God first !!! - There's nothing without him.

[MaxB]

What's common to all Marxist societies (past and present)?
THEY DENY GOD.
But there's a price to pay for that: THERE'S NOT ONE---NOT ONE---"atheist-Marxist" country that has prospered.
All of them have been dismal failures---the former USSR, Red China, N. Korea, Cuba, etc. Beleiving in God may or may not bring you prosperity, but beleiving in Marx and Lenin will surely bring you misery. Say what they will, the Marxists resent Capitalism, mixed-economies, and Western style democracy because they can't achieve what these societies have achieved. They ENVY us and this is the bottom line. We're not perfect, but at least, we acknowledge our imperfections. The Left, on the other hand, can make no mistakes---at least that's what they think !!! It's hard to phanthom that any intelligent-rational being would still follow that failed ideology: Marxism. I've arrived at the conclusion that most of those "Leftists" here are young and inexperienced. And those that are not young and follow that ridiculous doctrine (Marxism), are retards. There's no othe rational or logical explanation. Most "Marxists" are people that are desperate (some with reason), and out of ignorance, look for solutions in places where they shouldn't be looking. The rest of the Marxists are arrogant, advantage-takers, dictators who take advantage of the naive and ignorant. In general, a Marxist isn't worth a piss on the bowl.
GOD IS KING.

[Moskitto]

And those that are not young and follow that ridiculous doctrine (Marxism), are retards.

And Albert Einstein was a retard, right?
maybe if your a nazi, not if your a human being though,

and the Sandinistas were catholics,

[Panamarisen]

Sorry, MaxB, but guess you are just provoking ANOTHER discussion...

You, as an intelligent being as you must be, should understand that "God", Chirst, Buda or whoever, wouldn´t, AT ALL, support or agree with lack of justice among human beings. And you know, for sure, capitalism is the best way to achieve lack of justice, you know capitalism makes cannibalism a "legal" way of life, because capitalism supports your well-being over the suffering of too many other human beings, no matter if they are children, elders, or poor people in general...

So, sorry, but, as always,
HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[new democracy]

MaxB, thanks you very much. LeninCCCP argued that you are just some crazy religious zealot, now all of us know he is right. once you pissed me of with your copy and paste articles. now i feel sad for you. and Cuba is not anti religious anymore: http://www.cubasolidarity.com/ . go to the FAQ questions and look at the truth.

[Hayduke]

MaxB, from your post I guess you are christian.

Could you please provide me ( and dont paste an article this time, just your opnion. I know how hard it is for you ) an answer to the following question.

What has God done for you ?

[guerrillaradio]

Many leftists are also Christian (I'm not). They claim that Jesus was the first socialist, "proved" by the feeding of the 5,000, the constant anti-rich rhetoric etc etc. Personally, I don't follow this line of thought at all, but I know many who do.

[Panamarisen]

Quote: from guerrillaradio on 10:35 pm on Dec. 23, 2002
Many leftists are also Christian (I'm not). They claim that Jesus was the first socialist, "proved" by the feeding of the 5,000, the constant anti-rich rhetoric etc etc. Personally, I don't follow this line of thought at all, but I know many who do.


Jesus wasn´t the first socialist, at all. But he was a real revolutionary for sure, and, indeed, a very tough and brave one, as you can verify by knowing about his life.
And it has nothing to do with religious statements...

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[El Che]

What is "God"?

[Beccie]

MaxB, do you know anything about GOD? I am a left-winged Christian who happens to agree with the many of the Marxist theories. It is a complete contradiction to be right winged and believe in GOD; the GOD you believe in does not exist. The evangelists have portrayed Jesus as a Socialist and they depicted true followers of Jesus as people who care for those who are less fortunate then themselves. It can also be found in the bible that GOD strongly opposes the rich and can only be found with the poor and broken hearted. Nothing Godly can be found in the evil Capitalist system.

You cannot follow God and be a lover of money (that can also be found in the bible)

[Comrade Daniel]

Great story Commie01,
Capitalism is wrong and I think god knows it, he din't liked (only) rich people as far as I heard an primary school. So MaxB fuck off, I guess you don't know what to say anymore!? ;)

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

God. What's"God". The thing has been seen by one guy who was talking to a burning bush. The people explain people like that insane. So how do you know that the guy wasn't insane? How do you know that the bible is reliable? It could even be that someone wrote it as a fairytale but then some moron started to believe it.

