Mandated Community Service for Kids

[Bud Struggle]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008...-obamas-speech/ (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jul/02/text-obamas-speech/)

"Just as we teach math and writing, arts and athletics, we need to teach young Americans to take citizenship seriously."

"Study after study shows that students who serve do better in school, are more likely to go to college, and more likely to maintain that service as adults."

"So when I'm President, I will set a goal for all American middle and high school students to perform 50 hours of service a year, and for all college students to perform 100 hours of service a year. This means that by the time you graduate college, you'll have done 17 weeks of service."

"We'll reach this goal in several ways. At the middle and high school level, we'll make federal assistance conditional on school districts developing service programs, and give schools resources to offer new service opportunities. At the community level, we'll develop public-private partnerships so students can serve more outside the classroom."

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Community service ain't service if you mandate it. Nor is there any definition of what that "service" is.

[Bud Struggle]

Community service ain't service if you mandate it.

Says who?


Nor is there any definition of what that "service" is.

That can be defined in time. The point is: getting kids to do something rather than sit in their room and post on RevLeft. :lol:

[Jazzratt]

If this kind of work needs doing shouldn't the nation's unemployed be allowed to do it - for a wage?

[Red_or_Dead]

If this kind of work needs doing shouldn't the nation's unemployed be allowed to do it - for a wage?

I think that "educational value" or whatever they want to call it is the point here. Tho, in essence it is free child labour.


That can be defined in time. The point is: getting kids to do something rather than sit in their room and post on RevLeft. :lol:

Well then, grab a plastic bag, and go pickup litter.:D

[Dimentio]

I actually like that idea. I think we should have mandatory community service between age 17 and 18, even in a post-capitalist context. For example send a team of young people to aid drug-addicts, old people or hurricane victims.

I have always thought that we should replace conscription with something like that.

[pusher robot]

To be fair, he doesn't say it would be mandatory, he says they'll be "goals," which could be like the Presidential Youth Fitness Awards goals - simply a set of achievements published so that you can participate if you want to.

That said, "mandatory service" is just a fancy way of saying "slavery."

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

I actually like that idea. I think we should have mandatory community service between age 17 and 18, even in a post-capitalist context. For example send a team of young people to aid drug-addicts, old people or hurricane victims.

I have always thought that we should replace conscription with something like that.

There shouldn't be conscription at all. This plan just forces kids to provide free labor, free labor they don't have time for. Service sector jobs plus stupefying school is enough. Most likely this will make kids hate service, as if its anything like regular school, it'll be tyrannical and annoying.

[pusher robot]

I actually like that idea. I think we should have mandatory community service between age 17 and 18, even in a post-capitalist context. For example send a team of young people to aid drug-addicts, old people or hurricane victims.

I have always thought that we should replace conscription with something like that.

There should be a national service corps that offers young people a stable, disciplined work and learning environment, like the old CCC. But it must be voluntary.

[Baconator]

Yep. I'm back up in the hizzy.

Mandatory service by who's mandate and for what purpose? If we are talking about a political elite group of individuals claiming the right to enslave others to their whims then it is pretty much slavery with a friendlier name.

[534634634265]

isnt this what many countries in europe do though? i know my dutch family has or had a period of two years where you either did civil or martial service. this "service"was defined as work that benefited the community as a whole. this way, people are taught not to be lazy assholes who complain. i feel like it probably helps these kids in many ways. helps inspire a good work ethic, teaches the value of working for the communal good. aren't these fairly leftist ideals?

[Schrödinger's Cat]

One hundred hours a year? How are college students supposed to juggle their work, school, and study loads?

[534634634265]

One hundred hours a year? How are college students supposed to juggle their work, school, and study loads? i think they expect you to do it in high school when your just a shiftless layabout with no morals or goals. this IS in America mind you.
srsly tho, i wouldn't have been able to do this, so i'm quite glad to be beyond its reach now. i worked part-time all through high school just to afford my lifestyle, i.e cell bill, car insurance, car payment, various medical bills due to idiocy, booze and pot, etc.:p:thumbup1::p

[Dean]

"So when I'm President, I will set a goal for all American middle and high school students to perform 50 hours of service a year, and for all college students to perform 100 hours of service a year. This means that by the time you graduate college, you'll have done 17 weeks of service."

Good. Education is about acquainting the student with soial responsibility, for one.

[534634634265]

yeah, i really don't see how this is a bad thing. it seems the only people who would be bothered by this are slack high school students who fear hard work.:):):)
ahh to be so young again.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Good. Education is about acquainting the student with soial responsibility, for one.

