Council Communism

[Mala Tha Testa]

yeah, so i'm just looking for opinions on Council Communism.
edit: the setiment seems to be against it or people just don't talk about it. im not really a Council Communist, and so i post it here in Learning so i can learn about it.

[Devrim]

What in particular?

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

Well, people don't talk about it because "council communism" as an independent movement doesn't exist anymore. council communism was a historical movement that came about in the most left wing of the german/dutch tendencies inside the communist international. The biggest council communist organization historically, was the KAPD - communist workers party of germ<ny - that was a pretty big split from the german communist party. After WWII it virtually dissappeared. The remnants of the council communists today are probably in left communist organizations like the international communist current.

[Q]

Well, people don't talk about it because "council communism" as an independent movement doesn't exist anymore. council communism was a historical movement that came about in the most left wing of the german/dutch tendencies inside the communist international. The biggest council communist organization historically, was the KAPD - communist workers party of germ<ny - that was a pretty big split from the german communist party. After WWII it virtually dissappeared. The remnants of the council communists today are probably in left communist organizations like the international communist current.
That begs the question: what exactly are the differences between council and left communism? I always see these terms used interchangably so I guess the differences are minimal, but what are they?

[Devrim]

That begs the question: what exactly are the differences between council and left communism? I always see these terms used interchangably so I guess the differences are minimal, but what are they?

Left communist originally meant the left wing of the Third International. We can separate it into two main tendencies, the German left, and the Italian left (in fact the left was present in many more countries but they were general orientated on the same theoretical lines as the German left).

The term council communist refers to the remnants of the German/Dutch left after the revolutionary wave had ebbed. In the theoretical confusion that followed the degeneration of the Russian revolution they ended up rejecting the idea of the party.

As Marmot said they don't really exist in any organised form today. Left communism today bases itself on the work of the left fractions of the Italian party, who in exile in France after Mussolini came to power synthesised the positions of the German and Italian lefts.

If you are interested I could expand or give you links.

Devrim

[Mala Tha Testa]

What in particular?

Devrim

mostly i was looking for how would a movement that is Council Communist control the economy and other aspects of society. i'm sorry i wasn't clear.

[Lamanov]

I suggest you visit Kurasje council communist archive, where there are few texts about council communism, as well as allot of texts by council communists.

http://www.kurasje.org/arksys/archset.htm

I wouldn't say there are "remnaints" of council communism in ICC, since there are no old militants who were council communists and active in the ICC. There are quite a number of people today on the radical left who were in some way influenced by council communism. For example, ICC considers itself the bearer of left communist tradition, including council communism, while there are groups among anarcho-syndicalists, such as the French CNT-AIT, who bear a great deal of influence by council communism, mainly by Otto Ruhle and "Unitary organisation" concept.

Council communism was one of key elements in post-war groups such as Situationist International, Solidarity Group and Socialisme ou Barbaire.

Anyway, the largest council communist organisation was not KAPD - 40 thousand members - but the workplace based AAUD - 200 thousand members.

The basic historical document of council communism is the programme of AAUD:



Program of the AAUD



December 1920

1. The AAUD fights for the class unity of the proletariat.
2. Its goal is a classless society, the first phase of which is the dictatorship of the proletariat, that is, the will of the proletariat alone determining the political and economic organization of society in its entirety, thanks to the organization of the councils.
3. The progressive realization of the council idea is the road which the growth of the self- consciousness of the proletarian class is taking. The dictators, properly speaking, are the delegates of the councils; these delegates must carry out the decisions of the councils. The councils1 can be recalled at any time by the rank and file which bestowed their mandates. There is no place for so-called leaders except as advisors.
4. The AAUD rejects all reformist and opportunist methods of struggle.
5. The AAUD is against any participation in parliamentarism, since that would mean sabotage of the council idea.
6. Likewise, the AAUD rejects all participation in the legal enterprise councils as dangerous class collaboration with the employers.
7. The AAUD is opposed to trade unionism because the latter is opposed to the council idea.
8. But the AAUD is particularly opposed in the most violent possible manner to the trade unions because they are the principal obstacles to the continuation of the proletarian revolution in Germany. They are the principal obstacles standing in the way of the unification of the proletariat as a class.
9. The goal of the AAUD is unitary organization. All of its efforts will be directed towards the attainment of this goal. Without admitting the justification for the existence of political parties (since historical development impels towards their dissolution), the AAUD does not fight against the political organization of the KAPD, whose goals and methods of struggle are also those of the AAUD, and strives to move forward alongside the KAPD in the revolutionary struggle.
10. The mission of the AAUD is to carry out the revolution in the workplace. It takes the political and economic education of the workers seriously.
11. During the phase of the conquest of political power, the Factory Organization becomes a link in the proletarian dictatorship exercised in the workplace by the factory councils, which is founded upon the Factory Organization. The purpose of the Factory Organization is to assure that political power is always and exclusively exercised by the executive council.