[Corvus Corax]

MaxB, you seem to make a hobby out of stating your opinions as fact. So you think Cuba was a failure, although it is the most advanced country in Latin America. Hmmm, please don't mix your biased opinions with fact. Oh, and get off your high horse for a moment and realise that not every single being in the world has to envy you!

Oh, and people in glass houses...

C.C

[Moskitto]

why is it that the only bible story people remember is the burning bush?
it's not the only time people in the bible have "talked" to god, there's the prophets, jesus, noah, abraham,
yeah sure they could have been nuts, but saying they were nuts and also showing a lack of biblical knowledge doesn't look too good for your cause,

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Thanks, altough I have been on a Christian school I don't know much of it.

[Hayduke]

Why even bother to argument comrades,

Its easy to place article, after article and sometimes an opnion and afterwards never getting back on it.

MAXB, you are a defenseless little coward, running away from confrontation with us. If you are not willing to come back on your articles, then you nothing more then a stupid spammer.

Copy paste loser.

[Guest]

My favorite Bible Verse-

"23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Mathew 19:23-24

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Guest on 7:30 pm on Dec. 24, 2002
"23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Mathew 19:23-24

Kinda proves my point...

[redstar2000]

The verse quoted by Guest contains, at least in the opinion of Biblical scholars, a copyist's error.

It seems that the Greek word for "camel" and the Greek word for "rope" differ by a single letter.

So the verse originally read, in all probability: "it is easier for a ROPE to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God."

What is quite amusing to me is the use that the Church made of that mistake.

It was pretended that there was once a gate in the walls of Jerusalem--called the "Needle's Eye"--that was so narrow that a fully-loaded camel could not pass through...only if some of the camel's load was removed, could the camel pass. "Thus", if a rich man wishes to enter the Kingdom of God, he must first "lighten his load" by giving a big chunk of his wealth to...the Church! :cheesy:

More seriously, I know that there are christians who are "in favor" of socialism and even communism. What is much harder for me to understand are people who say they are christians and also say they are marxists. This doesn't make sense to me because those are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ways to look at the world. It's like saying that one is an astrologer and one is ALSO an astronomer, or one is an alchemist and ALSO a chemist.

I know that humans have a tremendous capacity for "partitioning" their minds in the same way you partition a hard drive. Christianity in this compartment; Marxism in that other compartment. But I do NOT think that is "a good thing".

I would MUCH rather see people discard supernatural superstitions of ALL varieties; one reason I'm always posting on this subject at che-lives is to encourage people to do that.

"It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it."

:cool:

[Moskitto]

the eye of the needle is real though, it still exists, when my brother went to jerusalem they visited it, but they were told the idea wasn't giving a huge chunk to the church, just humble oneself,

[redstar2000]

Moskitto, the "Needle's Eye Gate" is "real" in the same sense that the Church of the Nativity is "really" built above Christ's birthplace.

All those "biblical" places that tour-guides point out date from the 4th or 5th century at the earliest...there's no CONTEMPORARY evidence that there was ever a Gate called "Needle's Eye."

Tour-guide "history" and real history are VERY different.

:cool:

[Umoja]

Redstar, I was the guest posting, I was to lazy to log on. You can tear apart the statement, but it's like tearing up some of Marx's statements.

Now, I am not a Communist, I need to stress that. I'm a Democratic Socialist, and I don't see much of a need in ever becoming a Communist, because.... well you seem a little to radical and your icon gives me nightmares.

[Beccie]

Quote: from CCCP on 12:33 pm on Dec. 24, 2002
God. What's"God". The thing has been seen by one guy who was talking to a burning bush. The people explain people like that insane. So how do you know that the guy wasn't insane? How do you know that the bible is reliable? It could even be that someone wrote it as a fairytale but then some moron started to believe it.


The bible was not written in one day, it was written over a long period of time by different people with different beliefs, for a different purpose/audience. Many of the stories of the OT are fictional stories that were written to help Jewish people understand creation and their beliefs. When you talk about the bible you have to remember that it was written at a particular time period that had its own mindset.

No one really knows who Jesus really was (historically) but something major must have happened for so many people to attempt to record the events surrounding the life of this man. The four evangelists (Matt, Mark, Luke, John) had there own particular perceptions of Jesus, they wrote according to their own theological concerns for a particular audience of people hence the many contradictions between the gospels. There are passages that are similar to all four gospels that have been considered to be historical i.e. the crucifixion of Jesus. The first gospel (most likely mark) was written about 20-30 yrs after Jesus' death so it is very likely that it would not be historically accurate.