Social responsibility doesn't come from forced labor in a capitalist school.

[RGacky3]

"Just as we teach math and writing, arts and athletics, we need to teach young Americans to take citizenship seriously."

You know why they don't take citizenship seriously? Because its not serious, citizenship is a joke. To me its so hypocritical and arrogant that any one in government should be telling the American people they should be socially responsible doing community service, when the American government has ignored its people, its poor, its homeless, its unemployed, over and over again, rather spending their resources on business interests and imperialism. Citizenship is a joke.


yeah, i really don't see how this is a bad thing. it seems the only people who would be bothered by this are slack high school students who fear hard work.

Anything mandetory is wrong, unless its stopping abuse.


Good. Education is about acquainting the student with soial responsibility, for one.

If theres one message I learned in my education it was this "make money, screw everyone else." Social responsibility is the last thing it teaches.

This reminds me of the famous JFK line "Ask not what your government can do for you, but what you can do for your government."

problem is, the government in theory exists for me, for us, we don't exist for the government, so no, ask what the government can do for you, if nothing really positive, get rid of it.


i think they expect you to do it in high school when your just a shiftless layabout with no morals or goals.

Thats where parents come in, remember them?


aren't these fairly leftist ideals?

They are, but forced labor is'nt, governments demanding things from their people is'nt.

[KrazyRabidSheep]

One hundred hours a year? How are college students supposed to juggle their work, school, and study loads?
I managed it when I was in my early 20s.
One hundred hours really isn't that much time (many people spend many hundreds of hours playing video games or surfing the internet every year.)
If you spend only one hour every weekend day doing community service, you've reached over 100 hours.

In fact, much of what I did as a volunteer helped me secure employment later in life.

As far as community service, charities, etc. are concerned, I feel that any contribution, voluntary or otherwise, is positive.

It is best when individuals do so on their own initiative.
It is not quite as good when they need to be persuaded (such as tax exemptions or other rewards), but still better then doing nothing at all.
When individuals are required to do service, it is still positive for society. The recent flooding here in St. Louis would have been much worse then it was without volunteers, including convicts and minor offenders sentenced with community service.

http://www.stltoday.com/flood08
http://www.flickr.com/photos/devlantd/tags/stlouis/


If this kind of work needs doing shouldn't the nation's unemployed be allowed to do it - for a wage?You have an excellent point. In many (if not most) cases, it would be plausible to find a way to hire people to do what is now volunteer work.

However, sometimes (such as an enviornmental emergency situation) the labour is needed sooner then is possible to set up employment opportunities (and in such cases volunteers are excellent candidates for help.)

[pusher robot]

Really? Do you communists have any principles at all? I just don't understand your logic at all, eg:

Pay a person a wage to voluntarily do some work: "OMG WAGE SLAVERY IS TEH EVIL REVOLUTION NOW BACKS AGAINST THE WALL!"

Force a person to do some work against their will and without pay: "Hey, sounds like a great idea!"

[Jazzratt]

Really? Do you communists have any principles at all? I just don't understand your logic at all, eg:

Pay a person a wage to voluntarily do some work: "OMG WAGE SLAVERY IS TEH EVIL REVOLUTION NOW BACKS AGAINST THE WALL!"

Force a person to do some work against their will and without pay: "Hey, sounds like a great idea!"


If this kind of work needs doing shouldn't the nation's unemployed be allowed to do it - for a wage?

While I clearly believe it would be preferential to do away with wage slavery completely it far better to ease unemployment and make everything slightly less shite than to use minors as a pool of slave labour.

[Dean]

Social responsibility doesn't come from forced labor in a capitalist school.

What forced labor?

[RevMARKSman]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008...-obamas-speech/ (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jul/02/text-obamas-speech/)

"Just as we teach math and writing, arts and athletics, we need to teach young Americans to take citizenship seriously."

"Study after study shows that students who serve do better in school, are more likely to go to college, and more likely to maintain that service as adults."

"So when I'm President, I will set a goal for all American middle and high school students to perform 50 hours of service a year, and for all college students to perform 100 hours of service a year. This means that by the time you graduate college, you'll have done 17 weeks of service."

"We'll reach this goal in several ways. At the middle and high school level, we'll make federal assistance conditional on school districts developing service programs, and give schools resources to offer new service opportunities. At the community level, we'll develop public-private partnerships so students can serve more outside the classroom."

