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antieverything
6th January 2003, 19:11
I've noticed a lot of Cappies talking about how "Reagan was right" or how Reagan saved the economy or Supply Side Economics are simply common sense. Here is an interesting article about the origins of the myth and some links showing what really happened during the Reagan years.
[hr]THE RISE OF SUPPLY-SIDE ECONOMICS

The central concept of supply-side economics is that tax cuts cause economic growth. Tax cuts allow entrepreneurs to invest their tax savings, which creates higher productivity, jobs and profits. This, ironically, allows the entrepreneur and his new workers to pay even more taxes, even at lower rates.

The supply-side idea is a simple one, and makes a popular political message. However, it is interesting to note that mainstream economists -- even conservative ones -- almost universally reject supply-side theory. In the early 80s, the influential and multi-partisan American Economics Association had 18,000 members. Only 12 called themselves supply-side economists.1 In American universities, there is no major department that could be called "supply-side," and there is no supply-side economist at any major department.2 This is significant, because academia in the 70s was dominated by conservative economic theory, and conservative economists normally welcome any ideas that make the case against government intervention. The fact that they scrutinized supply-side theory and rejected it wholesale gives eloquent testimony to the theory's bankruptcy. When candidate George Bush called it "voodoo economics" in the 1980 presidential campaign, he was doing so with the full backing of America's economic community.

Many people are surprised to learn that "conservative" does not necessarily equate to "supply-side" economics. The difference lies in spending. Mainstream conservative economists generally believe that tax cuts should be accompanied by spending cuts -- that is, fiscal responsibility. Supply-side economists believe that taxes should be cut -- period. Spending cuts and deficits, they believe, are not important considerations. The 1980 supply-siders claimed that the growth resulting from tax cuts would be so great, and the total tax collections increased so much, that America would simply outgrow its deficits. This did not happen, of course. Growth in the 80s was no greater than growth in the 70s, as the statistics here will show. But the national debt nearly tripled under Reagan. Who deserved blame for this is a controversy that continues to this day.

Supply-siders point out that their theories are not wrong simply because academia rejects them. This would be falling for the "argument from authority" fallacy. After all, it was once a scientific consensus that the earth was flat. Besides, scientific revolutions have always started out as minority opinions, which have often faced hostility from the consensus of the time. Although these are worthy points, they are not conclusive arguments against the value of scientific consensus. These are, after all, our best and brightest scholars, whose day jobs are to analyze these issues. Their theories should be among the first we consider. It does not mean that they are correct, of course, but more often than not their information is better, and their theories more coherent, than the average person's.

Who were the 1980 supply-siders? The following is my summary of Paul Krugman, one of the world's top economists, who gives an excellent account of their rise in his book, Peddling Prosperity. The supply-siders were what many have called "cranks," or people who stand outside the scientific mainstream and hurl accusations of basic stupidity and corruption at the entire scientific community. Cranks are people who are cut off from their academic colleagues, who neither argue before scientific conferences nor write for peer-reviewed journals. Instead, they speak before groups they themselves organize, and write for publications they themselves edit.

An unusually high percentage of supply-siders were not economists at all, but journalists with no formal training. Robert Bartley, who has run the editorial pages of The Wall Street Journal for nearly 25 years, was perhaps the movement's greatest spokesman. (His contempt for his critics can be seen in one of his chapters on the Reagan Years, entitled: "What You Learned If You Were Awake.") Other journalists included Jude Wanniski and Irving Kristol. Crusading in their national publications, they were able to reach a much wider and more popular audience than most economists could. Of course, journalists are normally reporters of stories, not creators of theories. You would expect them to report the latest cure for cancer -- but not claim that they had discovered such a cure themselves. This is common sense in most fields like biology and physics, but, for some reason, it is a line that many journalists like Bartley and Wanniski frequently cross when it comes to economics.

The movement did have a few intellectuals, but even here, its professors were far from the mainstream. Arthur Laffer has a Ph.D. in economics, but he has contributed little to scientific conferences or peer-reviewed journals, instead playing to crowds on the lecture circuit and writing for popular publications. He is famous for the Laffer Curve, which purports to show that productivity declines as taxation increases. Most economists agree that the general principle behind the Laffer Curve is correct, but widely disagree on how much taxation is necessary before productivity starts declining. Laffer believed that the effects of taxation were so heavy that cutting them would significantly boost productivity, thereby outgrowing any deficits caused by the tax cuts. Again, this prediction proved false.

