Coups supported by the US - (in different countries)

[Larissa]

* Guatemala (against Jacobo Arbenz)
* Indonesia (against Sukarno)
* Brasil (against Goulart)
* Peru (against Alvarado)
* Bolivia (against Torres)
* Uruguay (Bordaberry against Bordaberry)
* Chile (against Allende)
* Panama (against Torrijos, by that "great democratic" leader, Noriega)
* Argentina (a world hit, this one: the Argentinians paid with 30,000 dead for the world popularity of their generals)

Can anybody really say, except as a joke, that the US DID NOT support ALL of the above coups?

[MEXCAN]

What about Nicaragua ??!!

[Larissa]

Thanks for refreshing my mind!!

*Nicaragua - (Sandino first, then Ortega)
http://www.nodo50.org/espanica/histonica.h...html#revolución (http://www.nodo50.org/espanica/histonica.html#revolución)

[MEXCAN]

http://www.nodo50.org/espanica/histonica.h...html#revolución (http://www.nodo50.org/espanica/histonica.html#revolución)

[redstar2000]

Don't forget Iran in 1953...when the CIA conspired to overthrow a popular government and install the odious shah.

And Greece in the 1970s, installing a military dictatorship that was utterly despised by the Greek people.

And the Marcos dictatorship in the Phillippines.

In 19th century Europe, it was Czarist Russia that Marx called the "bulwark of reaction"...the ultimate financial, political and military supporter of despotism throughout Europe.

Today, that role is filled on a world-scale by the United States. It is the enemy of freedom for EVERY people in the world.

It must be OPPOSED, without qualification, by all who love freedom everywhere.

[Nateddi]

Oh, there's more.


* Guatemala (against Jacobo Arbenz)
* Indonesia (against Sukarno)
* Brasil (against Goulart)
* Peru (against Alvarado)
* Bolivia (against Torres)
* Uruguay (Bordaberry against Bordaberry)
* Chile (against Allende)
* Panama (against Torrijos, by that "great democratic" leader, Noriega)
* Argentina (a world hit, this one: the Argentinians paid with 30,000 dead for the world popularity of their generals)

Iran (against Mohamed Mossadegh)
Venezuela (against Hugo Chavez Frias)
Haiti (against Aristide)
Congo (against Lumumba)

Those are just the coups I can think of, of the top of my head. There are probably many more, perhaps not yet declassified. Don't forget about the military invasions as in Dominican Republic, Grenada, Panama, and South Vietnam.

[Larissa]

What really upsets me about the Venezuela-Cjavez case is that the opposition says Chavez is "perpetrating an auto-coup".

How is this magical coup taking place? Has he hijacked Congress? Declared a state of siege? Expropriated private property? Censored the press? Killed and persecuted opponents? Sent the army against the people? Occupied the private television companies? Tortured critics?

Nope, he hasn't done any of that which has in fact been done by those who carried out coups "against
communism" in Argentina, Uruguay, Chile... Or the new neo-liberal heroes who have carried out real auto-coups (Yeltsin, Fujimori).

Buy again, try to carry out in the US the daily bashing of the President which the private newspapers and television carry out daily in Venezuela and see how far you go before you wind up in the hand of the new American KGB.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

auto-coup is another word made up to cover the truth. Words like armed-patrol used by the military. Liquedaided, taken out etc.

[Nateddi]

This is the first time I've heard anyone use the term "auto-coup". From the examples Larissa gave, it seems to imply a secretive and gradual, yet profoud change of society or government. Fujimori and Yeltsin most definitely fit a bill for such leaders. Thank goodness that the corrupt bastard Fujimori has been finally deposed by the people of Peru in favor of a leftist leader.

[MEXCAN]

For me the worst coup is the one in Nicaragua !!!The US actually said it was self-defence !!!!Imagine that !!??The US went against the world court ruling by saying this :
http://iquebec.ifrance.com/elguzano/usresponse.jpg

OPERATIVE PART OF THE COURT'S JUDGMENT

THE COURT

(1) By eleven votes to four,

Decides that in adjudicating the dispute brought before it by the Application filed by the Republic of Nicaragua on 9 April 1984, the Court is required to apply the "multilateral treaty reservation"contained in proviso © to the declaration of acceptance of jurisdiction made under Article 36, paragraph 2, of the Statute of the Court by the Government of the Untied States of America deposited on 26 August 1946;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Oda, Ago, Schwebel, Sir Robert Jennings, Mbaye, Bedjaoui and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judges Ruda, Elias, Sette-Camara and Ni.

(2) By twelve votes to three,

Rejects the justification of collective self-defence maintained by the United States of America in connection with the military and paramilitary activities in and against Nicaragua the subject of this case;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette-Camara, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judges Oda, Schwebel and Sir Robert Jennings.

(3) By twelve votes to three,

Decides that the United States of America, by training, arming, equipping, financing and supplying the contra forces or otherwise encouraging, supporting and aiding military and paramilitary activities in and against Nicaragua, has acted, against the Republic of Nicaragua, in breach of its obligation under customary international law not to intervene in the affairs of another State;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette-Camara, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judges Oda, Schwebel and Sir Robert Jennings.

