Avoiding war on Irak - Seems inevitable!

[Panamarisen]

Seems whatever we do is or will never be enough to avoid criminal situations like this one.

Bushyguy hasn´t got enough with the actual ASSASSINATION of more than half a million Iraqui children because of the embargo. He NEEDS more to support his unavoidable necessity of "power".

As some people from the very U$ are already doing, maybe the only way to stop this madness is to create a really huge human shield inside Irak so to avoid the massacre Bushy wants.

PS: For sure, Bushyguy is having a nice, peaceful Christmas/New Year eve right now.


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Larissa]

What is truly shameful is the lack of real arguments bushyguy has to start a war against Iraq. Saddam oponed the doors of his country to UN inspectors who found no evidence of alleged nuclear wepons. Additionally, one of these inspectors said that if the US Government has concrete evidence against Iraq they should deliver this critical info.

No such critical info has been presented to the UN up to date and the Pentagon has planned Pentagon plan to send extra troops to the Persian Gulf starting in January.

It is clear to me (and I believe to most of us) that he is still seeking some sort of personal "revenge" against Saddam who, in Bushyguy words, is the man who tried to kill his father...

Bushyguy IS quite a dangerous crazy guy... or maybe he is so idiot that he imagines we are all as idiot as he is?

[Panamarisen]

Guess he knows people are not idiots, but he doesn´t care a shit, because he knows he got the power to do whatever he wants -at least in the meantime.
Also, most yanks are completely brainwashed, so they believe any biased info the media give them.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Larissa]

LOL! :biggrin:
I love that point of view Panamarisen!

[Stormin Norman]

Larissa,

Check the ignorant statements thread. You have landed in the hall of fame.

[Stormin Norman]

Here is a presentation that I came up with back in October. The amounts of materials listed are what we think he has. The report Saddam released 2 weeks ago halved some of these numbers, claiming they had all been destroyed and offering nothing in the way of collaboration. Some of the materials, like many of the nerve agents, the report denied all together. Fact is, by understating his amounts he is in material breech. Furthermore, the U.N. resolution places the burden of proof on Saddam. He must offer credible proof that he has destroyed what he did have, something he has not done. Hussien is history. The war starts in a few weeks. He can chose to die or live in exile. My fear is that he will resort to a scorched earth policy. He has shown that he will. Remember the Kuwaiti oil fields? Take a look. I present a pretty clear picture of the danger we are facing. Definetely look at the effects of some of the agents Saddam is known to have. This isn't a funny game of let's make fun of the monkey president. This is a matter of life and death. Why do you fail to see that your life is at stake?

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...m=22&topic=1001 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=1001)

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 6:21 am on Jan. 1, 2003)

[Larissa]

OMG. What would I do without you!

BTW I am aware about the "epidemiological disaster" that threatens the US because I translated many docs about the American new production of smallpox vaccines in order to prevent their people about this (Docs translated for the US Dept of Health and Human Services)

Anyway, I was actually referring to the fact that the Amercian Gov never presented the evidence that the UN inspectors requested.

Besides, I do believe Bush wants to attack Iraq no matter what reason supports his decision.


Quote: from Stormin Norman on 3:02 pm on Dec. 31, 2002
Larissa,

Check the ignorant statements thread. You have landed in the hall of fame.

[Stormin Norman]

WMD aside, oil is a good enough reason for me. Do you think will should allow our industry to come to a halt while some autocrat in the Middle East smuggles oil and starves his own people in order to develop extensive weapons programs and build palaces commemorating himself? I say kill the fucker and let the people of Iraq profit from his oil. I thought you would support the people taking over the industry. Why are you guys not consistent on this. Oh that's right, because it's also in America's interest. You would allow people to startve just out of spite for America. I think I am beginning to get the picture.

[Larissa]

Stormin,

What is your honest opinion about the US lab's scientific research using the rest of the world as guinea pigs to test "new drugs"?

Have you got a clue how many people die from infectious diseases because of this anti-human & non ethic practice?

[Stormin Norman]

Enlighten me with facts, I'm willing to learn. Just don't feed me a load of bullshit, and I think we will get along just fine.

[Larissa]

No problem, but no need to be rude, ok?

I used to work for Schering-Plough's Research Institute in Argentina. This lab carried on different trials testing new drugs that were being developed. These drugs were tested in people from Latin American and African countries. According to the results, these drugs were approved by the FDA to be used in the US and world-wide or not.

But in the meanwhile, many people died because of those drugs that did not work, why aren't these drugs tested on animals?

