Why communism will never work

[MrTrooper]

hey hey everyone
up an till very recently, i considered myself a communist. not for reasons of 'wanting to be different' or 'to stand out' or any ridiculous and childish purposes like that, but simply because it seemed right. After much personal comparative work between capitalism and communism, I've realised that having this particular opinion was foolish. why? because communism is a bliss, a perfect almost, a surrealists dream. i do my fair share of wishing this and that could happen, i have a particular green thumb, and crave that our governments do more to save our environment, but little is being done. but no matter what light i consider communism in, it simply cannot be achieved. firstly, the economic system. communism suggests, and correct me if I'm wrong which i possibly am, that everyone works, is paid the same amount of money, and has equality in every sense. seems nice eh? and i suppose that in a single generation, it could work, and it could work beautifully. I'm sure lawyers and doctors might be a bit annoyed that they are being paid the same amount as cleaners and servants for an arguably more important job, but thats another argument. but then i ask, what comes in the second generation, the generation after the instigation of communism. they will be presented with an option, work hard in school, go to university, pass with stunning marks after much hard work, and achieve a job in say law or health. they get paid 'x' dollars. or they could do absolutely nothing at school, not bother going to university, party all weekend and do nothing to advance themselves educationally. they fail their exams and achieve a job as a cleaner. but they get the same pay. so which choice do you think they would take? the hard long road or the simplistic easy road, each with the same economic benefits? its asking a LOT for people to work long and hard with absolutely NO bonuses except that get moral feeling inside. some people (only the extreme communists this is) state that under a true communist lead, there would be no money. so what happens then? i want this, you want that. makes sense to trade doesn't it? but that is still technically a form of money, just without a single currency, so that wouldn't be an option. the only real technique that could be used would be to simply give away your products! personally, when communism is instated I'll be claiming Microsoft as my own. well, until someone comes along and takes it from me....legally..............does it make sense? now I'm not saying capitalism is that good, it revolves on a system of people taking and not giving, which although is certainly a brutish system, it must be taken into consideration that the majority of human kind are brutes. period. but at least it is a system that works. unfortunately in government someone will always be annoyed by a system, someone won't want something the way it is. and more people, the red necks, the selfish twats, will be annoyed with a communist rule, simply because it takes the competition out of life. in my opinion, something in the very middle of the two must be established. maybe it already exists, and I'm simply not educated enough to know what it is....we need a world with money, with corporate boxing and economic war. but we also need the equality of communism. we need people to know and understand when they have too much, that they must give some away. not split it 50/50, but enough. communism will never work on it's own. but capitalism will and does, whether we like it or not. and it's time to stop desiring the surreal, because although some may desire it (me especially), it must be remember that in our corporate world, not everyone will be happy. and that is the one fault that communism can never hope to comprehend and deal with.

[RedAnarchist]

hey hey everyone
up an till very recently, i considered myself a communist. not for reasons of 'wanting to be different' or 'to stand out' or any ridiculous and childish purposes like that, but simply because it seemed right.

"Because it seemed right"? You can't just follow an ideology just because it feels right, you have to understand it and actually be convinced about it.


After much personal comparative work between capitalism and communism, I've realised that having this particular opinion was foolish. why? because communism is a bliss, a perfect almost, a surrealists dream.

The you never were a communist, because if you had read communist literature, you would know that we are not seeking an impossible Utopia.


i do my fair share of wishing this and that could happen, i have a particular green thumb, and crave that our governments do more to save our environment, but little is being done.

Environmentalism isn't just a communist idea - some environmentalists are very right wing, so I don't know why you mentioned this.


but no matter what light i consider communism in, it simply cannot be achieved. firstly, the economic system. communism suggests, and correct me if I'm wrong which i possibly am, that everyone works, is paid the same amount of money, and has equality in every sense. seems nice eh? and i suppose that in a single generation, it could work, and it could work beautifully.

In some forms of communism, especially Anarchist Communism, we would have no currency. It would be the "to him/her according to need, from him/her according to ability".


I'm sure lawyers and doctors might be a bit annoyed that they are being paid the same amount as cleaners and servants for an arguably more important job, but thats another argument.

We won't have either lawyers or servants.


but then i ask, what comes in the second generation, the generation after the instigation of communism. they will be presented with an option, work hard in school, go to university, pass with stunning marks after much hard work, and achieve a job in say law or health. they get paid 'x' dollars.

You called yourself a communist and yet you seem to have little idea about Communist economics.


or they could do absolutely nothing at school, not bother going to university, party all weekend and do nothing to advance themselves educationally. they fail their exams and achieve a job as a cleaner. but they get the same pay. so which choice do you think they would take? the hard long road or the simplistic easy road, each with the same economic benefits? its asking a LOT for people to work long and hard with absolutely NO bonuses except that get moral feeling inside.

