Cuba IS A FAILURE - ---and that's all it is.

[MaxB]

Socialism failed in Cuba after the first five years, and as hard as they tried, they couldn't revive it again. If it was so good in Cuba, houndreds of thousands wouldn't be trying to leave the island. But wait, there's more. Castro, and the rest of his cronies, have been quietly (yes, quietly) implementing Capitalistic programs into their failed Socialistic economy to bring the economy back to life. For example, peasants are now allowed to sale their own products in the public market and make a profit (Oh, my gosh---PROFIT---this is a no-no in Socialism). Also, Castro has allowed foreing "investors" (foreing Corporations), namely from Canada, Spain, France, Italy, and Germany, to open chains of hotels and resurrect the once dead tourist industry in Cuba. Last, but not least, the houndreds of millions of Dollars sent by Cubans outside the island to their families in Cuba has helped a lot. So why then not admitted that CAPITALISM is saving the Cuban economy? It has to do with saving face: You see a Leftist, like Castro and his ass kissing cronies, would never admit to having failed in their quest for la-la Land, so what they do is "revise" Socialism by incorporating Capitalistic measures to improve the dismal living conditions in Cuba. Once Socialism has been revised in this fashion, it isn't Socialism anymore---they might still want to call it a Marxist revolution, but that revolution is long gone and FAILED.
To add insult to injury, Castro since day one was bent on destroying the U. S. and the semi-Capitalistic systems of the world. Is it any wonder that the U. S. refuses to help Cuba. What rational individual would lend a hand to a person that's trying to destroy him?
But Castro, in the last 10 years, has toned down somewhat his rhetoric aginst the West and has been trying to get the U. S. to do business with Cuba. Only a liar, amoral, immoral, arrogant, hypocrite would ask the system (Capitalism) he hates and despises so much to bail him out of poverty and misery; but those are the Leftists for you.
Despite some (and I mean little) improvements in the economy (thanks to the foreing private sector and the Yankee Dollar), the politically scene remains basically the same: the Cuban press is owned and controlled by the Cuban government, anybody who dares to publicly denounce Marxism is fired from his job and in many instances arrested. In Cuba, if you're fired from your job, you can't go anywhere else because all industries are either owned by the government or closely monitored (the foreing tourist industies) by the Communist party.
Again, a reminder, that Socialism is not Democratic---even Marx in his writings and Lenin in practice proved this. Socialism is only "Democratic" if everybody would be Socialist and this is an impossibility. Unlike the U. S. and other Western societies, where people are allowed to voice their own opinion, in a Marxist society this is not allwed---SOME DEMOCRACY THIS SOCIALISM IS.
Comes election time in the U. S., if you closely look at the voting ballot, you'll see a Commuist party, a Socialist party, a Fascist party, a Worker's party, etc. Yes, they're there and you can vote for them; it just happens that most people do not vote for them so they never win. In Cuba, under Castro, you'll never see a Capitalist party in a voting ballot. Our definition of Democracy is: you can express your own opinion no matter how much we might disagree with it---You sorry ass Leftists are doing it right now in this forum (What's even worse for you recycled Commies is that your doing it here with technology developed back in 1969 by the U. S. Department of Defense---the internet was then a secret U. S. project called ARPANET). A Leftist's definition of Democracy is: if the Communist party approves of what you're saying, then it's ok.
You Marxists would be comical if you wern't so pathetic.

[Xvall]

Yay! An article that wasn't copied and pasted! Where to begin? I'll just point out one thing for now.

Again, a reminder, that Socialism is not Democratic

I do not see where in Marx's writings that this was stated. In fact, if I recall what he wrote in the communist manifesto, he fully supported Democracy.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Lots to say, lot's to say, where to begin?

Well, Cuba has allowed foreign hotel chains on the island for a very long time. It's nothing new.

People have been allowed to sell their own products, also for a very long time. Though the profit is shared among the community.

Even more people from Mexico, Puerto Rico, El Salvador, etc. move to the US in much larger quantities than Cubans.

