News Americas Chavez and Uribe in trade talks

[OI OI OI]

http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Images//2008/3/9/1_242680_1_5.jpg The talks are the first one-on-one meeting between Chavez and Uribe since August [AFP]
Hugo Chavez, Venezuela's president and Alvaro Uribe, his Colombian counterpart, will be holding talks to revive bilateral relations after months of bickering that threatened trade and unleashed a diplomatic crisis.
One of Latin America's fiercest US opponent and its closest ally will set aside their differences on Friday to discuss energy and trade deals worth some $6 billion.
The countries are key commercial partners and Uribe says he expects to sign accords to link the Andean neighbours with two new railways.
For both presidents, "the interest right now is to lower the level of confrontation and strengthen relations in common areas, especially the economy," said Sadio Garavini, analyst and former Venezuelan diplomat.

[BIG BROTHER]

Well its sad but it only took one laptop for Chavez to treat Uribe as a friend instead of an enemy like he use to.

[Zurdito]

Chavez and Uribe also held a joint press conference together today, where they sat next to each other and laughed and joked. this is the same Uribe who is one of the worst repressors of trade union rights on the continent.

I would like to see some of Chavez´s biggest cheerleaders on this board explain this, please...especially those who deny that Chavez is even a bourgeois leader.

[OI OI OI]

I would like to see some of Chavez´s biggest cheerleaders on this board explain this, please...especially those who deny that Chavez is even a bourgeois leader.

As a person that critically supports Chavez I have nothing good to say about this. It is a move that I condemn such as the one when he talked to the big bourgeoisie and he told them that they should help in the building of socialism of the 21st century!!!!

Chavez is very confused but he's got good intention for Venezuela and he has done some progressive steps forward.
Of course the bureaucracy (including him) have to be ousted and the workers should democraticaly control Venezuela.
Indicative of how confused he is I will remind you that he quoted extensively the book Bolshevism the Road to revolution by Alan Woods during a session in the parliament..
He talks about how Marx is more important than ever etc
But all the bureaucracy and the reformist and opportunist advisors are moving him in the wrong direction.
By criticaly supporting him , which means congradulating him for the good things he does and critisizing what he does wrong revolutionaries link up with the working class of Venezuela that has a lot of hopes from"Socialism of the 21st century" and we are bringing the revolution forward that way. This is the tactic that we should use in Venezuela.
I don't think that any revleft member unconditionly supports Chavez and if they do they are reformist and therefore they do not belong in a revolutionary forum!

[Zurdito]

I don´t think Chavez is confused, I think he is very intelligent, and uses marxist rhetoric to win over a left which could otherwise be very dangerous for him. How can someone with "good intentions" sit down for a chat and do businesswith Alvaro Uribe? Are you kidding me? Chavez is not an idiot, but even an idiot can see exactly what Alvaro Uribe´s regime in Colombia stands for. So when Chavez works with Uribe and gives him logistical support as well as positive propaganda, he is openly and consciously working towards the defeat of the working class in Colombia!

Also, there are at least two posters here who think the "Bolivarian Revolution" under Chavez is the revolution in itself and that it doesn´t need to be surpassed.

[OI OI OI]

I don´t think Chavez is confused, I think he is very intelligent, and uses marxist rhetoric to win over a left which could otherwise be very dangerous for him.(my bold)That is just your personal opinion and it is not based on facts.



How can someone with "good intentions" sit down for a chat and do businesswith Alvaro Uribe? Are you kidding me?The Soviet Union did talks with the US...! Don't you expect a reformist like Chavez to make talks with his neighbour when the bureaucracy of the USSR did talks with the US on numerous occassions?


Chavez is not an idiot, but even an idiot can see exactly what Alvaro Uribe´s regime in Colombia stands for. He understands but trade is essential i a world which is 99% capitalist. I condemn this action anyways. Talking to the bussinessmen and talking to Uribe are condemned by all those who criticaly support him and these mistakes are pointed out to the people of Venezuela .



So when Chavez works with Uribe and gives him logistical support as well as positive propaganda, he is openly and consciously working towards the defeat of the working class in Colombia!
I never recalled Chavez giving Uribe positive propaganda. He even called him a psychopath. And he is not conciously working for the defeat of the working class in Colombia. If that was the case he would support the FARC uncriticaly!



