AMERICA'S "YOUTH-ORIENTED" CULTURE - And the Repression of R

[redstar2000]

Should you be among those unfortunate enough to still be exposed to the daily and weekly press in America, you have doubtlessly come across this or that pundit's op-ed piece deploring the "youth-oriented culture" of American capitalism.

They'll mention some true examples: the large and growing number of male executives lining up for cosmetic surgery, the female matrons shopping at "hot topics" for the latest fashion, the passionate desire of "baby boomers" to somehow remain "youthful" and "dynamic". It's easy enough to dismiss some of the claims--when the pundits complain about the lack of respect for age and experience, they mean the lack of respect for THEM.

But advice for remaining "young" flash-floods the media: diet, exercise, quit smoking, BUY whatever it is we're selling, etc., etc., etc. and you will truly remain YOUNG forever (honest! no kidding! you won't get old and die! we promise!).

But if one is NOT young, yet wishes urgently to project the image of being "young", what's the LAST thing one wants or needs?

It is people who are ACTUALLY young who constitute a standing reproach to the pretences of "youth". An individual who is REALLY 15 gives the LIE to someone trying to pretend that they're 15. The "baby boomers" in America just HATE that...and they end up showing that in surprising ways.

Being <ahem> somewhat older than 15, I can easily remember a different America. I can, for example, remember when there was no such thing as a "curfew" law especially directed against kids 16 or younger. It's true that such laws are applied especially harshly to minority teenagers, but they are used to harass and repress all kids.

I can remember when a kid could walk to the corner grocer's or supermarket on payday and buy their dad a six-pack of beer...and no one thought anything about it.

I can remember when any kid with $2.50 (ME) could buy a carton of Camels and nobody thought that a moral outrage had taken place.

My younger brother lost his virginity to my father's girlfriend...she was about 38, he was 14. I suspect that in modern America, she would be up for heavy prison time. When I was 25, I had a girlfriend who was two weeks shy of her 17th birthday; now it would be MY turn in the dock.

In the late 1980s, the state of California attempted to prosecute a 17-year-old guy for having sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend. I think it's only a matter of time until two 14-year-olds are prosecuted for having sex WITH EACH OTHER.

Of course, that's not the end of the matter for the young girl, should she become pregnant. A growing number of states now require "parental permission" for women under 18 to have an abortion. In many cases, this legal impediment serves merely to drag things out until it's "too late" and the girl is essentially forced to carry the fetus to term. When abortion first became legal in the U.S., any teenager with $135 could get one, no questions asked.

Now, while it is true that students did win a number of civil rights vs. their schools in the 1970s, those rights have been steadily eroded ever since the Reagan administration. Random locker searches and personal searches, random drug tests, etc. are now almost normal...something completely unknown when I was young.

There are already a couple of American states (that I know of) that have begun restricting driver's licenses to people under 21--saying, for example, that you can only operate a motor vehicle during certain hours or that you must attend school and have a certain grade average, etc.

And there are a growing number of American retail businesses that will not serve teenagers during school hours. Yes, that's true!

In the overall picture of the decline of freedom in late capitalist America, perhaps these examples don't mean all that much. Yet, it strikes me that this parade of repression directed especially against the young HAS a real sub-text...and it goes something like this: we who are PRETENDING to be "young" do NOT want any REAL young people around to spoil our act!

It is ironic: "youth-oriented" America has, in a funny way, a real hatred for real kids.





(Edited by redstar2000 at 6:44 pm on Dec. 28, 2002)

[Panamarisen]

The hole sickening situation is spreading all over Western countries, who follow whatever the U$ does. It´s disgusting. Now everybody in these countries are starting to live under such paranoia.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Tkinter1]

"Random locker searches and personal searches, random drug tests, etc. are now almost normal...something completely unknown when I was young."

Why do you think we have random locker searches? What big events seem to happen now, that didn't happen in your day

"In the late 1980s, the state of California attempted to prosecute a 17-year-old guy for having sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend."

It's called statutory rape. I realize how close 17 and 16 are, but what if it was a 17 and a 9 year old? They have to draw the line somewhere.

You remind me of those old men that say 'in my day I could get a Hershey bar for a nickle!'

Times change, deal with it.


And what are you talking the fake youth? People have been trying to look young for centuries, this isn't a new Capitalist occurrence.

