Wages Caps in sports?

[Holden Caulfield]

do you cappies think that Wage caps are unfair and that sportsmen/women have the right, in a free nation, to earn what they can and have as higher wages as afforded to them, and that the state should not interfere in such matters.

when answering think that C.Ronaldo can earn in a week what my dad earns in about 10 years, and that Ronaldo plays a game for his living whereas my Dad works shifts.

[lvl100]

I guess its all about productivity.
As a normal worker you can satisfy the needs of a small numbers of customers/day ( 20 if you make chairs , or maybe 500 if you work in a supermarket as a cashier).
While a sportsman/women can satisfy the needs (for sport in this case) of hundreds of millions in just 1 hour.

[lvl100]

So do you think that people are currently earning a wage in relation to how many people they satisfy? Because that's not the case.

That was a simpler view. Wage its actually more complex , it depends on productivity, offer/demand of workforce, offer/demand of the market, national/global economic situation and so on, and so on
A sportsman who can satisfy millions of people means high productivity.
A sportsman who is born 1 in a billion is a damn good offer for work force demand.
A sportsman who can offer a product that is requiered by hundreds of millions is a damn good offer for market demand.

And i can continue but i guess you got my ideea.

[RedAnarchist]

That was a simpler view. Wage its actually more complex , it depends on productivity, offer/demand of workforce, offer/demand of the market, national/global economic situation and so on, and so on
A sportsman who can satisfy millions of people means high productivity.
A sportsman who is born 1 in a billion is a damn good offer for work force demand.
A sportsman who can offer a product that is requiered by hundreds of millions is a damn good offer for market demand.

And i can continue but i guess you got my ideea.

I didn't think a sportspersons talents were required by anyone (except those for whom he/she plays/participates such as a football team).

[lvl100]

I didn't think a sportspersons talents were required by anyone (except those for whom he/she plays/participates such as a football team).

Say that to hundreds of millions of people who are jumping and hugging every time their soccer teams scores or crying like little babies when they lose

[RedAnarchist]

Say that to hundreds of millions of people who are jumping and hugging every time their soccer teams scores or crying like little babies when they lose

But that isn't a requirement, is it?

[lvl100]

But that isn't a requirement, is it?

What do you mean isnt a requieremnt ? Talent or viewing audience ?

[RedAnarchist]

What do you mean isnt a requieremnt ? Talent or viewing audience ?

It isn't a requirement for the viewing audience to view the sport.

[lvl100]

It isn't a requirement for the viewing audience to view the sport.

Ofcourse it is. Entraitment its part of the human nature and what one of his basic needs.

[RedAnarchist]

Ofcourse it is. Entraitment its part of the human nature and what one of his basic needs.

I'll give you that, but it doesn't mean that a sportsperson should be paid more than anyone else.

[Holden Caulfield]

i for one am just as happy/sad watching Carlisle when they were in the conferance and lower leagues, and the players were getting paid more average wages, as i am watching Man Utd or Arsenal etc...

i hug and scream when i am playing sports, its because of the enjoyment of the game not because i think the players are some kind of supermen who need or deserve 150,000 a week

[lvl100]

I'll give you that, but it doesn't mean that a sportsperson should be paid more than anyone else.

Im not advocating for the obscene amounts of money they get.
But we cant ignore the mechanisms that create it
.
A moron can become a manager becouse daddy paid for him or just put him in place. So the mechanism of producing managers can be abused.

A sportsman who can ignore the law of physics when playing with a ball cant be created with a twist of a pen. So the mechanisms for a sportman are closer to reality.

Thats why I`m sure that even in a communist age, while they clealry dont have the posibility to become so rich, they will still live a good life comparing to others.

[Robert]

They don't necessarily deserve it, but should be free to negotiate with us, the fans, and vice versa. What you do with your money is none of my business.

Personally, I don't attend professional sports events unless someone else is buying the ticket.

[RedAnarchist]

Personally, I don't attend professional sports events unless someone else is buying the ticket.

That avatar is very apt then?:lol:

[pusher robot]

do you cappies think that Wage caps are unfair and that sportsmen/women have the right, in a free nation, to earn what they can and have as higher wages as afforded to them, and that the state should not interfere in such matters.

when answering think that C.Ronaldo can earn in a week what my dad earns in about 10 years, and that Ronaldo plays a game for his living whereas my Dad works shifts.

With a little bit of instruction, could C. Ronaldo do what your dad does to a similar level of competency? Could your dad do what C. Ronaldo does?

C. Ronaldo is entitled to whatever people are willing to give him to see him perform. So is your dad. In that, everyone is equal.

[Lost In Translation]

do you cappies think that Wage caps are unfair and that sportsmen/women have the right, in a free nation, to earn what they can and have as higher wages as afforded to them, and that the state should not interfere in such matters.

when answering think that C.Ronaldo can earn in a week what my dad earns in about 10 years, and that Ronaldo plays a game for his living whereas my Dad works shifts.
Actually, in North American Hockey (ice hockey, mind you), the league has put a limit on the salaries a player could earn in a season (11 million USD). However, I would hazard to say that what the football (soccer) industry has become now is a whole bunch of money throwing arses. They will go to incomprehensible lengths to obtain players of high calibre. For example, Real Madrid will pay ANYTHING for Cristiano Ronaldo. This number will only go higher, and higher, and higher, until all the big clubs are bankrupt, and we're stuck watching Blue Square Premier League.

[Unicorn]

In socialist states sportsmen and sportswomen were often employed by the army or were awarded stipends.

[Killfacer]

thanks for that unicorn, a trully insightful on topic comment.

Obviously they are paid alot, but that's supply and demand surely. Like somebody said, someone like Theirry Henri or Didier Drogba could, with a small amount of training, be perfectly capable of being a builder. A builder on the other hand would not be able to score 30 goals a season for Chelsea.

Having said that these players are payed mosterous amounts, but if there is a market for it then so be it.

[Holden Caulfield]

thanks for that unicorn, a trully insightful on topic comment.

