Should anti-abortion groups be considered fascist?

[Comrade Rage]

I wanted to pose this question to people, because I've noticed that some leftists, while they may be opposed to anti-abortion groups, fail to recognize that these groups are fascist in nature, meaning

They seek to disenfranchize a specific group (women) of a right.
They seek to use state power to enforce their morals on an otherwise unwilling populace.
They are extremely intolerant of criticism and self criticism, and
These groups have used bonehead tactics such as harrassment, intimidation, and petty violence. They've even taken it a step further and bombed clinics.
.

In my opinion, not only are these groups hate groups, but they are inextricably linked to the fundamentalist Christian theocratic agenda, who's goals are to, in essence, force Christianity on 'non believers' and simultaneously force a more hardline and intolerant brand of Christianity on existing Christians.

My point:
These groups should be looked at as no better than the National Socialist Movement or National Alliance, or any other extreme nationalist movement.
These groups are even more dangerous, because they are simultaneously using right-wing intimidation tactics while harnessing political power and even funding.

I also think that anti-fascist actions should be carried out at their events and at their buildings, and their members should be monitored.

What's your take?

[Dr Mindbender]

sorry to be blunt but this is a stupid question.

A vast proportion of anti-choicers are religious bodies with multi-ethnicity members.

They are reactionary to the core but how the hell can they be fascist?

This liberal throwing around of the word fascist is hurting the left.

[spartan]

They seek to disenfranchize a specific group (women) of a right.
Yes but they say that the pro-choicers are disenfranchising the rights of unborn babies.

They seek to use state power to enforce their morals on an otherwise unwilling populace.
They accuse us pro-choicers of exactly the same thing saying that "Liberal" pro-choice morals are being forced on people in schools and by the media etc.

They are extremely intolerant of criticism and self criticism, and
And we aren't?

Come on we restrict people who are against abortion even if they believe in Socialism, and we are just as intolerant to them as they are to us.

I am pro-choice but i think that it is a bit hypocritical to say the least accusing them of things that we are also guilty of.

And as for calling them Fascists no way man!

This overusage of the word Fascism is leading it to become quite a meaningless term and will probably lead people to accepting it one day as positive as everyone else is against it.

I can understand where you are coming from Brick and i too am often frustrated by the anti-abortion crowd but calling them Fascists is a step to far especially seeing how they would probably call us Fascists as well:lol:

[Comrade Rage]

Maybe we should refer to them as 'hate groups' then.

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

sorry to be blunt but this is a stupid question.

A vast proportion of anti-choicers are religious bodies with multi-ethnicity members.

They are reactionary to the core but how the hell can they be fascist?

This liberal throwing around of the word fascist is hurting the left.

fascism and racism aren't inseperable. Despite being very common bedfellows, they're not mutually inclusive.

[Red October]

They aren't fascists. They may be far-right (though as you can see in OI, not always), but being anti-choice does not make one a fascist. Fascism is a specific ideology, not a label to stick on every right-wing asshole we don't like.

[RaiseYourVoice]

And we aren't?

Come on we restrict people who are against abortion even if they believe in Socialism, and we are just as intolerant to them as they are to us.
Thats bullshit. This is a discussion board for internal discussion. NO GROUP that wants internal discussion tolerates other people, thats just common sense and has nothing to do with tolerance.

It depends if the left is tolerant of critisism in real life and i would say most groups sure are. ( actually any leftist group has to be since no critisism = no progress)

[TC]

It really depends on what your definition of "fascist" is.

If you're using the strictest definition of Fascism as in the philosophical/theoretical of Benito Mussolini as described in The Doctrine of Fascism and the practice of the Italian fascists, then no they're not fascists. Neither however would the BNP, the Nazis, the Spanish Fascists, etc.

If you use the strict official Soviet Communist/Marxist-Leninist definition of Fascism as described by the 3rd international, as the open terroristic application of street violence by finance capital to prevent a proletarian revolutionary party from seizing power, then they're again not Fascist. This broader definition of fascism however, while including the Nazis as well as the Italian and Spanish Fascists, would exclude the BNP, KKK, National Front, Nazbols, and most contemporary 'fascist' movements.


However, if by "Fascist" you mean, more generally, totalitarian chauvinists who celebrate idealized masculine family values, the subordination of the individual to an abstract community or national good, and a hierarchical value of some human demographics more than others protecting those interests to the exclusion of others, only then the Italian Fascists and Nazis are included, as are the BNP and KKK, and...anti-abortionists.

[TC]

They aren't fascists. They may be far-right (though as you can see in OI, not always), but being anti-choice does not make one a fascist. Fascism is a specific ideology, not a label to stick on every right-wing asshole we don't like.

Fascism is a specific ideology but Communists have never restricted the use of the term to those who adhere to the specific ideology of Fascism...We call Nazis fascists when they don't adhere to that ideology and we call Neo-Nazis fascists even though they don't even adhere to the original Communist definition of Fascism.

Simply put the term has evolved past being defined as "Member of the Italian Fascist Party."

[Dr Mindbender]

fascism and racism aren't inseperable. Despite being very common bedfellows, they're not mutually inclusive.

i said multi ethnicity which could also apply not just to race but other groups like jews or white travellers for example who arent necessarilly a different race but none the less a group that has suffered discrimination.

In any case i cant think of an example of fascism which hasnt had at least some racist synomity. Even mussolini's fascism had a very chauvinist outlook on foreign cultures and peoples of other race.

[chimx]

Simply put the term has evolved past being defined as "Member of the Italian Fascist Party."

Yes, but it hasn't evolved so much so as to mean "anybody I disagree with". Fascism is still regarded as a despotic racist political movement. Apply it to abortion opponents is illogical.

