Marx, anarcism, and your public library

[Zozothedog]

I really dont understand how every (well not everyone) runs around forgeting that mister Marx states that capitalism is a means to a socialst state, and from there eventually a truely communal, communist state. Communisim is NOT authorative, Marx did not even consider him self a Marxist, as I recall from my history classes he feared radicalism, and wrong enderpatration. The Bolvshvics of russia as well as Cuba or any other socilist state that is mistakenly called communists are not what marx had in mind. To belive that Marx was or advocated a totalirain state is assinine. The guy if anything advocated a anarchist state, the eventuall goal is to wither away the state, to have no state is Anarchy. Fedalism gives way to capitalism, capitalism gives way to socialism, and then (thinking as a utopinist) a communal society with no state. Even in our Capitlist state (the US) there are little outposts of socilism at work, that is the use of the funds of the collective for a social means, these could also be considered to most usefull and succefull programs (public schools, librarys, police, ect) , I'd love to see how private ownsership would do with regards to fire departments, police, and education. **The US would much better off privatising (that is being truelly capitlist) all social programs, I am sure the masses could afford all they needed and everything would be better off....*note* I was being sarcastic.

I trully do not understand the thinking of a person who values life as a commodity and a means to produce capitol, I really cant understand that, if you have a good way of exsplaining that I'd love to hear it.

[email protected]

[peoplenotprofits]

Without the department of thought, who will think?

[Zozothedog]

are you using Orwell to make fun of socalism, even though Orwell was a socalist? I dont fully understand that comment, fill me in thanks!

zozo

[WalterBennet]

Actually,what peoplenotprofits means is that the goverment controls what people think,if they would stop doing that,the people wouldn't think (sarcasme..).

[peoplenotprofits]

What I mean is think for yourself.
No one owes anyone anything.
No one deserves anything.
No one is obligated to anything.
No one has the "authority" to initiate force.

"Without the 'government' to wipe my ass, who would?"

stop trying to depend on some fictional entity, "government" for everything.




(Edited by peoplenotprofits at 12:51 am on Jan. 2, 2003)


(Edited by peoplenotprofits at 12:52 am on Jan. 2, 2003)


(Edited by peoplenotprofits at 12:53 am on Jan. 2, 2003)

[Zozothedog]

anarchist always sound like a bad robert frost poem, anarchy is unpraticle, and imposible, a "free societ" that is no goverment or the "fiction of goverment" is impossible, goverment is a means to a modern end, with out the evil "myth" creation goverment, you wouldnt be using this computer, you wouldnt have anything, every modern thing, every convience, everything you need, including domesticated foods, (meats, vegs, ect ect ect,) all technologies, are a direct result of societ, and communal exchange, IE GOVERMENT, quit being so god damn utopinistic and realize you need the goverment, while I would love not to have big brother or any force to hinder my life, I have come to relize that it is all part of the "social contract" that we have all signed as a communal species, all things tend towards choas, choas hinders life and productivity, hinderence of life is undesirable, therfor order is necasarry, I enjoy my car, I enjoy my bread, I enjoy my clean water, blah blah blah nevermind

[Zozothedog]

PS. I am not necasarrly calling you anarchists, you just got me thinking, sorry for the rant, I dont mean to point fingers and stuff

Zozo

[peoplenotprofits]

Quote: from Zozothedog on 8:39 am on Jan. 2, 2003
anarchist always sound like a bad robert frost poem, anarchy is unpraticle, and imposible, a "free societ" that is no goverment or the "fiction of goverment" is impossible, goverment is a means to a modern end, with out the evil "myth" creation goverment, you wouldnt be using this computer, you wouldnt have anything, every modern thing, every convience, everything you need, including domesticated foods, (meats, vegs, ect ect ect,)



Ahh this is a classic non sequitur."The reason the West has been able to amass great amounts of wealth is due to the structure of 'law' and 'government'.