[Mala Tha Testa]

wow, DJ-TC thanks a lot.

[Devrim]

I wouldn't say there are "remnaints" of council communism in ICC, since there are no old militants who were council communists and active in the ICC.

Well, yes DJ, but that is because they are all dead. Jan Appael, for example, who was one of the leading council communists was involved in setting up the ICC.


Council communism was one of key elements in post-war groups such as Situationist International, Solidarity Group and Socialisme ou Barbaire.

I don't think so. Council communism is not just those who are pro communism with councils. That would include the Trotskyists even. It is a distinct political tendency, and the tendency that you refer to above was fundamentally different.


Anyway, the largest council communist organisation was not KAPD - 40 thousand members - but the workplace based AAUD - 200 thousand members.

I have seen sources which claim 250,000. I don't think that we can really describe the AAUD as council communist, nor the KAPD for that matter. It is only a matter of classification though.


The basic historical document of council communism is the programme of AAUD:

Again, I don't think so. They were not really council communists at this point.


mostly i was looking for how would a movement that is Council Communist control the economy and other aspects of society.

This is the standard. It is long though:

http://libcom.org/library/fundamental-principles-communist-production-gik

Devrim

[Unicorn]

The Dutch Council Communist Marinus van der Lubbe torched the Reichstag and was partly responsible for Hitler's coming to power. That is the main way Council Communism has impacted on history.

[Q]

The Dutch Council Communist Marinus van der Lubbe torched the Reichstag and was partly responsible for Hitler's coming to power. That is the main way Council Communism has impacted on history.

You seriously can't believe that propaganda, can you?

[Unicorn]

You seriously can't believe that propaganda, can you?
I think this describes the events accurately:

"The day after the fire, Hitler asked for and received from President Hindenburg the Reichstag Fire Decree, signed into law by Hindenburg using Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The Reichstag Fire Decree suspended most civil liberties in Germany and was used by the Nazis to ban publications not considered "friendly" to the Nazi cause.Despite the fact that Marinus van der Lubbe claimed to have acted alone in the Reichstag Fire, Hitler, after having obtained his emergency powers, announced that it was the start of a Communist plot to take over Germany. This sent the Germans into a panic and isolated the Communists further among the civilians, as well as the thousands of Communists that were imprisoned in the days following the fire, including leaders of the Communist Party of Germany on the charge that the Party was preparing to stage a putsch. With Communist electoral participation also suppressed (the Communists had previously polled 17% of the vote), the Nazis were able to increase their share of the vote in the March 5, 1933 Reichstag elections from 33% to 44%. This gave the Nazis and their allies, the German National People's Party (who won 8% of the vote) a majority of 52% in the Reichstag."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire#Political_consequences_of_the_Fire

[Leo]

Marinus van der Lubbe had been involved with council communists in the past, but he was connected to the official CP when the Reichstag fire happened.

[Q]

I think this describes the events accurately:

"The day after the fire, Hitler asked for and received from President Hindenburg the Reichstag Fire Decree, signed into law by Hindenburg using Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The Reichstag Fire Decree suspended most civil liberties in Germany and was used by the Nazis to ban publications not considered "friendly" to the Nazi cause.Despite the fact that Marinus van der Lubbe claimed to have acted alone in the Reichstag Fire, Hitler, after having obtained his emergency powers, announced that it was the start of a Communist plot to take over Germany. This sent the Germans into a panic and isolated the Communists further among the civilians, as well as the thousands of Communists that were imprisoned in the days following the fire, including leaders of the Communist Party of Germany on the charge that the Party was preparing to stage a putsch. With Communist electoral participation also suppressed (the Communists had previously polled 17% of the vote), the Nazis were able to increase their share of the vote in the March 5, 1933 Reichstag elections from 33% to 44%. This gave the Nazis and their allies, the German National People's Party (who won 8% of the vote) a majority of 52% in the Reichstag."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire#Political_consequences_of_the_Fire

Despite this is getting off topic, Hitler needed a scapegoat really. And who better than a communist, to start a witchhunt on them?

[Lamanov]

The Dutch Council Communist Marinus van der Lubbe torched the Reichstag and was partly responsible for Hitler's coming to power. That is the main way Council Communism has impacted on history.

Wow, you're not even familiar with basic modern history. Hitler was already in power. Besides, council communists including Pannekoek took an opposing stand: http://www.kurasje.org/arksys/archset.htm.


I don't think so. Council communism is not just those who are pro communism with councils. That would include the Trotskyists even. It is a distinct political tendency, and the tendency that you refer to above was fundamentally different.