Obviously they are paid alot, but that's supply and demand surely. Like somebody said, someone like Theirry Henri or Didier Drogba could, with a small amount of training, be perfectly capable of being a builder. A builder on the other hand would not be able to score 30 goals a season for Chelsea.

Having said that these players are payed mosterous amounts, but if there is a market for it then so be it.

a doctor goes through years of training and is very clever by anyones standards and he earns lots and lots, a bin man does not have to be either of these things but does deserve a equal wage.

without binmen doctors would be swamped and we would all die of plague before the doctor could see us, he would also be dead. Look at the black death the places 'spared' were placed with good sanitation and waste disposal.

in a socialist society when all education is free and so are the people the footballer will be paid the same as the fans (who are builders) as with out the fans they are nothing and will have no homes in which to live etc etc

[pusher robot]

without binmen doctors would be swamped and we would all die of plague before the doctor could see us, he would also be dead. Look at the black death the places 'spared' were placed with good sanitation and waste disposal.

Wrong. A doctor could empty his own bins at the expense of some time doctoring. The binman couldn't perform surgery, no matter how much time he wasn't emptying bins. The black death did not occur for want of binmen, it occurred for want of medical knowledge.

[lvl100]

Wrong. A doctor could empty his own bins at the expense of some time doctoring. The binman couldn't perform surgery, no matter how much time he wasn't emptying bins. The black death did not occur for want of binmen, it occurred for want of medical knowledge.

Of course


in a socialist society when all education is free and so are the people the footballer will be paid the same as the fans (who are builders) as with out the fans they are nothing and will have no homes in which to live etc etc

What the hell has to do the education with talent ? I can give you a zillion of $ and 1000 years of education, and you woulnd be like Ronaldo

You still dont get it. Sportsman are a special niche. They are extremly rare
and in the same time they satisfy the needs for a huge amount of people.

Yes in communism they wouldnt acummulate so many riches. But they wouldn "earn" like a simple builder.
Becouse there is one 1 Ronaldo and 500 milions of builders. Wanna bet that the builders all over the world will compete to build for him the nicest house in order to make it play on their land ?
So, in the end, even he cant be payed with money anymore , he will have a house ten times bigger than yours.

[Bud Struggle]

You still dont get it. Sportsman are a special niche. They are extremly rare
and in the same time they satisfy the needs for a huge amount of people.


Same as talented musicians, or writers, or actors. I can see that.

[lvl100]

Same as talented musicians, or writers, or actors. I can see that.

Damn TomK you ruined all. The other types were meant to be revealed one by one in a planned manner in order to protect him from a shock.
Isnt enough the pain that he just found out that he cant earn as much as a sportsman even in communism ? Now he knows about the musicians, writers or actors too....:crying:

[Bud Struggle]

Damn TomK you ruined all. The other types were meant to be revealed one by one in a planned manner in order to protect him from a shock.
Isnt enough the pain that he just found out that he cant earn as much as a sportsman even in communism ? Now he knows about the musicians, writers or actors too....:crying:

Now here's the shocker.................
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Businessmen.

They (along with love) make the world go round.

Welcome to Communist ;) China.:D

[RGacky3]

They don't necessarily deserve it, but should be free to negotiate with us, the fans, and vice versa. What you do with your money is none of my business.

Personally, I don't attend professional sports events unless someone else is buying the ticket.

Its the market, of coarse they deserve it, is'nt that the whole basis of Capitalism, if they are making it on the market, they deserve it?

[F9]

football must return to its roots,players play for their team and their believes and not for the money.Football got business thing,sold out at the communist system.Of course some teams have left a little behind and didnt yet become business!Football is an entertainment,is a LOVE fir some people.Those huge salary caps should dissapear and let football return to its roots.We dont want a sell out major team,we want a team representing us(as fans) and be near us.So yes i am next to my team as long as it isnt transformed to a modern bussines and i am jumping and hugging every time my soccer teams scores or crying like little babies when we lose.
AGAINST MODERN FOOTBALL

Fuserg9:star:

[comrade stalin guevara]

pravada comrade

[RGacky3]

Those huge salary caps should dissapear and let football return to its roots.We dont want a sell out major team,we want a team representing us(as fans) and be near us.

Do you know what a Salary Cap is?

[Lost In Translation]

football must return to its roots,players play for their team and their believes and not for the money.Football got business thing,sold out at the communist system.Of course some teams have left a little behind and didnt yet become business!Football is an entertainment,is a LOVE fir some people.Those huge salary caps should dissapear and let football return to its roots.We dont want a sell out major team,we want a team representing us(as fans) and be near us.So yes i am next to my team as long as it isnt transformed to a modern bussines and i am jumping and hugging every time my soccer teams scores or crying like little babies when we lose.
AGAINST MODERN FOOTBALL

Fuserg9:star:
Good point. However, salary caps are to prevent overspending, Fuserg. I don't think any of the major European leagues have salary caps. It's just according to how much money you make and how many Russians, Saudis, and Americans you have backing you.

However, I do think football shouldn't be so much of a business as it is entertainment. However, the collapse of the sports industry is the loss of billions worldwide. You can't say that the athletes haven't worked hard to make it big. It's the owner's fault that they are so desperate to sign a big player (*cough*RealMadrid*cough*). Oh, and screw the presidents of the governing bodies of sports. They're uber-biased people, just look at Sepp Blatter and Michel Platini.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Seeing as how we're talking about major corporations which oftentimes hold regional monopolies, it really shouldn't come as a surprise that wealth centralizes in such a way.

[Killfacer]

sepp blatter deserves to be shot and his entire family wiped from existance,

[Lost In Translation]

sepp blatter deserves to be shot and his entire family wiped from existance,
I don't think we should take it that far....He's an ass, but that's about it. Resign from his post, sure, but to kill him??!!