I'm fifteen, and i can see why they restrict us on some things.

[Moskitto]

hang on, 17 and 16, what's the age of consent in the US cos that's totally legal over here.

[Tkinter1]

I think it varies between 17 and 18

[redstar2000]

"I'm fifteen, and I can see why they restrict us on some things."

Sad. :sad:

[Tkinter1]

How is that sad? Just becuase I'm not like FIGHT THE POWER all day? Look at you, you must be like 35 and you think you know teens or something. sad :(

[redstar2000]

"...you think you know teens or something."

No, Tkinter1, I do NOT think I "know teens." If you will look back at what I wrote, you will see that I don't even SPECULATE on how kids are reacting to the growing loss of their freedoms.

But I always think it is VERY SAD when people ACCEPT the loss of their freedoms...whether they are adults or teenagers or toddlers. No one is more a slave than one who believes they are unworthy of freedom.

:cool:

[Corvus Corax]

'I may be paranoid, but I am no Android'

[mentalbunny]

It really annoys me that humans, especially the rest, have such a pre-occuaption with the way themselves and other humans look. I only mildly care what I look like, but I want people to care about how I think and what I do rather than how I look, I don't feel like the person I look like, if that makes any sense.

Anyway in my opinion the media should not be able to put all this pressure on us to look young and thin and all the rest of it, it does no one any good.

[Tkinter1]

"But I always think it is VERY SAD when people ACCEPT the loss of their freedoms."

No. I haven't accepted a loss of freedom. I've accepted the fact that teens do stupid things, and these laws are in place to protect them.

"I can remember when a kid could walk to the corner grocer's or supermarket on payday and buy their dad a six-pack of beer...and no one thought anything about it."

And you can't see why they don't allow this today?

"I can remember when any kid with $2.50 (ME) could buy a carton of Camels and nobody thought that a moral outrage had taken place."

And you can't see why they don't allow this today?

My younger brother lost his virginity to my father's girlfriend...she was about 38, he was 14.

Anyone with half a brain, would see something wrong with that. And that was illegal then as well....

I suspect that in modern America, she would be up for heavy prison time. When I was 25, I had a girlfriend who was two weeks shy of her 17th birthday; now it would be MY turn in the dock."

You commited statitoury rape. You can try and defend yourself all you want, but thats what you did.

[Moskitto]

he had a girlfriend, does that mean he had sex?

[Pete]

"No. I haven't accepted a loss of freedom. I've accepted the fact that teens do stupid things, and these laws are in place to protect them."

By accepting the fact that you are stupid, it does not mean that the rest of us are. When a government makes laws for the sake of controlling people something is horribly wrong. In Canada the drinking age varies from 18-19, roughly when you are done highschool. In America it is set at 21. Why? I don't see a reason. You are in University. It is your time to make mistakes. As well as statuatory rape. I find it stupid when people consent and are arrested. In Canada our law is at 14 for consent, and some politicains want it to be lowered to 12. Why is is 17-19 in the $tate$? So your government can exercise it's power more.

[Tkinter1]

"By accepting the fact that you are stupid, it does not mean that the rest of us are."

You're right pete, becuase the government can differentiate between who is going to be stupid and who isn't.

"When a government makes laws for the sake of controlling people something is horribly wrong."

It's a sad sad world we live in pete....I only wish there could be some sort or socialist revolution to solve this horrible injustice.

"In America it is set at 21. Why?"

Because a bunch of drunk kids walking around destroying their undeveloped livers and brain tissue is something the country wants to avoid. Why damage the youth early?

"I find it stupid when people consent and are arrested."
So an adult man convincing a young girl to have sex with him is consent? That is what the law is in place for. It's not in place to protect against 17 and 18 years olds having consensual sex, but they have to draw the line some where. And I really doubt they are even prosecuted when they are caught unless the age difference is large.

"It is your time to make mistakes."

Exactly. So why compound the mistakes of teen-hood with drinking? If you can recognize that teens are rebellious, you should see why limiting or stopping their intake of alcohol is a good idea.

"In Canada our law is at 14 for consent, and some politicains want it to be lowered to 12. "

Fine as long as its 14 and 14. Not 14 and 36.

"So your government can exercise it's power more."
Wrong. Not at all.

Look at the world today. The world is not as it was 40 years ago. Kids are shooting up schools, drugs are more abundant than ever, our movies and music perpetuate violence and destructivity.