Society would be different from today. People would be allowed to live their life much freer than they can under capitalism. And what would be a "moral feeling" in a society which would be atheist?


some people (only the extreme communists this is) state that under a true communist lead, there would be no money. so what happens then? i want this, you want that. makes sense to trade doesn't it? but that is still technically a form of money, just without a single currency, so that wouldn't be an option.

How is that another form of money?


the only real technique that could be used would be to simply give away your products! personally, when communism is instated I'll be claiming Microsoft as my own.

Microsoft won't exist under communism.


well, until someone comes along and takes it from me....legally..............does it make sense? now I'm not saying capitalism is that good, it revolves on a system of people taking and not giving, which although is certainly a brutish system, it must be taken into consideration that the majority of human kind are brutes. period. but at least it is a system that works.

Oh, its a system that works? Try going to an homeless shelter and saying that.


unfortunately in government someone will always be annoyed by a system, someone won't want something the way it is. and more people, the red necks, the selfish twats, will be annoyed with a communist rule, simply because it takes the competition out of life.

Communist rule is such an ugly oxymoron. And class conciousness is required before any communist society can even begin to be built, so there would be no "red necks" to complain.


in my opinion, something in the very middle of the two must be established. maybe it already exists, and I'm simply not educated enough to know what it is....we need a world with money, with corporate boxing and economic war. but we also need the equality of communism. we need people to know and understand when they have too much, that they must give some away. not split it 50/50, but enough. communism will never work on it's own. but capitalism will and does, whether we like it or not.

Liberalism is probably your answer to the world's problems, even though it seems to cause them half the time.


and it's time to stop desiring the surreal, because although some may desire it (me especially), it must be remember that in our corporate world, not everyone will be happy. and that is the one fault that communism can never hope to comprehend and deal with.

Of course noone will be happy in a "corporate" world, apart from the rich and powerful. And since when has communism been surreal?

[MrTrooper]

my points of 'because it felt right' was me understanding it and feeling, at the time, convinced by it. what the hell else would it be? i specifically made the point of it being for logical purposes, ie, a personal justification that it was suitable!
secondly, how the hell is communism anything but surrealism? its the idea that everyone helps each other, shares they're money, gets alone nicely like little children in a park. i hate to bring you back to reality mate, but most people do not get along. we have had two world wars, a cold war, an arms race, the worlds first war between country and religion. we have murder, rape, theft and hatred spilling out on our streets. you can not flick a switch, instigate communism, and expect everything to change. human kind developed like this for a reason. we are hateful people, with a few exceptions of course.
thirdly, did i ever say environmentalism is just a communist idea? nothing that i wrote even suggested anything at all similar to that point! my point is that im more concerned with our environment than any other problem on a global scale, but that little is being done to save it. that is, if anything, a capitalism problem. wtf man....
forthly, you said: "It would be the "to him/her according to need, from him/her according to ability"." so are you saying, that unless we really need something.....we dont get it? this basicly means that 'wants' in the world would completely disappear. sounds like fun. do you really think human kind would embrace this idea?
fifthly, your quote, we won't have lawyers or servants. fine, besides the point that with these reductions of jobs (not just these but all related to them), you would be cutting a huge number of jobs to nothing, and believe it or not, some people like to work. i have close friends that live to argue in court, its not a job, a passion. but fine, we'll just remove their jobs, it's for the greater good after all. who may i ask, are you to decide what this greater good?
sixthly, your statement: "And what would be a "moral feeling" in a society which would be atheist?". might i remind you that you don't have to be religious to have moral obligations. it's what controls most people.
seventhly (seems to be piling up....), you question, how is this a form of money. well i suppose a form of currency would be the more suitable word for you. while it may not be money in a paper or coin sense, it is still something that is being cashed in for something else. it may have a different name, but it does the same thing. i simply called it money because i thought people would be capable of looking past words into the actual information i was trying to pass. seems i thought too much of the human population, again....
eightly, microsoft won't exist under communist rule. OKAY, now THAT made me LAUGH!! dear friend, may i ask, what will exist under a communist rule? see i'm starting to think you might not be communist. armish perhaps. would you like to remove computers altogether? where do we draw the line? maybe......we should get rid of supermarkets too? they can compete to a certain degree therefore, evil apparently. lets just go directly to the farmers, and take the food from them! remembering, that we would be taking, not buying, because according to you, we dont have a currency!
and your question of 'it's a system that works, try looking at a homeless shelter etc etc'. okay, it works, and has flaws. happy? specific enough? if we are really going to go into depths, are you going to try and say that communism has NO flaws? because if you are, i think you're simply confirm my belief that you surround yourself in a surreal environment. keep dreaming kiddo.
and finally!!! (yes, this does have a finale), your statement that no one will be happy in a capitalist environment except the rich and famous.....i think i sat and stared at my computer screen for several minutes in silent amusement while i read that comment. SO BASICALLY , what your saying, is that not a single person, who is not of high socio-economic status, is depressed. im not. my friends and family aren't. my neighbours aren't. to be honest, the only people whom i have noticed being annoyed with 'the system' so to speak, are the people on this forum, and forums like it! so please, cut this bullshit, the only people who like a capitalist controlled world are the rich. read a fucking textbook for christ sake.