Why are they tested in our people?

It's not easy to live in undeveloped countries. Not everyone in this world has the privilege of having a high cultural & knowledge level, but that doesn't mean we have to be used as animals.

Wherever in the world you are, I wish you a Happy New Year.

[Stormin Norman]

Do you have documentation of this?

Sorry about being a little harsh. I know of Dalcon-Shield. Trust me I am not under the illusion that corpoartions always act in the interest of the public. I think criminal acts ought to be treated as criminal acts. I do not condone direct government intervention in the marketplace, but I support the death penalty for people who do enormous amounts of irreparable harm.

Corporations are run by regular people who at times forget the magnitude of the decisions they make. If they slip up and it results in harm they should pay like everyone else. Perhaps if the justice system did its job, we wouldn't have some of these problems.

Again, I am sorry for the language and general tone at the onset of this conversation. Accept my apology, please. I have never spoken with you before, and I have no reason to hate you. You seem nice enough. Their is no reason for me to become uncivilized with you.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 7:13 am on Jan. 1, 2003)

[Panamarisen]

SN, obviously someone like Sadam shouldn´t rule a country, but it´s also obvious that there are better ways to change situations...

The kind of war Bushyguy wants to make on Irak is just immoral, to say the least. How a country like the U$, wasting an astonishing quantity of money in the military, having such a lot of chemical, biological and nuclear weaponry, dares to ask, or, even worse, FORCE some other country to get rid of its own? How the U$ dares to say who are the "good folks" and who the "bad folks"? How a country nowdays dares to make "preventive" wars, as dangerous as it is?

You say this is a matter of life and death. Right, and specially it will be for even more Iraki children (whose lives seems don´t deserve a shit)...

Sadam shouldn´t rule Irak. Nor Bushyguy rule the U$.

PS: Not in my Name!!!


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Moskitto]

they should really help the opposition to boot him out and help with holding some elections, then people won't be yelling imperialism as much,

[Larissa]

No problem at all. I didn't mean to be rude too.
I really like to learn more and express my opinion as well.

The drug I was referring to (SP Lab) was a prototype drug for the development of Integrilin (http://www.fda.gov/cder/consumerinfo/druginfo/INTEGRIl.HTM)

The problem was that 14 people died during the trial because of the side effects of the model-drug. The only "good" thing was that this results showed what had to be changed in the formula to reach the final drug.
But the point is that the Argentine Health Authorities (ANMAT) accepted this pre-drug to be tested even we they new that the drug was not meeting the FDA requirements for human testing.

I do not have any evidence to show you because that info was confidential, I just did the administrative part of the clinical trials (case report forms, etc). Patients who "voluntarily" participated in the trial were supposed to sign Informed Consents, and in 80% of the cases, the consents were not signed by the patients but by unscrupulous people who knew there were lots of irregularities going on, and thus, such patients didn't even know they were participating in a clinical trial. And in a country like mine (where justice simply does not exist and the Court members are crooked - everyone wants them out) I am at risk of being "vanished" just because of mentioning things like this. This is not a place where you can denounce certain things and go on living your normal life.

Yet, there is some interesting info here regarding what I am talking about: http://www.smu.org.uy/publicaciones/rmu/19...1998v3/art2.htm (http://www.smu.org.uy/publicaciones/rmu/1998v3/art2.htm)

I hope one day things like this will change. I hope we can all contribute to make this a much better world.

[Panamarisen]

BTW, not only U$ citizens, but also British people are going to contribute against war on Irak by creating more human shields.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Stormin Norman]

"having such a lot of chemical, biological and nuclear weaponry, dares to ask, or, even worse, FORCE some other country to get rid of its own."

For the last time, the U.S. does not have chemical or biological weapons. Check your fatcs before you open your mouth.

[Panamarisen]

Please, SN, don´t be so innocent! Of course they do, but even if it wasn´t true, the fact is that, at least, it got already an amount of nuclear weapons enough to destroy the whole fucking planet several times, and, besides, the U$ ain´t got the ethical, moral and legitimate reason to attack another country "just in case", instead of keeping the military for defence, as International Laws state.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Stormin Norman]

If it's true that the subjects had no idea they were undergoing clinical trials those responsible should be prosecuted. I have heard of incidents like this even in the U.S., so I am not so sure that it has everything to with the fact you live in a developing nation. However, it might be easier to get away with in Argentina. If somebody did that to somebody I care about, I would be taking justice into my own hands. The world is full of injustice and criminal behavior. The goal is to change it. If nothing else, I can conduct myself in an ethical fashion and do my part. Unfortunately, not everyone is like me. Those who feel they can get away with anything, need to be exposed as the monsters they are.