There is to much evidence to claim that the bible could have been written by one person who made everything up.

I was thinking about this issue a little more today and I remembered some of my favorite biblical quotes that should put Max B in his place:

"Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation" (Luke 6:24)

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 5:20) In the days of Jesus Pharisees claimed to be one with God. They were extremely religious, they were men of high status, wealth and power.

"So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God" (Luke 12:21)

This is how the first Christians perceived God. Is your God anything like this Max? How do you perceive God to be?

[Panamarisen]

Maybe most of you people have heard about Latin America´s "Teologia de la Liberacion" (Theology of Liberation).
Personally I think it´s a very wise and necessary way of practicing religion among Christians who are left-winged at the same time. We have to keep in mind that their teachings are addressed specially to the oppressed and the poor that are mostly Christians already.
The Theology is far away from Roma´s Catholic Church. It´s very critical and open-minded. Indeed, its priests learn and apply the interpretations and understandings peasants make about Jesus words, for instance. They celebrate very peculiar masses, after which everybody gathered in the "temple" make a forum where, if you want, you can smoke while sitting on the floor, etc.
Even more, their ideology has a lot of standings that are definitely Marxists in methods, goals, and way of looking at reality. At least that´s what I understand, so far.
Ernesto Cardenal, one of the priests of this Church of the Poor, was one of the principal individuals that made the Sandinistas Revolution in Nicaragua become a success, way back in 1979.


Here are some links to the subject (although in Spanish)

www.libreriahispana.com/cardenal/

www.servicioskoinonia.net/relat/278.htm

www.servicioskoinonia.net/relat/300.htm

www.spie.pangea.org/csor/documentos/SEPTIEMB.htm

www.pangea.org/spie/agenda-latino/koinonia/relat/63.htm

www.revistafusion.com/2001/marzo/temac90.htm


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[redstar2000]

I don't think I will shock anybody when I say that "Liberation Theology" is a FAKE. But keeping in mind the admonition of certain folks that I should have a more "open mind", here are some questions that I would expect "Liberation Theologists" to be able to answer:

1. What is the LT position on abortion?

2. What is the LT position on sex outside of marriage?

3. What is the LT position on homosexuality

4. What is the LT position on the doctrine of papal supremacy?

5. What is the LT position on the ordination of women as priests?

It would be foolish to deny that there has always been a kind of underground anti-elitist current in many religious movements...and occasionally it emerges (briefly) into the light. Once I heard a sermon preached in a union hall in Eastern Kentucky; the preacher assured the strikers that "the mineowners are going to BURN IN HELL!" (Amen, brother, amen!) I know it's "cynical" of me, but I do suspect that he KNEW where his contributions were going to come from...and tailored his message accordingly.

Sympathy for the oppressed is better than hatred and contempt for the oppressed...but it is NOT sufficient for "liberation" to take place THIS side of "heaven". A fresh coat of paint on the vehicle of christianity does not make a moon rocket out of an ox cart.

:cool:

[Panamarisen]

Interesting post, redstar. Let´s discuss it a little:

Although I´m not a Liberation Theologist myself, I surely appreciate their FIGHT against the oppressors. I mean, you can be sure they are no fake at all. Indeed, some of them have been killed defending the oppressed. They frontally condemn and confront Vatican and the Power in general. They stand clearly with a Revolutionary compromise, antiimperialism, and a Marxist analysis of reality in a number of points.

Not being a Liberation Theologist myself, as I just said, I´m not able to answer to your questions (indeed, I would like to know it, too!)... What I can say is that woman got a preeminent position in their structure and consideration, and it seems it keeps growing in this direction.

The Kentucky preacher you quoted, and your statement about "a fresh coat of paint on the vehicle of christianity..." guess have nothing to do with LT, fortunately , for once. I think they are doing much more than just sympathising with the oppressed. And this is maybe why I started trying to know more about them since some time ago. If they were a bunch of ignorant, dogmatic and/or hypocrital people, I wouldn´t care for them at all. I think, even more, that they mean a very important movement in Latin America due to the large number of people there that are Christian practicants. It makes them understand they can be Christians and, at the same time be able to change things for better (of course, through Romans church this is impossible).

They are not a Marxist party, but they use Marxist ideology; they don´t live for politics, but live a life of real leftist political militants, with a very strong militance spirit.