Another supply-side economist was Paul Craig Roberts, a Congressional staffer for quarterback-turned-Congressman Jack Kemp. Another was Martin Anderson, who, stung by academia's refusal to hire supply-side economists, would go on to write a bitter tirade against academia in a book entitled Impostors in the Temple.

The movement has always claimed, however, that world-famous trade economist Robert Mundell was the father of supply-side theory. Although Mundell has never discouraged this impression, there is little evidence that it is true. Some of his beliefs -- for example, on the causes of the Great Depression -- go against the very fundamentals of supply-side theory. Mundell established his international reputation early in his career, but over the years his behavior has become increasingly bizarre and eccentric. He long ago dropped out of the academic circuit, and now accuses his former colleagues of "sheer quackery." But he remains more of a mascot than an intellectual founder of the movement.

So where did the supply-side ideas actually come from? From Laffer and Bartley, developed over a series of dinner conversations at Michael 1, a famous restaurant near Wall Street. It was here, scribbling on napkins, that Wanniski showed Bartley the magical effects of tax cuts. Krugman writes: "There it was that [Bartley] and Laffer discovered that Keynesian economics was logically inconsistent - an insight that had eluded [Nobel laureate] Paul Samuelson and a few thousand other people over the course of hundreds of academic conferences. They also discovered that Milton Friedman was wrong in believing that monetary policy could have important effects on the economy - an insight that had similarly eluded [Nobel laureates] Friedman, Lucas and the faculty of the University of Chicago over a generation of notoriously brutal conferences. And the results of these deep thoughts over dinner were for the most part published -- surprise -- on the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal, or in Kristol's Public Interest."3

Why Reagan by-passed thousands of qualified conservative economists for the council of a few supply-siders is a mystery. Perhaps the most likely reason was practical: the supply-siders told Reagan what he wanted to hear. To understand why, we should devote a paragraph to the economic problems that Reagan faced in 1980.

Until the 60s, there had been a tradeoff between inflation and unemployment. Government could achieve low unemployment by accepting high inflation; or it could achieve low inflation by accepting high unemployment. Earlier presidents had opted for low unemployment, which the Federal Reserve accomplished by expanding the money supply, thus giving people more money to spend. Extra spending means extra jobs. However, Milton Friedman and others pointed out that business people would eventually come to expect these inflationary increases, and they would simply compensate for them by raising their prices by the anticipated amount. This would not only negate the job-creating effect that more money in circulation would bring, but also make inflation worse. Eventually, they predicted, inflation would shoot up and then so would unemployment, breaking the tradeoff between them, and forming a twin monster that Paul Samuelson dubbed "stagflation." And, true enough, this is precisely what happened in the 70s.

Economists in the late 70s were at a loss for a cure. To fight high inflation, governments traditionally raise interest rates and cut government spending. To fight high unemployment, they do the opposite. Thus, fighting one dragon would only make the other worse. But the supply-siders told Reagan they had a solution. The Laffer Curve purported to show that tax cuts would actually increase tax collections. This meant that government could spend generously in an effort to curb unemployment, without requiring the burdensome taxes to pay for it. That was the first selling point.

The second selling point was Mundell's. Most economists believe that government spending and interest rates can only be used together, in tandem, to slay either one dragon or the other. But Mundell argued that they could be split up: government could spend generously to fight unemployment, and raise interest rates to fight inflation. Hedrick Smith writes: "...Mundell's argument was music to Reagan. A few advisors warned him that Mundell's approach would not work, could not work -- indeed, Reagan's own experience would prove that in 1982-83. But Reagan bought Mundell's theory anyway, for it told Reagan what he wanted to believe: that you could cut taxes, cut inflation, have economic growth, and balance the budget all at the same time." 4