What kind of degree do you hold?

[Stormin Norman]

Panamarisen,

Read this stuff:

The U.S. interpretation of the Biological and Toxic Weapons Convention 1972:

http://www.fas.org/bwc/papers/usinterpretation.pdf

Other information:

http://www.fas.org/bwc/usinterpretation.htm
http://www.fas.org/bwc/s993.htm

[Panamarisen]

Thanks for the info, SN. Only I hope the U$ Government is actually following in a faithful way the whole terms and conditions.
And even so, its politics are kind of hypocrital: remember they -along with the British- supported Sadam (specially with their silence and not condemming) when he attacked the Kurd population with biological/chemical weaponry.

On the other hand, the above is still aside from the main point of the thread: the avoidability of such an unjust war nowdays, because of the previously posted arguments.


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Larissa]

What kind of degree do you hold?

I hold a Bachelor degree in Translation (I'm not a physician, etc.)

[Stormin Norman]

I think your energy would be better spent worrying about the Russian Biological Weapons Program conducted out of the State Research Center of Virology and Biotechnology at Novosibirsk, Siberia. They have developed very serious weaponized smallpox, and the means by which to deliver it.

The Russians were as belligerent than the the Iraqis in complying with their end of the treaty back in 1994. They have developed strains resistant to the vaccine, and refuse to give the U.S. a sample so we can create counter-measures.

A reputable source reported that this India-1 strain had been passed to the Iraqis. The Soviets have been producing this stuff by the ton, and have developed a refridgerated MIRV delivery system.

The advantage of using biologicals is that infrastructure remains intact. The disadvantage is that you release smallpox back into the world and could suffer blowback.

Believe me, the Iranians are no angels either. We have a serious problem, because we are faced with a scenario where the ring vaccination method of containment might not work as it did during the erradication, and the 1790's vaccine might not even be effective protection.

People joke about the anthrax, but they do not realize that at first their was great concern over whether or not it was a trojan horse meant to look like anthrax, while smallpox silently infected the population. They do not realize that if enough of the spores where released over a large city we could be looking at deaths in the thousands or tens of thousands. They do not realize that this stuff was engineered to break apart and float in the air with no wind at all. They do not realize that who ever created this version of the weapon had access to top-secret sources and methods. Whoever it was remains an expert in the field, perhaps even an American scientist that once worked for the U.S. government.

My friends, worrying about Bush's politics is a non-issue at this point. I don't care who the president is. He should have our support in combating the scientific perversion know as bio-warfare.

Imagine coming down with a cold, accompanied by a dull backache. Redness starts to develop around your face, chest and arms. The rash spreads and becomes pimply. The pimples grow in number and size, eventually becoming large pustules, or they become confluent as a layer of puss seperates your skin from your subcunateous layer. You begin to bleed internally and then die. These are the effects of variola major, smallpox.

Now do you understand my concern. More people have died of smallpox than the plague. If you don't trust me, ask the experts in the field. Virtually everyone of them is convinced that a large scale biological terrorist event is inevitable.

Ever read Revelations? I am not a religious man, but I do remember something about a horseman devoted to plague. If smallpox doesn't fit the bill, I don't know what does. I think healthy apprehension and erring on the side of the administration might be wise at this point. Just something to consider.
-------------------------------------------------
I justed finished the book "The Demon in the Freezer" by Richard Preston. This is true account of the history of smallpox and how it relates to society even now, over twenty years since is erradication from nature. It is a must read for anyone belonging to the human race, and is largely the source of information recalled in this post.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 5:22 pm on Jan. 2, 2003)

[Stormin Norman]

I just noticed your signature, Larissa. Considering what I just posted, I think it is very true.

[Stormin Norman]

What do you guys think about my assertions regarding bio-weapons. Should we continue to ridicule the president and worry about social programs, or should we put great emphasis on ridding the world of this serious problem? What is more important; liberalism, anti-smoking laws, and racial tension, or preventative measures at the federal, state, and municiple levels, in conjuction with a foreign policy that promotes the destruction of those regimes and programs that remain potential sources for such devastation?

I am interested to hear some discussion on this, now that I have put behind the myth that the U.S. is the largest developer of chemical and biological weapons, and were the source of Iraq's weapons program. Let's discuss this on a factual basis and leave tha anti -American propaganda at home. Let's see what importance the left places on this, a world problem greater than income disparity.