all technologies, are a direct result of societ, and communal exchange, IE GOVERMENT,



bzzz wrong. "society" or "government" has never produced any wealth. Individuals produce wealth through the transforming of natural resources into capital.It's pretty hard for nonexistant enitities to produce anything Because they are just a myth.



quit being so god damn utopinistic and realize you need the goverment,



Without the department of Creation, Who would create?





while I would love not to have big brother or any force to hinder my life, I have come to relize that it is all part of the "social contract" that we have all signed as a communal species,


Haha, Yeah "social contract" another myth right along with "government"


all things tend towards choas, choas hinders life and productivity, hinderence of life is undesirable, therfor order is necasarry, I enjoy my car, I enjoy my bread, I enjoy my clean water, blah blah blah nevermind


Great enjoy all those thats fine.Just please get over Your Grand Delusion about "government"

[Zozothedog]

with out the "myth of goverment" to protect your precious capital, you would have nothing, you capi's and anarchist capi's have no problem exsploting who ever to gain profit and capital, what is stop you from exsploting eachother through coercion, the myth you call goverment with out you'd all steal from each other and plunder, like little pirates

[Som]

Quote: from Zozothedog on 8:39 am on Jan. 2, 2003
anarchist always sound like a bad robert frost poem, anarchy is unpraticle, and imposible, a "free societ" that is no goverment or the "fiction of goverment" is impossible, goverment is a means to a modern end, with out the evil "myth" creation goverment, you wouldnt be using this computer, you wouldnt have anything, every modern thing, every convience, everything you need, including domesticated foods, (meats, vegs, ect ect ect,) all technologies, are a direct result of societ, and communal exchange, IE GOVERMENT, quit being so god damn utopinistic and realize you need the goverment, while I would love not to have big brother or any force to hinder my life, I have come to relize that it is all part of the "social contract" that we have all signed as a communal species, all things tend towards choas, choas hinders life and productivity, hinderence of life is undesirable, therfor order is necasarry, I enjoy my car, I enjoy my bread, I enjoy my clean water, blah blah blah nevermind


Ah, another trail of ignorance, why im not so tired of responding to the same thing is quite odd.

"all technologies, are a direct result of societ, and communal exchange, IE GOVERMENT"

This is the biggest leap of a lack of logic ive seen in awhile.
Government is authority simply enough, government is not the emobodiment of order, not 'communal exchange'.

Why is the state somehow the creator of all technology? technology and invention is the result of individuals and groups working together, not some coercive state overshadowing them.

"I have come to relize that it is all part of the "social contract" that we have all signed as a communal species, all things tend towards choas"

Anarchy is order, not chaos, a social contract is not the demand to be subjugated against your will.

[peoplenotprofits]

Quote: from Zozothedog on 10:15 pm on Jan. 2, 2003
with out the "myth of goverment" to protect your precious capital, you would have nothing, you capi's and anarchist capi's have no problem exsploting who ever to gain profit and capital, what is stop you from exsploting eachother through coercion, the myth you call goverment with out you'd all steal from each other and plunder, like little pirates




Haha this is laughable.
If you have capital and you think you need it protected,protect is yourself.
Reality is that the "government" is running a protection racket and its absurd to say the "law" protects anyone.
Scribbles on a piece of paper doesnt stop a bullet or a tank. Mr. "Law" doesnt sweep down and protect you.
As far as what you said earlier about "needing 'government'".You can't just "need" something into existence.
"We need it, therefore it is." Bad logic kids
Oh yeah and Mr. Som as right on in that last post.Good thing someone has a clue of whats going on in here.

[Zozothedog]

ok I'll just agree with you're great and awnserfilled idea, the world is a perfect place, we dont need goverment it controlls us, therfor let us have NO goverment at all cuz everything would be ok, the world would progress through the honesty of all, yeah...that'd work..... cuz I know the world is full of honest hard working indivuduals who work hard, but are hampered by the big bad evil goverment

[Som]

Ah, so when you have no argument or sense of reason, you resort to sarcasm, further showing your simplistic ignorance.