Socialism is quite Democratic, Capitalism though, is not. And how come you can't accept the fact that there can exist such a thing as a democratic one-party system?

Cuba is now in the dictatorship of the Proletariat, a long one at that, but nevertheless in the track to Communism. If you ask me, it's a bit failed though.

Castro is not a liar, amoral, immoral, arrogant, hypocrite. He is simply trying to bring some happiness to his people. It's impossible to have a succesful Communist regime with only one small nation, lacking in natural resources involved.

I'd rather live in Cuba over any third-world country any day.

[BasementAddix]

My father "immergrated" from Cuba about 5 years after Castro came into power...one day I'd like to go with him back there....he's an American citizen now for many years...but he's afraid they wont let him leave...damn shame...i heard its nice...

[American Kid]

Explain how a one-party system could be democratic?

What if I wanted to vote for someone in some other party?
-AK

[James]

how is an election in the UK democratic AK?

The UK being one of the most capitalist places on this earth

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

AK, instead of voting on a candidate, you would vote on a decission to brought about by the single enstated party. A direct democracy, not a representative democracy like what it is in the US. Much more democratic and little, if no chance of corruption. Supposedly, the system enstated in Cuba. Bush is simply too narrow-minded to see. Then he goes off giving speeches about how he refuses to end the embargo unless Castro holds fair and competitive elections for the seat of Prime Minister. These speeches are of course only in order to appease the Cubans in Miami.
Stupid, stupid, hypocritical, filthy, putriid, evil, conniving, fascist, president dubaya.

[ComradeJunichi]

Democracy. Demos - People. Cracy - Rule.

If the state is a tool for the proletariat, who are the majority, then that is democracy.

[antieverything]

Give me a fucking break, you sheep.

1. Cuba is not democratic. Democracy that extends only to the point where it runs contrary to the wishes of a dictator is not democracy at all.

2. Cuba is a victory for the collectivist ideal

(Edited by antieverything at 10:49 pm on Dec. 24, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

Pure Democracy is next to impossible to achieve. It takes small African tribes years to arrive on one decision becuase of their Democracy. If Marx believed in pure Democracy, he's unrealistic fool.

[ComradeJunichi]

antieverything, were you talking to me? I never said Cuba was democratic.

[RGacky3]

Cuba has done the best job ou of ANY latin country, not even the cappies can argue that.

[Behind enemy lines]

Max B, have you been to Cuba and seen the 'horrible' country?

If not, can you tell fact from fiction?


(Edited by Behind enemy lines at 8:51 pm on Dec. 26, 2002)

[MaxB]

Yes, I visited Cuba thru Mexico and stayed in Havana for 4 days. It is a one party political system. There's plenty of poverty in the streets. As soon as people know you're a tourist they'll all over you. So the "revolution" made some advancements in the medical field---the U. S., the U.K., Germany, France, Japan, Italy, etc. have also made MORE advacements in the medical field and OTHER fields. Yes, medecine is free in Cuba, but the problem is that there is a shortage of medecine in Cuba.
Nothing in life is free, and if you're getting a free ride that means someone else, somewhere, is paying for it.
Talking politics in the streets of Havana is a no-no. You can only speak favorably of the present system. While I never supported the Batista regime, I don't support the Castro regime eithere. In 1959, many people wanted a "revolution" but most didn't want Marxism. Castro came in with the promise: "My revolution is as green as the palms of my country". Only after Castro consolidated power did he declare himself a Marxist.
The other most popular rebel after Castro was Camilo Cienfuegos---a non-Communist. Cienfuegos "disappeared" right after the revolution in a plane accident. In other words, Cienfuegos would have been the other "choice" for Prime Minister of the island. EVERYBODY loved Cienfuegos.
Except for a few token ass-kissers (Vilma Espin, Raul, and couple of others), most of those revolutionaries that started out with Castro in Sierra Maestra have either died of natural causes, died in some sort of "accident", imprisoned as "traitors" to the revolution, or left Cuba altogther.
Other revelation of the Cuban "revolution":
Among the revolutionary myths that come crashing down:
- Find out why the Barbudos of Fidel Castro's 26th of July movement were not the romantic revolutionaries the American media like The New York Times (and even the Cuban press under Batista like Bohemia), made them out to be.