The man charged to make this all work was David Stockman, Reagan's budget director. Stockman's genius and mastery of numbers was matched only by his relatively young age, which earned him the title of "whiz kid." Stockman, Roberts and Anderson came up with a massively optimistic forecast for the economy, which today Stockman derisively refers to as the "Rosy Scenario." The Rosy Scenario predicted that the 1981 tax cuts would produce 5 percent growth in 1982. (In fact, 1982 was the worst year since World War II, with negative growth of 2.2 percent.) Many budget-watchers pointed out that the tax cuts would only increase the deficit, but Stockman silenced all his critics with a blizzard of statistics and information. "Like a child prodigy chess champion playing fifty matches at once, Stockman answered every query, parried every countermove, checked every challenge," Smith writes. "Congress was mesmerized."5 Today, Stockman admits it was all a performance. "Even the appearance of being an expert is self-validating," he wrote five years later. "I didn't know much about budgets, but I knew more than the rest of them."6

But as early as August 1981, Stockman began having gnawing doubts about his budget. Computer simulations failed to project the tremendous growth he had predicted, and later he would admit to cooking the numbers (!) before selling the budget to Congress. That December, the Atlantic Monthly published an article in which Stockman made several damaging and embarrassing confessions about the entire supply-side philosophy. He admitted that the 1981 tax cut "was always a Trojan horse to bring down the top [tax] rate" for the wealthy. Cutting taxes for the rich had long ago been coined "trickle down economics" - and it was an unpopular concept with the middle class. "It's kind of hard to sell 'trickle down,'" Stockman told the interviewer. "So the supply-side formula was the only way to get a tax policy that was really 'trickle down.' Supply-side is 'trickle-down' theory."7

The Rosy Scenario failed to materialize. The economy did not grow out of its deficits. In 1986, Washington and the rest of the nation would again be surprised when Stockman confessed all in a book entitled The Triumph of Politics: Why the Reagan Revolution Failed.
[hr]
Some links to statistics refuting the Reagan myth...

http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/1THE_REAGAN_YEARs.htm

antieverything
11th January 2003, 16:22
I would'nt hold it against any of the "supply-siders" here if they just came out and said that they misunderstood what supply-side economics is all about. You can still be a conservative without being a supply-sider.

HankMorgan
12th January 2003, 07:48
Nice use of the copy and paste, antieverything. I especially liked the quote of Paul Krugman. I read all of Krugman's stuff in our newspaper and had no idea he was an economist.

It didn't take much surfing the net to realize that supply side economics is taken seriously and not just the domain of crack pots as the quote from korpios.org would have one believe.

I added the word "success" to the words "supply side" and turned up an interesting comparison. The comparison was between 10 US states that reduced the amount of government spending versus 10 states that increased government spending. The 10 states that reduced the load government places on the economy had better growth and less unemployment.

I also found, as I expected to, articles on Ireland where government spending was cut by more than 7% of GDP and economic growth zoomed to 7.2% per year. Ireland is a dramatic supply side success story.

Maybe Krugman and other economists pooh pooh supply side economics but government leaders at all levels are achieving success by reducing the load government places on an economy.

queen of diamonds
12th January 2003, 11:52
I think we're seeing a move now towards less government intervention in the economy. Or mybe that's just here in Australia, where people are still getting over the fact that the GST's been introduced. After all, Bush is unveiling a new economic policy soon.

antieverything
12th January 2003, 16:51
Um, I figured you had no idea what supply side economics was...the theory is TO INCREASE GOVERNMENT SPENDING and decrease taxes.

HankMorgan
13th January 2003, 03:30
Antieverything, your definition of supply side economics isn't what President Reagan campaigned on and isn't the accepted definition. Supply side economics is cutting both taxes AND government spending.

Supply side economics works which is why it's so dangerous to US Democrats. It's so important that supply side economics be discredited that they're is attempting to redefine what it is.

Democrats buy votes through government spending. Republicans buy votes by letting the taxpayer keep what they've earned. Supply side economics works to the advantage of Republicans and to the disadvantage of Democrats.

antieverything
13th January 2003, 03:41
The whole idea is that tax cuts spur economic growth so much that they actually increase tax collections by increasing the amount of taxable income. It didn't work but Reagan still spent tons of money and consequently put us into the deficit we have now.

