Subconciously Racist

[ipollux]

A professor of mine once said that everyone was subconciously racist to a certain extent. I tend to disagree with him because I know people who are racist against their own race more than any other race, and it's hard to fathom that being subconcious.

Thoughts?

[Yehuda Stern]

Capitalism is inherently racist. The capitalists need racism to help sow divisions within the working class. But in our days, after the holocaust and the civil rights movement and so on, racism is very impolitic. So while most people won't be out and out racists, many people have a racist subconsciousness. But I don't think your professor is a 100% correct - revolutionaries are people who have broken with bourgeois ideology, and therefore with racism as well.

[communard resolution]

revolutionaries are people who have broken with bourgeois ideology, and therefore with racism as well.

You're talking about consciousness while he's talking about subconciousness.

[Sir Comradical]

When the topic of racism is brought up in a conversation, it doesn't take long before someone says "it's human nature" which always struck me because it seems unnatural for a species to divide itself based on facial features, language and percieved cultural differences. The real question is, who within society gains the most from promoting racism? Well the ruling class does, "they're coming here to take your job", "we're introducing these anti-terror laws because those people are a threat to you", "they're mooch off this country's welfare"...etc. the list goes on. These are nothing more than excuses used by the ruling elite to destroy our standard of living by dividing us with the idea of race.

[Lost In Translation]

A professor of mine once said that everyone was subconciously racist to a certain extent. I tend to disagree with him because I know people who are racist against their own race more than any other race, and it's hard to fathom that being subconcious.

Thoughts?

I tend to agree with your professor to some extent. When you are brought up by parents who are fine with calling people of African descent the N-word, you are only receiving information from one point of view, without knowing the other side of the story. If your society is racist, you have no idea if what you're doing is racist or not because there is no comparison to draw towards. In this sense, you're subconciously racist because of the fact that you lack knowledge from all sides, because society and your parents are racist, thereby "brainwashing" you into thinking what you're doing is nothing unusual, while a spectator from another society might think you're a white supremacist or something of the sort.

[dirtycommiebastard]

I agree with most of what Yehuda Stern replied with.

But again, being socialized in a inherently racist system is going to affect you, whether or not you choose to act in a racist fashion.

I think subconsciously I have racism in me, yet I consciously understand the nature and origins of this racism and actively choose to not act on it.

[Yehuda Stern]

You're talking about consciousness while he's talking about subconciousness.

No, read that again - I was saying that the only people who can break completely with bourgeois ideology and not be racist on any level are revolutionists.


But again, being socialized in a inherently racist system is going to affect you, whether or not you choose to act in a racist fashion.

We all face class pressures, especially from the ruling class, but I don't believe that as a revolutionist I have any racism in me. The question is how far you've broken with the ruling class not only over economic policy but on question such as, say, the third world.

[ifeelyou]

No, read that again - I was saying that the only people who can break completely with bourgeois ideology and not be racist on any level are revolutionists.



We all face class pressures, especially from the ruling class, but I don't believe that as a revolutionist I have any racism in me. The question is how far you've broken with the ruling class not only over economic policy but on question such as, say, the third world.

with all due respect, do u genuinely believe that just because u call urself a "revolutionist," despite the fact that each and every single one of us is raised in and conditioned by an extremely racist culture, that uve managed to completely free urself of any and all racial preconceptions?

if so, id love to hear how uve managed to do this.

[ipollux]

I agree that if you're raised by racist parents and that is the only or dominant point-of-view in your life, you will more than likely be subconciously racist, if not conciously.

However, my professor suggested that everyone subconciously has a prejudice against anyone that doesn't look them and gravitates toward those that do look like them, rather than acting the same towards everyone.

[Yehuda Stern]

do u genuinely believe that just because u call urself a "revolutionist," despite the fact that each and every single one of us is raised in and conditioned by an extremely racist culture, that uve managed to completely free urself of any and all racial preconceptions?

Not because I "call myself" a revolutionist, but because I am one. There's a big, big difference. And yes, I truly believe this. Just like all non-revolutionary forces on the left inevitably drift towards nationalism and reformism, but revolutionaries themselves are free of these ideologies, revolutionists are the only people that can truly be completely free of all racist conceptions (other than some rare exceptions).

[TC]

Capitalism is inherently racist. The capitalists need racism to help sow divisions within the working class.


I disagree; it does not follow from the fact that the bourgeoises sometimes uses racism as one among many tools to maintain social order, that it must do so or that capitalism is inherently racist.