- What was the Revolutionary Directorate (RD), the 13th of March movement? Who were its leaders? Why wasn't the American media interested in these anticommunist rebels? In a pivotal speech after the triumph of the Revolution in 1959, why did Fidel Castro ask the RD and the Cuban people: ¿Armas, para que? ("Guns, for what?") Shortly thereafter, why were the civilian population methodically disarmed and opponents of the regime sought out by State Security?

- What happened to the Cuban uprising that was supposed to, but never did, materialize near Trinidad, a "counterrevolutionary" stronghold during or after the Bay of Pigs invasion? You will also find out how opponents of the regime were rounded up and executed at the time of the ill-fated invasion.

- Learn the venal details of the October Missile Crisis (1962) and the ramifications of the secret Kennedy-Khruschev Pact that sealed the fate of the Cuban people for forty years. Find out what went on in the island during the Missile Crisis - and the plans and intentions of the Cuban Maximum Leader.

- The socialist workers' paradise is exposed for what it is, namely, a brutal police state. George Orwell's 1984 arrived in Cuba in the 1960s --- twenty-five years early! And like in Orwell's Animal Farm, the privileged revolutionaries became the ruling elite, the mayimbes, the new masters who were more equal than the rest of the Cuban people-the liborios.

- The promised agrarian reforms became forced collectivization, desolation of the beautiful Cuban countryside, and destruction of a once beautiful and prosperous country - particularly, as revealed in the brutal offensive against the anti-communist Escambray rebels and their campesino supporters between 1960-1965. Although this sanginary, drawn out conflict resembled the extermination of the Kulaks by Stalin in the USSR, it was ignored by the U.S. media, the same media which adored Fidel Castro and helped his ascension to power.

-Given the "great advances" of the Revolution on education and health care in Cuba in the 1970s and 1980s, are the Cuban people really better off today than they were in 1958 under Batista? Are Cubans today really better off than other citizens in Latin American countries?

Among the revelations that come to light:

- Given the popularity of the Maximum Leader and his romantic revolutionaries, why did Fidel Castro find it necessary to follow the police state tactics common to all tyrannies: The knock on the door in the middle of the night, raids, seizures, surveillance, identification cards, and of course, gun control.

- What happened to Castro's Wars of National Liberation in Africa and Central America during the 1970s and 1980s?

-What evidence is there that Fidel Castro and his brother Raúl are involved in drug trafficking. Who was General Arnaldo Ochoa?

Many of these questions are answered in the book Cuba in Revolution---Escape from a Lost Paradise by Miguel A. Faria, Jr., M. D.

[PunkRawker677]

MaxB, I lived in Cuba. So get ready to get your ass kicked all over the floor.

"I visited Cuba thru Mexico and stayed in Havana for 4 days."
You stayed in a tourist city and center. in those four days you missed the real Cuba. Try again asshole.

"It is a one party political system."
And you found this out on your 4 day joy trip to Havana? I'm sorry.

"There's plenty of poverty in the streets."
Been to Miami? New York? Seattle? I can go on, but hopefully you get my point.

"As soon as people know you're a tourist they'll all over you."
As with almost every other third world democratic capitalist country. Point still missed.

"So the "revolution" made some advancements in the medical field---the U. S., the U.K., Germany, France, Japan, Italy, etc. have also made MORE advacements in the medical field and OTHER fields."
Okay? They both made advancements. Congratulations, you have graduated from third grade.

"Yes, medecine is free in Cuba, but the problem is that there is a shortage of medecine in Cuba. "
As there is in every other third world country, but in the other third world country you have to pay for the little that you can get. In cuba, you don't.

"Nothing in life is free, and if you're getting a free ride that means someone else, somewhere, is paying for it. "
Thanks for the definition of Capitalism.