(4) By twelve votes to three,

Decides that the United States of America, by certain attacks on Nicaraguan territory in 1983-1984, namely attacks on Puerto Sandino on 13 September and 14 October 1983, an attack on Corinto on 10 October 1983; an attack on Potosi Naval Base on 4/5 January 1984, an attack on San Juan del Sur on 7 March 1984; attacks on patrol boats at Puerto Sandino on 28 and 30 March 1984; and an attack on San Juan del Norte on 9 April 1984; and further by those acts of intervention referred to in subparagraph (3) hereof which involve the use of force, has acted, against the Republic of Nicaragua, in breach of its obligation under customary international law not to use force against another State;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette-Camara, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judges Oda, Schwebel and Sir Robert Jennings.

(5) By twelve votes to three,

Decides that the United States of America, by directing or authorizing over Rights of Nicaraguan territory, and by the acts imputable to the United States referred to in subparagraph (4) hereof, has acted, against the Republic of Nicaragua, in breach of its obligation under customary international law not to violate the sovereignty of another State;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette-Camara, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judges Oda, Schwebel and Sir Robert Jennings.

(6) By twelve votes to three,

Decides that, by laying mines in the internal or territorial waters of the Republic of Nicaragua during the first months of 1984, the United States of America has acted, against the Republic of Nicaragua, in breach of its obligations under customary international law not to use force against another State, not to intervene in its affairs, not to violate its sovereignty and not to interrupt peaceful maritime commerce;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh, Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette-Camara, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judges Oda, Schwebel and Sir Robert Jennings.

(7) By fourteen votes to one,

Decides that, by the acts referred to in subparagraph (6) hereof the United States of America has acted, against the Republic of Nicaragua, in breach of its obligations under Article XIX of the Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation between the United States of America and the Republic of Nicaragua signed at Managua on 21 January 1956;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh, Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Oda, Ago, Sette-Camara, Sir Robert Jennings, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judge Schwebel.

(8) By fourteen votes to one,

Decides that the United States of America, by failing to make known the existence and location of the mines laid by it, referred to in subparagraph (6) hereof, has acted in breach of its obligations under customary international law in this respect;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière, Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette Camara, Schwebel, Sir Robert Jennings, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judge Oda.

(9) By fourteen votes to one,

Finds that the United States of America, by producing in 1983 a manual entitled "Operaciones sicológicas en guerra de guerrillas", and disseminating it to contra forces, has encouraged the commission by them of acts contrary to general principles of humanitarian law; but does not find a basis for concluding that any such acts which may have been committed are imputable to the United States of America as acts of the United States of America;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette Camara, Schwebel, Sir Robert Jennings, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judge Oda.

(10) By twelve votes to three,

Decides that the United States of America, by the attacks on Nicaraguan territory referred to in subparagraph (4) hereof, and by declaring a general embargo on trade with Nicaragua on 1 May 1985, has committed acts calculated to deprive of its object and purpose the Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation between the Parties signed at Managua on 21 January 1956;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette Camara, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judges Oda, Schwebel and Sir Robert Jennings.

(11) By twelve votes to three,

Decides that the United States of America, by the attacks on Nicaraguan territory referred to in subparagraph (4) hereof, and by declaring a general embargo on trade with Nicaragua on 1 May 1985, has acted in breach of its obligations under Article XIX of the Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation between the Parties signed at Managua on 21 January 1956;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette-Camara, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judges Oda, Schwebel and Sir Robert Jennings.

(12) By twelve votes to three,

Decides that the United States of America is under a duty immediately to cease and to refrain from all such acts as may constitute breaches of the foregoing legal obligations;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette Camara, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judges Oda, Schwebel and Sir Robert Jennings.

(13) By twelve votes to three,

Decides that the United States of America is under an obligation to make reparation to the Republic of Nicaragua for all injury caused to Nicaragua by the breaches of obligations under customary international law enumerated above;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Ago, Sette-Camara, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judges Oda, Schwebel and Sir Robert Jennings.

(14) By fourteen votes to one,

Decides that the United States of America is under an obligation to make reparation to the Republic of Nicaragua for all injury caused to Nicaragua by the breaches of the Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation between the Parties signed at Managua on 21 January 1956;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Oda, Ago, Sette-Camara, Sir Robert Jennings, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judge Schwebel.

(15) By fourteen votes to one,

Decides that the form and amount of such reparation, failing agreement between the Parties, will be settled by the Court, and reserves for this purpose the subsequent procedure in the case;

IN FAVOUR: President Nagendra Singh; Vice-President de Lacharrière; Judges Lachs, Ruda, Elias, Oda, Ago, Sette Camara, Sir Robert Jennings, Mbaye, Bedjaoui, Ni and Evensen; Judge ad hoc Colliard;

AGAINST: Judge Schwebel.

(16) Unanimously,

Recalls to both Parties their obligation to seek a solution to their disputes by peaceful means in accordance with international law.

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/icases/inus/...ry_19860627.htm (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/icases/inus/inus_isummaries/inus_isummary_19860627.htm)






(Edited by MEXCAN at 1:25 am on Jan. 5, 2003)

[El Brujo]

Cuba (Batista)
Paraguay
Grenada
Dominican Rep
Phillipines

Plus the fascistic governments that they didn't help establish but are/were cozy with:

Israel
Saudi Arabia
Turkey
Iraq
Taiwan
Thailand
Fascist Spain
Fascist Portugal
Apartheid South Africa
Apartheid Rhodesia
The Khmer Rhouge
Romania under Ceausescu
The Dali Lama
South Korea (which was under millitary dictatorship several times)

Im probably missing some (or a lot) but thats all that comes to mind now.

[guerrillaradio]

Great topic. What would people make of me moving this to Soc vs Cap?? I'd quite like to watch the capitalists squirm, but I'll only do it if the general consensus agrees with me.

