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nobullshit
12th July 2008, 16:01
Hello, I was told to post the following in what I previously posted in your "introductions" forum here, because two members advised me that posting it here would actually be noticed whereas in introductions it would be unnoticed.
I was browsing through certain articles on the internet about communism as I am very much interested in the subject. To say the very least it was not exactly the easiest topic to research on: you guys got all sorts of confusing lango that for the most part the common woring man you so righteously claim to be representing would not understand nor car for.
Terms like "bourgeoisie", "proletariat", and other such terms that has origins tracing back to 19th century Europe during and age when industrialism widely swept through the continent. Some old Prussian guy lays back and wonders how he can create an economic theory that'll shock society with inevident class antagonisms and lead to civil strife that continues to shock the world.
Don't get me wrong - I am no self-certified capitalist at all. Rather, I am independent: people should be free to do what they want in life, whether it be work in a factory as a wage slave for next to nothing or live in a commune where everything is divided up equally amongst the "comrades".
I come from a small town in Tennessee about an hour north of Memphis. I grew up on rural territory, on farmland, where the true attitude of Americans is quite evident wherever you meet one of its fine town citizens. Truly independent, distrustful of the government and just as much so as the corporations driving out the mom-and-pop shops (I believe you guys call these shops "petit-bourgeois"). But despite the independence we so enjoy so much, they continue to work hard regardless of the amount they receive on their check or how much it gets them steamed that they're paying huge taxes to their federal government that have done jack shit for them.
I now live in Indianapolis, where I work. I have a family that includes a wife and three very beautiful children. To say the least, my life is going great. But this is of course not the case for the so many more unfortunate ones in the world who sleep at night with an empty stomach, malnourished, unsure if the next day they will be killed, raped, stolen, or just dead from starvation.
Communists propose solutions to these hardcore problems that continue to plague the third world. There are your communists who say "command economy", anarchists who say "gift economy", and your social democrats that say "reform". Which on is proper?
But as for the working man in America and around the globe, how do you expect them to support you and your mission? A propaganda campaign? Encouraging the workers to attend education rallies? Increasing education among the revolutionary youth? Because you guys sure aren't pulling them into your little movement with your infighting, your usage of archaic lingo from centuries past, or even your denying your own proclaimed communist countries such as China as being communist.
I am here on revleft to learn. Hopefully you guys can see that and not be too harsh. But these are serious questions.

Thanks.
-Paul

#FF0000
12th July 2008, 16:24
Communists propose solutions to these hardcore problems that continue to plague the third world. There are your communists who say "command economy", anarchists who say "gift economy", and your social democrats that say "reform". Which on is proper?Depends on whether you're a communist, anarchist, or social democrat. :lol:


But as for the working man in America and around the globe, how do you expect them to support you and your mission? A propaganda campaign? Encouraging the workers to attend education rallies? Increasing education among the revolutionary youth? Because you guys sure aren't pulling them into your little movement with your infighting, your usage of archaic lingo from centuries past, or even your denying your own proclaimed communist countries such as China as being communist.

Man, you're my new best friend. We're gonna go hang out at the carnival and get our pictures taken and eat cotton candy and stuff. I wish I could say you're wrong about that, but you just pointed out what I think is one of the biggest problems with leftism today. Perhaps someone else can tell me what's being done in their area, because up here there's precious little.

EDIT: Actually, I do see a lot of stuff going on with "education among the revolutionary youth". There's a good number of student radical organizations, but that's about all I can think of.

F9
12th July 2008, 17:46
Communists propose solutions to these hardcore problems that continue to plague the third world. There are your communists who say "command economy", anarchists who say "gift economy", and your social democrats that say "reform". Which on is proper?
for the first question it will just show to you that everyone says his oppinion,everyone will take his ideology stand as the proper so you wont get a clear point to it,the best you can do is to search the thing in books etc and build your own opinion and not another person opinion,having your own will make you more confident of it and more sure!;)


But as for the working man in America and around the globe, how do you expect them to support you and your mission? A propaganda campaign? Encouraging the workers to attend education rallies? Increasing education among the revolutionary youth? Because you guys sure aren't pulling them into your little movement with your infighting, your usage of archaic lingo from centuries past, or even your denying your own proclaimed communist countries such as China as being communist.


china isnt and never was communist country,anyway to the point now.
Yes almost all of what you say must be done to "educate" workers and all the people,we should try to pass it to the kids for start,educate them early,then the workers,we should tell them what we represent and explain them so they understand in what unfair world we live,some might even think that capitalism is fair!:closedeyes:
Try to pass our ideas to workers and proletarians should be one of our major aims,if we have among us the workers we have nothing to fear.