"Talking politics in the streets of Havana is a no-no."
Really? I did it on a regular basis, before i was a socialist. I openly spoke bad of Castro and recieved equal criticism and praise.

"You can only speak favorably of the present system. "
I think i just touched on that

"While I never supported the Batista regime, I don't support the Castro regime eithere."
Good for you. I think its clear you don't support Castro.

"In 1959, many people wanted a "revolution" but most didn't want Marxism."
Most DID want Marxism. Perhaps not the type of marxism seen today in Cuba, but they certainly did want marxism.

"Castro came in with the promise: "My revolution is as green as the palms of my country". Only after Castro consolidated power did he declare himself a Marxist.
The other most popular rebel after Castro was Camilo Cienfuegos---a non-Communist. "
Castro was an open communist, along with Che, from the days in Mexico.

"Cienfuegos "disappeared" right after the revolution in a plane accident. In other words, Cienfuegos would have been the other "choice" for Prime Minister of the island. EVERYBODY loved Cienfuegos. "
And dieing in a plane accident which couldn't be found is soooooo rare? Has it never happened before? Maybe the easter bunny kidnapped him and raped his big toe.

I don't want 'that' book, and i sure as hell wont read it. so, i sign off today with a nice Fuck You.

Sincerely,
Fuck you,
Punk Rawker.

[MaxB]

Paunrawker, you are a jerk off---un Comunista come mierda. Go back to FUCKIN' Cuba if you think is so hot. It's good to defend Communism while you're eating the ham in some Capitalist country. Go back y lambeale el culo a tu papito Fidel so maricon.

[ComradeJunichi]

He is going back to Cuba.

[PunkRawker677]

Thanks Junichi! and yes MaxB, i am going back. Unfortunatly i was brought back to the u.s. in my teens and have no had the oppurtunity to go back seeing as i was a minor. And thanks... i love being called a Communist shit eater. but i think its you who ate your own shit, seeing as you have no worthwhile reply to anything i said.

[CommunismRATM]

Cuba.... Fidel used Communism as a shield to get into power. He convinced people that it would be good for them and people followed. But what he clearly had in mind was Totalitarism and he achieve it, take a look at Cuba today.

[ComradeJunichi]

Cuba.... Fidel used Communism as a shield to get into power

Yup, that was his plan since he was in his late teens and in college. He went to rallies and riots against the TOTALITARIAN Batista regime, so he can set up a totalitarian government later. He risked his life, been sent to prison, tried, risked his life again to set up a totalitarian government.

He convinced people that it would be good for them and people followed.

Yeah, just like the tiger tells us Frosted Flakes is good for us.

But what he clearly had in mind was Totalitarism and he achieve it, take a look at Cuba today.

Wow, you have no clue what you are talking about. He fought and risked his life for totalitarianism which was already in place, Batista. Okay, I'm looking at Cuba today...hm. Free healthcare, free education, jobs, noone starving. Majority of the people do support Castro, although some want more free elections.

(Edited by ComradeJunichi at 1:19 am on Dec. 28, 2002)

[ElChe]

Hello!
Cuba Today: I recommend you to look to the speech of Fidel Castro to the 47th year after fighting Moncada. That is it what socialism reached in Cuba and that's it we have to fight for in the whole world, for every peoples (the US - American too). A party which is not supported by the people will not be able to exist such a long time as Castro did, particularly not if such a mighty country like the USA fights against it. The 8.1 of 8.2 million eliigible Cubans agreed the socialism, and they did it today, not in past.
(Sorry if my English was not perfect)
Hasta luego!

[Larissa]

I agree with you ElChe, because I lived in Cuba during 1998 and there were political elections going on that year. There is no such ONE political party, the problem is the other two are not organized at all. The Varela Project, for instance, is still a project even when it does have supporters, and everybody is free to vote whoever they want.

Like it or not, they vote for Fidel, and that's why he is still the head of the gov. People in Cuba agree to that. They are not taken to the ballot boxes with guns on their heads!!