[Larissa]

Guerrillaradio,

I agree. No problem at all. Move it where you think it is more convenient.

(I'm new here, so I still don't know where to post "exactly" certain topics.)

:-)

[redstar2000]

Sure, guerillaradio, move it.

:cool:

[Sirion]

Here is a (probably uncomplete) list over atrocities commited by the CIA:

http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/CIAtimeline.html

Not only about coups, but they are included.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Nice article, very interresting.

[redstarshining]

You forgot Afghanistan and the Taliban. I recently saw a video where the chief of CIA operations in middle east ( forgot his name and rank ) referred to the Taliban as something like "freedom fighters against russian aggression" and "God's warriors whose struggle is just" ;)
In the background you could see trucks with american stinger missiles passing by.
It was a 2 hours documentary which was aired on Phoenix ( a german burgeoise TV-station ) a couple of months ago. I hope they show it again soon, then I will be able to give you exact quotes and names of persons and places.


(Edited by redstarshining at 7:59 pm on Jan. 5, 2003)

[Anonymous]

hehe is it only my impression or the cappies are hidded somewhere?

[synthesis]

Another good site, my personal favorite:

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...gyofTerror.html (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html)

and this:

http://www.thelawparty.org/CIA_Time_Line_o..._Atrocities.htm (http://www.thelawparty.org/CIA_Time_Line_of_Atrocities.htm)

My two points of reference.

[synthesis]

Oops, looks like that second link is the same as the one already posted.

[HankMorgan]

A couple were missed:

The US also took down Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and the Confederate States of America.

Just to be complete.

[HankMorgan]

One more: Mussolini's Italy.

[antieverything]

20 million soviet soldiers died in WW2...I don't think that the United States should be able to take all of the credit. And it's not like we entered the war out of the goodness of our hearts...before Pearl Harbor, we were contented to sell to both sides.

[HankMorgan]

I would never take anything away from the heroism and sacrifice of the Soviet military.

[synthesis]

The US also took down Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and the Confederate States of America.

The U.S. killed 230,000+ innocent civilians in Japan, 150,000 or more when it was on the verge of surrendering.

(I do acknowledge that the U.S. has done some good things in the past, though that period seems to be over.)

Regardless... I suppose you believe we dismantled the Confederacy because it practiced slavery, as well?

[Capitalist Imperial]

All of the police actions discussed in this post were legitimate operations conducted by the United States in the name of freedom and domocracy.

As a benevolent and sovereign empire, the United States reserves the right to maintain and extend its sphere of influence and protect its interests wherever they are.

An incidental benefit of this is that certain nations under the iron fist of oppression can seek the assistance of the United States in fighting revolutions for freedom (not "coups" as you pinkos like to call them to fit your anti-U.S. Agendas). When freedom fighters from such nations maintain goals aligned with the U.S. interests in such revolutions, the mutual benefit is merely incedental.

It is sad that you commie pukes must spin justified US action in the name of freedom as "coups" to fit your anti-US platform, as in reality the US is a beacon of freedom and justice in an ever-uncertain world of oppression and terror.

[timbaly]

CI, is overthrowing democratically elected leaders your definition of justice? Is going against the majority your idea of freedom? By installing harsh dictators the US freed people from opression, correct? By training militants to terrorize the officials of opposing regimes equates to terrorism, am I right?

Anyway I got a another overthrow. Hawaii in 1898 I believe, for the sake of the Sugar Cane industry.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from timbaly on 9:20 pm on Jan. 6, 2003
CI, is overthrowing democratically elected leaders your definition of justice? Is going against the majority your idea of freedom? By installing harsh dictators the US freed people from opression, correct? By training militants to terrorize the officials of opposing regimes equates to terrorism, am I right?

Anyway I got a another overthrow. Hawaii in 1898 I believe, for the sake of the Sugar Cane industry.

hawaii was legitimately procured by the US, it was good for Hawaii.

[timbaly]

I agree to some extent, just about anything is better than a monarchy. By the way which president wanted to put the Queen back in power? Was it Cleveland?

[MEXCAN]

hey Capitalist Imperial !!!Do you think the world court was wrong when they made a judgement against the States????Or were the judges a bunch of Commie pukes as well ???

[antieverything]

CI, that is the most hillariously condemning thing you've ever said.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from MEXCAN on 11:18 pm on Jan. 6, 2003
hey Capitalist Imperial !!!Do you think the world court was wrong when they made a judgement against the States????Or were the judges a bunch of Commie pukes as well ???



The world court is a bunch of convoluted liberals full of jealousy of the United States and its sphere of influence. The USA reserves all rights to maintain its own sovereignty and interests regardless of world court rulings.

[MEXCAN]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:00 am on Jan. 7, 2003

Quote: from MEXCAN on 11:18 pm on Jan. 6, 2003
hey Capitalist Imperial !!!Do you think the world court was wrong when they made a judgement against the States????Or were the judges a bunch of Commie pukes as well ???



The world court is a bunch of convoluted liberals full of jealousy of the United States and its sphere of influence. The USA reserves all rights to maintain its own sovereignty and interests regardless of world court rulings.

Ya and the states reserve their rights to control the interests and sovereignty of pretty much every country !!As of today ,like the states!I reserve my rights to shoot anyone i please,regardless of the law and the court rulings !!!!!See how stupid that sounds !!!???