[Killfacer]

it's the only way to trully kill his shit ideas. Where was his type when Real Madrid won like 30 Champions Leagues in a row? Now an English team wins it twice they throw a paddy. He should be killed and his body burnt to get rid of the evidence he ever existed. Also burn his house, birth certificate and any other thing he has. Then shoot anyone who likes him.

Also i don't buy into this whole Fuserg, save "real" soccer. First of all Fuserg is a Cypriot, last time i checked most players who play for Cypriot teams are Cypriots? I'm pretty sure APOEL has a majority of players who are from cyprus.

[Lost In Translation]

I doubt the next president of Fifa would be in the mould of Blatter. He's become really obnoxious these days with the Ronaldo crisis. Michel Platini has also become really biased. Turkey was eligible to call up at least one more player in EURO 2008. He refused, but UEFA allowed Germany in EURO 1996 to call up TWO players (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02EEDD1339F933A05755C0A9609582 60). I hate to bring it up, but it disappoints me.

[Killfacer]

do you have much football in canada?

[F9]

sorry i was writing about wage caps,not salary,but again i might be incorrect because i dont know correct the terms in english and my english are not so good.
anyway my point is that football doesnt need money,football just needs love for the team!



Also i don't buy into this whole Fuserg, save "real" soccer. First of all Fuserg is a Cypriot, last time i checked most players who play for Cypriot teams are Cypriots? I'm pretty sure APOERL has a majority of players who are from cyprus.:mad::mad::mad:i cannot even here of that team you just said,the whole of neonazis scums.Cyprus football is not as high as other leagues,our teams fight for the way to uefa and champions league groups,but that plays no matter.First of all if you watch football you would remember the game cyprus VS germany where there was a draw,so the level is not so bad at the cypriot players,and in club thing is even higher due and the foreigners which teams sign.But you say you dissagree with what i previously saied and you say an oppinion on a very different thing?Where goes that the major of players are cypriots(where sadly dont)?What i said is that i dont want modern football,i dont want expensive players,i dont want champions,i dont want an expensive field.All that we want is football returns to its roots,players playing for their team and no for the money,players know where they are,and what team represents.Go and read again my post.And you becoming very irrongant saying that the majority of players are cypriots,and you mean that they are useless,watch football and you might understand what it is.
AGAINST MODERN FOOTBALL

ps:i edited the team you wrote because i cant stand that bluddy team,not even see their name.:mad::mad:
ps2:why do you people continuously call me Fuserg?Why you let the "9" go away?it plays a lot of matter to me,and is a part of my name :(

Fuserg9:star:

[Lost In Translation]

do you have much football in canada?
Unfortunately not. Is it affecting my posts? :blushing::blushing::blushing:

[Killfacer]

no, not at all. The only thing i noticed is that you used the word soccer.

Furserg9 , i was reffering to APOEL, how can you not of heard of the most successful team in cyprus' history?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APOEL_F.C. if you want to know more. i guess it's called something else in greek?

[Lost In Translation]

no, not at all. The only thing i noticed is that you used the word soccer.

Oh crap.

Stupid North American broadcasters. :mad:

[F9]

no, not at all. The only thing i noticed is that you used the word soccer.

Furserg9 , i was reffering to APOEL, how can you not of heard of the most successful team in cyprus' history?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APOEL_F.C. if you want to know more. i guess it's called something else in greek?

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???this shit that you call a team,is far from the most succesfull team in cyprus,the most succesfull is OMONOIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Omonoia)!
You think that i dont know whats going on on my own town?as i said that scumteam you describe as(LOL) for the most successful team,is really the team which got a lot of champions with the referees,the team which was finished last and magically that year the relegation rule dissapeared and they let them continue playing first division,is the team where every week you see at their fans facist and racist logos,neo-nazis,nationalists etc.That team was founded 40 years before OMONOIA and it has only have a couple of trophies more,and thats only because some trophies which OMONOIA get at the start of our playing dont count because we were playing in a divison seperate from the division where righ-wingers made.So apoerl( i know how its their bloody name but i cant even write it) is a bag of right wing shit!Oh and es i HATE them!:mad:

Fuserg9:star:

[Killfacer]

you have both won the league the same amount of times? My knowledge of cypriot football is a bit crap to be honest. I have heard of anorthosis because they played spurs in the eufa cup. I dont know anything about this scandal you speak of, but it sounds like you just dislike APOEL.

edit: ok i just read about the cypriot league, it would appear that you're team is the most successful and interestingly the only team to win the cypriot cup four times in a row. Is that league or F.A?

[F9]

no i dont dislike them i HATE them!its different.
Its not as a scandal but it is well known that the champions were we taken in the league where left-wing teams(yes there is such separation down here) played before 50 years dont count in the total amount of our trophies,but there throphies count from there start even when OMONOIA wasnt on their league.Finally the league where the right-wing teams were playing had become the official thats why we are some trophies behind.
whats F.A?anw its well known(down here) whats going on and who is the biggest team on island!OMONOIA with no doubt!:)and who knows we might face a good team this year in uefa because we build a good team.

Fuserg9:star:

[Killfacer]

Yeah, Anorthesis looked alot better than i had expected and considering they are only (as i understand) the third best team in Cyprus. Omonoia could do well. How many champions league/eufa cup places do you get in Cyprus.

[F9]

1 C.L and 2 uefa,but from the next year we will have three teams to uefa and 1 in C.L

[Lost In Translation]

..and how many of those teams will progress past the qualifying stages??

[F9]

cypriots teams have never been in groups neither C.L or uefa,in third round if we past we would be face huge teams like arsenal,sevilla,valencia and other big teams!:closedeyes:

[Killfacer]

<P>well i shall watch out for and support Omonoia if i see them play (unless they play arsenal). Whats this about APOEL being a fascist club?</P>

[F9]

the club isnt fascist(at this moment) but clearly nationalists.But their fans have got it one step further and you can see in their matches neo-nazi flags,people continuously wave to hitler etc.If you know the situation in Lazio,its about the same thing.
i would give you some pictures but i cant find them,and i am too bored to start searcing to the internet.
If you would like some more information pm me or write it on my profile because i thing we get waaaaaay offtopic.