[synthesis]

MaxB,

How is Castro's Cuba, with Castro as its sole leader, worse than Haiti under the Duvalier regime, who was solely funded by your beloved U.S.A.? In Cuba, you get free medicine and your children get free education. In the Duvalier's Haiti, you went to the elections and then the ton ton macoutes shot you.

Free elections my ass.

By the way, read this.

http://www.marxmail.org/facts/cuba_gallup.htm

[Zozothedog]

I really feel it is hard to judge Cuba as a success or a faluire. Givin the fact that the "exsperament" of communism in this location had some very harsh and deciding factors that affected its possible outcome, the varialbes include, its location to the worlds LARGEST EMPIRE, its size, its climate, its everything. Aside from external tampering (US, and USSR proxy crap) cuba has many things not goin for it. It aint the biggest place, not does it contain the most nataural recorces, had Cuba been 10 times larger containing and containg vast recorces I am sure it would have "succeded", had the US goverment not tampered with it and posses an unpareled hatred for the small island nation who knows where it would be, givin its location (regards to climate) , its size, natural recorces, and a Rouge Super power breaking internation, and UN laws to break it, Cuba isnt doin that bad. Castro is alive and well, and although the people of cuba do not eat 4000 calories a day at McDonalds and Starbucks, they are doing better than MANY of ther third world contries.

[ErnestoMX]

hi everybody, im new here, but i just wanna say that i totally agree with Zozo, you can't judge so hastily without taking into account all the different factors. Also, i think it SUCKS that people like CommunismRATM that claim to be communists, and even have a Che Avatar, say something like that about Castro. Castro was totally for the people, he was willing to give his life for them. How can you admire Che and not admire Castro when they shared the same ideals? I know why, becuase of all the Propaganda against Cuba, your brain is quite washed. Che must be rolling in his grave! peace.

[Crusader 4 da truth]

Cuba: Common sense analysis

Cuba is a complete failure as a nation state that is readily apparent to anyone with an open mind who is willing to think critically. Despite this many of you in this forum choice to deny this fact, I’m not sure why. It hurts your case if you can’t be honest and admit that Castro is repressive dictator and his methods are no different then that of any other communist state. This includes torture of political dissidents, threats and intimidation of family members; the use of murder, and starvation as a political tool and support of narco trafficking and terror. Again for some reason many of you choice to turn a blind eye to this and accuse me of spreading US government propaganda. In another thread some one actually remarked “Its not that bad they are actually have more freedom then people do in the United States.” Tell that to my friend Juan who’s uncle was shot in the head by Cuban troops for actually having the audacity to lead his family and friends in mass (1974). Again many of you are thinking why should I believe him he’s an evil conservative. We’ll fine don’t believe me Cuba’s human rights abuses are well documented. You need only go to the many LIBREAL human rights organizations for their information. It all chronicles the same awful tragedies. Human Rights Watch (a left wing socialist outfit) has published their 1999 report on Cuba on the web

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/

Its very well organized so you jump around to the relevant topics her is just a snippet from the section titled Repression of Dissidents,

“Cuban authorities continue to treat as criminal offenses nonviolent activities such as meeting to discuss the economy or elections, writing letters to the government, reporting on political or economic developments, speaking to international reporters, or advocating the release of political prisoners”

Again you can check out Amnesty international’s report (another left wing organization)

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/AMR250...f=COUNTRIESCUBA (http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/AMR250022002?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIESCUBA)

This organization is very good at focusing world attention to specific cases where injustice is done.

Last but not least let’s not forget every liberals favorite bureaucracy the United Nations, in December of 1996 the general assembly voted to …
“…called on the Cuban Government to release people detained for political activities.” (the vote was 62 to 25).

Once again in april of 1999 the council in a resolution which was adopted by a roll-call vote of 21 in favour and 20 against, with 1 abstention voted to…
“expressed its concern about the adoption of the Law for the Protection of National Independence and Economy of Cuba, and regretted the other steps taken by the Government which were inconsistent with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other relevant human-rights instruments; called upon the Cuban Government to ensure respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms”

Coming from the United Nations that’s practically a triad!