[peoplenotprofits]

haha concede concede

[Zozothedog]

I really do not understand what this "argument" is about, I do not understand how I am defending goverment as a whole, you as extremly rational being are denouncing all goverments it appears, while I must use common sence to defend any form of goverment, I am defending the US, the USSR, hitler, or ANY goverment, but all goverments as a whole, this is retarded I do not understand what you belive I am trying to defend, for some reason you would even denounce a "goverment" for what ever its purpose, your argument is assinie and you are just twisting words, your nilistic attitude defise logic, move to the Congo, or the republic of Congo or what ever the hell its called now, and see how a little anarchy in the streets takes you, see how the absencts of structure affects the shape and integraty of soceity. Anarchy is the unpratical utopinistic idology of idiots (excuse the punn) I will no longer post under this heading since it has come to a retorical argument of peoples not using common sence. again I do not know what goverment you feel I am defending,

[Zozothedog]

oh and to all you anarchists, your all just fat kids that shop at hot topic, and sow anarchy A's on your stupid spikey denim jackets, at least hitler, stalin, and every other auhtority that you denouce as goverment, had style,... passe bastards, the movment is dead, it lost to reason and necessity.

[Som]

Ah, Its great that your so confident in something that you dont understand in the slightest.

Does the congo have communist economics? how bout independent communes? or most importantly, a lack of authority?

No, then its not anarchist.

You call anarchy an 'ideology of idiots', but I really doubt you could even begin to understand the writings of people like Proudhoun, or Kropotkin, but then again you won't even consider such a thing, because people such as yourselves don't seem to care to learn about anything you ramble off at.


Ah, Great that I'm wasting my time on grammarless nits.

[Zozothedog]

look I am an anarchist at heart, but I relize that its impossible and unreasonalbe, why not advocate for a probalbe goal, sure I may never be famous movie star, but maybe I can just get laid a lot, thats the attidude that is needed,

BTW, the congo refrence has nothing to do with the "govermnet of congo" it was used to illestrate a point of choase, that I belive anarchy woudl bring,

"bling bling"

[Som]

Except for the fact that no anarchist, except a few nits, wants chaos.

I said absolutly nothing about the government of congo, Warlords and militias competeting for power has absolutly nothing to do with anarchy. Again you show your ignorance.

Its not impossible, or unreasonable, its does not bring chaos, for two years in the 30s barcelona became run under anarchist principles, it was not choatic, it was not unreasonable, hell, industrial output even increased. But of course an ignorant nit like you will never even give it a second thought, It seems you will forever need a cop to tell you what to do.

But again, I guess you'll just stick with your unconditional and irrational arguements against it.

(ah, got me to take a hostile tone over this, quite an accomplishment i would think, as i'm normally overly civil, but I guess I felt the need to respond in kind to the likes of such)

[peoplenotprofits]

Quote: from Zozothedog on 10:15 am on Jan. 5, 2003
look I am an anarchist at heart, but I relize that its impossible and unreasonalbe, why not advocate for a probalbe goal, sure I may never be famous movie star, but maybe I can just get laid a lot, thats the attidude that is needed,

BTW, the congo refrence has nothing to do with the "govermnet of congo" it was used to illestrate a point of choase, that I belive anarchy woudl bring,

"bling bling"


Here is the typical Authoritarian reasoning.
"If everyone were allowed to do whatever they wanted because they wanted their freedom of choice, this country would be a total anarchy,completely chaotic!!"

lets break this down.
"If everyone were allowed....."

False premise: It presumes that everyone is not allowed to do "whatever they want"


"to do whatever they wanted because they wanted their freedom of choice......"

False Assumption:People already do have their freedom of choice.People do whatever they want,reguardless of what "laws" the "government"-cultists pass.

"this country would be a total anarchy,completely chaotic!!....."

Non sequitur: there is no reason to assume that complete chaos would result if the "government"-cultists gave up their lust for control and authority.

Therefore we already live in anarchy.The "government" has as much of a right to have authority over you than some other gang or mob.