HankMorgan
13th January 2003, 05:02
You are correct. The idea is that the economy would grow enough that tax revenue would increase even though the tax rate is lower. That much did work. Federal revenue did increase. The problem was that spending grew at an even greater rate.

Whether the increase in spending was on the rebuilding of the military after the years of neglect or on social spending depends on who you ask.

I remain totally convinced that supply side economics is good for the economy.

antieverything
13th January 2003, 14:05
No, it didn't work.

Let's say that you take the 1981 tax collections (before the tax cuts) and multiply it by eight...subtract the tax collections under reagan and you come out nearly 20 billion dollars behind. That's just income taxes, if you take corporate income taxes, we came out nearly 70 billion behind. Net total loss of tax collections under reagan? 88,000,000,000, yep, that's 88 billion 1987 dollars.

Of course, the tax collections would have been expected to shoot up in the 80's because of natural growth (the economy has only shrunk for something like 7 years after WWII) and the fact that we were coming out of a freakin' recession.

And another thing, economic growth under Reagan was piss freakin' poor. Got that? Potential growth under Reagan and a long list of previous presidents is just about the same and most economists would give credit for that growth to the actions of the Fed during that time. Growth under Reagan was expected to be more: deep recessions are naturally followed by steeper recoveries (boom and bust coupled with the natural rate of economic growth).

One pretty strange fact for you guys to have to handle is the fact that Reagan was one of the worst job-creation presidents. Job growth even under Carter was 3.1% while under Reagan it was about .6%.

HankMorgan
14th January 2003, 07:07
When someone I believe has something between the ears says something that makes no sense I have to check myself. Did I hear or read it correctly? Do I understand it correctly? This is one of those times.

Are you saying that eight times the 1981 federal revenue is greater than the sum of the eight years of federal revenue during the Reagan presidency? If every year after 1981 saw higher revenue than 1981 then that can't be. I must not understand. My friend, what did you just say?

http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/text/irsrec.htm

The threads on "US Imperialism" are more interesting.

Stormin Norman
14th January 2003, 14:47
false:Growth in the 80s was no greater than growth in the 70s
false:supply side economics was...the theory is TO INCREASE GOVERNMENT SPENDING and decrease taxes.


As has been stated so recently by the Bush Administration, Reaganomics is the principle that cutting taxes will increase consumer and corporate spending, because more money will be left at their disposal. The result will be increased economic activity, which leads to the type of robust economy that will yield greater tax revenues for the government.

Most conservatives who subscribe to such logic would also advocate reductions in government spending when it comes to pork barrel spending and entitlements. If you believe that these cuts failed to occur at the rate Reagan initially proposed you would be correct. Reagan was faced with an enormous military threat and a congress that suffered from a severe case of the "indispensable necessity" syndrome. Although, the contemporary view at that time was a rejection of Keynesianism and an overall reduction in taxes on marginal revenue would end stagflation, elected officials refused to make cuts in the social services, fearing retribution at the polls. This led to one of the biggest disappointments the Reagan Administration faced in its economic policy. They had failed to reduce federal spending, which had been part of Reagan's economic policy, antieverything. Federal spending had only decreased by 0.8% of GDP from 1981 to 1989. However, it wasn't a total loss, as it did fall slightly.

As for your claim that growth was the same in the 1970's as it was in the 1980's, I don't know where you get your information, but it is wrong. Overall, growth rates increased, inflation slowed, and unemployment dropped. Real GDP growth per worker increased a whole percentage point, from an annual growth rate 0.8% (under Carter) to 1.8% (under Reagan). Productivity growth remains higher. Productivity in manufacturing grew at a 3.8% annually, a record for peacetime growth! Unemployment declined from 7.0% in 1980 to 5.4% in 1988. Finally, inflation fell from 10.4% in 1980 to 4.2% in 1988. Wow, it sounds wonderful!

What policies were responsible for this type of unprecedented economic growth? Let's take a look, shall we?