Also, there are at least two posters here who think the "Bolivarian Revolution" under Chavez is the revolution in itself and that it doesn´t need to be surpassed.Then those posters ought to be banned if the board policy doesn't allow reformists. If it does allow reformists then they shouldn't be banned. It's as simple as that.

[Herman]

I would like to see some of Chavez´s biggest cheerleaders on this board explain this, please...especially those who deny that Chavez is even a bourgeois leader.

I find that he shouldn't be talking with Uribe at all.

[Zurdito]

That is just your personal opinion and it is not based on facts.

It´s just your opinion that he has "good intentions"...



I never recalled Chavez giving Uribe positive propaganda. He even called him a psychopath.

In the past yes, but now they have sat down to a press conference together and laughed and joked like old friends, and vowed to co-operate. So chavez vowed to co-operate with Uribe...I watched it live, I can only find sources in spanish but you should search for the press conference on youtube.

[Zurdito]

and I would liek to add OI OI OI that

1.) reformist leaders (unlike their supporters) do not have "good intentions", they are there to ensure the continued existence of capitalism against a hostile working class, and that

2.) Chavez is not reformist. reformism is when the leading bureaucracy emerging out of the working class rests on trade union consciousness and tries to win concessions from capitalism. "Bolivarianism" does not have these roots or identity, it is a third world bourgeois nationalist phenomenon emerging out of the weakness and divided nature of the Venezuelan bourgeoisie (as we see in many semi-colonies and osmething happening today in Bolivia, Argentina and Ecuador among others), a bourgeoisie where a small globally connected elite (the "oligarchy" as they are often called), which is "competitive" in the free market, has done well out of 30 years of domination by global finance capital, whereas the rest has found itself ever more cramped, and put in a situation where to continue operating it would need to attack its workers beyond a point that the working class would tolerate, so instead we see a movement within the Venezuelan bourgeoise to spread the profits of the dominant sectors across the whole bourgeoise and prop up sectors which wouldn´t survive in an outright neo-liberal system.

The "national bourgeoisie" is able this way to appeal to the masses on the basis of creating/maintaining employment and on needing to be less confrontational due to having the state bail it out of its crises rather than needing to increasingly confront the workign class. At the same time this project is ultimately based on giving the minimum possible concessionsto workers int he name of aking the "narional borugeoisie" as strong as possible, and on keeping wages and conditions at home at a level where ultimately, Venezuela (or Bolviia or Argentina) are profitable places to invest, i.e. to exploit workers. Also, the spreading of wealth from the "oligarchy"to the rest is often done through keeping the currency low so as to create artificial tarriffs to protect national industry, and in turn devalue the huge masses of capital held by the oligarchy and in turn reward the less "comeptitive" sectors of the bourgeoise...and the other side of this coin is that this same inflation is an impoverishing factor for workers whilst it helps their bosses export! So, there is nothing progressive about this project designed to make domestic industrialists profitable.

This is called "neo-developmentism", and I really do not think we should tellthe working class to "critically support" it, thatis a popular frontist, stalinist attitude. The working class needs its own party not tied to a project of strengthening the naitonal bourgeoisie on the basis of hoping to get increasing crumbs from that table.

Also the point is that Chavez doing business wiht Uribe is not a "betrayal", it is in the interests of Chavez bourgeois class to build strong links with as many other borugeois states as possible. Recent spats with imperialism and its supproters were about precise terms and conditions and trying to get the best deal possible for the Venezuelan bourgeoisie, and not about trying to build an alternative long term project.

[BIG BROTHER]

Well this just shows that even though, Venezuela has a couple of welfare programs but in the end its still a capitalist country and now that Chavez has decided to talk with Uribe, especially after Chavez himself called him a drug lord, paramilitary and such, just proves that he is more of a populist.

It also shows the limits of placing hope on bourgeoisie institutions. Real change comes from the bottom, not from the top.

[Justin CF]

God damn it... and I really liked Chavez, too! I understand that this was something that he probably had to do to ensure the economic stability of Venezuela (I don't know why else he would do it), but I must admit that this does bother me. Still, he's definitely way better than the leaders of most countries, and I would support him if I were a Venezuelan.

-Justin