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View Full Version : France denies woman citizenship because she is "too Muslim"



chimx
14th July 2008, 00:15
"Secularity has been a pillar of France's republican values for over a century. It's the strict privatization of an individual's faith, with the intention of making it impossible to discriminate against anyone because of their religion.

But there are times when France's adhesion to secularity seems to generate the same prejudice it's supposed to prevent. On Friday, it was revealed that the nation's highest administrative authority has denied a woman's naturalization application on the grounds that she's effectively too Muslim.

The July 27 decision was revealed in Le Monde, which began its story asking whether "the burqa is incompatible with French nationality" The story suggested the answer is apparently yes, and unfurled that tale of a 32 year-old native Moroccan woman identified as Faiza M. as evidence. Though married to a French citizen and the mother of their three, French-born children, Faiza M. was denied citizenship on the grounds that she has "adopted a religious practice incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes".

Documents filed by immigration and social service officials reviewed by France's Conseil d'Etat stated Faiza M. had turned up for her naturalization interviews covered in black from head to foot, her face veiled with only her eyes visible. The reports said she explained her attire, her aversion to leaving her house, and full submission to her husband's authority as part of the couple's practice of Salafism — a literal reading and rigorous observance of the Qu'ran.

Faiza M. noted that she "never questioned the fundamental values of the Republic", and had never given authorities and cause for concern or complaint since arriving in France in 2000. The Conseil d'Etat's ruling didn't contest that, and even acknowledged Faiza M.'s fine command of French, which is one requirement for naturalization. It also took into account she had repeatedly accepted treatment by a male gynecologist — even as fundamentalist Muslim couples in France are increasingly refusing any treatment for women by male doctors.

Still, the Conseil d'Etat rejected Faiza M.'s application on the grounds the observance constituted "a radical practice of her religion (and) behavior in society incompatible with the essential values of the French community, notably the principle of equality between the sexes".

That decision — which can not be challenged — came in response to Faiza M.'s appeal of an initial rejection of her naturalization application in 2005. The earlier decision faulted her "insufficient assimilation", and cited her form of dress, virtual seclusion, and submission to her husband as justification. In her petition to the Conseil d'Etat, Faiza M. argued the 2005 ruling violated France's constitutional right of freedom of religion by condemning her observance of Islam. The rejection of that appeal is final.

Initial reaction in France has been muted ahead of the Monday's Bastille Day holiday, though activist group Ni Putes Ni Soumises (Neither Whores Nor Submissive) that champions secular and feminist causes said it was "relieved" by the ruling. "The Republic can in no manner validate this kind of tool of oppression and submission of women," a communique by the group said-referring to what it has called the "green fascism" of misogyny practiced in many of France's blighted suburban housing projects under the cover of Islamic fundamentalism or Arab cultural machismo.

Passions are still high, meanwhile, over a law passed in 2004 banning ostensible religious symbols from public schools — a measure primarily aimed at keeping Islamic headscarves out of classrooms. And each new report of commotion — or even violence — in hospitals when Muslim husbands refuse to allow male doctors to tend to their wives sparks renewed outcry and debate that secular French society is under siege from foreign religious influences. The Conseil d'Etat's ruling may allay some of those fears-but not without generating cries of discrimination among many of France's five million Muslim."

source: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1822189,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

Schrödinger's Cat
14th July 2008, 02:43
I'm constantly amazed by how our press treats the French muslim population - the riots are treated as examples of Arab danger (despite the lack of relationship between French muslims and Arabs). Thankfully something a little heterodox to common perception has been made.

eyedrop
14th July 2008, 20:00
What is a woman's naturalization application?

Bud Struggle
14th July 2008, 20:12
I definitely think that America should deny citizenship to people that appear to be too French. :lol:

chimx
14th July 2008, 22:11
I think this is an obvious consequence of Western "Islamophobia". Though perhaps unintentionally, it consequentially singles out certain ethnic groups and uses a persons culture as a means to attack and coerce them. It is extremely bigoted.

Dr Mindbender
14th July 2008, 22:15
i dont see them refusing anyone for being ''too jewish'' or ''too buddhist''.

Its an alarming precedence.

chimx
14th July 2008, 22:23
Or for that matter, do they refuse people heavily influenced by S&M culture and sexual domination? Plenty of westerns submit themselves to their partners in more extreme ways than this woman did to her husband. It acts as a pretense to weed out certain ethnicities from a community.