[Capitalist Imperial]

no, it is totally different, the US takes justified action, it doesn't just attack other nations for nothing, as your shooting would

[MEXCAN]

From Rogue State
by William Blum:

Less than two weeks after the fall of the Berlin Wall, the United States showed its joy that a new era of world peace was now possible by invading Panama, as Washington’s mad bombers struck again. On December 20, 1989, a large tenement barrio in Panama City was wiped out; 15,000 people were left homeless. Counting several days of ground fighting between U.S. and Panamanian forces, 500-something natives dead was the official body count — i.e., what the United States and the new U.S.-installed Panamanian government admitted to. Other sources, examining more evidence, concluded that thousands had died. Additionally, some 3,000 Panamanians were wounded, 23 Americans died, 324 were wounded.

Question from reporter: “Was it really worth it to send people to their death for this? To get Noriega?"

George Bush: “Every human life is precious, and yet I have to answer, yes, it has been worth it.”

Manuel Noriega had been an American ally and informant for years until he outlived his usefulness. But getting him was hardly a major motive for the attack. Bush wanted to send a clear message to the people of Nicaragua, who had an election scheduled in two months, that this might be their fate if they reelected the Sandinistas. Bush also wanted to flex some military muscle to illustrate to Congress the need for a large combat-ready force even after the very recent dissolution of the “Soviet threat.” The official explanation for the American ouster was Noriega’s drug trafficking, which Washington had known about for years and had not been at all bothered by. And they could easily have gotten their hands on the man without wreaking such terrible devastation upon the Panamanian people.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Those incidents were ultimately the fault of Manuel Noriega and no other.

[MEXCAN]

And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
i guess i really can't argue with you !!!???The star spangle banner is in your heart and in your veins !!According to you the CIA are saints !!!

[Capitalist Imperial]

The CIA are silent sentries of freedom, covert guardians of liberty.

The CIA is one of our nations most important and benevolent institutions.

[MEXCAN]

And Oliver North is innocent !!!

[antieverything]

I can't believe this...this is amazing! It's like a perfect excuse to simply ignore this guy from now on...of course that wouldn't change anything because he doesn't really argue any valid points instead opting to try to make people mad at him.

CI, you forget that these countries have "interests" of their own...they are supposed to be soveriegn. If interests of one nation are contrary to ours, they would be just as justified in overthrowing our government.

What you are saying is putting a dagger in the back of the argument that the United States is not an empire. You are saying that the US has soveriegnty in countries which cannot vote for representation in our government hence you support tyrrany and are against democracy!

[Umoja]

CI, your a white nationalist. I'd hate to oppose the damaging of your white-male dominated civilization that benefits itself, by being the eye of the pyramid.

[pastradamus]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:59 am on Jan. 7, 2003
The CIA are silent sentries of freedom, covert guardians of liberty.

The CIA is one of our nations most important and benevolent institutions.


"silent sentries of freedom" lmao,thats the fucking funniest thing I've ever heard! if only it was true!
So you guys are such patriots of freedom that you must destroy it for others?

[synthesis]

Ah, William Blum, a great author. My second favorite Jew of all time :)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Umoja on 2:41 am on Jan. 7, 2003
CI, your a white nationalist. I'd hate to oppose the damaging of your white-male dominated civilization that benefits itself, by being the eye of the pyramid.


While you are out in left field pulling these incorrect statements out of nowhere, could you shag some flys?

Or better yet, I know I am a patriot, but could you explain how you drived that I was a "white nationalist"?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from pastradamus on 4:27 am on Jan. 7, 2003

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 12:59 am on Jan. 7, 2003
The CIA are silent sentries of freedom, covert guardians of liberty.

The CIA is one of our nations most important and benevolent institutions.


"silent sentries of freedom" lmao,thats the fucking funniest thing I've ever heard! if only it was true!
So you guys are such patriots of freedom that you must destroy it for others?


I'm sorry your perspective is different.

[timbaly]

We'll CI, I suppose that response is an improvement. Atleast you didn't say his perspective was wrong. But how can you deny hstory? Look at the facts, the CIA has underminded so many world gov'ts only to install repressive tyrannys. where is the freedom there?

I also think it's unustified to call CI a white nationalist, I haven't seen any signs of that at all.

[Umoja]

Almost every Coup has been started in a country with the majority of the population being people of color (not neccessarilly black), the CIA has long been known to undermine numerous minority groups, and you have imperialist in your name, which would essentially mean you support Euro(Cultural, more then locational)-Imperialism, which is a key factor in nearly ever white nationalist group.

[timbaly]

Thats just ridiculous. The CIA didn't single out any paticular region, they just did what they could get away with. The only reason they didn't undermine the gov'ts of white European countries is because of the Warsaw Pact. They didn't want to risk starting a nuclear war so why would they fund coups in Eastern Europe?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from timbaly on 3:48 am on Jan. 9, 2003
Thats just ridiculous. The CIA didn't single out any paticular region, they just did what they could get away with. The only reason they didn't undermine the gov'ts of white European countries is because of the Warsaw Pact. They didn't want to risk starting a nuclear war so why would they fund coups in Eastern Europe?


eaxactly,timbaly, you took the words out of my mouth

CIA actions in the name of revolutions for freedom in nations that happen to not be euro-centric are merely coincedental.

Besides, during the cold war the CIA conducted countless large-scale, albiet more covert, operations in europe and the soviet union (and still does).

[Guest]

Yes, it is foolish to think that the C.I.A. singles out non-Whites. The C.I.A. subverts all governments who dare to resist adding to the pocketbooks of American capitalists. (Greece and Cyprus come to mind readily.)