If you are intellectually honest and all of this bothers you there is something you can do the World Organization Against Torture has all the contact information for key personal in the Cuban government you can urge them to adopt a more transparent form of government.

http://www.omct.org/displaydocument.asp?Do...453&Language=EN (http://www.omct.org/displaydocument.asp?DocType=OBSAppeal&Index=453&Language=EN)





(Edited by Crusader 4 da truth at 3:05 am on Jan. 1, 2003)

[synthesis]

Also, i think it SUCKS that people like CommunismRATM that claim to be communists, and even have a Che Avatar, say something like that about Castro.

I agree; however, you must remember that he, likely, was fed anti-Castro propaganda from the corporate mass media from day one. It is our job to re-educate such people rather than dismissing them entirely, for they obviously show the seed, the potential, to be a true member.

[Crusader 4 da truth]

DyerMaker what specifically bothers u about CommunismRATM comments? At least he is being intellectually honest.

But my question for CommunismRATM is why do you think that same pattern keeps repeating itself with all these communist governments? North Korea. USSR, Cambodia ext. People come into power claiming to represent the people (usually via a coup d'état rarely through an actual election) and they immediately seek to consolidate their power by killing dissidents and oppressing basic human rights of their comrades? Hmmm I wonder.


(Edited by Crusader 4 da truth at 2:25 am on Jan. 1, 2003)

[BatistaNationalista]

Cuba is failure! castro has die! He maked CUba very bad for people! Even Batista was better! We must stop commies in latin America!

[Panamarisen]

**FLASHNEWS**
Seems Pere Jordi (Gazu) is back!

Sorry, guys, but Cuba and Fidel are here to stay..., like it or not.


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Larissa]

Not only it is NOT a failure, but it is also a living proof of what people can achieve when they fight together for a common cause.

Cuba and its people are lively shouting at the world's face that they are not a failure. (Despite the efforts of the Propaganda against socialism)

(Edited by Larissa at 8:16 pm on Jan. 1, 2003)

[BatistaNationalista]

So the common cause was a restriction of freedom? A dictatorship, no free elections, etc?

[ErnestoMX]

Why do u think that the countries u mentioned falied? Most of the communist and socialst states have falied because of CIA interventions, and most of them violent. I won't mention any because i believe that we've through that enough times. You're absolutely right dyermaker, we must take the blind off of all these people's eyes! Something so murderous as the US empire is bound to fall sooner or later, and everyone (yes, even u conservatives) will have freedom, everyone WILL be EQUAL! It has already started in Venezuela and Brazil, and there is no stopping it! HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Alexander Pop]

I agree with Larissa...
the cubans should be a good example to all other nations!
their economy is weak but only because american-like capitalist swines dislike left ideas...only because thataway they don't get their bellys filled with stakes and caviar every day and shit like that.
Cuba should be a good example to all as a nation that advanced in spirit dispite all the repression from capitalist countries.

[antieverything]

Crusader, I know you are smarter than this...nobody argues that Castro doesn't commit human rights abuses. Many of us ARE anti-Castro but also pro-Cuban Revolution. Cuba has not been a failure. Look at its statistics in the CIA world factbook over at www.cia.gov and compare them with other Latin American countries. Now look at the health statistics in comparison with the United States'. Not only will you see that Cuba is NOT a failure but also a very compelling argument for the implementation of Cuban-style socialized health care in the rest of the world...and remember that these statistics are achieved during severe medical supply shortages! Cuba hasn't failed but it isn't perfect either.

A few of you who have lived in Cuba are saying that there are multiparty elections. That is great, but if you read the Cuban constitution you will see that the Cuban CP, answerable to no one, has the right to disallow anyone from running. Any multiparty system will exist only at the whim of the unelected CP leaders. Cuba is not a genuine democracy not because of the lack of free elections but because the major economic decisions are not in the public arena at all... Just like in Capitalist countries.

[Stormin Norman]

"So the common cause was a restriction of freedom? A dictatorship, no free elections, etc? "

Good one!