Fuserg9:star:

[Shekky Shabazz]

do you cappies think that Wage caps are unfair and that sportsmen/women have the right, in a free nation, to earn what they can and have as higher wages as afforded to them, and that the state should not interfere in such matters.

when answering think that C.Ronaldo can earn in a week what my dad earns in about 10 years, and that Ronaldo plays a game for his living whereas my Dad works shifts.

How about you start by explaining why you think someone shouldn't be able to?

[F9]

shouldnt be able to,what?:confused:I didnt understand what you are asking!

Fuserg9:star:

[Shekky Shabazz]

Why shouldn't someone be able to "earn what they can"?

[F9]

football is not(basically shouldnt be)a job,is an entertainment i dont know how really express it but there shouldnt be money on football(and everywhere else basic).football is to go see your team,see there play,have fun.Now they sell out the fans and the only thing that they care are trophies.Trophies are not bad,but you cant sell your fans and your ideas to get trophies.Football should become what was in the past,waaaay back,an entertainment where players play for their team and the shirt and emlem which they wear and not for the money a millionaire is going to give them.
You see for us(football fans) it is an honor just for the players to wear our teams shirt,but they disgrace it by wanting money to do something which is like "religion"(not really correct term but couldn find other) to our fans!
So fuck the money and start playing for the team!

Fuserg9:star:

[Shekky Shabazz]

So basically you are saying "because I don't like it" is the reason an athlete shouldn't be able to earn what he can? I was hoping for something more.

[Lost In Translation]

First of all, we must establish what a player's worth is. For that, we have to look at how he/she performs, and what the demand for the player is (a bit cliched, but you know what I mean). At the moment, top flight players earn in the hundreds of thousands, but at the cost of undying fans (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/05/28/sfntix128.xml)

Furthermore, sports teams (generally football teams in Europe) are backed by extremely wealthy owners, who stop at nothing to bring the best players into their club. This is disregarding the immense amount of debt that they are facing (again, I use the premier league as an example because of their accessible data http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7423254.stm). However, they seem to buy more and more players like there was nothing to be afraid of (for some, that's true).

However, it's not just the immense amount of spending that worries fans like myself and fuserg9, it's the player's attitudes. They get paid millions, yet they are still unloyal to their clubs (look at C.Ronaldo). That is what angers the fans more.

Of course, jealousy plays into it as well, because the ordinary citizen works hard, but doesn't make $140,000 a week like some top football players do.

In conclusion, it's not because we don't like it, so the athlete can't earn what he can, it's because the more he earns, the more a team wants him, the more they go into debt, and the more expensive ticket prices are and other affiliated merchandise are.

[Shekky Shabazz]

First of all, we must establish what a player's worth is. For that, we have to look at how he/she performs, and what the demand for the player is (a bit cliched, but you know what I mean). At the moment, top flight players earn in the hundreds of thousands, but at the cost of undying fans ( removed

Furthermore, sports teams (generally football teams in Europe) are backed by extremely wealthy owners, who stop at nothing to bring the best players into their club. This is disregarding the immense amount of debt that they are facing (again, I use the premier league as an example because of their accessible data removed). However, they seem to buy more and more players like there was nothing to be afraid of (for some, that's true).

I'm not familiar with European football, so I couldn't comment on the specifics here. But I don't see any problem with anything you said.



However, it's not just the immense amount of spending that worries fans like myself and fuserg9, it's the player's attitudes. They get paid millions, yet they are still unloyal to their clubs (look at C.Ronaldo). That is what angers the fans more.


I like the NBA, and this certainly applies. The most recent example of this (Elton Brand) illustrates it on every level, from the top down. But so what? How does the fans' emotions create a situation where the owners of the teams should be compelled by the state to change their decisions?

The most obvious answer to this is stop supporting these teams that are making decisions you disagree with.



Of course, jealousy plays into it as well, because the ordinary citizen works hard, but doesn't make $140,000 a week like some top football players do.


I agree. Still not a reason for state interference tho



In conclusion, it's not because we don't like it, so the athlete can't earn what he can, it's because the more he earns, the more a team wants him, the more they go into debt, and the more expensive ticket prices are and other affiliated merchandise are.

Well, yeah, I guess so. What exactly are your thoughts about the OP then? Should the state interfere to control the wages of athletes?

[Lost In Translation]

The state, if you mean the governing body of the sport, has the right to control lucrative spending. Some teams are not as profitable as other teams, but at the same time, they're just as ambitious. To prevent them from going into bankruptcy, the governing body could impose a salary cap on the league, I guess.

But the government has little say on how owners run their clubs, unless match-fixing and other illegal actions are performed.

Personally, I like a little lucrative spending to spice an otherwise bland sport like hockey up. However, if lucrative spending means the end of a franchise, then I don't think it's worth it. After all, the league should go for continuity first, then domination, IMO.


EDIT: But sometimes, we need to crack down on teams with a history of debt and whatnot, for the sake of the sport. If the team can afford to pay a player large amounts of money, I have no objections. However, they had better be able to afford it, cuz I'm not going to pay for it when they raise ticket prices.

[Shekky Shabazz]

The state, if you mean the governing body of the sport, has the right to control lucrative spending. Some teams are not as profitable as other teams, but at the same time, they're just as ambitious. To prevent them from going into bankruptcy, the governing body could impose a salary cap on the league, I guess.

The OP was asking if the state should interfere, I assumed that to mean the government of the country the team is located in. If OP meant a particular league that had contracts with all the teams, that certainly changes things, though not entirely as I'll allude to in a second.

I don't necessarily have a problem with salary caps imposed by a league, agreed to by all the teams. Although I don't believe that those restrictions always produce the results the league envisions, namely more competition from smaller markets. Theres lots of examples of excellent small market teams competing at the highest level as well as highly inefficient big budget teams stinking the joint up. I'd assume this is the same for football in Europe?