Greed transcends race, Umoja. It is a wholly destructive flaw present in all subsets of all races of all humans - it is not solely possessed by whites in any way, shape or form. It is as ridiculous an assumption as saying that alcoholism is present only to (and present in all) Irishmen, or that hook-noses are limited to Jews, or any other silly stereotypes.

The greatest crime committed by the United States, though, was not carried out by the C.I.A. but by our military forces, in Indochina. This atrocity was lubricated with racism - the term 'gook' originated here so that the soldiers of the U.S. could dehumanize the 6,500,000 men, women, and children that they raped, slaughtered, and terrorized in Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, and Cambodia.

(This is DyerMaker, by the way. I didn't feel like logging in)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Guest on 8:38 pm on Jan. 9, 2003
Yes, it is foolish to think that the C.I.A. singles out non-Whites. The C.I.A. subverts all governments who dare to resist adding to the pocketbooks of American capitalists. (Greece and Cyprus come to mind readily.)

Greed transcends race, Umoja. It is a wholly destructive flaw present in all subsets of all races of all humans - it is not solely possessed by whites in any way, shape or form. It is as ridiculous an assumption as saying that alcoholism is present only to (and present in all) Irishmen, or that hook-noses are limited to Jews, or any other silly stereotypes.

The greatest crime committed by the United States, though, was not carried out by the C.I.A. but by our military forces, in Indochina. This atrocity was lubricated with racism - the term 'gook' originated here so that the soldiers of the U.S. could dehumanize the 6,500,000 men, women, and children that they raped, slaughtered, and terrorized in Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, and Cambodia.

(This is DyerMaker, by the way. I didn't feel like logging in)

6,500,000?

Pulling stats out of you know where again, Dyermaker?

[Tkinter1]

"6,500,000?

Pulling stats out of you know where again, Dyermaker?"

lol
Most likely out of someone elses ass.

[timbaly]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 4:25 pm on Jan. 10, 2003
"6,500,000?

Pulling stats out of you know where again, Dyermaker?"

lol
Most likely out of someone elses ass.

What? I'm surprised you didn't say his own. Anyway I would like to see some sources for those numbers.

[synthesis]

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...r2.html#Vietnam (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror2.html#Vietnam)

Scroll down to find the rest.

Vietnam: 2,500,000-3,500,000 deaths
Cambodia: 1,000,000-2,000,000 deaths
Laos: 500,000-1,000,000 deaths

Pulling stats out of you know where again, Dyermaker?

Never have, and never will. Every letter of your sentence reeks of the lies common to all patriots.

Looks like your resident ***** popped his head in to offer a few words of wisdom (namely, a wisecrack that made no sense at all.)

I notice, as well, you have not attempted to disprove my point. Laziness or incompetence? Time will tell.

[Capitalist Imperial]

1st, DyerMaker, shall I just accept stats from a site that includes "american terrorism" in the URL as objective?

From the very outset the text of this piece is vehemently anti-american.

Also, these "estimated civilian deaths". Who estimated them? Were communist army volunteers counted? I some level of collateral damage acceptible (as it happens in any war)?

And then, the sources and references, intrinsically anti-american. A lot of Noam Chomsky and Michael Parenti. Give me a break.

The lack of objectivity of this piece lends itself to non-consideration.

[Fires of History]

I'm quite surprised how you guys are keeping a conversation going with someone like CI who isn't even saying anything except what he heard at the CIA Fan Club.

CI, you realize you sound like a worn out broken record of Ari Fleisher right? Although even Ari gives answers with more content, which is sad to say for you.

You feel this way because you are American, because you benefit from the US' destructive and interventionist policies. But you are in the minority, and clouded by whatever you've been told the US is doing to help the world. But, then again, most Americans live in the same bubble as you.

Have you ever heard of the School of the Americas? Explain that, 'patriot,' if you think the US is so benevolent, so just.

It's obvious that you've not read the writings of the Founding Fathers, they would never call you a 'patriot.'

Never.

Because you would be the cock supporting the tyranny and interests at that time of the benevolent and just British empire. You would be the guy in the red coat talking about Britain's sovereignty and right to pursue it's interests however necessary, especially against those damn colonial 'terrorists.'

You're a joke, and I really am having a hard time imagining why people at this site come in here to listen to you and your fellow 'patriots' say nothing. Nothing at all. Just that the US is the best, that they are right, that they have priority over everyone else. Do you think you sound like anything other than a glorified boy scout? And, lol, you think the US is forever. But that's alright, the Brits thought their fun would last forever too.

Do you honestly think that so many people around the world hate the US because they hate freedom, justice, and democracy? Are you really trying to say that everyone else around the world doesn't get it, that somehow they hate the US because they hate freedom? If you do, you're more off that even I thought.

The rest of the world isn't jealous of America's 'freedom,' isn't resentful of democracy, isn't against justice. They are simply tired of the US trying to put their interests above everyone else's.

You think the US is the only sovereign nation, the only one with the correct interests and agenda. And that is why you are a fool.

[Tkinter1]

CI,

You have to remember that as long as it is anti-American, it's true....

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Fires of History on 10:16 pm on Jan. 10, 2003
I'm quite surprised how you guys are keeping a conversation going with someone like CI who isn't even saying anything except what he heard at the CIA Fan Club.

CI, you realize you sound like a worn out broken record of Ari Fleisher right? Although even Ari gives answers with more content, which is sad to say for you.