That'll never happen if students continue to have the irrational desire for one or more of the following:

1) actual knowledge (studying)
2) actual jobs
3) actual free time

[pusher robot]

While I clearly believe it would be preferential to do away with wage slavery completely it far better to ease unemployment and make everything slightly less shite than to use minors as a pool of slave labour.

Fair enough, I should have specifically directed my comments to those members actually praising this (e.g., krazyrabidsheep, crackedlogic.)

[Demogorgon]

Quite a few European countries have this in practice because you have to do such service if you don't want to do your compulsory military service, and I can't really say it makes people mopre productive. Besides you are never going to make people productive by having them do an hour here and there.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

What forced labor?


This forced labor. The labor that's going to be forced on people in order to qualify for federal dollars.

[Bud Struggle]

This forced labor. The labor that's going to be forced on people in order to qualify for federal dollars.

Forced labor. The labor that's going to be forced on people in order to qualify for Communist subsistance.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Forced labor. The labor that's going to be forced on people in order to qualify for Communist subsistance.

There's something of a difference ol chap. Here we have working class people, who already work or take out enormous loans to pay off college, having to ump through another hoop to satisfy federal grants. Federal grants they can't lose, because then they can't pay for college.

Access to education is not a privilege that the feds can wave at you, its an entitled right. The situation is different under communism. Where you technically don't have to work, however you would be social outcast and ignored by most people. Why? Because you're not entitled to live off the labor of others, that parasitism. That's what the ownership class does everyday, live off the labor of others.

[Dust Bunnies]

I do not like this mandated community service. It is slavery without a wage.

[Jazzratt]

I do not like this mandated community service.

Would you like it in a box? Would you like it with a fox? Would you like it in a house? Would you like it with a mouse? Would you like it here or there? Would you like it anywhere?

[Bud Struggle]

There's something of a difference ol chap. Here we have working class people, who already work or take out enormous loans to pay off college, having to ump through another hoop to satisfy federal grants. Federal grants they can't lose, because then they can't pay for college. All these are their own choices. I went through a major American University (Georgetown) (albeit a while ago) without taking out a loan--and we were poor--I just MADE the money to pay for it. My own initiative.


Access to education is not a privilege that the feds can wave at you, its an entitled right. You should learn to EARN everything you get in life--I can see no better way to LEARN too make a living than with college.


The situation is different under communism. Where you technically don't have to work, however you would be social outcast and ignored by most people.

Hey, I'm a Capitalist on a Communist forum--and I'm coping with being an outcast just fine. I may be a trail blazer--but I'm sure other will follow in my wake.


Why? Because you're not entitled to live off the labor of others, that parasitism. That's what the ownership class does everyday, live off the labor of others.

And it's different for Communists? Your word "entilted" say it all. :)

[Dust Bunnies]

Would you like it in a box? Would you like it with a fox? Would you like it in a house? Would you like it with a mouse? Would you like it here or there? Would you like it anywhere?

I want it with some faux news please. I'm all for volunteering but forcing it on a person I think could cause some problems...

College kid beats old lady.

Highschool kid dents car from picked up soda can

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

All these are their own choices. I went through a major American University (Georgetown) (albeit a while ago) without taking out a loan--and we were poor--I just MADE the money to pay for it. My own initiative. Rofl When was the last time you went there? Georgetown costs 50 thousand dollars a year, its one of the most unaffordable colleges in the nation. It’s a den of privilege. Hell, most Gtown kids need a swift kick in the groin to keep em from smelling their perfumed farts.



You should learn to EARN everything you get in life--I can see no better way to LEARN too make a living than with college. Eh no. Learning is a right that should be equal for everyone. The rich shouldn’t get top quality education while the poor scrape by in severely under funded schools and increasingly expensive community and state colleges. If you think someone from South Central LA, can afford a Georgetown education on a part time job alone, you’re woefully out of touch with real working people. Which makes sense, in my experience some of the worst offenders are the horatio algers of the world.


Hey, I'm a Capitalist on a Communist forum--and I'm coping with being an outcast just fine. I may be a trail blazer--but I'm sure other will follow in my wake. We tolerate you because you’re nice, and this is just a forum. Actions are rather different from words. If this was a worker’s cooperative and you were sitting around all day and refused to do work, I would pick up a shovel and deck you to the floor.



And it's different for Communists? Your word "entilted" say it all. Huh? Communists have to pull their weight, but everyone, communists included, have an unconditional right to access education. It’s an abuse of power to make some form of servitude a condition of that access, especially when the rich don’t have to jump through those hoops. I'm curious though, are you making your kids pay for thier college education? Or are you providing some kind of "help."