But the government has little say on how owners run their clubs, unless match-fixing and other illegal actions are performed.


Not exactly. Most (if not all) stadiums are financed with public money, which is essentially creating a monopoly within a given sport. Instead of using investment capital from private investors that has been determined to provide a sufficient return, funds from taxpayers are given out through those that possess political connections. So instead of the most qualified and able to operate a franchise, those who can persuade the state to part with their funds the best gets a team.

This also makes it that much more diffucult for a competitor to start their own league/team. Which, of course, only helps those who are politically connected, and, of course, hurts everyone else. Namely the fans, who are denied a fair choice and have to accept their incompetent team.



Personally, I like a little lucrative spending to spice an otherwise bland sport like hockey up. However, if lucrative spending means the end of a franchise, then I don't think it's worth it. After all, the league should go for continuity first, then domination, IMO.


As a casual RedWings fan, I know what you mean. :D



EDIT: But sometimes, we need to crack down on teams with a history of debt and whatnot, for the sake of the sport. If the team can afford to pay a player large amounts of money, I have no objections. However, they had better be able to afford it, cuz I'm not going to pay for it when they raise ticket prices.

I agree.

[Lost In Translation]

The OP was asking if the state should interfere, I assumed that to mean the government of the country the team is located in. If OP meant a particular league that had contracts with all the teams, that certainly changes things, though not entirely as I'll allude to in a second.
Right, which is why I argued for both cases.


I don't necessarily have a problem with salary caps imposed by a league, agreed to by all the teams. Although I don't believe that those restrictions always produce the results the league envisions, namely more competition from smaller markets. Theres lots of examples of excellent small market teams competing at the highest level as well as highly inefficient big budget teams stinking the joint up. I'd assume this is the same for football in Europe?
Yes, I would have to agree that sometimes restrictions aren't good for competition. However, if you have seen the feud between Kevin Lowe (GM of the Edmonton Oilers) and Brian Burke (GM of the Anaheim Ducks), it's great for business. Free Agency is a great case where competition is at its peak in the NHL and the NBA (business-wise). The big difference in the administration of NBA and NHL is the NHL has a no business sense dumbass in Gary Bettman.

Yes, there have been cases of the cinderella teams in European football, but generally, if you have a rich owner with money to burn, your team will have good success.



Not exactly. Most (if not all) stadiums are financed with public money, which is essentially creating a monopoly within a given sport. Instead of using investment capital from private investors that has been determined to provide a sufficient return, funds from taxpayers are given out through those that possess political connections. So instead of the most qualified and able to operate a franchise, those who can persuade the state to part with their funds the best gets a team.

But those who have great connections also need great people behind them to make the team work. Even if you're unsuccessful in establishing a franchise, you might be business saavy enough to catch their attention (those this happens rarely).

However, if you have huge amounts of money, you could establish a franchise anyways, and bribe those congress people later :D:D:D. Otherwise, I have to agree with you.


This also makes it that much more diffucult for a competitor to start their own league/team. Which, of course, only helps those who are politically connected, and, of course, hurts everyone else. Namely the fans, who are denied a fair choice and have to accept their incompetent team.
But then if you're going to establish a team, are you just going to build it, and let everybody else do the work? When it comes time to sell it, you've got to make the team look good, and you would want success for your team so you can milk more money out of it.



As a casual RedWings fan, I know what you mean. :D
Damn, the Red Wings are good. Consistent and dominating. I live in Vancouver, and the Canucks suck.


I agree.
Glad to know that :)

[Devrim]

I think that the important question about the salary cap is not whether Ronaldo earns too much money, but whether it makes leagues more competitive. Evidence suggests that it does.

The English Premier League since its inception has had four champions (one of them winning only once), La Liga five, and Serie A also five. Our league in Turkey only three (only four in its history)

Superbowl in the same period has had twelve.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Turkey was eligible to call up at least one more player in EURO 2008. He [Blatter] refused,

Actually Terim refused to call up additional players.

Devrim

[Holden Caulfield]

I think that the important question about the salary cap is not whether Ronaldo earns too much money, but whether it makes leagues more competitive. Evidence suggests that it does.

The English Premier League since its inception has had four champions (one of them winning only once), La Liga five, and Serie A also five. Our league in Turkey only three (only four in its history)

Superbowl in the same period has had twelve.

Devrim

that is the best point i have read all thread, :cool:

[lvl100]

football is not(basically shouldnt be)a job,is an entertainment i dont know how really express it but there shouldnt be money on football(and everywhere else basic)

Fuserg9:star:

Since when entrataiment means fun and joy for everyone ?

How about : entertainment is that process where the extremly skilled performers work really hard for years in order to a lazy ass can sit on his couch/stadium chair and be entertained for 90 minutes.




Football should become what was in the past,waaaay back,an entertainment where players play for their team Waaaay back (like in `20s) football sucked monkey balls comparing to today`s performances. And the evolution was possible only due to the system your cussing right now. (international teams harvesting the "cream of the top" players, high motivational wages etc etc"

[RevMARKSman]

I do agree with Devrim entirely. It would be best for a league to impose some kind of NFL-type team salary cap to prevent one or two teams (like the Yankees in MLB) from amassing all the good players. This, and other parity-oriented measures like the reverse-record-order draft, help competition so it's difficult to create a dynasty or a perpetual doormat.

However, at least in the context of American football, individual salary caps are probably not a good idea. In theory, a truly great player would get offers from teams roughly corresponding with their salary cap room (i.e. the fewer star players the team already has, the bigger their offer will be and the more likely the player will sign). That also serves to even the playing field.

Also, at least in American football, season- or career-ending injuries are very common, especially at the "skill positions" that are the most visible and tend to make the most money. This may be true in regular football as well.

I'm not saying the massive salaries are entirely justified, but there are a few reasons besides supply-demand.