[Stormin Norman]

Well?

[Panamarisen]

SN,
I just can´t understand your point.

-You are saying the U$ is right in fighting possible enemies as Irak BEFORE they actually attack with their supposed huge biological/chemical weaponry. Irak is not a treat at all for the U$. Indeed, that´s one of the reasons Bushy wants to punch the first. And this is ILLEGAL, opposing International Laws.

-I´m aware I´m repeating myself, but you just keep putting aside as if being of less importance the fact that the U$ has enough nuclear weapons as to make disappear a whole country in a moment, and keep those who survived to die in a slow and painful way. Guess this is as dangerous and horrible as bio/chem warfare. Just remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and don´t forget the nuclear bombings with depleted uranium on Irak.

-The U$ didn´t support Kyoto, the U$ wants unvulnerability for their people (including specially militaries) in foreign lands, the U$ hasn´t avoided "fragmentation" weapons (they are as cruel and inhuman as personal mines)...

-The U$, as any other country, should just have the legitimation of DEFENDING itself IF being attacked. Nothing else.

-Not in My Name!!!


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Stormin Norman]

I am glad you bring up depleted Uranium. This is a point that was discussed in detail with James. In the following forum I explain the science of radiation and ask for him to provide me with evidence that supports the leftist claim that depleted Uranium is causing so much damage. Here I provide a link that discusses the accepted levels of exposure. Perhaps you would care to look over this old debate and see if you can succeed where James failed. Find credible scientific data that suggests the exposure levels that either our troops or those living on former battlegrounds are exposed to surpass the acceptable amounts. Also, make sure that it is peer reviewed. Otherwise I will simply accuse you of having no intention of getting to the truth and every intention of crippling America's ability to wage war.

Here is the link to the original debate about depleted Uranium:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...ic=705&start=20 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=705&start=20)

Later James tried to pass some bullshit off as the data I had asked him to produce. It failed. I was not fooled.

Here is that thread:

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=22&topic=731 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=22&topic=731)

Let's see if you can do any better on the issue of depleted Uranium, Panamarisen. I will get to the rest of your questions later. I just wanted to put this depleted Uranium farce to rest so you will quit trying to use it as a valid point.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 9:43 pm on Jan. 5, 2003)

[Panamarisen]

As usual, you focus on a single matter, so you forget the overall idea..., or you try to make the other one to forget it! Well, I haven´t.

Anyway:
OK, in this case you´re focusing on DU. I´ve read the threads you wanted me to read, and the final conclusions I can make is that you don´t just believe in what your government wants you to believe, but you DO WANT to believe him! I mean, if you were true enough with YOUSELF, you would be the first one to have a critical mind and to question any imperialistic (or whatever) statement your own government wants you to believe in. Not doing it is the main reason people outside the U$ are aware that most U$ citizens are really blind and brainwashed. They are aware that these citizens believe anything their government dictates, instead of studying facts and change their own country for better. It´s not a matter of being left or right winged.

This got nothing to do with a personal attack -it couldn´t be, anyway, since I don´t really know you. At the contrary, even if I think you´re wrong, my opinion is that you are one of the few right-wingeds here that try to debate...

And going back to the DU topic, in the first link you quoted there was one by James that actually should have answered you about it. Guess that was enough as to have AT LEAST serious doubts regarding DU. (Just imagine the alarming situation it would be for ANY U$ population to live under a DU atmosphere.) Don´t need more to say about it. Outside the U$ the info about DU is much worse than what may be currently going inside your country. It´s not just a "leftists claim".

Finally, I would like to add that I don´t consider a forum to be a ring where somebody is supposed to defeat the other one, but an area of discussion where some kind of "thruth" may come out to the surface, for the good of all of us.


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Stormin Norman]

Finally, I would like to add that I don´t consider a forum to be a ring where somebody is supposed to defeat the other one, but an area of discussion where some kind of "thruth" may come out to the surface, for the good of all of us.

Touche. However, one must realize that when to competing views are to be discussed for the interest of finding the truth, ill-conceived notions must be laid to waste. Hopefully it is the truth that prevails.

You claimed that I was being fed false information by my government, that my information on DU was contrived. False. You also claim that I support every stance my goverment takes, that my opinions are formulated by someone else. False. You claim that I want desperately to believe in the government. False.

My opinions regarding DU were arrived at after careful consideration. I went to the literature, checked the toxicity levels, and studied nuclear chemistry; which is more than I can say for those critics of DU that are guilty of the blind faith in a position that you would accuse me of.