There is really nothing at all inherently racist about capitalism, racism might help capitalism in some but not all circumstances but capitalists are also sometimes motivated to reduce racism and there are plenty of capitalist societies that aren't especially if at all racist.

Racism is just one strategy for the preservation of class divided society, there are many other strategies and which ones the bourgeois choose to use depend on local conditions.

[Lost In Translation]

I agree that if you're raised by racist parents and that is the only or dominant point-of-view in your life, you will more than likely be subconciously racist, if not conciously.

However, my professor suggested that everyone subconciously has a prejudice against anyone that doesn't look them and gravitates toward those that do look like them, rather than acting the same towards everyone.
Well, I think he has a very good point. It may not be a prejudice so much as a hesitation. If you are raised in a Asian society, then you move to a Caucasian society. Having never met anybody other than Asians, would you not be slightly apprehensive upon meeting a total stranger? It's a reaction rather than a detailed examination of the other person before making a decisive action.

[ifeelyou]

Not because I "call myself" a revolutionist, but because I am one. There's a big, big difference. And yes, I truly believe this. Just like all non-revolutionary forces on the left inevitably drift towards nationalism and reformism, but revolutionaries themselves are free of these ideologies, revolutionists are the only people that can truly be completely free of all racist conceptions (other than some rare exceptions).

u still have not explained how uve reached this state of freedom from all preconceived racial ideas.

[Decolonize The Left]

However, my professor suggested that everyone subconciously has a prejudice against anyone that doesn't look them and gravitates toward those that do look like them, rather than acting the same towards everyone.

If this is the case, then your professor was not speaking about "racism." A definition is perhaps in order (courtesy, as always, of dictionary.com):
"Racism (n): a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."

It is clear that having prejudices against those who do not share your physical characteristics is not racism. In fact, I would not want to live in a society where everyone was treated exactly the same - this would perhaps be the most horrible world I can conceive of. I do not treat my mother and a neo-Nazi in the same fashion for very, very, good reasons.

- August

[Yes]

Everyone has racial prejudices (not sure racism is the right word) subconsciously because from an early age you are exposed to "light" racism that embeds a certain stereotype of people in your head.

Let's take television, for example. Usually the whites on TV are the leading roles (especially on kid shows). There are one or two token blacks who may be one of the leading roles, but even as that, he is shown as a rugged, tough, somber bad boy-esque archetype that is very common on TV. Asians are more blatantly portrayed as comical stereotypes: usually either 1) a Dry Cleaner, 2) a Bodega Owner, 3) a Restaurant Owner, or 4) a Nerd.

Now, it may not be that serious, but they did a study on children with pictures of people with different ethnicities. The kids said the White was nice, the Black was angry, and the Arab was angry too. Take it with a grain of salt, because there may be no merit to it, but I think years of small racial divide create prejudices as such.

[communard resolution]

Not because I "call myself" a revolutionist, but because I am one. There's a big, big difference. And yes, I truly believe this. Just like all non-revolutionary forces on the left inevitably drift towards nationalism and reformism, but revolutionaries themselves are free of these ideologies, revolutionists are the only people that can truly be completely free of all racist conceptions (other than some rare exceptions).

Don't you think it's very hard for you to tell what's going on in your subconscious? To be honest, when people make statements like this, it makes me distrust them, almost to the point of thinking of them as hypocritical. As ifeelyou pointed out, we've all grown up in a racist culture. I don't think we're immune to subconscious racial prejudice only because we hold anti-racist or leftist ideals on a conscious level. To proclaim yourself as 100% pure and politically correct is to put yourself on a pedestal that I think is unobtainable for mere mortals at this point in history.

I'm sure some of you will have heard of this test which claims to assess your subconscious preferences and prejudices:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/selectatest.html

I have no idea to what extent this test is reliable. Anyway, my results - as far as I remember them - were as follows:

little to no preference of straight over gay or vice versa
little to no preference of male over female or vice versa
little to no preference of Christianity over other religions
strong preference of Judaism over other religions
slight preference of other religions over Islam
moderate to strong preference of white people over black people

Some of these results (I'm sure you know which ones I mean) were a bit shocking for me to learn, esp since on a conscious level I believe myself to be strongly anti-racist and strongly opposed to discrimination along religious lines. I've never felt any conscious aversion towards black people. I've even got some black mates. Still, assuming the test tells the truth about my subconscious, I suppose I've got a problem.