In an article for ESPN: The Magazine, Pro Bowl running back Edgerrin James told his story of a game against Detroit on October 29, 2000. Then-coach Jim Mora, with the Colts ahead, told James to fall down and run out the clock. But as James wrote, he decided to disobey Mora. James stated in the story: "I've got too many incentive clauses in my contract for that. Every yard is money, man. So I started laughing in the huddle when I heard what coach wanted. And then I kept running past that first-down marker unitl I had my touchdown. And I heard a cash register ringing the whole damn way, too. Coach was mad as a mother, but how mad can your coach really be when you score a touchdown for him? I know the haters think that's selfish, and I understand that. But I've got a contract that forces me to be selfish. That's why I want to renegotiate. You want to change my attitude? Then change my contract. Because I lost $3.875 million in incentives last season when my knee exploded, and the haters weren't crying for me then."

Mora claims that James's version of what happened during that game is completely false. Yet james's vitriolic, possibly exaggerated, words illustrate how the specter of crippling injuries transforms the attitude of some players. They want to get as much money as they can, as quickly as they can, because an NFL player never knows when his situation will suddenly resemble that of [Sean] Guthrie or James himself, who missed an entire season with a busted knee, or the players who have been permanently paralyzed. Or [?] Stringer. James also wrote: "Let the haters get down there in goal-line situations and feel what I have to feel to make my money, and then we can talk about selfish. Look at my hands, man. I dislocate my fingers during a play, and I pop them back into place on the field - even though theya re all messed up, like spaghetti - because I need to stay in the game every play....Look at these players who can barely walk when they're done playing. That's gonna be me, so I've got to squeeze everything I can out of this now. We're not guaranteed the money in our contracts like basketball and baseball players are. I ain't hating on nobody in baseball, but I know I'm speaking for every NFL player when I say it ain't right the best baseball player [Alex Rodriguez] gets $252 million and our best player, Marshall Faulk, just signed for $200 million less than that. Ain't no crazy 300-pounders trying to break no baseball player's legs."

[Killfacer]

but then the quality of football would go down. The champions league would no longer be as good. Plus you cant do that, there are thousands of teams in europe. There is a whole pyramid system in England which goes right down to semi proffesional. So you are either suggesting a tiered system which would worsen the problem or you are suggesting that Alton Town should have a wage cap of Manchester United?

[Devrim]

but then the quality of football would go down. The champions league would no longer be as good. Plus you cant do that, there are thousands of teams in europe. There is a whole pyramid system in England which goes right down to semi proffesional. So you are either suggesting a tiered system which would worsen the problem or you are suggesting that Alton Town should have a wage cap of Manchester United?

I am not suggesting it. I am merely saying that it could lead to a more competitive league. There are of course other factors.

Devrim

[Killfacer]

so what are you suggesting?

p.s i was talking to Revsmarksman.

[RevMARKSman]

Look, I don't know how European football works. I was just making a general statement of what might make it more competitive based on what I've seen.

[Killfacer]

yes and i was pointing out that what you said would not work.

[F9]

Since when entrataiment means fun and joy for everyone ?

How about : entertainment is that process where the extremly skilled performers work really hard for years in order to a lazy ass can sit on his couch/stadium chair and be entertained for 90 minutes.

first of all we never sit at the stadium and the seats:)only before the match starts and during half-time and that not always!:lol:
what do you mean?that only those who are skilled and talented have fun?
he does this(playing football) because he likes it.I would be honor for most of us(fans) just to play for 1 second with our team.So i expect for those who wear the teams shirt honor it as well.If he dont like whats he is doing then he will stop,whats the real argument?




Waaaay back (like in `20s) football sucked monkey balls comparing to today`s performances. And the evolution was possible only due to the system your cussing right now. (international teams harvesting the "cream of the top" players, high motivational wages etc etc"

We dont want to return to old balls and old whatever else.We want to go back to the age where players dont play for their money but play for their team.

Fuserg9:star:

[RGacky3]

I'm not sure if any Capitalist here supports wage caps, but if they do, that is one of the most contradictory ideas in existance.

Wage caps is only an issue in a Capitalist society, in a Socialist society its a non-issue, because the whole economic/social system is different.

[Robert]

Not caps in private industry, but do support progressive taxation. It has been as high as 92% at the margins in the USA (92% on every dollar you earn over $400,000). Much lower now.

[Lost In Translation]

I do agree with Devrim entirely. It would be best for a league to impose some kind of NFL-type team salary cap to prevent one or two teams (like the Yankees in MLB) from amassing all the good players. This, and other parity-oriented measures like the reverse-record-order draft, help competition so it's difficult to create a dynasty or a perpetual doormat.

But though the Yankees field all-stars every game, it doesn't guarantee that they are winners. If you're, say, Manchester United, facing Reading. The bookies will definitely pick Man U. However, the fact that everybody has eyes on Man U will make it a more entertaining game to watch because Reading will field their best 11, and they want to upset Man U. If Man U win a lopsided one, the neutral fans and man u fans would think it was a great game because of all the scoring. If it's a tie, it would prove that it was a really competitive game, with no team giving any space for the other team. If Reading wins, then the upset makes it all the better for Reading fans.

[Shekky Shabazz]

I'm not sure if any Capitalist here supports wage caps, but if they do, that is one of the most contradictory ideas in existance.

I don't necessarily support them, but I don't have a problem with them either. If all the teams in a particular league agree to it, whats the big deal?

[RevMARKSman]

But though the Yankees field all-stars every game, it doesn't guarantee that they are winners. If you're, say, Manchester United, facing Reading. The bookies will definitely pick Man U. However, the fact that everybody has eyes on Man U will make it a more entertaining game to watch because Reading will field their best 11, and they want to upset Man U. If Man U win a lopsided one, the neutral fans and man u fans would think it was a great game because of all the scoring. If it's a tie, it would prove that it was a really competitive game, with no team giving any space for the other team. If Reading wins, then the upset makes it all the better for Reading fans.

That would be great if there were a real chance of a Reading win or a tie. You can have great games without one team being heavily favored, and there's no reason that one team can't be a cut above the rest. But a salary cap prevents that team from snowballing into a dynasty, which is only ever a good thing if you're a fan of that team.

Say you have two good teams facing each other. The bookies are split. Both teams field their best 11 (why wouldn't anyone?) If Team A/Team B wins a lopsided one, the Team A/Team B fans will think it was a great game because of all the scoring. If it's close or a tie, it would prove that it was a really competitive game.

^ What's so bad about that?


yes and i was pointing out that what you said would not work.

Please tell me why, then, and actually explain instead of just making assertions.

[Killfacer]

i did explain it. Read.

"Plus you cant do that, there are thousands of teams in europe. There is a whole pyramid system in England which goes right down to semi proffesional. So you are either suggesting a tiered system which would worsen the problem or you are suggesting that Alton Town should have a wage cap of Manchester United?"

[RevMARKSman]

I am making recommendations for individual associations or leagues, not for the governments of these countries to make sweeping legislation.

Explain how giving Manchester United and Alton Town the same wage cap would be a bad thing, and explain how a tiered system would worsen the problem if teams in different tiers never played each other.

[Killfacer]

Ok firstly, the champions league would be a pointless waste of time.

It would not make a difference, alton would not be able to fuffil the wage cap. Also big players demand big money and dont want to play in say Aldershot towns "The Rec" with a capacity of 10 men and a sheep.

[Lost In Translation]

Explain how giving Manchester United and Alton Town the same wage cap would be a bad thing, and explain how a tiered system would worsen the problem if teams in different tiers never played each other.

Alton Town is an extremely small club. Their stadium has a seating capacity of 120 people. You cannot compare that to Manchester United, whose stadium, Old Trafford, has a seating capacity of 76,212. Like Killfacer said, Alton Town would have a very difficult time fufilling the cap, because of its very unappealing size.

RevMARKSman, can you explain the Tier system to me? I'm not sure what you're talking about :blushing:

[RevMARKSman]

Ok firstly, the champions league would be a pointless waste of time.

It would not make a difference, alton would not be able to fuffil the wage cap. Also big players demand big money and dont want to play in say Aldershot towns "The Rec" with a capacity of 10 men and a sheep.

Okay, explain to me what the champions' league is and why it would be a waste of time.

You could also cut Manchester U's salary cap and force some of their players to take a cut or go somewhere else - say somewhere with more cap room. That would bring better players to smaller teams, which would then do better. Of course this only works if these players can bring enough fans with them (or enough fans are drawn in as a result) to pay the large salary and also pay for a stadium upgrade.


Alton Town is an extremely small club. Their stadium has a seating capacity of 120 people. You cannot compare that to Manchester United, whose stadium, Old Trafford, has a seating capacity of 76,212. Like Killfacer said, Alton Town would have a very difficult time fufilling the cap, because of its very unappealing size.

RevMARKSman, can you explain the Tier system to me? I'm not sure what you're talking aboutIf Alton Town has one owner, that person can move the team to a larger market with more fans. That would bring in the revenue necessary to pay the big shots that would come in from teams like Manchester United.

If it's impossible to move teams from tiny towns to larger ones, well you're pretty much screwed and there's no solution.

I'm not sure what Killfacer means by the tier system but I assume it's along the lines of dividing teams by market size/total salary and placing them into large groups, where teams within a group play each other.

[Lost In Translation]

I'm not sure what Killfacer means by the tier system but I assume it's along the lines of dividing teams by market size/total salary and placing them into large groups, where teams within a group play each other.
Um...isn't that essentially what is happening right now in European Football?

[Devrim]

Of course this only works if these players can bring enough fans with them (or enough fans are drawn in as a result) to pay the large salary and also pay for a stadium upgrade.

I don't think you really understand this do you. Players don't take fans with them.


If Alton Town has one owner, that person can move the team to a larger market with more fans. That would bring in the revenue necessary to pay the big shots that would come in from teams like Manchester United.

You really don't understand this, do you?

Devrim

[Killfacer]

Firstly what i meant by teir system is that the only way you could enforce fairly a salary cap would be by teiring the different clubs' wage caps on the amount of money they made or their attendances. This would keep the tiny clubs right at the bottom and they would have no chance of getting high. Nottingham forest would never have been able to reach the heights they did and it would make it even harder for smaller teams.

Like Devrim said, you really dont understand do you.

[RevMARKSman]

I don't think you really understand this do you. Players don't take fans with them.Sometimes they do. People wouldn't necessarily move, but new fans would be drawn in to a team with a star player.


You really don't understand this, do you?If you think I'm wrong, explain. I'm not intimately familiar with the workings of European football, but just saying "you're wrong" doesn't cut it in any situation.


Like Devrim said, you really dont understand do you.Again, it would really help if you would actually explain your objections instead of just throwing out "tier system" like you did in your first post.

[Devrim]

If you think I'm wrong, explain. I'm not intimately familiar with the workings of European football, but just saying "you're wrong" doesn't cut it in any situation.

RevMARKSman, I am sorry if I came across as a bit off hand. The point is though that I don't know a lot about ballet. That is OK as I don't comment on it either. You are commenting on something that you seem to know very little about, and it makes it difficult to discuss it.

European soccer uses a very different system than the main US sports. In the US their are franchises, salary caps, drafts, and income pooling on merchandise. Effectively the clubs are operating sort of like a cartel.

The situation in Europe is very different. Every club is fighting for itself, and it is a very cut-throat business.

The US system does seem to produce a wider spread of winners. However, it is at the expense of some things that are seen as very important by European football fans such as promotion and relegation, and things that would horrify us like the franchise system.

Devrim

[Demogorgon]

How does the Franchise system work in American Sports?

I have never been able to get my head around the complexity of that kind of system.

[RevMARKSman]

All right, now I know that it's nothing like the franchise system, and so my comments about perhaps using some of the same procedures as in American sports wouldn't work.