You feel this way because you are American, because you benefit from the US' destructive and interventionist policies. But you in the minority, and clouded by whatever you've been told the US is doing to help the world. But, then again, most Americans live in the same bubble as you.

Have you ever heard of the School of the Americas? Explain that, 'patriot,' if you think the US is so benevolent, so just.

It's obvious that you've not read the writings of the Founding Fathers, they would never call you a 'patriot.'

Never.

Because you would be the cock supporting the tyranny and interests at that time of the benevolent and just British empire. You would be the guy in the red coat talking about Britain's sovereignty and right to pursue it's interests however necessary, especially against those damn colonial 'terrorists.'

You're a joke, and I really am having a hard time imagining why people at this site come in here to listen to you and your fellow 'patriots' say nothing. Nothing at all. Just that the US is the best, that they are right, that they have priority over everyone else. Do you think you sound like anything other than a glorified boy scout? And, lol, you think the US is forever. But that's alright, the Brits thought their fun would last forever too.

Do you honestly think that so many people around the world hate the US because they hate freedom, justice, and democracy? Are you really trying to say that everyone else around the world doesn't get it, that somehow they hate the US because they hate freedom? If you do, you're more off that even I thought.

The rest of the world isn't jealous of America's 'freedom,' isn't resentful of democracy, isn't against justice. They are simply tired of the US trying to put their interests above everyone else's.

You think the US is the only sovereign nation, the only one with the correct interests and agenda. And that is why you are a fool.

Fires of History, Its been a while. Still spewing your tired liberal rhetoic, eh?

Still dictating who is and is not a patriot?

Still assuming you know what the founding fathers would want today (case in point, they were slaveowners 200 years ago, would they still be now)?

Still surmising people's worldview?

Still taking exception to people just because they question the validity of unsubstantialted statistics?

Spare us your second-rate soap-box dissertation, you pretentious, snot nose liberal. I understand the constitution more than you ever will, and as such I consider myself a loose contructionist, meaning that the contitution should always be interpreted to reflect modern times.

Put the class envy back in its box, FoH, we americans are allnot the ignorant, arrogant, sheltered individuals that you love topaint us as to fit your flawed agena.

P.S., go back and read up on manifest destiny, and then tell me who the founding fathers would agree with.

[antieverything]

The Association for Responsible Dissent estimates that by 1987, 6 million people had died as a result of CIA covert operations. Former State Department official William Blum correctly calls this an "American Holocaust."

William Blum is pretty fucking dangerous to the status quo and so is effectively ignored by the media.

[Fires of History]

LOL, still CI you say nothing.

And the fact that you can sit on this thread and read the countless coups perpetrated by the US, and then have the nerve to justify them, is beyond me. Surely you must be an invented internet character to say half the shit you do because you're that ridiculous.

And, if there is anyone on this board who needs to step off their tired soapbox it is you. Surely we know already how perfect the US is, you don't need to tell us for the zillionth time.

And, what are you talking about "we americans"? I'm an American, born and raised. I know the US inside and out, lived on the west coast, east coast, and unfortunately even the south. And you're wrong, most Americans are uneducated and arrogant. And if you can't see that you're lying to yourself. In fact, you prove the arrogant part easily by everything you say.

That or you have no base of reference to compare Americans to. Have you ever even left the US? Even Canadians know more about American history than the average American.

It's 'patriots' like you that are so embarrassing for the US. People like you, spouting how much better, more right, more entitled the US is than everyone else. If that's what makes a 'patriot,' then the US really is doomed.

And I notice you have NOTHING to say about the School of the Americas. Perhaps that's because, not even you, can justify that. Or is teaching Latin and South American soldiers how to torture for the US also part of being a 'patriot.'

And obviously if you agree with Manifest Destiny that would be why you support destroying anything for the sake of American interests. But I think that stopped at the Pacific Ocean, but it sure seems like you don't. Or do you honestly think that the US is meant to spread like a cancer across the entire world? If you do, I hope you enjoy disappointment.

Don't worry about replying, I'll do it for you:

"The US is perfect, everything the US does it perfect, and if you disagree with me you're pinko scum."

Well, that pretty much takes care of any more posting from you ever again CI.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Why didn't you just cut and paste your previous post? Its the same BS.

"...the US is meant to spread like a cancer..."

LOL, this is just ludicrous. This is what I'm talking about. Extreme leftists such as yourself all but ignore every positive contribution that the US has made to the world (and there are countless examples of them), but seem to be able to come up with stats about how evil and "cancerous" america is at the drop of a hat.

It is pure, unadulterated, agenda-driven poppycock, and will entertain none of it.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Why didn't you just cut and paste your previous post? Its the same BS.

"...the US is meant to spread like a cancer..."

LOL, this is just ludicrous. This is what I'm talking about. Extreme leftists such as yourself all but ignore every positive contribution that the US has made to the world (and there are countless examples of them), but seem to be able to come up with stats about how evil and "cancerous" america is at the drop of a hat.

It is pure, unadulterated, agenda-driven poppycock, and I will entertain none of it.

[antieverything]

Sure, I'll admit that not everything the US has done was bad...but you are changing the subject. Why are "US interests" worth 6 million lives?

[Fires of History]

Ok, I will cut and paste this time, not that you'll have anything to say this time anyway.

"And I notice you have NOTHING to say about the School of the Americas. Perhaps that's because, not even you, can justify that. Or is teaching Latin and South American soldiers how to torture for the US also part of being a 'patriot.'"

Still nothing to say? No great reason behind the SOA? No great justification?

???