But if you really want to drink and break curfew no ones stopping you unless you get caught.

[Som]

""In America it is set at 21. Why?"

Because a bunch of drunk kids walking around destroying their undeveloped livers and brain tissue is something the country wants to avoid. Why damage the youth early? "

Instead you have a bunch of drunk kids walking around destroying their undeveloped livers and brain tissue illegally.
Its not really limiting or stopping their alcohol intake, its just enabling a more irresponsible way of things.

In countries with more relaxed alcohol laws, there is less of problem with it. Its because they have more exposure and are better used to the alcohol.

and generally it should be their choice.

"It's not in place to protect against 17 and 18 years olds having consensual sex, but they have to draw the line some where. And I really doubt they are even prosecuted when they are caught unless the age difference is large. "

Or you could not have the law be such a set definite line of things. a lower consent age as well. There are much better ways to draw the line.
And as far as i know, they are prosecuted if the parents choose to, regardless of the age difference.


(Edited by Som at 8:46 am on Dec. 30, 2002)

[synthesis]

But if you really want to drink and break curfew no ones stopping you unless you get caught.

Dude, that really takes the cake for my favorite capitalist statement - ever.

No one's stopping you from stealing, killing, raping, or vandalizing, either, unless you get caught.

Typical Wall Street mindset, eh?

[Tkinter1]

"Dude, that really takes the cake for my favorite capitalist statement - ever. "

Umm. Ok? I'm not quite following...was that supposed to be an insult or what?
____________________

"In countries with more relaxed alcohol laws, there is less of problem with it. Its because they have more exposure and are better used to the alcohol."

Our cultural probably glamorizes alcohol more so than those particular countries do. I think the different culturals play a significant role in how alcohol is looked upon.

Or you could not have the law be such a set definite line of things.

"a lower consent age as well."

Why does it need to be lower?

"There are much better ways to draw the line."
Agreed.

"And as far as i know, they are prosecuted if the parents choose to, regardless of the age difference."

If the child is a minor with an adult yes the adult parent has the choice. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Moskitto]

my brother knows someone who's 16 and is engaged to marry someone in their 30s, it isn't illegal (the age of consent is 16,) it just raises a few eyebrows,

[socialist ballistix]

I think these laws were originally put on there to help kids and they defenitly do. But i know alot of people that break these laws just for the thrill or the high and shit. So you could say if they relaxed them, then those peoplewould stop cause it would be legal. But i think thats wrong cause these people would just do it not for the high or the thrill nemore, but just because they can and wont get into trouble. So its really a double edged sword. Just my logic, sorry if its wrong.

[Pete]

""By accepting the fact that you are stupid, it does not mean that the rest of us are."

You're right pete, becuase the government can differentiate between who is going to be stupid and who isn't.

"When a government makes laws for the sake of controlling people something is horribly wrong."

It's a sad sad world we live in pete....I only wish there could be some sort or socialist revolution to solve this horrible injustice. "

Tkinter, thank you for the sarcasm. It is very constructive and allows me to see what your point is in such pure light. Really. I'm not lying man. Not at all.

"But if you really want to drink and break curfew no ones stopping you unless you get caught. "

Curfew? CURFEW? What the hell. I didn't think we lived in such an archaic time. Well atleast I don't. I cannot violate curfew, because it does not exist. Curfew is an example of a law for the sake of a law. That is just disgusting and disgraceful to your nation. Here we have laws prohibitting such acts as being overly loud at all hours. Not after dark or a certain time. Curfew. Man, that really offends me that such a law exists. And the U$ is supposed to be a free country. Damn, that really bothers me. Proof that your government does not trust youth to be smart. I could hang out in the park across from the police station all night and if a nice cop is on he might talk to me or something.

"Our cultural probably glamorizes alcohol more so than those particular countries do. I think the different culturals play a significant role in how alcohol is looked upon. "

I think our culture glamourizes it because it is illegal for youth. My older brother used to drink all the time because it was 'cool' and illegal. Then he turned 19 and it lost all of its glamour because the law said he was allowed to drink. Just like getting high. If it wasn't illegal (although it is soon to be decriminalized a step in the right direction) I doubt most people that do it would. It would be just like alcohol for 19 year olds. In Canada our culture accepts alcohol more then the American one it seems. You come home and have a beer because it is what is done, and you are tolerant to it.