Now what are we going to do about it, Yehuda? Shall we suggest I get banned from this forum because I'm a racist rather than a revolutionary?

[superiority]

Word to TragicClown. Saying capitalism is inherently racist is dangerous, because as racism becomes more unpopular (and hence more unprofitable), it will become less useful to the ruling class and will be abandoned by them. When the last vestiges of racist society are finally eliminated, you can't let yourself be fooled into thinking that the world is now "just".

I am skeptical of claims that everyone has unconscious racial prejudices inherently, but don't doubt that people are taught them. The idea is to notice your prejudice and work to overcome it. Just the other day while I was doing the dishes, I heard a news show in the background begin with mention of "a marine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USMC)", and the image that instantly popped into my head was of a male, until the newsreader started using feminine pronouns. Assuming maleness "the default" is, I imagine, an especially common problem in Western patriarchal society.

[jake williams]

As has been pointed out, we all live in racist societies and have all been bombarded with racist beliefs and presuppositions. They're there, and we should always try to fight them, and recognize that they're irrational and they're not our fault and it's not because we're weak and immoral, but they're there and we should always try to fight them. Conscious action can minimalize it, and certainly can minimalize its effects. Whether or not it can be completely eliminated, I have my doubts but no certainty. I would err on the side of caution though, just as matter of practical sense.

As regards the connection to capitalism, TC makes a good point, we shouldn't regard capitalism as inherently racist just because bourgeois political meandering exploits racism to divide the working class. It happens, and it's part of a complex picture. What I think might be more significant in making one (of many) connection(s) between racism and capitalism is in the latter's relationship to imperialism, and bourgeois nationalism.

Also, there's the fact that capitalism in simple terms causes the currently wealthy to continually gain more wealth, in general at the expense of the currently poor. As the current (and hence exacerbated in the future) distribution of wealth fits along national and race lines, the system which indeed makes this worse is de facto racist, but I don't know how ideologically motivated that is.

In fact, just to mention my own superficial guess, there seems to be a tendency in sort of a global capitalist elite towards a sort of liberal internationalism that welcomes indigenous elites with open arms, shedding race lines in favour of strengthening class lines. I think you see it with the Saudis, with some Africans, with the Indians certainly (eg. Bhagwati) and indeed for a long time, and in awhile you might even begin to see it with the Chinese, though with them it's always hard to say.

[Sendo]

If you want an example of subconscious "I'm not racist" racism:

At the Korean school a few days ago:
"So class, what is this? It makes music" I make some bassy sounds and charade a volume button on a stereo. (I'm teaching the kids some basic vocab. BTW Koreans have school until July 19th.)

"Oh loud like nigger!"
I get mad and tell the class to never make comments about people's skin color.
"Oh, sorry, loud like black man! HAHAHA"
I say every person is a person, I say that I don't say stuff about all Koreans or say All Koreans ...

Later that day with a different class.
"Hmm, how about you, young man, can you come up to the front of the class" (I'm teaching Pictionary)
Kid's friend "Teacher you pick the nigger! See he look like nigger, so dark, ugly! HAHAHA! Oh I'm sorry, I mean he look like black man, HAHHAHAHA so dark HAHAH"
I say I have black friends and there is nothing wrong with dark skin, I wish I was darker like my Mediterranean father, for example. (bad luck rolling the gene pool dice on that one)

My Korean co-teacher says after class:
"Oh, they don't know that nigger is a racist word."
I bite my tongue on this one. Does he think I'm a moron?
I have to spend five minutes explaining why it's wrong to make fun of someone or stereotype someone based on skin color, that the word is just a word, it's what you MEAN that's important. I don't think he understood very well.

There's also a kid's game called "slave". All at the high school level. I wish I was just making this up.

But this is how many Americans are as well. They just tend to hide it differently. "Most African-Americans are sensitive to generalizations." Yes, you read that correctly. I heard someone say that. "African-Americans tend to ......." etc. Koreans are just more blatant about it because a good deal of them are only capable of saying racist terms like outlander (in Korean) and nigger. And it's possible to get away with it because in a town of 60,000 there are only 5 whites (including me). And all 5 are temporary residents. No blacks, needless to say. There are some Filipinos but you can tell that they look at me the way other expats might. Without a word their face says it all: "I will acknowledge your presence as a human being. We're kind of in the same boat, you and I, because we are always reminded of how different we are. I look at you more comfortably at you (a white American) than I do a Korean"

[Yehuda Stern]

TragicClown: Racism is a tactic, but I would not dismiss it as "just a tactic." Racism isn't just a temporary policy of the ruling class, to be dropped off when it becomes unpopular: racism - in our time, especially against Arabs and Muslims, but in most countries also against black people - is inherent in the imperialists' need to justify both their oppressive policies towards minorities as well as the exploitation and oppression of the third world. The ruling class cannot "drop off" racism any more than it can "drop off" imperialism.


u still have not explained how uve reached this state of freedom from all preconceived racial ideas.