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from antieverything on 1:06 am on Jan. 11, 2003
Sure, I'll admit that not everything the US has done was bad...but you are changing the subject. Why are "US interests" worth 6 million lives?

[antieverything]

Good point.

[Fires of History]

Quote: from Capitalist Imperial on 1:05 am on Jan. 11, 2003
Extreme leftists such as yourself all but ignore every positive contribution that the US has made to the world (and there are countless examples of them)


OK CI, list them, if you can. Then I'll have no excuse to ignore them. That is if there are "countless examples." If you're not full of shit, it should be easy as pie.

[Tkinter1]

Fires of History,

- Artificial Heart
- Light Bulb
- Computer
- Box Telephone
- Sewing Machine
..Just to name a few

Bottom line, the United States Patent Office has issued more than 6 million patents since 1790 .

[MEXCAN]

let's all start a big MEXICAN wave for "Fires of History"!!!You actually made CI shut up !!!!I would like to as k Ci the same question as you !!!!How do you justify the School of the Americas?????How do you justify the CIA's manual on torture,murder intended for the "Contras" ???

[Tkinter1]

They closed the SOA in 2001. It was replaced with a more humane organisation.
http://www.ciponline.org/facts/soa.htm............

The Fort Benning facility was renamed the "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation."


The renamed institute's official purpose is now "to provide professional education and training to eligible personnel of nations of the Western Hemisphere within the context of the democratic principles set forth in the Charter of the Organization of American States ... while fostering mutual knowledge, transparency, confidence, and cooperation among the participating nations and promoting democratic values, respect for human rights, and knowledge and understanding of United States customs and traditions."


Codifying an existing SOA policy, the new law requires that each student receive at least eight hours of instruction in "human rights, the rule of law, due process, civilian control of the military, and the role of the military in a democratic society."

Courses must focus on leadership development, counter-drug operations, peace support operations, disaster relief, or "any other matter the Secretary [of Defense] deems appropriate."

The new law codified the old SOA's decade-old practice of inviting a "Board of Visitors" to review and evaluate "curriculum, instruction, physical equipment, fiscal affairs, and academic methods." The board must include the chairmen and ranking minority members of both houses' Armed Services Committees (or surrogates), the senior Army officer responsible for training (or a surrogate), one person chosen by the Secretary of State, the head of the U.S. Southern command (or a surrogate), and six people chosen by the Secretary of Defense ("including, to the extent practicable, persons from academia and the religious and human rights communities"). The board reviews the institute's curriculum to determine whether it complies with U.S. laws and doctrine, and whether it is consistent with U.S. policy goals toward Latin America and the Caribbean. Within sixty days of its annual meeting, the Board must submit a report to the Secretary of Defense describing its activities and its recommendations.


The law requires a detailed annual report on the institute's activities, which the Secretary of Defense, after consulting with the Secretary of State, must submit to Congress by March 15 of each year. No report was produced in 2001; the Defense Department claimed that the newly created institue had no activities to report. As of July 2002, the 2002 report had not yet been produced.

I dont think anyone is trying to justify the SOA.

[MEXCAN]

CI tries to justify everything and anything !!!!And you seem to back him up !!??

"""It was replaced with a more humane organisation"""
i sure hope so !!!By the way your link those not work !!!

[Umoja]

I wasn't implying that the entire white population of the United States was racist or that even the CIA was completely racist, but certain higher ups did have an agenda that was far easier to perpetrate on people of color across the world.

Case in Point- Black Panthers (that's more of a national though).

[Tkinter1]

http://www.ciponline.org/facts/soa.htm

THERE

[MEXCAN]

$5.6 million of funding for the SOA aka Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation !!!!Do you really believe that they don't train with the same tactics they used to ???

"""The Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC), located at Fort Benning in Columbus, Georgia, is the U.S. Army’s principal Spanish-language training facility for Latin American military personnel. It is the successor to the School of the Americas (SOA), a facility established in 1946 and legally closed in 2001. The WHINSEC is located in the same building, and offers many of the same courses, as the school it replaces. Along with the U.S. Air Force's Inter-American Air Forces Academy (IAAFA), WHINSEC attracts the largest number of Latin American military students."

[MEXCAN]

They train mass murderers !!!!Contras !!!Ever heard of "LOS Pepes" ??

[antieverything]

Ironic...I remember seeing my sister on the news saying "we want it closed, we don't want it reopened under a different name. We want it closed."

[Tkinter1]

Well lets hope it has changed for the better.

[Fires of History]

We should be asking the question, no matter what publicity stunt name they use for the SOA, why the US military is training soldiers from other nations at all?

And I find it a paradox that no one can justify the SOA, but whatever coups those SOA troops participate in afterward are acceptable and justified, by CI that is. The school is unacceptable, but the atrocities of its graduates are in the best interests of the US, and therefore everyone, according to CI. Quite a paradox.

Tkinter1,

I like that list, but what does that have to do with America's foreign policy or the US government? I thought we were going to talk about a list of positive things that the US GOVERNMENT has done, not Thomas Edison. We were talking about that right?

[Tkinter1]

I thought it was positive contributions in general. Now that I think about it, what I said really didn't have anything to do with what you were talking about. My bad.

The US government provides humanitarian aid:
http://www.usaid.gov/hum_response/ofda/how.htm

Here is also a list of the missions that USAID wants to accomplish, or is in the process of accomplishing.
http://www.usaid.gov/missions/

"USAID is the government agency providing U.S. economic and humanitarian assistance worldwide
for more than 40 years."