"Look at the world today. The world is not as it was 40 years ago. Kids are shooting up schools, drugs are more abundant than ever, our movies and music perpetuate violence and destructivity."

In Toronto this year their have been 60 homocides. That is in the largest city in Canada of something like 3 mill people. Only 28 gun related deaths. I don't believe any are youth related, and none took place in schools. In the movies which the plutocrats make and distribute violence is seen as a way of solving problems. If those in power want to reduce these influences then they should stop giving them to us. I am not saying that everyone will play a game or see a movie and do this, but that seems to be your arguement. Not mine. It is not my belief.

[Som]

"Our cultural probably glamorizes alcohol more so than those particular countries do. I think the different culturals play a significant role in how alcohol is looked upon. "

Nope, I was referring to Europe generally, where alcohol is definitly a larger part of the culture. Its because its not treated as something the be so restricted, and it loses the stigma of doing something illegal.
Or you could take Canada for an example whose culture isn't so different and the laws are still at 18 and 19.

"If the child is a minor with an adult yes the adult parent has the choice. I don't see anything wrong with that. "

Ah, so theres nothing wrong with a 18 year old seeing jail time because the parents of his 17 year old girlfriend dont like him?

[Guest]

Tkinter here...

"Ah, so theres nothing wrong with a 18 year old seeing jail time because the parents of his 17 year old girlfriend dont like him?"

They have to draw the line somewhere. I realise the ages are close, but you have to look at it from a legal perspective.

[timbaly]

The law can be drawn on a case by case basis. 17 and 18 are close so is 15 and 14. 17 and 10 should be treated a whole lot different than 17 and 18.

[Pete]

From what I have been learning through reading at this site, Canada is in many ways, no matter what any History teacher tells you, alot closer to Europe then we think. As well, maybe a more capitalistic European country would be better to balance against America instead of Canada based on our more lenient laws and accepting culture.

[Blackberry]

Quote: from timbaly on 1:50 am on Dec. 31, 2002
The law can be drawn on a case by case basis. 17 and 18 are close so is 15 and 14. 17 and 10 should be treated a whole lot different than 17 and 18.


In Australia, people under 18 can have sex, as long as they are not more than two years apart in age.

[Moskitto]

what about just going out but not having sex?

[timbaly]

Quote: from Neutral Nation on 10:02 pm on Dec. 31, 2002

In Australia, people under 18 can have sex, as long as they are not more than two years apart in age.


This isn't the greatest of laws. I don't think a set number of years is a good idea. Think about it, the mindset of an 11 year old is very different from a 9 year old. The same goes for 10 and 8. Most 8 and 9 year olds don't know about sex but 11 and 10 year olds do. old

[timbaly]

Quote: from Neutral Nation on 10:02 pm on Dec. 31, 2002

In Australia, people under 18 can have sex, as long as they are not more than two years apart in age.


This isn't the greatest of laws. I don't think a set number of years is a good idea. Think about it, the mindset of an 11 year old is very different from a 9 year old. The same goes for 10 and 8. Most 8 and 9 year olds don't know about sex but 11 and 10 year olds do. old

[mentalbunny]

It's been very interesting reading all you have to say.

I live in the UK where the age of consent is 16, but I lost my virginity about 2 months short of this age. It's no big deal, a large proportion of the population does and parents just don't find out. However if you raise this age then it will be a lot tougher on everyone, 16 is the best age I think, by then you are paying adult train fares, etc. therefore you should get some of the benefits of being an adult, like being allowed to have sex. I don't think the law should be chaged in any way here in the UK, kids under 16 are more vunerable but get any older and it's just frustrating if you have to make sure no one knows anything about your sex life.

I think the US should let people drink earlier, 21 is much too late, I really don't understand why you can drive at 16 either! You can drive before you drink or have sex?! How does this make sense? Obviously it shows that Americans really have no respect for the environment and no respect for personal liberty.

[redstar2000]

A postscript for this thread:

The New York Times reports that the new Republican-controlled congress will take up legislation that will make it a FEDERAL CRIME to assist a young woman to cross a state line for the purpose of obtaining an abortion if by so doing she evades the parental consent laws in her home state. The bill is expected to pass and be signed into law by President George W. Bush later this year.

Sieg Heil, baby!