[Bear MacMillan]

In the program I am in in my High School, we have to do like, 15 hours of community service a year. Everyone except mabye a dozen students either bullshit it or don't do it.

[Bud Struggle]

Rofl When was the last time you went there? Georgetown costs 50 thousand dollars a year, its one of the most unaffordable colleges in the nation. It’s a den of privilege. Hell, most Gtown kids need a swift kick in the groin to keep em from smelling their perfumed farts.

It was a while, I'll grant you--but I put myself through. And there were rich kids--good for them--I made it on my own--good for me.



Eh no. Learning is a right that should be equal for everyone. The rich shouldn’t get top quality education while the poor scrape by in severely under funded schools and increasingly expensive community and state colleges.

You have to learn that YOU have to make the decisions for your life. You want to be poor and call yourself that--fine, then be poor. If you see life as an opportunity--then you will have no problem. Attitude is EVERYTHING.


If you think someone from South Central LA, can afford a Georgetown education on a part time job alone, you’re woefully out of touch with real working people. Which makes sense, in my experience some of the worst offenders are the horatio algers of the world.

My father was a deaf immigrant from Poland, a wonderful man and father, but he was a factory worker (and on the low end of that.) I respect him, but I decided to do what I want. I had a bit more ambition. Nothing wrong with his choices in life or mine. And you may dimish the "Heratio Algers" but they are the real workers in this world--not some free lay about that's "entitled."


We tolerate you because you’re nice, and this is just a forum. Actions are rather different from words. If this was a worker’s cooperative and you were sitting around all day and refused to do work, I would pick up a shovel and deck you to the floor. Well, I am nice, and that's part of my success story, but I would pick up a shovel and give it to you and tell you you this shovel is your key to unlimited wealth--and you wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. Would you?



Huh? Communists have to pull their weight, but everyone, communists included, have an unconditional right to access education. Through high school--I agree. Anything more than that the person has to earn it. It's good for his/her character.


It’s an abuse of power to make some form of servitude a condition of that access, especially when the rich don’t have to jump through those hoops. I'm curious though, are you making your kids pay for thier college education? Or are you providing some kind of "help."

My 14 yo is working at a friend's factory 20 hours a week. I may help her if I choose--but she's going to learn how clean toilets and do every other menial job to earn her way. On the other hand I provide her with her $60k Arabian for her horsemanship--there are perks to being my kid, true.

[Robert]

Learning is a right that should be equal for everyone.

Do you believe harder working students should get the first choice of where they go to school? Or do you decide that for them? What if they're geniuses? Georgetown doesn't let in just anybody with a $50,000 check, I assume you know this. Admittedly there's some nepotism, but it's typically an insignificant percentage of the overall student body. Most kids scored very highly on their SAT's, as my genius friend TomK Alger indubitably did.

Hooray for Hooratio!

[534634634265]

i scored "incredibly" well on all my school testing, according to others.:)
i then proceded to be a shiftless fuckoff for 3 years.:(
it took that time for me to learn that doing well on a test wasn't going to get me any further than being a shiftless fuckoff. now i'm accepted to a private college which only takes 400 students a year, and i'm actually eager to do the work they give me. what a change having to make it on your own can bring about.:cool:
if you think doing some community service in order to get your high school diploma is abusive, you must have quite the sheltered life.:rolleyes:
im lucky enough now to see the fruits of my labor paying off, but i also know the necessity of the work to be done. those who claim doing a meager amount of community service is slavery are blind to the same expectations that a socialist or communist state would have. i look forward to working hard next to my proletarian brothers, but the key to all of that is WORKING HARD.
unfortunately, my generation knows shit about working hard. i'm part of what is likely THE most entitled and spoiled youth ever. i'm ashamed honestly.

[pusher robot]

If this was a worker’s cooperative and you were sitting around all day and refused to do work, I would pick up a shovel and deck you to the floor.

There it is, ladies and gentlemen, the perfect summary of your utopia. If you want a vision of the communist future, imagine a shovel smashing a human face - forever.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ What a pathetic attempt at invoking Orwell, considering the consumerist boot on most people's faces already. :rolleyes:

[pusher robot]

^^^ What a pathetic attempt at invoking Orwell, considering the consumerist boot on most people's faces already. :rolleyes:

Oh I agree, the depths of my suffering under the brutal oppression of being offered a wide array of goods and services at fair prices knows no bounds.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

It was a while, I'll grant you--but I put myself through. And there were rich kids--good for them--I made it on my own--good for me.