please by all means, rebut me. i look forward to your response.

[Hiero]

Please by all means neccassary, use paragraphs.

Here is a website explaining paragraphs.

http://www.ncistudent.net/studyskills/writingskills/WritingParagraphs.htm

It is very hard to read people's post if they don't use paragraphs. So I have just skimmed.

You should read these two essays on Socialism and Communism by Engels.

Principles of Communism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm)

Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
(http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/index.htm)

[RedAnarchist]

my points of 'because it felt right' was me understanding it and feeling, at the time, convinced by it. what the hell else would it be? i specifically made the point of it being for logical purposes, ie, a personal justification that it was suitable!

You obviously don't understand communism, as evidenced by your comments in this thread.


secondly, how the hell is communism anything but surrealism? its the idea that everyone helps each other, shares they're money, gets alone nicely like little children in a park.

Communism is not Utopia. People won't become mindless drones or emotionless shells. It is the idea of cooperation and freedom, not of coercion or liberalism.


i hate to bring you back to reality mate, but most people do not get along. we have had two world wars, a cold war, an arms race, the worlds first war between country and religion. we have murder, rape, theft and hatred spilling out on our streets. you can not flick a switch, instigate communism, and expect everything to change.

Who says that communism will be instantaneous? It will take at least a couple of generations after a revolution to fully create a communist society. And that society, I admit, is sometimes a little fuzzy as we don't know exactly what it will be like, although we know how society will be run.


human kind developed like this for a reason. we are hateful people, with a few exceptions of course.

Communists tend to believe that people are inherently "good" and that it is our environment that shapes us the most, rather than our genes.


thirdly, did i ever say environmentalism is just a communist idea? nothing that i wrote even suggested anything at all similar to that point! my point is that im more concerned with our environment than any other problem on a global scale, but that little is being done to save it. that is, if anything, a capitalism problem. wtf man....

It is a problem of capitalism, caused by capitalism. Climate change is not entirely the fault of humanity, but we can easily cut back the amount of damage we cause to the environment.


forthly, you said: "It would be the "to him/her according to need, from him/her according to ability"." so are you saying, that unless we really need something.....we dont get it? this basicly means that 'wants' in the world would completely disappear. sounds like fun. do you really think human kind would embrace this idea?

Of course you would, it doesn't mean what you think it means at all.


fifthly, your quote, we won't have lawyers or servants. fine, besides the point that with these reductions of jobs (not just these but all related to them), you would be cutting a huge number of jobs to nothing, and believe it or not, some people like to work. i have close friends that live to argue in court, its not a job, a passion. but fine, we'll just remove their jobs, it's for the greater good after all. who may i ask, are you to decide what this greater good?

We won't have lawyers because we won't have laws. People will be free to be whatever they want, rather than being slotted into a career they might hate.


sixthly, your statement: "And what would be a "moral feeling" in a society which would be atheist?". might i remind you that you don't have to be religious to have moral obligations. it's what controls most people.

No, what controls most people is empathy, not morals.


seventhly (seems to be piling up....), you question, how is this a form of money. well i suppose a form of currency would be the more suitable word for you. while it may not be money in a paper or coin sense, it is still something that is being cashed in for something else. it may have a different name, but it does the same thing. i simply called it money because i thought people would be capable of looking past words into the actual information i was trying to pass. seems i thought too much of the human population, again....

I can't really comprehend what you're trying to say here.


eightly, microsoft won't exist under communist rule. OKAY, now THAT made me LAUGH!! dear friend, may i ask, what will exist under a communist rule? see i'm starting to think you might not be communist. armish perhaps. would you like to remove computers altogether? where do we draw the line? maybe......we should get rid of supermarkets too? they can compete to a certain degree therefore, evil apparently. lets just go directly to the farmers, and take the food from them! remembering, that we would be taking, not buying, because according to you, we dont have a currency!