However, the thread title is "Wages caps in sports?" - so there's no reason why I cannot comment on things that have seemed to work in the American franchise system. Of course I applied them to the European system in ignorance of how it works, and assuming that it was somewhat like the American system, but when Killfacer made a bunch of assertions without posting his actual reasoning, I got aggressive in my (wrong) ideas because it didn't seem as though he knew what he was talking about either.

Demogorgon: Basically, in the franchise system, each team is a separate company, but the league acts as the executive administration over a kind of cartel, like Devrim said. The teams are not clubs tied to a particular city or name. The owner of the team may decide to move his team to another city, change the name, and hire/fire personnel (although specialists are usually hired to manage coaches, players, and finance). The league commissioner decides on league policies and punitive actions. A large amount of income is shared, excluding non-league-affiliated revenue such as concessions.

[Killfacer]

i posted that you were wrong, i posted why you were wrong. You got annoyed because you were wrong.

[Lost In Translation]

All right, now I know that it's nothing like the franchise system, and so my comments about perhaps using some of the same procedures as in American sports wouldn't work.

However, the thread title is "Wages caps in sports?" - so there's no reason why I cannot comment on things that have seemed to work in the American franchise system. Of course I applied them to the European system in ignorance of how it works, and assuming that it was somewhat like the American system, but when Killfacer made a bunch of assertions without posting his actual reasoning, I got aggressive in my (wrong) ideas because it didn't seem as though he knew what he was talking about either.

Yes, I realize that the thread title would mean that every sport can be discussed. However, as we were on a roll with European football, it would make more sense to continue on that route :D.

However, should there be a minimum salary cap as well, like the NHL does? It seems to encourage more spending, instead of sitting there with money to blow.

[pusher robot]

How does the Franchise system work in American Sports?

I have never been able to get my head around the complexity of that kind of system.

It's not very complicated, really. You have the league, which is simply a company that sets up venues, promotions, rules standards, playing schedules, etc. The key point here is that for any league event, the league ultimately controls everything. In order to have a variety of competitors, the league will sell (or give away) franchises to other private organizations or individuals. These franchises entitle the franchisee to compete in league events and keep a large portion of the revenues. The league, in return, gets a cut of all the revenues and gets to set all the rules. As a result, the rules tend to favor what's best for the league, such as competitive teams and fan satisfaction.

[534634634265]

so, how does the NFL keep from going the way of the XFL?

[pusher robot]

so, how does the NFL keep from going the way of the XFL?

The same way that McDonald's keeps from going the way of Big Boy: by doing everything they can to deliver to the best sporting events to the most people. XFL got so little traction because the NFL does a very good job at running a league. Other leagues that weren't run as well do face significant challenges from time to time, e.g. the splintering of the IRL into CART.

[Shekky Shabazz]

pusher, do you endorse the public financing of arenas/stadiums and other political involvement in sporting events?

[pusher robot]

pusher, do you endorse the public financing of arenas/stadiums and other political involvement in sporting events?

As a general rule, no. Ultimately, most such ventures simply end up funneling money from sports fans and taxpayers to franchise owners. On the other hand, if a local government can make some kind of financing arrangement that doesn't result in forcing people to pay for a stadium who don't want the stadium, it's not a very big deal.

[Shekky Shabazz]

On the other hand, if a local government can make some kind of financing arrangement that doesn't result in forcing people to pay for a stadium who don't want the stadium, it's not a very big deal.

What kind of arrangement are you refering to? How would this local government differentiate these funds amongst those who desire this financing and those who do not?

[pusher robot]

What kind of arrangement are you refering to? How would this local government differentiate these funds amongst those who desire this financing and those who do not?

Things like tax increment financing are at least technically revenue-neutral. Who receives the financing is, like every other issue of government, a matter of politics.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

when answering think that C.Ronaldo can earn in a week what my dad earns in about 10 years, and that Ronaldo plays a game for his living whereas my Dad works shifts.

Has your dad ever paid money to see a sporting event? even just watched one on TV?

If so, he's among the billions of wage-earners who line up to support this system. And unlike the sportstars, I doubt there are 10,000+ people (mostly workers) willing to pay to go see him day in and day out.

*I'm not saying this is right. I'm simply saying it's a demand thing. If you're more loyal to your class than you're team, I'd suggest stop supporting these multi-millionaires and boycott. That said, I won't.

[Shekky Shabazz]

Things like tax increment financing are at least technically revenue-neutral. Who receives the financing is, like every other issue of government, a matter of politics.

TIF certainly does not differentiate between those wanting to contribute to a stadium and those who do not. In most cases, it will actually INCREASE the tax burden of a particular area due to the increased public services needed in the immediate surrounding areas of the project receiving the TIF. The increase in demand for these services is rarely factored into the financing and consists mainly of services ONLY the government will provide (water supply, sewage, etc). Also, TIF projects invoke eminent domain in many cases, which leads to an entirely new set of problems.

As for who receives these favors being a matter of politics, well, yeah. You are against this right?

[pusher robot]

You are against this right?

Against what? Politics?

[Shekky Shabazz]

Against what? Politics?



As a general rule, no. Ultimately, most such ventures simply end up funneling money from sports fans and taxpayers to franchise owners. On the other hand, if a local government can make some kind of financing arrangement that doesn't result in forcing people to pay for a stadium who don't want the stadium, it's not a very big deal.


I guess I'm confused about what you have in mind besides TIFs. How is ANY government intervention going to seperate those who support these projects and those who do not?

[pusher robot]

I guess I'm confused about what you have in mind besides TIFs. How is ANY government intervention going to seperate those who support these projects and those who do not?

But not all government intervention demands those who oppose to sacrifice for the sake of those who promote. TIF's are one theoretical way but there are others. Think outside of the box.

[Shekky Shabazz]

But not all government intervention demands those who oppose to sacrifice for the sake of those who promote. TIF's are one theoretical way but there are others. Think outside of the box.

Why don't you just tell me instead of suggesting a thought exercise? I already explained why TIFs do not qualify