I’m saddened to tell you that Georgetown isn’t a realistic goal except for the wealthy and those lucky few who land a scholarship. Though of course if you can do it why can’t everyone? Of course in a zero sum game ie capitalism, somebody’s gotta eat the shit, so even if we all went to college, our material position wouldn’t change.


You have to learn that YOU have to make the decisions for your life. You want to be poor and call yourself that--fine, then be poor. If you see life as an opportunity--then you will have no problem. Attitude is EVERYTHING. I’m an absurdist, I take responsibility for my life. However attitude ain’t got nothing to do with it. Capitalism is a zero sum game, predicated on a whole lot a losers and a few winners. And no matter how you cut it, most likely if you’re born with the “losers,” you’re not gonna become a winner. Well you could work your ass off, forgo a real social life, chain yourself to the brutality of the market, get that small business loan, and then maybe just maybe, your business doesn’t fail, and after a good 10 years of ulcer inducing work you get that company off the ground and you start living the good life. Though usually by that point your children hate you, and your spouse is banging a coworker.

Btw I’m not poor, I’m working class.


My father was a deaf immigrant from Poland, a wonderful man and father, but he was a factory worker (and on the low end of that.) I respect him, but I decided to do what I want. I had a bit more ambition. Nothing wrong with his choices in life or mine. And you may dimish the "Heratio Algers" but they are the real workers in this world--not some free lay about that's "entitled." My father grew up in a series of garages/shacks without running water. Two can play at this game.

This is what I really love about capitalist ideology. Ambition becomes synonymous with exploitation. Do you really think you’re doing something all that worthwhile? Aside from the fact that you are stealing from your workers, enriching yourself while they produce most of the value, do you really make anything of worth? Is it anything all that worthwhile? Have you really contributed anything to the human condition? Or have you become just another factory owner, producing the latest batch of random stuff. Why is it that business sense=goodness in this society? Wouldn’t you have rather put that expensive education to better use? You know…become a doctor at least.


Well, I am nice, and that's part of my success story, but I would pick up a shovel and give it to you and tell you you this shovel is your key to unlimited wealth--and you wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about. Would you? But that’s the thing. You’re not a success. You’re just another administrator of the assembly line, one in an endless chronology of bosses, generals, and slave masters. You’re very good at stealing, but that’s about it.

Hard work for a capitalist master never led to unimaginable wealth. Tell that to the Irish of South Boston who have been working with shovels ever since they came here. It’s a crap shoot. One in a million gets enough breaks to become a Carnegie, but most don’t. I’ve done hard labor for a boss, its no fun, it doesn’t build character. When I was in New Orleans I dug ditches for days on end that built character. It was a real contribution of solidarity and mutual aid.


Through high school--I agree. Anything more than that the person has to earn it. It's good for his/her character. Earn? Nonsense, high school is barely an education these days; higher education is one of the few times where you can get something approaching a real repository of ideas. Everyone has a right to that repository. Learning is a foundation of our basic humanity; life is learning, and disallowing that is a crime.


My 14 yo is working at a friend's factory 20 hours a week. I may help her if I choose--but she's going to learn how clean toilets and do every other menial job to earn her way. On the other hand I provide her with her $60k Arabian for her horsemanship--there are perks to being my kid, true. Not answering the question. Are you or are you not going to help her pay for college?

And damn! You spent 60k on a bloody horse? That’s more than my family makes in a year. Does anyone see a problem with an economic system when a horse is worth more than the average family salary in largest economy in the world?

[Bud Struggle]

I’m saddened to tell you that Georgetown isn’t a realistic goal except for the wealthy and those lucky few who land a scholarship. Though of course if you can do it why can’t everyone? Of course in a zero sum game ie capitalism, somebody’s gotta eat the shit, so even if we all went to college, our material position wouldn’t change.

It's was a realistic goal for me--I went there because it was Catholic. And I am Catholic. And I was poor.


I’m an absurdist, I take responsibility for my life. However attitude ain’t got nothing to do with it. Capitalism is a zero sum game, predicated on a whole lot a losers and a few winners. And no matter how you cut it, most likely if you’re born with the “losers,” you’re not gonna become a winner. Well you could work your ass off, forgo a real social life, chain yourself to the brutality of the market, get that small business loan, and then maybe just maybe, your business doesn’t fail, and after a good 10 years of ulcer inducing work you get that company off the ground and you start living the good life. Though usually by that point your children hate you, and your spouse is banging a coworker.