Like the opposition of land-mines for military use, the critics of DU want nothing more than to hinder America's ability to wage war. They present a scientific position without giving the reader the benefit of scientific facts. That is what concerns me about people who criticize something they don't understand. It sounds bad to them, and Amnesty International is championing the cause therefore they fail to investigate the facts for themselves. Much like Clone-Aid's claim to have cloned humans, they present no science to support their most controversial claim. No matter the ideology this is intellectually dishonest and should not go unchallenged.

Therefore, if you truly are interested in the truth, as you claim you are, you should have no choice but to rethink your position over some of the causes you support. Foremost on that list is communism, which is a sociological and economic theory where the results fail to support Marx's hypothesis. You claim to seek the truth, but nothing I have seen from you would indicate this to be true. So easily persuaded by today's sophists you jump to premature conclusions simply because of your ideology. Unfortunately, when so many people become guilty of such blindness, truth is the only real victim.
----------------------------------------------------------
The reason I focused on just one of the points lies in the fact that things must sometimes be discussed in detail to arrive at that truth. Since we have laid two of your assertions to waste, we can not evaluate the others based on their merits. Now that the Myth behind DU has been expunged, and the facts about the U.S. interpretation of the Biological and Toxic Weapons Convention 1972 have been uncovered, we can proceed.

[Panamarisen]

SN,

-Regarding DU, I think the link James provided you in the other thread answers more than enough the scientific and medical proofs of its dangers, not only for the soldiers, but also for the civilians utterly. If, even so, the U$ Gov sends its soldiers to be in contact with DU, can only mean it just wants to reach its goals, no matter if they have to put under such risk its own soldiers.
And, again, I want you to remember that a DU atmosphere over any U$ population would immediatly mean a general hysteria (no wonder!).

-I talked about PERSONAL MINES, which are just a kind of land mines, but much more invalidating for soldiers, and, again, civilians utterly. Well, personal mines, just as "fragmentation weapons" or "fragmentation missiles" (don´t know the correct term in English), are as cruel and invalidating, and the U$ still supports them both, no matter being aware of the devastation it ALWAYS produces in the lives of thousands of civilians after a war is over, and no matter if the international community openly rejects them. Evidence is well known all over the world, and thus this general rejection.

-The purpose of this thread is to discuss the possibility of avoiding a war on Irak. I don´t want us both to forget it finally. You know up to these days the UN inspectors haven´t got A SINGLE PROOF of the mass-destruction weapons Irak supposedly has. And that´s not enough for war/oil-hungry U$ Gov and its pet, the British Gov, ironically being the U$ the number one holder of those weapons, as if they, as pretended world´s policemen, got the RIGHT to have them, in such a number, and nobody else = they dictate who should and who shouldn´t have them, who´s right and who´s wrong... Just disgusting, to say the least!

-And regarding our ideologies, I can honestly tell you that I LEARNED through the years that a communist/socialist society should eventually be a better one than a capitalist one, mainly because the very inner idea of leftist ideology is to look for real justice and real welfare to the ENTIRE population, not only for a few ones. (Of course, I´m not talking about the former USSR or North Corea, for instance, which in my opinion are just bad caricatures of what socialism should be... I´m not that misguided!)
SN, I grew up in Panama, a country that, as you know, was a kind of U$ colony. And it means you grow up unaware that you are throughly colonized in your ideas, vision of reality and society, most reasonable goals to achieve in life, etc. So it was AFTERWARDS when I realized how blind and how innocent I had been for years. And thus it naturally lead me to understand, appreciate and defend a leftist militance and a leftist stand inside society.
The idea I want you to consider here is that in my personal case, I had to REACH to the point I am today (and for a lot of years now, btw). Nobody taught me anything about it, nobody told me to do it or even acknowledged me about it. I learned it myself because of my personal circumstances as a starting point.
Also, think that we can discuss our points of views just here, in "Socialism vs. Capitalism", so you are unaware of what are my opinions in a lot of topics, including the political ones. Of course, I understand I don´t know you either regarding a lot of other topics...


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Stormin Norman]

Please provide that link again. I am not sure about the one you are talking about, but I can assure you that James faiiled to answer the question. I would be happy to address it here again.

[Panamarisen]

It is quoted in the 4th page of "Americas list of terror" topic (here in Socialism vs. Capitalism):

www.guardian.co.uk/uranium/story/0,7369,419882,00.html


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!