Microsoft is a corporation. Computers will still exist, they just won't be made/sold by some mega-rich company.


and your question of 'it's a system that works, try looking at a homeless shelter etc etc'. okay, it works, and has flaws. happy? specific enough? if we are really going to go into depths, are you going to try and say that communism has NO flaws? because if you are, i think you're simply confirm my belief that you surround yourself in a surreal environment. keep dreaming kiddo.

No ideology has flaws. I've said this before in this thread - Communism is not a Utopia.


and finally!!! (yes, this does have a finale), your statement that no one will be happy in a capitalist environment except the rich and famous.....i think i sat and stared at my computer screen for several minutes in silent amusement while i read that comment. SO BASICALLY , what your saying, is that not a single person, who is not of high socio-economic status, is depressed. im not. my friends and family aren't. my neighbours aren't. to be honest, the only people whom i have noticed being annoyed with 'the system' so to speak, are the people on this forum, and forums like it! so please, cut this bullshit, the only people who like a capitalist controlled world are the rich. read a fucking textbook for christ sake.

I think you took what I wrote too literally. Of course people who aren't rich will be happy, but what is happy in a capitalist society? Owning a huge television or a sports car? Having loads of money? In a communist society, people won't need to work all day to pay for these sort of things.

[Jazzratt]

Did you read the FAQ?

[Herman]

This is obviously someone who's vaguely heard about communism, taken the most silly stereotypes from it and believes them all to be entirely true.

[Dimentio]

This is obviously someone who's vaguely heard about communism, taken the most silly stereotypes from it and believes them all to be entirely true.

Like 80% of the population?

[Bud Struggle]

Like 80% of the population?

I was that way when I first came here. I must say, while I'm no believer--I am pleasently suprised.

[Lost In Translation]

I can barely read what Mr.Trooper is saying. I gave up after the first three lines. Go and read the stuff in the Learning page THOROUGHLY before writing lines and lines of a capitalist's view of communism.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I can barely read what Mr.Trooper is saying. I gave up after the first three lines. Go and read the stuff in the Learning page THOROUGHLY before writing lines and lines of a capitalist's view of communism.

Global commie is the best thirteen year old commie.

[Sendo]

if you give a damn about the environment you have to be a socialist. Anything else is irrational idealism. Look at Big Oil, the free market has done almost nothing to pioneer new technology. The free trade agreements have set up a global economy where products and materials get shipped transcontinentally to save money on wages. Capitalism has also done a number on food production. Agribusinesses produce unsustainable food. They boost gross production to flood markets but are extremely inefficient. Read The Death of Ramon Gonzales, or Pesticides and the Third World Poor, and a host of other books on the "green" revolution.

You also have the problem that sustainalbe energy is not profitable. Good energy policy should be decentralized, networked, and not built around a commodity.

Socialism is not about fuzzy idealism, it's about a realization of the inherent flaws in capitalism. Read some Marx, some Chomsky, and if you're an environmentalist read James O'Connor's "Natural Causes". Read some Monthly Review issues, too. It's about worker's control, not unorganized chaos and gift giving/taking.

[Kronos]

...and that's a wrap.

[Kronos]

Comrades, how many times have you heard "communism only works in theory, not in practice?"

You've lost count.

Well, next time you hear that, say "capitalism doesn't work in theory, and it works worse in practice."

That oughta shut them up.

[Kronos]

Communism won't work because it's human nature to want things", tell them that is exactly why capitalism won't work, because of human nature.

Normally a capitalist puts it like this: "...because man is inherently greedy". Then he says "..and that is okay."

You can respond by bashing his knee-caps in with a bat and stealing his wallet.

As he writhes around on the floor in agony, begging "why did you do that?!", tell him "but I thought you said man was inherently greedy, and that this is okay."

Watch him change his mind.

[comrade stalin guevara]

capitolist have ruled for 2000 years if communisim wins it be anotha 2000 b4 we are truly free



anarchy4goverment
communisim4economy

[comrade stalin guevara]

i consider the romans capitolist,jesus etc greeks

we will be free under communisim me and you i mean
it will take time for others to accept communisim thus years to be free mayb not 2000

[Bud Struggle]

i consider the romans capitolist,jesus etc greeks

we will be free under communisim me and you i mean
it will take time for others to accept communisim thus years to be free mayb not 2000

By that time Capitalism will be back in fashion. :lol:

[comrade stalin guevara]

hahaha permanent revolution is real.....
and im a stalinist

[Sentinel]

i consider the romans capitolist,jesus etc greeks

According to Marxist historical materialism the capitalist stage didn't start before (roughly) one and a half millenia after the Roman Empire though -- the romans and other nations of the antiquity had slave labor societies, not capitalist ones.