:cool:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 4:04 pm on Jan. 3, 2003)

[timbaly]

Thats disgusting redstar2000. How dare they. They've made it a crime to help people, what a shame.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 2:52 pm on Dec. 29, 2002
"...you think you know teens or something."

No, Tkinter1, I do NOT think I "know teens." If you will look back at what I wrote, you will see that I don't even SPECULATE on how kids are reacting to the growing loss of their freedoms.

But I always think it is VERY SAD when people ACCEPT the loss of their freedoms...whether they are adults or teenagers or toddlers. No one is more a slave than one who believes they are unworthy of freedom.

:cool:


Those points u made, redstar, have very little to do with intrinsic freedoms. If you think that statutory rape and exposing minors unnecessarily to drugs and alcohol are necessary freedoms, then I think thrat you misunderstand what the constitution is about.

[I Bow 4 Che]

Your post skips from one thing to another, there is a slight connection but in my reply I will seperate:

Youth

The funny thing is...Kids live their lives wanting to be adults. 7th graders I know have personal weight trainers, are dieting, have personal hair dressers, have acrylic nails, have purses that carry cell phones...and once you turn about 30 or so...they spend their whole lives trying to be young.

Does anyone see a problem here? People can never be content with their age...(I'm not speaking for the all) The reason this is horrible for society is because the media then opresses us. Money! Fucking money!!

Youth Rights

You said you remember when you could go to the store and buy a 6 pack for your dad and nobody would see it as odd. The reason this does not work now is because kids, trying their new "maturity" facade will DRINK the beer. Do we want 12-15 year olds getting drunk and rummaging streets shooting eachother and having sex with 18 year olds. I am 12...this upsets me because I've SEEN IT! The abortion thing...with parental supervision of course is important!! 12-16 year olds shouldn't be GETTING PREGNANT!! It's one of the only things we have to prevent 12 year olds from taking that beer, drinkign it and fucking some guy at the "Hot Topics" with tatoos of Jesus ripping through his fucking skin!! It's America, of course it must change, and we must start with our youth. The youth is our future and it does not look promising. People look forward and wonder what life will be like. Soon Kids will be getitng married at age 6 for fucks sake!...


-End Vent-

[redstar2000]

CI, you seem to equate "intrinsic freedoms" with whatever a gang of 18th-century slave-holders decided to put into the U.S. Constitution. My view is, shall we say, somewhat more expansive.

IB4C, freedom is ALWAYS subject to "abuse"--however that may be defined. That's WHY it's called freedom.

If you are surrounded by restrictions, rules, laws...then there is NO possibility of abuse. If you are tied to a chair, there is NO way you can jump off a cliff.

If you wish to "educate" people of any age against what you think are abuses of freedom, I might argue with you about the details, but I have no problem with the idea in principle. It really IS a bad idea to operate a motor vehicle while drunk or high...whether you're 12 or 112.

But you appear to think that an ever-growing wall of restrictions will "protect" you or other kids from the dangers of freedom...and it might work. But the price is a truly horrifying one...and not only the lives destroyed in prisons for breaching these increasingly draconian laws, but the loss of the very idea of freedom...the slow development of habitual obedience and conformity.

And so we slowly drift into the abyss of the 4th Reich...

:cool:

[I Bow 4 Che]

Haha...the 4th Reich..:)

anyway, I am not saying that we must fix this with laws persay...but something needs to be done one way or other...I am for freedom..but not the so called freedom we are supposedly given in this shit hole

[RedComrade]

Im not going to side one way or another on the drugs and statuatory rape shit but i think its pathetic how its illegal for me to get on porn if im under 18 i mean i no its really not enforced but come on where is the harm in a 14 year old kid having a couple photos of a naked woman i mean i understand if the kids parents have a problem but is it seriously ny of the states buisiness.

[redstar2000]

"Haha...the 4th Reich"

Please don't laugh, IB4C, I wasn't joking. :sad:

[I Bow 4 Che]

I wasn't laughing at that..I was laughing at the fact that you related the two...I agree it is not a funny thing at all...I am really senstive when it comes to the subject

[Capitalist Imperial]

I bow 4 che, what is your problem with averill levine?

[I Bow 4 Che]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=16&topic=415 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=16&topic=415)

I insist you look here

(Edited by I Bow 4 Che at 12:49 am on Jan. 7, 2003)