Does somebody care to explain to me why they are still driving 1957 Chevies if they are so successful? Oh yeah, U.S. oppression, nevermind.

[Larissa]

With all my respects.
"Does somebody care to explain to me why they are still driving 1957 Chevies if they are so successful? Oh yeah, U.S. oppression, nevermind"

Most cars are Fiat, Peugeot, Lada and Dahiatsu. Please, if you haven't been to Cuba lately, don't sy they are still driving 1957 Chevies.

And, it is of public knowledge world-wide that Batista tortured and massacred lots of innocent people!!

Please, I think you are gping a bit far...Cuba is not a paradise but it sure is NOT hell. Batista's Cuba was hell!

[Stormin Norman]

You're right I was perpetuating a general stereotype. However, Fiats, Puegeot, and Dahiatsus are all shitty cars. Sorry, I had to laugh at that.

Seriously, we should revisit the idea of Castro's assassination. I would not shed a tear, not one tear.

[antieverything]

How many people in the rest of Latin America have cars?

[Crusader 4 da truth]

antieverything Cuba is not a failure because they provide free medical care? So what your telling me is the end justifies the means, It’s ok that the people are not free because Castro provides his citizens with their shots (some times with a syringe other times with a bullet). I’m sorry I must disagree. If you want countries to provide their citizens with “free” health care, that’s fine. I personally don’t think that’s a legitimate function of government.

But here is my point Canada and Sweden have socialized medicine, and their governments did not have to torture or murder its own citizens to bring it about. They used a legitimate political process respecting the rule of law and with the consent of the governed. The problem with many of the people in this forum is that the glance over genocide if it serves their purposes. This is morally unacceptable.

[Stormin Norman]

It’s ok that the people are not free because Castro provides his citizens with their shots (some times with a syringe other times with a bullet).

That's how they keep the cost of health care to a minimum. If you get too sick to work, they kill you.

Have you heard anything about Castro's use of bacteria in the water to prevent his people from fleeing?

[antieverything]

Yeah, Norm. I also read in the newspaper that Castro was using genitically altered birds to give Americans west nile virus...so I don't believe everything I read. Castro does suck, though.

Crusader, they aren't a failure because the people are better off than those in most other Latin American countries. The fact that they have a lower infant mortality rate than the US is just icing on the cake! I never said I support human rights abuses. I'm prorevolution, antiCastro. I want to see democracy AND socialism in Cuba.

[ErnestoMX]

nobody argues that Castro doesn't commit human rights abuses
You're Wrong, I argue that. If there's human rights abuses in Cuba, it's not at the request of Castro. I think that he really has geniuine concern for his people, more so than almost any country leader right now.

It’s ok that the people are not free because Castro provides his citizens with their shots
Pepole ARE free!! Just because they're not driving expensive cars, doesn't mean they are not free, or even unhappy. They have a different point of view on what "riches" and "success" mean. Unlike you consumist and individualist imperialists, they (and i'm talking in general) don't measure success by the money they make, or the car they drive, there is other ways to measure your success and your riches.

[Larissa]

Actually, they have different values, values I support, I don't drive a great car either, but thank God, that's not what I'm interested in! My values are not material values. And I am proud of it. It may sound stupid or unacceptable to you, the same way I don't understand why capies make fun of poverty or developing countries in Latin America.

[Panamarisen]

I very much agree with the points of view of Larissa and ErnestoMX.

BTW, SN: Fiat and Peugeot aren´t bad cars at all. And besides, is there anything as beautiful as an old 57 Chevy (indeed, an American car)?
What are you saying about the biological terrorism Cuba is supposedly doing is just a very little part of what actually the Cuban Gov has accused the U$ for years!

Crusader: it´s absurd, to say the least, the idea of making a comparison between such different political/historical/economical background as Cuban´s and Canada´s or Sweden´s. And even so, the only thing you get is demonstrating even more the huge importance and value of what the Cuban Rev and the Cuban Gov have and are still achieving -not only in what has to do with health, but also education, spirit of solidarity and militance, etc.


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!