[Autonome-Antifa]

Yes in Holland they ate getting bashed every time they try to go on the streets.

[Decolonize The Left]

I think it would do all of us well to refer to Tragic Clown's post, number 8, and the differentiation between different uses of the term "fascist/fascism." We would first need to agree on what form of the term we are using before we can discuss who merits such a definition.

But, generally speaking, we won't have such a discussion (as few are ever interested in clarifying issues on this board) and so we must accept that we are probably using fascism in the most general sense if we are referring to anti-abortionists...

My personal take: no, they aren't fascists. They are reactionary, chauvinist, zealots... but not fascists.

- August

[jaffe]

Yes in Holland they ate getting bashed every time they try to go on the streets.

No they're not.

[Holden Caulfield]

No they're not.

no offence Jaffe, im sure you do something of worth, but your posts almost always seem to be cynical oneliners that add nothing to the debate and are almost starting to add up to spam,

please try and back up, expand, or better phrase your points in future,

thanks

and by the way i agree with this


My personal take: no, they aren't fascists. They are reactionary, chauvinist, zealots... but not fascists.

[jaffe]

holden caulfield read your PM box.
I don't think they're fascist but most anti-abortion groups have the same patriarchal views as fascists do. But that doesn't makes them fascists perse.

[Holden Caulfield]

from Orwell's 'What is Fascism'



The word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else... almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’.

[Sasha]

No they're not.

yep, almost weekly the anti-choice bastards are harrasing women in holland @ one of the clinics and at least once a year they take to the street to march under police protection and they get almost no opposition what so ever. So jaffe is right at critising A-A for his bulshit claim.
they take to the streets with out almost any problems (also because the pro-choice people organising the main oposition are imposible to work with)

and besides that we see with the rise to power of the christian right (christenunie) that the politicians hang their ears to the anti-choice fundamentelist organisation VBOK. Even the Socialist Party is bussy helping undermining the women rights (the main reason i dont vote for them any more)

[Holden Caulfield]

So jaffe is right at critising A-A for his bulshit claim.

he may well have been, i said he should have expanded it, like you did here.

not all of us have the joys of being dutch you know,

[Sasha]

he may well have been, i said he should have expanded it, like you did here.

you'r right (sometimes i feel like an on-line babysit for both :lol:)


not all of us have the joys of being dutch you know,

yeah, my condolences :laugh: but as you probilly can read from my posts it's not all fun and games here though

[Colonello Buendia]

they shouldn't, They are usually members of the christian right and are reactionary to the core, they aren't actually fascists

[Pogue]

In this case, does reactionary mean "someone we don't agree with"?

[Pogue]

By that I'm basicaly asking, does anyone have for me a clear meaning for reactionary, or it is being used the way people label anything they don't agree with as 'fascist', as someone mentioned before on this forum, and as Orwell stated.

[Drink Activist]

Oh please. Comrade, we can't make people worse than they are in real. Although they are wrong for me, you and thousands others it doesn't make them fascists.

[TC]

By that I'm basicaly asking, does anyone have for me a clear meaning for reactionary,

A reactionary is someone who wants to restore an older, less socially advanced, regressive social order in reaction to the contemporary social status quo..in contrast a conservative is someone who merely wants to conserve the current social order against more socially progressive challenges.

Someone who wants to increase restrictions on abortion thus is a reactionary whereas someone who, for instance, opposes gay marriage (outside of those places where it is legal) is a conservative.

(of course, 'conservative' also has a more specialized meaning referring to the political ideology that can be characterized as traditionalist patriarchal and nationalist values with elements of classic liberalism, since parties who are conservative in the ideological sense are typically also conservative in the general sense or had been for a large part of modern european history. )

[Pogue]

A reactionary is someone who wants to restore an older, less socially advanced, regressive social order in reaction to the contemporary social status quo..in contrast a conservative is someone who merely wants to conserve the current social order against more socially progressive challenges.

Someone who wants to increase restrictions on abortion thus is a reactionary whereas someone who, for instance, opposes gay marriage (outside of those places where it is legal) is a conservative.

(of course, 'conservative' also has a more specialized meaning referring to the political ideology that can be characterized as traditionalist patriarchal and nationalist values with elements of classic liberalism, since parties who are conservative in the ideological sense are typically also conservative in the general sense or had been for a large part of modern european history. )

Thank you very much comrade.

[nuisance]

i said multi ethnicity which could also apply not just to race but other groups like jews or white travellers for example who arent necessarilly a different race but none the less a group that has suffered discrimination.
Jews are a race and also 'white travellers, do you mean irish travellers? Are also consider a race of people.


In any case i cant think of an example of fascism which hasnt had at least some racist synomity. Even mussolini's fascism had a very chauvinist outlook on foreign cultures and peoples of other race.
Well done, beens fascism is founded on the idea of struggle for people and nations, therefore of course they are going to look down on other nationalites- what better reason to gain support for national expansionism?
Racialism isn't a key component of fascism, Italian fascism that is, which is considered 'proper' fascism.



However under pressure from Nazi Germany, the Fascist regime eventually did take on racist ideology, such as promoting the concept of Italy settling Africa to create a white civilization in Africa and handing out five-year criminal sentences for Italians caught in a sexual or marital relationship with native Africans. For those colonial peoples who were not loyal, vicious repression was used, such as in Ethiopia, where in 1937, native Ethiopian settlements were burned to the ground by Italian armed forces. Under Fascism, native Africans were allowed to join the Italian armed forces as colonial forces and appeared in Fascist propaganda


Race! It is a feeling, not a reality: ninety-five percent, at least, is a feeling. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today. [...] National pride has no need of the delirium of race.

Also the racialism displayed by the Nazis is just one of the arguements against them being called fascists.

[redSHARP]

should be stomped out of existence!! fuck them all!