Fuserg9:star:

trivas7
12th July 2008, 18:08
No one can tell you which one is "proper" -- even if there is such an animal. Thanks for elucidating the state of mind of a typical Tennessean, despite my misgiving on a score of red-neck-type issues I believe this embodies the mind set of many Americans. That you can entertain ideas radically opposed to them speaks well of you independent-mindedness and for that I salute you.

Yes, the variety and sectarianism on RL to me is also overwhelming, but there it is -- we humans are a contentious lot. I'm reminded of the scene in "The Life of Brian" where followers of the 'People's Liberation Front' argue with 'Front for People's Liberation' who oppose the 'Liberation of the People Front'...

Schrödinger's Cat
13th July 2008, 06:46
Rather, I am independent: people should be free to do what they want in life, whether it be work in a factory as a wage slave for next to nothing or live in a commune where everything is divided up equally amongst the "comrades".Various self-declared (and posthumously recognized) socialist individualists share this same sentiment. Although to be a wage slave the alternatives must be adequately displaced; thus someone could not be a wage slave anymore than they could a chattel slave. Working for someone else can be divided from the situation.



or even your denying your own proclaimed communist countries such as China as being communist.This strikes me as an odd statement considering the high level of intelligence noticable throughout the rest of your post. It's quite evident that China is not communist anymore than North Korea is a People's Democratic Republic.

gla22
13th July 2008, 15:51
But as for the working man in America and around the globe, how do you expect them to support you and your mission? A propaganda campaign? Encouraging the workers to attend education rallies? Increasing education among the revolutionary youth? Because you guys sure aren't pulling them into your little movement with your infighting, your usage of archaic lingo from centuries past,

Couldn't agree with you more. Infighting has destroyed and weakened movements in the past.
I think we need updated terminology or at least use the right one:

bourgeoisie:Capitalist
proletariat: worker
petty-bourgeoisie: self-employed or white collar
lumpen-proletariat: criminals

ect.

Annie K.
13th July 2008, 17:21
But as for the working man in America and around the globe, how do you expect them to support you and your mission?All communists don't think they have a "mission". And many of "us" don't expect the working man in America (it's more likely elsewhere on the globe) to support us.

I don't think education of the people is a sustainable dynamic, because it implies too much authoritarian relations between revolutionnaries. We can't fight alienation with alienated means.
The only realistic option I see is an offensive insurrectionnal practice in the margins of the capitalist society, based on systematic experiment of socially unstable situations. We can't expand the political living mass to a critic point by with the remote promise of the end of the prehistory. The proletariat won't recognize himself just because we tell the workers that it will. But we can offer to us and to the passer by the taste of a non-commercial humanity. And that will destroy him for sure.

If think too that our terminology must be replaced by a unideological language.
Bourgeoisie : die, **** !
proletariat: those who speak of revolution or class struggle without explicitly refering to the everyday life, without understanding what is subversive in love and positive in the refusal of all constraints, those have a corpse in their mouths.
petty-bourgeoisie: die, **** !
lumpen-proletariat: die, **** !

etc. But that is nothing new.

_________________________
I've seen these bastards in Easy Rider, but I didn't think they were real.

Pirate turtle the 11th
13th July 2008, 17:35
I really dont see why we should dumb ourselfs down.

People on the whole aint stupid.

Im sure the average worker can understand means of production.
We can explain it too other workers and they will understand we dont need to turn into a communist version of newsround or fox news.

Annie K.
13th July 2008, 18:13
Raymond Aron was a dog and understood means of production too. It isn't sufficient.

Pirate turtle the 11th
13th July 2008, 18:49
Raymond Aron was a dog and understood means of production too. It isn't sufficient.

Please expand.

Annie K.
13th July 2008, 20:16
Understanding the basic concepts of marxism don't make anyone revolutionnary.

Being able to understand the basic concepts of marxism don't make anyone interested enough to try.

trivas7
13th July 2008, 23:39
Understanding the basic concepts of marxism don't make anyone revolutionnary.

Being able to understand the basic concepts of marxism don't make anyone interested enough to try.
But understanding the basic concepts of Marxism does make one class-conscious. And all revolutionaries must take this first step, no? This is not an inconsiderable achievement IMO.

Annie K.
14th July 2008, 01:47
"If you want to be a hero, well just follow me" ?

No. One can understand the concepts and not agree with the analysis, of course.
But there is something much worse. I don't dare to speak about it here. Maybe another day.

Here's a hint. In europe, the communist and socialist parties before the second war, and the communist and trotskyist parties after, broadly presented and explained their marxisms to the working class, and never achieved to create a self conscious and revolutionnary class.