I think I have. Part of becoming a revolutionist is struggling against bourgeois ideology, in your own head as well. In Israel this means, first and foremost, rejecting Zionism and its racist conception of Arabs and Muslims.



Now what are we going to do about it, Yehuda? Shall we suggest I get banned from this forum because I'm a racist rather than a revolutionary?

I'd suggest that we should leave the testing of our attitude towards questions of race and nationality to political practice rather than internet tests. I, for example, believe that in our politics, we in the ISL prove that we are free of the racist prejudice fed to Israelis by the Zionist state.

[communard resolution]

I'd suggest that we should leave the testing of our attitude towards questions of race and nationality to political practice rather than internet tests. I, for example, believe that in our politics, we in the ISL prove that we are free of the racist prejudice fed to Israelis by the Zionist state.And I believe you are pretending not to understand what we mean. Do you think that we do not rationally reject racism?

[ifeelyou]

I think I have. Part of becoming a revolutionist is struggling against bourgeois ideology, in your own head as well. In Israel this means, first and foremost, rejecting Zionism and its racist conception of Arabs and Muslims.

first, someone doesn't have to be a "revolutionist" (however you in particular define it) in order to work against internal racism or preconceptions of race. second, im happy ur now using the word "struggling." i would hope many of us wrestle with or own individual preconceived ideas of others with the hope of becoming better people, but for any of us to assert that weve reached a perfect state of being colorblind is ludicrous. it seems to me that grappling with our personal biases will probably always be a work in progress. understanding this and still rigorously performing this kind of ascetic labor on ourselves is revolutionary. one of my favorite writers once referred to it as a "revolution of the self."

[Yehuda Stern]

And I believe you are pretending not to understand what we mean. Do you think that we do not rationally reject racism?

I understand very well what you mean, so I am not "pretending" in any way. I am merely saying that your 'evidence' against what I said is somewhat bogus.

To ifeelyou: I think that at bottom, your formulations suggest that you buy the bourgeois myth that racism is part of human nature and that therefore it exists even in the minds of revolutionists. While it's true that it takes quite a struggle to become a revolutionist and to rid yourself of racist conceptions, I do not think it's impossible.

I agree with you that many people, even non-revolutionists, can attempt to become free of these conceptions. From what I've seen, though, it's very hard for them to succeed.

[jake williams]

I guess the question sort of comes up about "colour-blindedness", ie. ignoring the existence of at least perceived racial differences, never making tentative assumptions about a person because of their skin colour or whatever, that sort of thing. I think in a racist society where race very definitely acts as a real social force, it shouldn't be ignored. One might want a colour blind society, but that doesn't mean it's practical, or even moral, to act that way personal now. I just don't think it's the best strategy for dealing with the reality of it.

[ifeelyou]

To ifeelyou: I think that at bottom, your formulations suggest that you buy the bourgeois myth that racism is part of human nature and that therefore it exists even in the minds of revolutionists. While it's true that it takes quite a struggle to become a revolutionist and to rid yourself of racist conceptions, I do not think it's impossible.

my mistrust of the idea that we can overcome all of our racial biases has nothing to do with human nature. if u reread my first post and read below ull know that im talking about socio-cultural construction.

ur assumption that u can rid urself of any and all racial prejudices presupposes that u can locate all of them. if this is without doubt extremely difficult to do just on a conscious level, as was basically asked by nero, how in the world would u manage such a thing in terms of the sub- and un-conscious?

it seems possible that ur definition of racism may be too narrow and that ur not accounting for the fact that we are bombarded on a daily basis by things like questionable representations of race from multiple directions (e.g., television, radio, billboards, etc.) and are affected by numerous racialized social interactions (e.g., seemingly innocent racial jokes, racial tension between different people, etc.). Since such experiences are constant and leave us with inscriptions, i feel confident stating that we must continuously and as rigorously as possible resist them if we are in pursuit of a better way of being. as such, and because i believe identifying everything in our sub- and un-conscious is unlikely, im suspicious of the idea that we can ever truly, once and for all, "overcome" preconceived notions of race.