I think this has more relevance to what you were talking about.



(Edited by Tkinter1 at 4:44 am on Jan. 11, 2003)

[antieverything]

USAID is controlled by Congress, right? CIA intervention isn't. Usually, they don't even know about it.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Fires of History on 3:50 am on Jan. 11, 2003
Tkinter1,

I like that list, but what does that have to do with America's foreign policy or the US government? I thought we were going to talk about a list of positive things that the US GOVERNMENT has done, not Thomas Edison. We were talking about that right?


Tell me, FoH...

Is your vehement anti-americanism just so intrinsic and internalized that you don't even realize when you are biased, or do you merely lack analytical ability to such an extent that you don't understand the concept of American igenuity?

It was not just individuals by themselves that yielded so many developments and innovations in the last 100 years. Sure, they were great minds, and wonderfful individuals, but that is only 1/2 of the story.

The american government and its ideology created an atmosphere of business practices and freedom of enterprise that lent itself well to invention and innovation. Also, access to information and resources in the USA is also high compared to other nations. Agood example of this was generated electricty (brought to the world by the United States). Both R&D and implementation of this were highly subsidized by the US government. The same goes for nuclear power, and the internet you are on right now was started 100% by the US government.

If, as you suggest FoH, that American inventions are merely the result of individuals', and have nothing to do with the source nation's government, then mathematiclly speaking, the majority of revolutionary inventions that changed the face of the world in the last 100 years would have been spread out among individuals from more varied countries.

However, the vast, vast majority of revolutionary inventions in the last 100 years have come from the USA. I can list them if you want, though I have many times before on this board.

Because, as I said, the US government has provided the environtment necessary for great innovation and invention, and has rewarded individual thinking and acheivement.

So, the US government does get some credit for amreican invention, innovation, and ingenuity.

[Umoja]

CI, it was Hitlers Nazi Germany that allowed us to get great advances in the field of rocketry. Just because a state has positive achievements, doesn't mean you should tottally block out all the bad consequences that come as a result.

[Pavan Sohal]

Hmm...according to that list the only coups america has been implicated in were in the Americas.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Umoja on 9:27 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
CI, it was Hitlers Nazi Germany that allowed us to get great advances in the field of rocketry. Just because a state has positive achievements, doesn't mean you should tottally block out all the bad consequences that come as a result.


I know that, but there is so much more that I am talking about than rockets here.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Pavan Sohal on 11:03 pm on Jan. 13, 2003
Hmm...according to that list the only coups america has been implicated in were in the Americas.


I prefer to call them freedom revolutions.

[Umoja]

No,

Your missing my point CI, I'm saying that a nation can bring many positive contributions to humanity and still not be a great nation.

The United States is not a Nazi Germany, but it isn't the New Kingdom of God.

[antieverything]

So...your logic goes a little something like this: "We invented the fucking lightbulb you commie spic scum-suckers! We will now proceed to overthrow your government and install a ruthless dictator to introduce you to the wonders of the free market™ --actual results may vary, may cause death for hundreds of thousands, but that's ok because rich people are genetically superior according to James Madison--and you must like it because our vice-president created the internet and without us you wouldn't have access to the medical miracle of the artificial heart (that none of you can afford anyway because only the rich deserve to live) and none of you could live without the ELECTRIC TOASTER!!!! cue music

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Umoja on 12:27 am on Jan. 14, 2003
No,

Your missing my point CI, I'm saying that a nation can bring many positive contributions to humanity and still not be a great nation.

The United States is not a Nazi Germany, but it isn't the New Kingdom of God.

I understand, my only point was that you must credit the nation somewhat for it's indiviuals' acheivemnents whenit is obvious that the nation itself provides an atmosphere conducive to invention and innovation.

[Paratrooper]

I want to direct you all to what I call the Asian paradox.

When immigrants from Southwest Asia; China, Vietnam, Korea, move to the States, they make it to the top of the ladder usually by the first generation. They are among the most productive people we have. Those nations I mentioned are quite productive (China is still mediocre), but, as a group, its immigrants are vastly more productive when they come to the States. Do you think it has something to do with the virtues of America? If you have any doubt, look at how the North Koreans do here, and look then at North Korea.

[Paratrooper]

[quote]Quote: from DyerMaker on 12:11 am on Jan. 10, 2003
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...r2.html#Vietnam (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror2.html#Vietnam)

Scroll down to find the rest.

Vietnam: 2,500,000-3,500,000 deaths
Cambodia: 1,000,000-2,000,000 deaths
Laos: 500,000-1,000,000 deaths

Humm, who killed all those people in Cambodia? And in Laos? And in Vietnam, where the murderers came from the North! Geez.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from Paratrooper on 12:56 am on Jan. 14, 2003
[quote]Quote: from DyerMaker on 12:11 am on Jan. 10, 2003
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...r2.html#Vietnam (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror2.html#Vietnam)

Scroll down to find the rest.

Vietnam: 2,500,000-3,500,000 deaths
Cambodia: 1,000,000-2,000,000 deaths
Laos: 500,000-1,000,000 deaths

Humm, who killed all those people in Cambodia? And in Laos? And in Vietnam, where the murderers came from the North! Geez.

Its ok, paratrooper, just read the piece of crap article he posted under his thread "America: Torture Capital of the World". You will see that he has absolutely no credibility.

[antieverything]

The so-called Asian Paradox is bullshit. Aside from the few people who survive shipping themselves in crates, the only Asians able to immigrate to the United States are the richest, the best, and the brightest.