Jesus -- if he indeed existed -- was a supporter of that system, with theocratic tendencies.

[comrade stalin guevara]

PRAVADA comrade can you teach me more about jesus politic

[F9]

capitolist have ruled for 2000 years if communisim wins it be anotha 2000 b4 we are truly free



anarchy4goverment
communisim4economy



hahaha permanent revolution is real.....
and im a stalinist

what are you really an Anarchist or a stalinist?you get me confused:confused:On one hand you say that communism wont be with freedom if doesnt comes from Anarchism ,and on the other hand you call yourself a stalinist!:blink:Are you an anarcho-stalinist kind?:lol:

Fuserg9:star:

[comrade stalin guevara]

im not sure comrade thats y im hea to learn

stalin is a comrade
permanent revolution is real

i need to learn more about anarcho
but i seen that on someones file
anarchy 4 goverment cos people will come to dipise communist dictatorship of govt

[Sentinel]

PRAVADA comrade can you teach me more about jesus politic Here's a post of mine in which I explain my interpretation of them pretty well. Link (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1046509&postcount=11)

[comrade stalin guevara]

kia ora comrade

[Lost In Translation]

Global commie is the best thirteen year old commie.
Darn, I thought I was doing well concealing my age. But then posting my age on the Chit Chat forum doesn't help either, does it?:blushing:

[Lost In Translation]

hahaha permanent revolution is real.....
and im a stalinist
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't permanent revolution Trotsky's idea??? If you're a Stalinist, and you acknowledge the fact that permanent revolution is very much realistic...then...ok, I'm really confused now.

[comrade stalin guevara]

tame iti is a nationalist not even for his race but for his tribe

he is not a terrorist
i would support him in armed struggle if only to influence his politic
most maori dont realise b4 colonization we were a communist society
when i bring up communisim up to maori comrades they usely have a negative view
with answers like why transfer from britain to russia
it is hard to explain to them that the soviet union was w state of the world

[comrade stalin guevara]

yes it is trotsky

these men come from last centry can we not unite there thoughts to benefit all communist

TROTSKYIST AND STALINIST OF REV/LEFT UNITE!!!!!

[Lost In Translation]

yes it is trotsky

these men come from last centry can we not unite there thoughts to benefit all communist

I guess, but there always have been bad blood between Trotskyists and Stalinists, so I had to make sure.

[comrade stalin guevara]

fair enuf comrade cos stalin had trotsky caped [or picked myt be more truthful]
but yea if we unite the trots and stalinoz, we will be stronger
with stalins hunger to destroy corprate facisim and trotskys permanent revolution
we will be free

[Sir Comradical]

"Communism won't work" for the extremely wealthy parasites on society who need this current system to exist so they can maintain their bank accounts and obscenely extravagant lifestyles.

May I suggest paragraphs.

[MrTrooper]

okay im not going to bother quoting anyone, because every second idiot seems to be saying it, concerning my lack of paragraphs

(see, i've learnt) well firstly i'd like to apologise! as per usual, i have assumed that the general population was capable of reading things if there was not a white space in between different topics. i forget that seemingly most of you are incapable of this, just as you probably have your mummy and daddy's helping you read this right now! dont worry comrades, this mistake won't be made again, as my respect for some of you, is decreasing consistently:lol:

(oh look another paragraph)
enjoy reading other peoples throughly paragraphed statements!
mr t

[RedAnarchist]

Darn, I thought I was doing well concealing my age. But then posting my age on the Chit Chat forum doesn't help either, does it?:blushing:

Nor does having the number "94" in your username either (although that may not be your year of birth).

[Lost In Translation]

Nor does having the number "94" in your username either (although that may not be your year of birth).
Oh well, then I can't be blamed for being young and not understanding how everything works, then.:D

[superiority]

okay im not going to bother quoting anyone, because every second idiot seems to be saying it, concerning my lack of paragraphs

(see, i've learnt) well firstly i'd like to apologise! as per usual, i have assumed that the general population was capable of reading things if there was not a white space in between different topics. i forget that seemingly most of you are incapable of this, just as you probably have your mummy and daddy's helping you read this right now! dont worry comrades, this mistake won't be made again, as my respect for some of you, is decreasing consistently:lol:

(oh look another paragraph)
enjoy reading other peoples throughly paragraphed statements!
mr t

It's hard on the eyes, and hard to keep track of where you are in a monolithic wall of text.