I retired for my first busnness (commercial real estate--my neice runs the company) at 40--then I started up a chemical manufacturing and trading company in my garage--so now I'm doing this.


Btw I’m not poor, I’m working class.

Me too.


My father grew up in a series of garages/shacks without running water. Two can play at this game.

Fine.


This is what I really love about capitalist ideology. Ambition becomes synonymous with exploitation. Do you really think you’re doing something all that worthwhile? Aside from the fact that you are stealing from your workers, enriching yourself while they produce most of the value, do you really make anything of worth? Is it anything all that worthwhile? Have you really contributed anything to the human condition? Or have you become just another factory owner, producing the latest batch of random stuff. Why is it that business sense=goodness in this society? Wouldn’t you have rather put that expensive education to better use? You know…become a doctor at least.

I make jobs.


But that’s the thing. You’re not a success. You’re just another administrator of the assembly line, one in an endless chronology of bosses, generals, and slave masters. You’re very good at stealing, but that’s about it.

Fine--I'm not a success.


Hard work for a capitalist master never led to unimaginable wealth. Tell that to the Irish of South Boston who have been working with shovels ever since they came here. It’s a crap shoot. One in a million gets enough breaks to become a Carnegie, but most don’t. I’ve done hard labor for a boss, its no fun, it doesn’t build character. When I was in New Orleans I dug ditches for days on end that built character. It was a real contribution of solidarity and mutual aid.

Kid--you have to make your own way in life. Till the revolution comes and we're all living in la la land you have to make do for yourself.


Earn? Nonsense, high school is barely an education these days; higher education is one of the few times where you can get something approaching a real repository of ideas. Everyone has a right to that repository. Learning is a foundation of our basic humanity; life is learning, and disallowing that is a crime.

You miss the point of education--you are educated as far as you are a useful member of society. It's worthwhile to society that you read and write and add and subtract--that's what your free education is for. If you want do something more than that--you have to earn it, because that's for you.


Not answering the question. Are you or are you not going to help her pay for college?
Yup, I am. But she has nothing to do with this conversation--you are talking to ME, the guy who did it himself. [My daughter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtY1W1LGE8w&NR=1 :wub: She'll be fighting for the Capitalist side in the revolution. :D]


And damn! You spent 60k on a bloody horse? That’s more than my family makes in a year. Does anyone see a problem with an economic system when a horse is worth more than the average family salary in largest economy in the world?

It's a pretty horse. :)

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

It's was a realistic goal for me--I went there because it was Catholic. And I am Catholic. And I was poor. Well it’s isn’t realistic for poor Catholics these days. Though in the realm of Catholicism there’s certainly a lower Koolaid drinker to rational individual ratio at Gtown than other Catholic schools. Man those churches are gonna make beautiful museums.


I retired for my first busnness (commercial real estate--my neice runs the company) at 40--then I started up a chemical manufacturing and trading company in my garage--so now I'm doing this. So in addition to being a thief with cop protection, you were a real estate speculator. Glad to see you at least make things now.


Me too. You bought a 60 thousand dollar horse; you’re not working class anymore. You’re an owner, enjoy it already.


I make jobs. Now now, don’t pride yourself on stealing from others.


Fine--I'm not a success. Glad to see you admit it.


Kid--you have to make your own way in life. Till the revolution comes and we're all living in la la land you have to make do for yourself. Yup, I sure do. I work, I go to uni, I even volunteer at a youth center! But, but, but collective struggle is the way to go in capitalism. It’s a great way to ensure a better work environment, and a fatter checkbook.


You miss the point of education--you are educated as far as you are a useful member of society. It's worthwhile to society that you read and write and add and subtract--that's what your free education is for. If you want do something more than that--you have to earn it, because that's for you. That’s not education, that’s preparing the slaves. Education is a personal right, like health care, food, water, and shelter. If food and water are the necessities of biological survival, education is a necessity for any kind of intellectual survival. High school education today spends most of the time teaching you how to obey, that the US is “awfully sorry” for slaughtering the Natives, and that learning isn’t any fun.


Yup, I am. But she has nothing to do with this conversation--you are talking to ME, the guy who did it himself. [My daughter: She'll be fighting for the Capitalist side in the revolution. But she has everything to do with the conversation. Now that you are part of the ownership class, your daughter is entitled to certain privileges. Namely, she doesn’t have to worry about paying for a Georgetown education, because daddy can pay for it. She doesn’t have to earn her slot, unlike working folk.