-Top marginal tax rate on income was reduced from 70% to 28%
-Corporate income tax reduced from 48% to 34%
-Reducing regulations
-Redefining antitrust laws, and allowing for banks to expand holdings
-Deregulation continued (started under Carter administration)

The purpose of lowering tax rates on labor and capital, reducing the amount of growth of government spending, controlling inflation through monetarism, and decreasing overall government interference in the market place; was to increase saving and investment, increase economic growth, return to functional financial markets, and kill the beast of stagflation. As we have seen here, Reagan's policies were largely successful, except in the area of government growth.

With all due respect, you should go back and check your facts and figures. Reaganomics succeeded where so many had failed. Stagflation had been checked, and we saw the largest peacetime expansion of an economy ever, with the possible exception of what is occurring in China right now. Once again, the left's attempts to mire a great president run anti to wisdom and truth. If liberals ran our economy it would fail, just as it has so many times in Europe's experimentation with socialism. Will they ever learn from their own idiocy? I am not optimistic, not at all.

If you liked what I just said, you'll love this:

Greate Quote from Newt Gingrich (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=1446)

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 2:52 am on Jan. 15, 2003)

antieverything
14th January 2003, 18:43
you sad little man...I think that I've done enough to show you what really happened under Reagan and what really caused these things to happen but apparently you don't understand it. I'll try harder, this isn't over.

Concerning my last post, I said the 81(?) level TIMES EIGHT! Projections under the continuation of previous policy would be more than that though.

antieverything
15th January 2003, 14:24
First of all you have to realize that supply side economics arose during the 70's from the twisted minds of a collection of cranks, quacks, and spindoctors. The idea that tax cuts for the rich would spur the economy is nothing new...the new idea was that tax cuts increased tax revenue. They idea from misusing statistics from the 20's and Kennedy years. Everyone in the inner circle knew that it was nothing but a trojan horse for raising taxes on everyone else to give more money to the rich. Because the quackery obviously didn't work in practice they just shifted the tax burdens to the states just like they are doing now. The difference is "tax and spend" or "don't tax and spend anyway" because you can't just close the public schools. Your statistic of reduced government spending is flawed because it doesn't take into account increases in state spending. Remember what most economists said about that Laffer Curve, it wasn't accurate in it's assessment of where taxes can be set and be detrimental to the economy.

Who said this? The Bush that called Reaganomics "voodoo" or the Bush that doesn't know how to tie his freaking shoes?


Most conservatives who subscribe to such logic would also advocate reductions in government spending when it comes to pork barrel spending and entitlements. Supply siders weren't "most conservatives". They believed that we would see increased tax collections...do you think that they were planning to just put this money in a rainy day fund and make the states pay for everything?

Spending did NOT drop under Reagan! It rose in his two terms by 1.8 and 2% respectively. However, this was slower than his predecessors. I'm sure you could attribute this to his continuing with Carter's defense increases.

I have to wrap it up here because my class is about to start but here's the thing about growth:

Supply-siders are careful to note that Reagan's was the longest peacetime expansion since World War II. In truth, the Kennedy-Johnson expansion was longer: 106 months compared to Reagan's 92.1 Of course, there was a war in Vietnam, which gives supply-siders an excuse to dismiss it because wars are beneficial to the economy. But they are beneficial because governments engage in Keynesian borrowing and spending during them (which could be directed to social services as well as war). Unfortunately for supply-siders, it was really Keynesianism that produced the longest economic boom since World War II.

And this observation is even more of a victory for Keynesianism than it sounds. For all his public promotion of supply-side economics, Reagan actually practiced a massive form of Keynesian borrowing and spending. Almost $2 trillion worth, to be exact.

Another thing is that a large recession will almost always be followed by a larger period of growth.

It is important to look at potential growth which you obviously haven't done.

Despite the economic growth that economists don't even attribute to Reagan's policies, unemployment didn't recover until 88 precisely because of Reagan's policies.

I'll get into things like deregulation later.

antieverything
16th January 2003, 14:16
Well, I just got back from reading the Small Business Survival Council website (or something like that...) and it just stated the same blatant lie that I've seen on site after site defending Reaganomics: that tax revenues soared!

Of course they show this by using a graph that starts in '82, a year of recession, and then they try to make one ooh and ah at the nice curve shape going on. Of course they don't mention that tax revenues were not keeping up with the rate of economic growth and actually these numbers put us in a deficit!

So, I repeat the question: in supply-side theory when tax cuts increase tax revenues, where the hell is this money supposed to go?

HankMorgan
17th January 2003, 07:20
Ah, antieverything, the Monty Python Black Knight of the supply side discussion.

You really did say that eight (8) times the 1981 Federal Revenue is greater that the sum of the Federal Revenue collected during the eight (8) years of the Reagan administration.

We've drifted off topic a little. The reason supply siders point to the increase in tax revenue following a tax cut is to emphasize the other term in the tax calculation. Tax revenue is the product of tax rate and the output of the economy.

TaxRevenue = TaxRate * EconomicOutput

If the tax rate goes down and the tax revenue goes up, that means the economic output had to go up. Increasing economic output is the goal, not increasing tax revenue. Rising economic output is the result of more people working and that's what we want.

Supply side policy ended the stagflation of the 1970's in the US. It also turned the former sick man of Europe, Ireland, into the economic power it is now.

I'd love to hear the goateed berets from the UK weigh in on Ireland's success. RedCeltic, Moskitto, mentalbunny, AK47 are you out there? Did reducing the government's take spur growth or was it something else?

antieverything
17th January 2003, 14:06
Last time I checked, Ireland was the most globalized country in the world...so I don't think it's an issue of tax cuts helping the economy so much as international corporations. Probably very little money of the economic growth goes to Ireland.

Now let's assume for a moment that economic growth was going to happen because of the Fed's monetary policy...would it be expected for the poor to quite litteraly get poorer?

Under Reagan, the average wage fell by a dollar an hour.

Why were the majority of families better off under Carter and recession than under Reagan and growth?

Under Reagan, the average workers was being more productive but recieving less for it! Is this a sound policy for economic growth?

I've already explained in other debates about how Reagan did not end stagflation.

HankMorgan
18th January 2003, 05:52
Why, why, why did the international corporations invest in Ireland? Maybe the lower taxes offered a better return on investment in Ireland than in other countries?
Come on, antieverything!! That's how supply side works. That's why supply side works. Think!!!! Slap! Slap! Quit sleeping for crying out loud. I repeat, it's common sense. Common sense.

Atlas really does shrug.

HankMorgan
18th January 2003, 05:54
Your turn, antieverything. I don't thing like you do so help me out. I'd like to see an example of demand side success or I'd like to hear what your prescription for the present funk the US economy is in.

You're the President, Congress and Fed chairman all rolled into one. How does it work?

(Edited by HankMorgan at 1:59 am on Jan. 18, 2003)

antieverything
19th January 2003, 21:20
Why, why, why did the international corporations invest in Ireland? Maybe the lower taxes offered a better return on investment in Ireland than in other countries?This doesn't have a whole lot to do with trickle down economics. Globalization brings it's own set of problems to somewhat developed economies like Ireland's...look at NAFTA's negative impact on Mexican workers...but each economy reacts differently. The discussion changes when we are talking about underdeveloped economies like Ireland's...presently we are talking about highly developed, somewhat self-contained economies like that of the United States.


Come on, antieverything!! That's how supply side works. That's why supply side works. Think!!!! Slap! Slap! Quit sleeping for crying out loud. I repeat, it's common sense. Common sense.There is a reason why economic theories built on common sense have failed so badly in real life as opposed to ones that are arrived at through a more scientific approach. Common sense says that a rising tide raises all boats but reality doesn't work that way. Common sense says that loggers would use sustainable development techniques but it doesn't work out that way in real life. Why? Because reality is too complex for our common sense to adequately grasp...and that's just common sense!


Your turn, antieverything. I don't thing like you do so help me out. I'd like to see an example of demand side success or I'd like to hear what your prescription for the present funk the US economy is in.

You're the President, Congress and Fed chairman all rolled into one. How does it work?Ah, the old coward's debating tactic: tell me everything about this. What makes you think that I am on the defensive here, I've provided you with fact after fact after fact and all you can do is make the same assertions which I have previously debunked!

Let's get one thing straight. All schools of economics that emphasize the supply-side are "supply-side" economics. Supply-side economics is as much a rejection of monetarism as it is of Keynesianism.