I did not say that these groups were council communist, but that council communism was one of key elements in their political composition. To all of these groups councils were the center of their theory. Historically, council communism is a part of their genesis.

[Unicorn]

Wow, you're not even familiar with basic modern history. Hitler was already in power.
He was the Chancellor of Germany but he had not seized dictatorial powers.



Besides, council communists including Pannekoek took an opposing stand: http://www.kurasje.org/arksys/archset.htm.
I read Mattick's article on site and it sympathizes with Pannekoek calling him a class conscious worker who deserves the sympathies of the revolutionary proletariat. Eduard Sirach also sympathized with van der Lubbe who was a member of Sirach's group.

Small groups or individuals can't force the working class to struggle with "exemplary actions". That theory is wrong.

[Lamanov]

Bollocks. Council communists didn't support "exemplary actions": http://www.kurasje.org/arkiv/4700f.htm.


He was the Chancellor of Germany but he had not seized dictatorial powers.

Yes, and if there wasn't for those meddling kids (with infantile disorder), he wouldn't have seized them. :rolleyes:

[Mala Tha Testa]

This is the standard. It is long though:

http://libcom.org/library/fundamental-principles-communist-production-gik

Devrim

thank you as well Devrim.

[Unicorn]

Bollocks. Council communists didn't support "exemplary actions": http://www.kurasje.org/arkiv/4700f.htm.
Pannekoek did not speak for all Council Communists.

[Mala Tha Testa]

also, would the councils, replace trade and labor unions?

[Devrim]

also, would the councils, replace trade and labor unions?
Yes, the council communists believed that the unions had become intergrated into the state.

Devrim

[Mala Tha Testa]

so council communists wouldn't use entryism to make the workers in it class concious?

[Lamanov]

No, instead, they would build class-struggle organisations (like AAUD, AAUD-E) and propaganda organisations (like KAPD). (I again have to use an example of Germany, since that's the only place where council communism was a formidable force.)

In the process of building a socialist society, the wouldn't use unions or parties, but workers' councils. The system of workers' councils based on workplaces is the basis for socialism.

[Mala Tha Testa]

so what if a council communist did use said entryism, would it not be concidered council communist?

[Lamanov]

What do you mean by entryism? A worker, of course, can be a member of a yellow union. But it's crucial not to occupy a bureaucratic position or take part in union elections, because that's class collaboration.

At the same time, can you really be a member of a party that practices entryism, parliamentarism, hierarchy, while at the same time be opposed to those things?

[Mala Tha Testa]

What do you mean by entryism? A worker, of course, can be a member of a yellow union. But it's crucial not to occupy a bureaucratic position or take part in union elections, because that's class collaboration.

aight, that makes sence.
but i meant entryism to infilitrate the union and through that make the workers class concious and make it radical and stuff, but you answered my question thanks.

[Q]

What do you mean by entryism? A worker, of course, can be a member of a yellow union. But it's crucial not to occupy a bureaucratic position or take part in union elections, because that's class collaboration.

At the same time, can you really be a member of a party that practices entryism, parliamentarism, hierarchy, while at the same time be opposed to those things?

The zenith of sectarianism (http://marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/e.htm#sectarianism).

This position practically results to the point that council communists don't join the organisations where you can find the militant layers of the working class, but instead be inward study societies waiting for the revolution to happen before becoming active and spread their ideas.

Maybe there are actual active council communist organisations in the world, but those that I know in the Netherlands most clearly are not.

[Devrim]

Maybe there are actual active council communist organisations in the world, but those that I know in the Netherlands most clearly are not.

I don't think there aren't any council communist organisations any more. I am curious about which was you know.


No, instead, they would build class-struggle organisations (like AAUD, AAUD-E) and propaganda organisations (like KAPD). (I again have to use an example of Germany, since that's the only place where council communism was a formidable force.)

In the process of building a socialist society, the wouldn't use unions or parties, but workers' councils. The system of workers' councils based on workplaces is the basis for socialism.



By the 1930s this was the line. However,the KAPD existed it saw itself as a vanguard party.

Devrim

[Q]

I don't think there aren't any council communist organisations any more. I am curious about which was you know.
To be honest, I use the term interchangably with left-communism. The ICC has a few people here.

[Lamanov]

This position practically results to the point that council communists don't join the organisations where you can find the militant layers of the working class, but instead be inward study societies waiting for the revolution to happen before becoming active and spread their ideas.

What organisations?

[Q]

What organisations?
Unions, mass political parties, those kind of organisations.

[Lamanov]

How can a passive membership be an equivalent to "layers" of militant workers?

Militant workers are found in the workplaces, not in party or union offices.