And please don’t joke about her fighting on the side of the capitalists. Revolutions can be a bloody business. Paramilitary civilian forces come out after most of the military has mutinied or the police are neutralized. That usually means a pretty high casualty rate, win or lose, for the capitalists. And while I don’t like capitalists, I don’t want to kill them, only socialize their property.




It's a pretty horse. :)I'm sure it was nice. But something is wrong when 1600 children die every day from starvation, while you buy a 60 thousand dollar horse. The system has failed.

[Bud Struggle]

Well it’s isn’t realistic for poor Catholics these days. Though in the realm of Catholicism there’s certainly a lower Koolaid drinker to rational individual ratio at Gtown than other Catholic schools. Man those churches are gonna make beautiful museums.

It was the Church that was one of the factors the brought down Communism in the SU and the Eastern Block. Remember when Stalin asked how many divisions the Pope had--well he's still there and the Soviet Union is gone.


So in addition to being a thief with cop protection, you were a real estate speculator. Glad to see you at least make things now.

Just name calling here.


You bought a 60 thousand dollar horse; you’re not working class anymore. You’re an owner, enjoy it already. I work-I'm a worker. I'm anything I say I am. I don't happen to follow Marx's definition of things.


Now now, don’t pride yourself on stealing from others. Name calling again.


Glad to see you admit it. If you are happy--you are a success. And I'm happy.


Yup, I sure do. I work, I go to uni, I even volunteer at a youth center! But, but, but collective struggle is the way to go in capitalism. It’s a great way to ensure a better work environment, and a fatter checkbook. Keep it up and you may get a real job someday. Good for you.


That’s not education, that’s preparing the slaves. Education is a personal right, like health care, food, water, and shelter. If food and water are the necessities of biological survival, education is a necessity for any kind of intellectual survival. High school education today spends most of the time teaching you how to obey, that the US is “awfully sorry” for slaughtering the Natives, and that learning isn’t any fun.

So be a slave. It's not my concern.


But she has everything to do with the conversation. Now that you are part of the ownership class, your daughter is entitled to certain privileges. Namely, she doesn’t have to worry about paying for a Georgetown education, because daddy can pay for it. She doesn’t have to earn her slot, unlike working folk. I can't help it if I love my kid. I work hard and am a good provide for her and the rest of my family. I can't help it of your father didn't do the same for you.

He certainly tought you how to make excuses for not succeeding.


And please don’t joke about her fighting on the side of the capitalists. Revolutions can be a bloody business. Paramilitary civilian forces come out after most of the military has mutinied or the police are neutralized. That usually means a pretty high casualty rate, win or lose, for the capitalists. And while I don’t like capitalists, I don’t want to kill them, only socialize their property.

There's precious little chance of a revolution. There some real good things about places like RevLeft--they are a place people can go and learn about different economic and political systems and why some work and why some fail, but as a catalyst for revolution--nope. It ain't coming, so your have to get used to it. and even if it does come I and people like me will be in charge--so nothing really is going to change.


I'm sure it was nice. But something is wrong when 1600 children die every day from starvation, while you buy a 60 thousand dollar horse. The system has failed. There should be more and better distribution of food in the world, I'll agree with that--but Communism isn't the way--Cuba has very little food and and the Soviet Union and Communist China (before it started to go Capitalist, of course,) has their share of starvation times. The system hasn't failed just because there is inequality of pay--some people are willing to work harrder to get a bit more than other people. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't see Communism happening--it my friend, is yesterday's news. But it does have a lot of good thing to teach everyone. A lot of thing about fairness and regard for workers and workers rights.

Best of luck on your future! And be happy!

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

It was the Church that was one of the factors the brought down Communism in the SU and the Eastern Block. Remember when Stalin asked how many divisions the Pope had--well he's still there and the Soviet Union is gone. *shrugs* 1 out of two ain’t bad ya know? I’m just as happy as you are to see state capitalism and dictatorship fall. Catholicism is dying a slow death anyway. Church numbers are down across the board. 160 Irish priests died last year and only 9 were ordained. 2/3rds of the Irish priesthood will be gone by 2028! Yippee! Even in Latin America you’re losing ground! Give it 100 years and Catholicism will be gone.


Just name calling ere. Not name calling at all. You are committing theft. Your workers produce your company’s product and then you sell the product. You give your workers a small bit of that sale and then you pocket the rest. Even if you’re the manager/owner you’re making far more than your share, while your workers are paid a pittance. Thus “Property is theft.”


