious. If you start yelling about queer liberation and women's right to choose with your ideas it will immediately turn off a large portion of the working class.Although many proletarians are influenced by reactionary ideas, often because they are raised in a religious environment (and so have been taught that homosexuality is wrong, and women should not be able to exercise control over their fertility etc.) revolutionary socialists should not try and appeal to these ideas by avoiding criticism of social oppression - rather, the proletarian vanguard (the most class conscious section of the working class, organised according to the principles of democratic centralism) should "patiently explain" (Lenin, April Theses) why these ideas are wrong and argue for the unity of the working class in the global struggle against capitalism. To do otherwise is inherently opportunistic - the objective of the vanguard is not to gain as many votes as possible by adapting ideology to the dominant prejudices of the working masses, but to enable the development of class consciousness through agitation and intervening in proletarian struggles, which is a prerequisite for socialist revolution.

[cyu]

The other is, don't try to "convert" people. You're not a salesman.

Can you clarify what this means? I thought politics was all about "converting" people - maybe I'm just misinterpreting the term.

...I guess one non-converting, but still political act is to agree with them on their goals, but just show them another (possibly better) way to get there. Is that what you mean?

[Psy]

Although many proletarians are influenced by reactionary ideas, often because they are raised in a religious environment (and so have been taught that homosexuality is wrong, and women should not be able to exercise control over their fertility etc.) revolutionary socialists should not try and appeal to these ideas by avoiding criticism of social oppression - rather, the proletarian vanguard (the most class conscious section of the working class, organised according to the principles of democratic centralism) should "patiently explain" (Lenin, April Theses) why these ideas are wrong and argue for the unity of the working class in the global struggle against capitalism. To do otherwise is inherently opportunistic - the objective of the vanguard is not to gain as many votes as possible by adapting ideology to the dominant prejudices of the working masses, but to enable the development of class consciousness through agitation and intervening in proletarian struggles, which is a prerequisite for socialist revolution.

Right on, we can't stand by and let workers propagate ignorance, it has to be confronted. How can we expect female workers to be in solidarity with male workers if we allow male workers to spew sexist crap? Or how can we expect minorities to join if we allow white workers to spew racist crap?

[A New Era]

Can you clarify what this means? I thought politics was all about "converting" people - maybe I'm just misinterpreting the term.I can try..

We are fighting for something good and a lot of us would like to change things for the better. So we are eager to convince people that capitalism is wrong and that we need an alternative where the people take over society, including the means of production. But when we become too eager, we sound like desperate salesmen.

The best example I can think of is Jehovah's Witnesses. No one wants to get anywhere near them (thank God) and they are a plague. Their dedication is pretty much useless, and is working against them. What they are doing is that they are desperately trying to convince people what they believe is right.

We shouldn't try to make everything political when we are with friends, and if we are in a discussion we should do our best to present facts and opinions that makes sense. If people wants to join us, that's good, but if what we say makes sense, people will be convinced anyways. People don't need someone trying to convincing them.

I think we should in general make our opinions clear, but not try to push people, and if people are curious, we talk with them about the workers movement or whatever they have on their mind. Letting them come to us, instead of putting our face in theirs with a political agenda.

I'm not very good at explaining things accurately with few words, but I guess this could be summed up as "being convincing, but without trying to convince people".

[BIG BROTHER]

well those observations make sense. Although I don see anything wrong with wearing commie shirts:blushing::lol:

Anyways, I would rather say that discussion is good as long as its done in the proper time with the proper people. I mean i get your point if you are working with some lets say employees who are trying to from an union one shouldn't bring stuff like whether Trotsky was right and Staling wasn't or whether Cuba is socialist or state capitalist and stuff like that.

And of course Lenin's advice is always useful patiently explain to the masses. I mean sooner or later they have to learn.