I agree with you that many people, even non-revolutionists, can attempt to become free of these conceptions. From what I've seen, though, it's very hard for them to succeed.

what r the necessary steps for a "revolutionist" to take in order to become free?

[communard resolution]

I understand very well what you mean, so I am not "pretending" in any way. I am merely saying that your 'evidence' against what I said is somewhat bogus. I wouldn't dismiss that test so easily. What it does is fairly straightforward and IMO makes perfect sense. Of course it isn't bulletproof 'evidence' for anything, and I didn't mean to present it as such. When it comes to matters of the subconscious, I imagine it's fairly difficult to present real 'evidence': I wouldn't ask you to provide evidence to the contrary as you wouldn't be capable of doing that either.


To ifeelyou: I think that at bottom, your formulations suggest that you buy the bourgeois myth that racism is part of human nature and that therefore it exists even in the minds of revolutionists.Without wanting to speak on her behalf, I don't think anyone claimed racism is part of human nature. We suggested we've all been conditioned by a racist culture, traces of which may remain in our subconscious no matter how strongly we consciously reject racist ideology.

I too would like to know what steps are to be taken in order to achieve your (and your group's) elevated state of perfectly non-racist subconsiousness. This is of particular interest to me since I seem to be such an imperfect human being myself when it comes to racism (see test results).

[Yehuda Stern]

I think in a racist society where race very definitely acts as a real social force, it shouldn't be ignored. One might want a colour blind society, but that doesn't mean it's practical, or even moral, to act that way personal now.

I agree with you on this. That's why I would never claim that there is any symmetry between Arab anti-Semitism and Zionist racism, or between Arab terrorism and Israeli state terrorism. We must always take into account the status of the oppressed and not act as if we don't see or understand the racial divides in society.


my mistrust of the idea that we can overcome all of our racial biases has nothing to do with human nature.

I know that that's not the explicit basis for what you say, but I feel that what's implicit in your words is that human beings cannot truly overcome racism. Either way, saying that we can't overcome racism because we're constantly bombarded with propaganda is similar to saying that workers cannot become revolutionaries because they are bombarded with capitalist propaganda. Is the first type of propaganda really more prevalent than the second?


what r the necessary steps for a "revolutionist" to take in order to become free?

I never claimed that there's a recipe. We all have to struggle against the conceptions that we have been brought up on. Oh, and you can stop with the condescending quotes around the word revolutionist, it's a real word in the English language, I assure you.

[ifeelyou]

I know that that's not the explicit basis for what you say, but I feel that what's implicit in your words is that human beings cannot truly overcome racism. Either way, saying that we can't overcome racism because we're constantly bombarded with propaganda is similar to saying that workers cannot become revolutionaries because they are bombarded with capitalist propaganda. Is the first type of propaganda really more prevalent than the second?

reread my prior post if u think im talking about human nature, even implicitly. in addition, workers have nothing to do with what im saying. ur missing my point.


I never claimed that there's a recipe. We all have to struggle against the conceptions that we have been brought up on. Oh, and you can stop with the condescending quotes around the word revolutionist, it's a real word in the English language, I assure you.

ur the one that has basically stated only "revolutionists" can be free of all preconceived ideas of race. i figure if thats true ull have an outline for how one achieves that.

im not trying to be condescending. im just quoting ur term: "revolutionist."

[Comrade Vasilev]

I would say that most of the subtle and 'subconscious' racism comes from silly liberal kiddies who while trying to treat all cultures equally end up completely patronizing and isolating people they meet and interact based on race.

Sure, if your not racist, prove it, actually treat all people of different races equally instead of acting like there is an 'elephant in the room'.

[Yehuda Stern]

workers have nothing to do with what im saying. ur missing my point.

Well, I was taking that as just an example, but I would never say that workers have nothing to do with what we're talking about.


ur the one that has basically stated only "revolutionists" can be free of all preconceived ideas of race. i figure if thats true ull have an outline for how one achieves that.

If you call "becoming a revolutionist" an "outline," then yeah, that's it. Am I supposed to give you a reading list and a glossary of terms too?

[ifeelyou]

Well, I was taking that as just an example, but I would never say that workers have nothing to do with what we're talking about.



If you call "becoming a revolutionist" an "outline," then yeah, that's it. Am I supposed to give you a reading list and a glossary of terms too?

ugh