I work-I'm a worker. I'm anything I say I am. I don't happen to follow Marx's definition of things. You are an owner Arabian horse dude, just accept it. If you went to Harlan County, West Virginia and said “I’m a worker!” They would laugh their asses off.


Name calling again. Nope, just pointing out that you steal surplus value from your workers, silly goose.


If you are happy--you are a success. And I'm happy. Now you’re going back on your word. Come on now, admitting you have a problem is the first step in solving it!


Keep it up and you may get a real job someday. Good for you. Define “real job.” This seems dangerously similar to “successful” or “ambitious.” Do “real jobs” involve the exploitation of others? Or do they merely require a high salary or a long arduous college degree? Pleasing capitalists is so particular!


So be a slave. It's not my concern. Well now I just feel hurt.


I can't help it if I love my kid. I work had and am a good provide for her and the rest of my family. I can't help it of your father didn't do the same for you.

He certainly tought you how to make excuses for not succeeding. You’re missing the issue again! My point is that forcing working folk to “earn” their way into college while the rich waltz right in. Doesn’t seem very fair to me. And nice try with the father snaps! But no, your bait is too obvious.


There's precious little chance of a revolution. There's a good chance your get a job in a few years and forget all about all this revLeft stuff. Revolution is a lifelong process. It takes decades of organizing small and moderate victories before you reach a critical mass. I’m content to settle down, get a job, have kids, and make my boss the saddest person on the planet. Oh how I wish that boss is you!


There should be more and better distribution of food in the world, I'll agree with that--but Communism isn't the way--Cuba has very little food and and the Soviet Union and Communist China (before it started to go Capitalist) has their share of starvation times.

I don't see Communism happening--it my friend, is yesterday's news. Best of luck on your future! Cuba and the Soviet Union never were communist, or even socialist. They were state capitalist. While the state owned the means of production, things were about the same as in capitalist nations. Please find a new reason to support the death of thousands of innocent children while you buy fancy Arabian horses. Why not buy a 30k horse and donate the rest to those kids? So selfish!

[534634634265]

yeah, lets all get bogged down in each others personal lives until this thread dissolves in to childish pot-shots and name calling. yeah!!:rolleyes:(THIS IS MY SARCASTIC FACE)
what a bunch of fucktards. this isnt about Tomk's child, or his child horse(its a fucking expensive horse, we get it) its about...
COMMUNITY SERVICE IN HIGH SCHOOL!
god for fucking bid we stay on topic though. community service in schools has nothing to do with any of our personal lives. it was stupid of Tom to bring his into it, but he doesn't need to be nailed to a cross in order to understand that. anyone who sees a relation between the success of a openly capitalist factory owner and doing OMGWTFBBQ 100 HOURS OF COMMUNITY SERVICE is an idiot who exagerates to extremes in order to make a point. what a weak way to win an argument. the point Tom, and coincidentally I, have been arguing is that doing a few hours of hard work because your a high school student isn't so bad. these days students already have to do a senior project consisting of WAAAYY more work just to get their diploma.
grow up or drop it you halfwits.

[Bud Struggle]

You are right CL--I was being an ass. We shouldn't let this thing get personal or off topic. :blushing:

[Lost In Translation]

OK, now that we've ceased the half-page rebuttals, let's get back on track.

Where I live, the education system demands that you finish 30 hours of community service, and 80 hours of physical education outside of school in one year (this is high school btw).

[534634634265]

OK, now that we've ceased the half-page rebuttals, let's get back on track.

Where I live, the education system demands that you finish 30 hours of community service, and 80 hours of physical education outside of school in one year (this is high school btw).

i think they give you your entire high school career to do that though, right?. the school i went to now requires a similar program, and they call it the senior project. its apparently a growing movement to make kids realize that being part of a community isn't just for old squares.

[Lost In Translation]

i think they give you your entire high school career to do that though, right?. the school i went to now requires a similar program, and they call it the senior project. its apparently a growing movement to make kids realize that being part of a community isn't just for old squares.

That's certainly encouraging. A few years ago, I see all these people nearing the end of their careers still working at grocery stores, while the teenagers are spending wildly. It's good to see that the tables have turned somewhat.

[534634634265]

That's certainly encouraging. A few years ago, I see all these people nearing the end of their careers still working at grocery stores, while the teenagers are spending wildly. It's good to see that the tables have turned somewhat.

i would agree, however if those wild teens made that money themselves they can spend it as they please.:bored: i shudder to think how much money i wasted buying weed, liquor, and performance car parts.:blushing: learning to take care of money responsibly is something that should be taught but isn't.:closedeyes: