Directed at AK47 - and anyone else who wants to exaggerate t

[Mazdak]

Hitler killed aproximatly 6.6 million jews. Stalin killed aproximatly 20 million slavs.

The USSR did play a big role in WW2 and had the highest casualty rate but you cant say it had the biggest. If the USA had not interviened we may have lost. If D day had not been launched then we would have lost. If El Almain had not been won then the war would have been lost. If it had not been a two frount war we would have lost. It was team work no country did more for victory than any other. They are Equil.


Ok. I want to settle this right here. Please provide me with a source that proves 20 million deaths. I am tired of seeing these gross overestimated.

And also... wahts with claiming hitler only killed around 6 million people? What is with everyone and fogetting 8 million non jews. The holocaust wasnt a jewish tragedy. It was a European Tragedy. It is reverse anti semitism to act as though 8 million people did not exist while 6 million jews did.

[anti machine]

Good correction Mazdak. I'm glad you're back.

However, I still don't see the justification for putting your entire faith in such a devout war criminal as Stalin. It is undebatable that Stalin killed more than Hitler. If there were that many "enemies of the people", then somebody wasn't doing their job right. Had Stalin truly followed Marxist/Leninist doctrine, such an uprising of supposed counter-revolutionaries would not have existed. Even Castro didn't have such a vast percentage of enemies of the state as Stalin did. I would also like to hear you defend your critisisms of Trotsky and why he is to considered a counter-revolutionary to Marxism.

[pastradamus]

yes,mazdaks correction accurate.Most people tink it was only jews he killed,they were actually well down the line,the concentration camps were set up for communists,then handicaps,twins,gypsies and then jews.dont take this the wrong way im not trying to justify the jewish holocaust but it's a sin to forget the other ethnic peoples,ect..
Its actually known that hitler killed a larger percentage of europes gypsies than he did jew's.

NEVER AGAIN.

[Michael De Panama]

The estimate given is somewhere between 5 to 30 million people who Stalin killed. They're still digging up the bodies. Either way, a mass murder is a mass murder. If you don't have a problem with five million being killed, why should you have a problem with twenty million being killed?

(Edited by Michael De Panama at 12:07 am on Jan. 8, 2003)

[synthesis]

Exactly. That's why I don't give a shit about Holocaust deniers: 300,000 Jews, or 6,000,000 Jews, it was still a fuckin' tragedy, no matter the numbers.

[Socialist Pig]

Well, as Stalin said "One death is a tradegy, one million deaths is a statistic."

I don't care how much Stalin increased the productivity Russia. It doesn't justify him killing all those people. Although I doubt he killed 20 million people through direct orders, the repercussions of his poorly instituted collectivism resulted in the deaths of millions of people through famine.

[Nateddi]

Hmm.

What does this have to do with socialism or captialism?

Oh wait, some retarded admin(s) locked him into this forum.

Great comrades, great. You just love to pollute this forum with off-topic threads don't you? Are you too pansy to take him on in other forums? Is Mazdak too mighty and powerful that he cannot be debated in a more proper place?

[Moskitto]

After trudging through the internet I found this for my 4th favourite website.

Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53)
There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.
Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
1939-45: 18,157,000
1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
Cited by Wallechinsky:
Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.
And from the Lower Numbers school:
Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
Cited in Nove:
Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.
Although it's too early to be taking sides with absolute certainty, a consensus seems to be forming around a death toll of 20 million. This would adequately account for all documented nastiness without straining credulity:
In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50% higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in 1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.
Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.
Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M excuted during and after WW2.
Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M
Daniel Chirot:
"Lowest credible" estimate: 20M
"Highest": 40M
Citing:
Conquest: 20M
Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M
Medvedev: 40M
Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism: 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91.
Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M
Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.
AVERAGE: Of the 14 estimates of the total number of victims of Stalin, the median is 30 million.
Famine, 1926-38
Green, Barbara ("Stalinist Terror and the Question of Genocide: the Great Famine" in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?) cites these sources for the number who died in the famine:
Nove: 3.1-3.2M in Ukraine, 1933
Maksudov: 4.4M in Ukraine, 1927-38
Mace: 5-7M in Ukraine
Osokin: 3.35M in USSR, 1933
Wheatcraft: 4-5M in USSR, 1932-33
Conquest:
Total, USSR, 1926-37: 11M
1932-33: 7M
Ukraine: 5M

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin

And killing twins? No society wishing to purify the gene pool such as Nazi Germany kills twins, in medieval societies farmers marked which animals were twins in the belief that they would themselves produce twins, Hitler wanted large families, so killing twins would be against this idea, right...

[Anonymous]

This denial is just proving how fascists stalinists are....
deniing stalins purges (more holocausts) is like denying the great jew holocaust, and this is typical fascist BS...

[ComradeJunichi]

I don't think anyone is necessarily denying the purges, but the 'statistic' that 20 million were killed. I think 20 million Russians died during World War II.

Jews weren't the only people who died in the Holocaust, it is The Holocaust.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from Nateddi on 5:21 am on Jan. 8, 2003
Hmm.

What does this have to do with socialism or captialism?

Oh wait, some retarded admin(s) locked him into this forum.

Great comrades, great. You just love to pollute this forum with off-topic threads don't you? Are you too pansy to take him on in other forums? Is Mazdak too mighty and powerful that he cannot be debated in a more proper place?


Malte proposed changing the name of this forum to "Clashing Ideologies" or something...

(Edited by RedCeltic at 3:57 pm on Jan. 8, 2003)

[Mazdak]

clashing ideologies. Nice cover.

Ok. First we should get something clear. Please look at the outrageous sources that showed 50-60 million deaths. Its ridiculous, considering only about 30,000 have thus far been found.


Estimates as high as 20 million are terribly inaccurate. In fact, i find it a wonder so many survived the tough times that the people had to go through up to and including World War II.

Another point i would like to make is this constant trying to make stalin look evil because of one quote. "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." Come on now, this is just sheer desparation.

I will once again rely on the Trusty red comrades homepage as a source, as they have been so reliable.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embas.../7213/lies.html (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/7213/lies.html)

take a look at that and read some of the articles there then tell me again how many stalin killed.

Oh yes, and another thing is, why do you seem to care so much? It isnt the numbers of death, but why they die. I dont know, but i dont find thinking this way insane. you tell me.

[Beccie]

Mazdak:

You follow Stalin yet you recognise the evil-doings of Hitler?

Stalin is no matter better then hitler. They both killed people because of what they believed in. Killing CANNOT be justified.

(Edited by Commie01 at 3:14 am on Jan. 9, 2003)

[Thine Stalin]

Yes it can hippie.

Let me slowly torture your family to death and rape the females of it in front of you and then squeeze lemon juice in your eyes and then we'll see whether killing is justified for you then.

But really, stalin's killings were entirely justified, as the majority purged were political dissidents, which were hated minorities and also terrorists many times. Why should the state have to pay to keep people alive who would rather have it crumble? Why should the masses pay for it?

[Beccie]

Maybe killing is justified when fucking Nazis like yourself are the ones being shot!

But even then I would not agree with it.

[synthesis]

Why should the state have to pay to keep people alive who would rather have it crumble? Why should the masses pay for it?

So you would be fully in support of your government coming to your house and shooting you in the face?

[Socialist Pig]

Quote: from Thine Stalin on 3:35 am on Jan. 9, 2003
Yes it can hippie.

Let me slowly torture your family to death and rape the females of it in front of you and then squeeze lemon juice in your eyes and then we'll see whether killing is justified for you then.

But really, stalin's killings were entirely justified, as the majority purged were political dissidents, which were hated minorities and also terrorists many times. Why should the state have to pay to keep people alive who would rather have it crumble? Why should the masses pay for it?


Criticism of government is an important part of any society. Critical thinking helps the governments improve the lifes of its cititzens.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from DyerMaker on 5:29 am on Jan. 9, 2003
Why should the state have to pay to keep people alive who would rather have it crumble? Why should the masses pay for it?

So you would be fully in support of your government coming to your house and shooting you in the face?


The government wouldn't have to because we would work and do what was required of us. The government doesnt break into the houses of innocent civilians for the sheer purpose of shooting them without reason.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Mazdak on 3:36 am on Jan. 8, 2003

Hitler killed aproximatly 6.6 million jews. Stalin killed aproximatly 20 million slavs.



Ok. I want to settle this right here. Please provide me with a source that proves 20 million deaths. I am tired of seeing these gross overestimated.

And also... wahts with claiming hitler only killed around 6 million people? What is with everyone and fogetting 8 million non jews. The holocaust wasnt a jewish tragedy. It was a European Tragedy. It is reverse anti semitism to act as though 8 million people did not exist while 6 million jews did.



"Ok. I want to settle this right here. Please provide me with a source that proves 20 million deaths. I am tired of seeing these gross overestimated. "

Mosskito solves the first problem you faced us with.

You may have noticed i only used Jews for Hitler, and only Slavs for stalin i was atempting to be fair. Showing the highest number of a single race killed by both men.
But if you want accuracy then:-
6.6 million Jews
3.4 million Gypsys
1/2 a million Negros
1/2 a million Slavs
1 million handicaped
1/4 political enemies/criminals/undisirables (meaning those who who lived on the street)

This better.

I would show stalins murders bur it would take to long. Lets just say he slaughterd most of his army of about 40 million men. Plus all those he deliberatly staved to death by removing their food sources.

This is undeniable bodies, documentaion and eyewittnes all show the same thing. Of course Mazdac you could denie it like Nazies do (who say its a Jewish plot) or you could just not except the Stalin Propaganda.

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Mazdak on 11:29 pm on Jan. 8, 2003

I will once again rely on the Trusty red comrades homepage as a source, as they have been so reliable.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embas.../7213/lies.html (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/7213/lies.html)

If you believe that piece of pure Propagander then you will believe any thing!

[Mazdak]

coming from someone who relies on capitalist sources to prove how many stalin killed, i take that last statement as a complement AK 47.

40 million is it now? You do realize that only around 30,000 bodies have been found right?

if you believe the capitalists lie about everything, how is it so difficult to believe they lie about this as well.

[Moskitto]

I disagree with you're numbers for Gypsies and Slavs AK47.

A Gypsy nazi hunting organization blames 800,000 gypsy deaths on the Nazis, whereas i have seen many sources on the holocaust cite the slavic genocide as being much higher, even as high as 5 million.

But I would agree that citing Stalinist websites in defence of Stalin is not the best idea.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from Moskitto on 9:45 pm on Jan. 9, 2003
I disagree with you're numbers for Gypsies and Slavs AK47.

A Gypsy nazi hunting organization blames 800,000 gypsy deaths on the Nazis, whereas i have seen many sources on the holocaust cite the slavic genocide as being much higher, even as high as 5 million.

But I would agree that citing Stalinist websites in defence of Stalin is not the best idea.

And using capitalist sources to show how many stalin killed isnt the best idea either.

[antieverything]

Twins weren't actively persecuted by the Nazis as far as I know. Twins found in concentration camps did have terrible experiments performed on them, though.

The fact of the matter is that we don't know how many people Stalin is responsible for the deaths of. We DO know that Stalin killed people for no reason other than the fact that they disagreed with his policies--something completely inexcusable. There is nothing so dangerous as claiming a monopoly on the truth.

[Thine Stalin]

Doesn't it fill you with awe though? Those words you just said did. Someone who controls how 1/6 of the planet thinks, of course, we have the same situation right now with liberal democrats deciding how we think with the news media.

To dyermaker, No, of course not, of course I would not openly disagree with the goverment which I know doesn't care to hear my opinions.

[Thine Stalin]

Oh by the way, I'm not a nazi, this is a example of someone's poor sense of humor.

[Aleksander Nordby]

But you are a fucking stalinist thats almost the same as a nazi, all of them are fucking stupid assholes.

[Stormin Norman]

"Someone who controls how 1/6 of the planet thinks, of course, we have the same situation right now with liberal democrats deciding how we think with the news media."-Stormin Norman

Nice one. However, they do not control thought yet. If the liberal democrats continue with there agenda this will once again become a reality.

[Capitalist Imperial]

I like it when the hippies and the stalinists devour each other.

[Invader Zim]

I find it amazing how you stalanists can defend a criminal, insult and threat to every thing you supposidly stand for, such as political freedom and other minor details as stalin saw them.

The best thing is that stalin died stinking of piss and with no family to comfort him. Do you know why, well ill tell you weather you do or not.

All the docters were so afraid of disobaying orders or making stalin angery that they did not allow his family to see him. As he had not ordered them to allow his family to visit they were to afraid to let them in. Ironicaly he died in horribly and alone like all those he murdered.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from Aleksander Nordby on 11:10 am on Jan. 10, 2003
But you are a fucking stalinist thats almost the same as a nazi, all of them are fucking stupid assholes.


LMAO. This is the great debate on the side of the liberatarians. This is all you can say, what are you three?

And they say we are idiots who can't debate!!

[Beccie]

Stalin and Hitler are both responsible for the deaths of millions of people, yet you do not see a problem with Stalin. What makes Stalin a better person than Hitler? His politics? If you can justify Stalin’s crimes but not Hitler’s I think that it is fair to say that you don't really care for the people that died during the holocaust you just don't care for Hitler’s political views.

[Thine Stalin]

Hitler was unable to make any use of his victims first so he gets less respect and the fact he was a nazi affects my judgement of him. >:(

But by the way, Stalin didn't like ANY of his family after his wife died, my sig has his quote before he became 'heartless' you must understand how he must have felt and obviously he didn't care about dying alone. Stalin didn't want all the doctors to prolong his lifespan, he was the ONLY prolateriat leader of the soviet union and he also remained that way all the way through. None of his family got special treatment and nor did he. The only emotion he ever showed to anyone after his wife died was when his daughter from his second marriage was around and the pride he felt when his second son became a hero and officer in the red army.

Stalin didn't like his family or anyone else so I don't think he honestly cared about dying alone, and his 'victims', which is a loose term, they regularly victimized the rest of russia more often, died in mass executions, as it was cheaper and scum like this didn't deserve dignified killing.

My russian teacher told me today that one of the only things she remembers from her childhood was when stalin died, she said she remembered everyone crying and the whole country going into depression over it.

[MEXCAN]

Stalin's mother should of let him die from Smallpox when he was kid !!!!

Thine Stalin and Mazdak !!One day you kids will grow up and grow out of this stupid admiration for that murdering bastard !!!!

[Mazdak]

STalin was VERY different from hitler. For one thing Stalin wasnt motivated to kill for the sake of killing. Hitler klilled because of race. Stalin killed because of possible treachery and threatening the Soviet union. Now, i think the worst of the two is obvious. Stalin also was more or less uncorruptable. That is why i admire him. Look at Dzerzhinsky, a man who by right should be admired by all socialists. He was completely uncorruptable. Stalin was the same way. They did not care about anything but the state and ridding it of its enemies. They devoted themselves to building up the Soviet Union. Stalin also killed SIGNIFICANTLY less than hitler. Not to mention Stalin's country had a huge population, while Hitler's had far fewer. How can you compare the two??

I am sick of these comparisons. They are an insult to Stalin's glorious name.

[MEXCAN]

Come on you little freak get over it !!!Read about something else !!!Write about something else !!!!!Stalin is dead he has no legacy what so ever!!!!Stop dreaming and join the real life kiddo !!!!

[Mazdak]

Quote: from MEXCAN on 5:06 am on Jan. 11, 2003
Come on you little freak get over it !!!Read about something else !!!Write about something else !!!!!Stalin is dead he has no legacy what so ever!!!!Stop dreaming and join the real life kiddo !!!!

Excellent debate. And i supposed Trotskyism is far more credible. :rollseyes:

This is what i have to deal with. Its no wonder stalin had to have people purged.

[Thine Stalin]

Stalin has plenty of legacy, goto russia and you will see the legacy. Stalin's legacy is the bringing of communism out of a messily organised post revolutionary goverment controlling a backward country, into the most powerful nation on earth.

There would be no red china, there would be no red cuba, or red korea, or red vietnam or red ANYTHING without stalin, NO che-guevara NO castro. If all these people had seen the soviet union collapse in its early days due to poorly management they would have all assumed communism was a failure. This webpage would not exist without STALIN!

If I could guess your age by your grammer I'd give you 6 years mexcan.

[MEXCAN]

Oh excuse-moi pour ma grammaire!!!!Premièrement JOVEN.You don't spell it "grammer",it's grammar!!!!Dum Ass !!!Segundo,c'est pas mon habitude de perdre mon temps a m'expliquer a des jeunes âme perdues comme toi !!!Mais pour toi,i'll make an exeption !!

Go to Russia!!!!Stalin's legacy is in Russia and should stay in Russia.People like Mazdak and yourself are nothing more than lost kids.Looking for an identity.lost in a world of dreams and envy !!!I just imagine.In your sick brains your must think you actually have common traits with Stalin !!!And that's why i now,someday, you will grow out of it!!!You will stop having a crush on the pretty man of steel !!!

[Thine Stalin]

You didn't address the point, the fact is, you wouldn't be a communist and this site would not exist had stalin not come to power.

[MEXCAN]

First i want you to know that i'm not a communist !!!How can anyone,from the states or canada,say they are communist !!!!Maybe you support communism,but you're not a communist !!!Although i think Che's ideology was flawed,i think he was a hundred times more well rounded an individual than any of the communist leaders !!!!No matter what,CHE was born to help the people !!!!Stalin had nothing to do with it.Che would be as big today if even if Stalin had not burdened us with his presence !!!!

[Eastside Revolt]

I hope that Stalin and Hitler as names and faces, should be wiped from history. Their actions should be known to the future as being done by mysterious men called shit-heads.

[Mazdak]

Quote: from redcanada on 1:30 am on Jan. 12, 2003
I hope that Stalin and Hitler as names and faces, should be wiped from history. Their actions should be known to the future as being done by mysterious men called shit-heads.

Beautiful. Mods.. you try to restrict me but ignorant shits like this get to roam free? You really need to start wiping out members who can't debate.

AS to Mexican, the fact that you aren't a communist excludes you.. If you do not support marx, there is sure as hell no way you would understand or support stalin. At least those who claim to be communists claim they understand.

[Eastside Revolt]

I wasn't really trying to debate. I just feel really strongly about dictators that impose themselves in whole countries and cause large-scale massacres as they please.

[Thine Stalin]

I'm not from the states or canada, I live there right now sure, but my citizenship is elsewhere, and how do you know che was born to help the people? Where would have got his start? What would have motivated him to be a humanitarian, I respect che as much as you, but you gotta understand, he didn't accomplish anything apart from giving the world a pretty face for communism and music bands a poster boy they know nothing about.

But your last sentance is wrong, che wouldn't be anything had it not been for his revolutionary activities, and his revolutionary activities would not have happened had stalin not siezed power and made sure russia did not collapse upon lenin's death.
And remember, you can use the period, fullstop, ending dot whatever the fuck you wanna call it, instead of 3 exclamation points, you just end up looking like you have misguided anger.

As to redcanada, what the f*ck are you talking about?

[Eastside Revolt]

Fine, you know what, I'm crazy. Stalin was just would have loved to see equallity for mankind, wasn't he. He also had nothing to do with the ukrane.

[Guest]

Quote: from redcanada on 3:01 am on Jan. 12, 2003
Fine, you know what, I'm crazy. Stalin was just would have loved to see equallity for mankind, wasn't he. He also had nothing to do with the ukrane.

Stop taking drugs!

[Eastside Revolt]

no

[Eastside Revolt]

Pop ritalin. Hail Stalin

[Guest]

Wow, that must be some powerful drug.

[MEXCAN]

That's where you are wrong Thine Stalin !!!!Yes today CHE is the poster boy for communism,which is deplorable!!!But CHE is popular all over latin america.Not CUZ he's a communist,but cuz he's a revolutionary.Most of latin america don't need a communist,they need someone who will fight for them !!CHE is also very popular in Ireland,why ??Are the people of ireland communists??No,they fight for their freedom!!!That is exactly what CHE did for parts of latin america !!!Yes CHE had communist idiologies,or should i say socialist????One of CHE's best friends who fought side by side with him in the cuban revolution was nothing close to being a communist.Was he popular,yes he was !!That is why Castro had him eliminated !!!I'm talking of course of Camilo Cienfuegos !!!Maybe you don't know him cuz he's not in your communist calendar !!???But rest asure,if he had not been killed,he would be as popular as CHE !!!!And Stalin would have nothing to do with it !!!!

[Mazdak]

Well, Mexican, your rants make no sense CUZ Camilo was not killd by Castro, and neither was Che. They both died thanks to the US.

And South america DOESNT need communists?

Mexican, maybe you should learn to stop whining CUZ it dont make you look no good.

[Anonymous]

oh dear marx... anti-communist leftists.... *sigh*


First i want you to know that i'm not a communist !!!How can anyone,from the states or canada,say they are communist !!!!Maybe you support communism,but you're not a communist !!!Although i think Che's ideology was flawed,i think he was a hundred times more well rounded an individual than any of the communist leaders !!!!No matter what,CHE was born to help the people !!!!Stalin had nothing to do with it.Che would be as big today if even if Stalin had not burdened us with his presence !!!!

uhhhh pardon me? since when you cant be communist if you are north american? communism is internationalist, you dont even have to join a communist party to be communist...


That's where you are wrong Thine Stalin !!!!Yes today CHE is the poster boy for communism,which is deplorable!!!But CHE is popular all over latin america.Not CUZ he's a communist,but cuz he's a revolutionary.Most of latin america don't need a communist,they need someone who will fight for them !!CHE is also very popular in Ireland,why ??Are the people of ireland communists??No,they fight for their freedom!!!That is exactly what CHE did for parts of latin america !!!Yes CHE had communist idiologies,or should i say socialist????One of CHE's best friends who fought side by side with him in the cuban revolution was nothing close to being a communist.Was he popular,yes he was !!That is why Castro had him eliminated !!!I'm talking of course of Camilo Cienfuegos !!!Maybe you don't know him cuz he's not in your communist calendar !!???But rest asure,if he had not been killed,he would be as popular as CHE !!!!And Stalin would have nothing to do with it !!!!

and, again ifhe wasnt communist why did he helped the revolution?
communism is about power to the people, freedom, if you have such a bad image about fidel then you should know che woprkedwith him, and knew all dam well his policys...
the reason why che helped and was always traveling to fight fascism wasbecause he was communist. because, internationalism is a damn important communist carecteristic, it is in fact something stalinists like to ignore, that, and human rights, freedom, any sense of democracy or socialism, but thats other story...
what i mean is, if you like che that muchyou should know thatthe reaasons why you like him, only existed becasue he was communist...

so think twice before maing your anti-communist comments like "north americans cant be communists"...

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from MEXCAN on 8:53 am on Jan. 12, 2003
That's where you are wrong Thine Stalin !!!!Yes today CHE is the poster boy for communism,which is deplorable!!!But CHE is popular all over latin america.Not CUZ he's a communist,but cuz he's a revolutionary.Most of latin america don't need a communist,they need someone who will fight for them !!CHE is also very popular in Ireland,why ??Are the people of ireland communists??No,they fight for their freedom!!!That is exactly what CHE did for parts of latin america !!!Yes CHE had communist idiologies,or should i say socialist????One of CHE's best friends who fought side by side with him in the cuban revolution was nothing close to being a communist.Was he popular,yes he was !!That is why Castro had him eliminated !!!I'm talking of course of Camilo Cienfuegos !!!Maybe you don't know him cuz he's not in your communist calendar !!???But rest asure,if he had not been killed,he would be as popular as CHE !!!!And Stalin would have nothing to do with it !!!!


For once i find my self siding with, the brit hater Mexican. Their is no dout that every thing he has said in this debate is gosble truth. If Stalin was so popular then why is he hated nearly as much as Hitler.

Also i find it very amuzing that "communists" (nazis more like) can possibly support Stalin killing his political enemies. I mean stopping all freedom of speach, opposition political views goes against every thing that Marx, Engles and Che stood for. Even if i cant prove stalin killed 60 million people i can prove he was an enemy to socialism.

[Smoking Frog II]

Fuck you Mazdak. You are fucking bastard who doesnt care if you help out the Cappies as long as the facts are right.

Whose side are you on you fucking wanker?

[MEXCAN]

Ak47,I love brits.I just hate the british goverment and their policies.I have nothing against you,i just disagree with some of your views.

(Edited by MEXCAN at 9:13 pm on Jan. 13, 2003)

[Smoking Frog II]

Quote: from MEXCAN on 9:08 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
Ak47,I love brits.I just hate the british goverment and their policies.I have nothing against you,i just disagree with some of your views.


I am a brit, but tony blair is a shit

[MEXCAN]

MAZDAK,why do you think the US has always been on a crusade to eliminate communism?Because of tyrannical men like Stalin.I would go as far as saying, that CHE would not have been chased to his death,had it not been for the image Stalin cast on communism.

[Anonymous]

america started his anti-communist crusade long before stalin.....

the burguase know all damn well what is comunism, thats why they fear it, just imagine, a world without exploitation from man to man... Yackes that would hurt the burguase...

they use stalin has an excuse, also they adere to certain countrys as china and north korea as communists, when theyr pseudo-socialist fascists, and sotry to prove to the masses how bad communism is, when the people dont even realise what communism and socialism really is....

for, if they knew, Mc shit world would disapear....

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Smoking Frog II on 9:16 pm on Jan. 13, 2003

Quote: from MEXCAN on 9:08 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
Ak47,I love brits.I just hate the british goverment and their policies.I have nothing against you,i just disagree with some of your views.


I am a brit, but tony blair is a shit

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mazdak]

Well, mexican, you actually seem to be trying to justify american anti communism. what great leftist you are.

These last few posts prove how badly this website needs to start cleaning up. And when i say cleaning up, i dont mean getting rid of stalinists, i mean getting rid of idiots like the above folk who can barely talk or write let along understand a political philosophy. Next time you wish to criticize me, i will remember this thread.