Wanted Man
14th July 2008, 22:48
Initial reaction in France has been muted ahead of the Monday's Bastille Day holiday, though activist group Ni Putes Ni Soumises (Neither Whores Nor Submissive) that champions secular and feminist causes said it was "relieved" by the ruling. "The Republic can in no manner validate this kind of tool of oppression and submission of women," a communique by the group said-referring to what it has called the "green fascism" of misogyny practiced in many of France's blighted suburban housing projects under the cover of Islamic fundamentalism or Arab cultural machismo.
Jesus fucking Christ. They'd probably call it "feminist liberation from green fascism" if the police started clubbing hundreds of Arabs and throwing them into the Seine again. Instead of opposing racist immigration policies, apparently some people are more eager to "take a stand against Islam" (http://www.revleft.com/vb/its-time-take-t84005/index.html). Mind-boggling.

Unicorn
14th July 2008, 22:52
I am critical of Islam but this is pure racism. There are traditionalist Roman Catholic women who are just as subservient to their husbands as this Muslim woman. Should the Catholic women be stripped of their citizenship?

And how does it help this woman's situation to deny the citizenship?

YKTMX
16th July 2008, 03:05
a communique by the group said-referring to what it has called the "green fascism" of misogyny practiced in many of France's blighted suburban housing projects under the cover of Islamic fundamentalism or Arab cultural machismo.

Isn't this the most revealing part? I mean, the "secular" excuse would, surely, only be valid if the "misogyny" was a function of Islam. If the "misogyny" was simply an outgrowth of "Arab" machismo, how could the woman be denied citizenship, except purely on racist grounds?

Bizarre. The French Left is an absolute nightmare on these issues. A complete nightmare.

Annie K.
20th July 2008, 16:38
Should the Catholic women be stripped of their citizenship?That would be great. Especially the ones who still wear hair-bands.

I won't dare supposing that french officials are not racist. Still, don't confuse their words with those of the author of the article, and those of the spokepersons of Ni Putes Ni Soumises. They didn't spoke of arab misogyny, and didn't consider that she was "too muslim". (What is that anyway ? extremists are more muslim than others ?)

And Ni Putes Ni Soumises is not a leftist organisation. They are conservative on women rights (they don't talk about women liberation, even their name is reveling) questions, and usually tending to racism and culturalism. They are not secularists and they are not feminists. Their last president quit to join the government.

TC
20th July 2008, 16:59
I'm sorry but we're not talking about someone who just wears a hijab, we're talking about someone who is effectively under the guardianship of their patriarchal husband in such a way that precludes her from any meaningful participation in contemporary society. These types of psudo-religious practices (few people seriously consider niqabs let alone burqas to be religious requirements, rather they're signs of religious devotion to more extreme modesty) are objectively socially repressive and its legitimate to try to curtail socially repressive practices. This sort of lifestyle isn't characteristic of muslims anymore than fundamentalist mormons are characteristic of christians. I'm sorry but this is not 'pure racism' (even if its perhaps motivated by racism, i mean I doubt this would happen to mormons or amish), its not equal to wearing a cross or a yamika (sp) (something that say, simply wearing hijab with an exposed face is more an equivolent of, remember burqas aren't even worn in Saudi Arabia), this is an extemely pre-modern and necessarily coerceive life style.

At a certain point quantitive differences really become differences in quality. liberal multiculturalist relativism, at least in its full form, is not compatible with Marxism; our position is not one that limits itself that way: cultural phenomenon are not equal or neutral they can be judged on political and social levels like anything else. If this woman's living situation really were 'too muslim' then being too muslim really would be a bad thing; fortunately the overwhelming majority of muslims, not just in France or Europe but in the Middle East and central and south east asia, don't live in those conditions. At a certain point differences in quantity become differences in quality and total subordination to a husbands will, having your life revolve around one person to the exclusion of all others while essentially rendering yourself physically anonymous to everyone else, is not just a matter of someone wearing a head scarf and being patronizingly told to take it off.



Having said that, clearly denying the most seriously repressed women citizenship in France isn't helping them.

Lost In Translation
20th July 2008, 23:45
I definitely think that America should deny citizenship to people that appear to be too French. :lol:
The British might make that move first.

Anyways, this is ridiculous. "Too muslim"? What kind of people have we been degraded to :(

RedAnarchist
23rd July 2008, 10:56
The British might make that move first.

Anyways, this is ridiculous. "Too muslim"? What kind of people have we been degraded to :(

You probably weren't serious, but why would the British do that first? The relationship between British and French people is a lot more friendly than the media like to make people think.