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 1:41 pm on Dec. 25, 2002
:cool:

Anyone else noticed how RS2000's posts always end with that?? No...OK, carry on then lol.

[redstar2000]

:cool: I do rather LIKE that one! :cool:

[redstar2000]

"Liberation theology makes people understand that they can be christians and still change things for the better."

But, Panamarisen, THAT is what is at question.

If I, as a communist, assert that you MUST give up your hopes for the "next world" in order to have any real hopes in THIS world...that is, at least, LOGICAL.

What the LTers appear to assert is that you can "have it all"--liberation in this world and salvation in the "next". But if you're going to spend "eternity" in "heaven", what DIFFERENCE does a little suffering on earth make? HOW serious can LTers be about "liberation" when they "KNOW" that regardless of the outcome of the earthly struggle, they're going to "heaven"?

You know, Panamarisen, this has ALL happened before. In France in the 1920s and 1930s, there was a "worker priest" movement with much the same motivations as "liberation theology"...a catholic alternative to communism. I believe to this day, one of the small trade union confederations is still catholic in sympathy there.

But the Catholic Church has always been clever about "working both sides of the street". While the "worker priests" were promising a better deal to French Catholic workers, there was also a Catholic political party for the upper classes that was essentially a clerical-fascist party and provided many of the functionaries for the infamous Vichy regime.

And so it is, I'm GUESSING, in Central and South America. While the "liberation theology" priests are promising a better deal for the poor, the clerical-fascist Opus Dei is probably working behind the scenes to make sure the elite stays in power. In fact, now that I think about it, it would not surprise me at all to learn that the hand of Opus Dei is to be found behind some of the recent anti-Chavez activities in Venezuela...it's THEIR kind of thing.

However, if your research turns up any answers to the questions in my earlier post, I'd like to hear them.

:cool:

[Umoja]

If you can put yourself into heaven, then what else can't you do? If a person has the power to choose eternal life, what is stopping them from changing their status on Earth? Yes, Christianity says be humble, and turn the other cheek, but it also says faith without good works isn't faith at all (and good work alone won't save you). So good works, can include bettering everyone, since the last time I checked it was good to help people.

[redstar2000]

Actually, Umoja, I WONDER about the role of "good works" in christian thought.

If the "Gospel of John" is to be believed, ALL that is necessary to get into heaven is to believe in Jesus as Lord--John 3:16: "He that believeth in me shall not die but shall have everlasting life."

So, you can SIN your butt off and still get in through the pearly gates. But then what?

If you do "good works" on earth, do you get status points in "heaven"? Is "heaven" sort of like earth, with a class system? Last-minute repentent sinners at the bottom, saints on top? Is "Mother Theresa" at this very moment enjoying a penthouse suite at the St. Mark Hotel while some barely catholic Irish drunk is washing her windows?

And, after you die, when the church makes you a saint, do you move into better living quarters? Get to have your own limo? Girlfriends???

If you do "good works" on earth, do you get to hang out with angels a lot? And what DO angels talk about, anyway?

If you do "good works" on earth, do other people in heaven want your autograph or try to get you to have your picture taken with them?

I ask because, as you know, I'm headed in the other direction, myself. :cheesy:

(Edited by redstar2000 at 5:49 pm on Dec. 26, 2002)

[Umoja]

I've struggled with the logic of that Redstar, so here is what I, and probubly only I, think. Belief is Faith, and Faith without good works, isn't faith at all, and Good works aren't something a person should take credit for since they won't get you into heaven. So, it basically means that if you have "faith" then you will do good works as part of your "faith" and if you have "faith" you will avoid sinning in the first place, otherwise your "faith" isn't real "faith".

It's sorta like a web-diagram. In the center is "faith". Faith is divided into different things, one of them is "getting" to heaven, and "getting" to heaven isn't connected with good works, or not sinning, but if you have "faith" these things will also come.

Does that make sense?

[Panamarisen]

redstar, I think you are putting in the same bag LT and Catholicism/Opus Dei, as if both of them try to manipulate people making them believe they should only care for heaven. Catholicism and the extreme fundamentalists Opus Dei for sure do, while at the same time keeping the money and the power. But LT has nothing to do with it.
LT actually works AGAINST the power, and not to get the power themselves. They fight for the poor, to give them back their dignity and to change their lives for better ON EARTH (same thing Subcomandante Marcos is doing, btw, only without the religious background). LT doesn´t teach the oppressed to conform theirselves with a miserable life, but, at the contrary, to FIGHT for a better one.

I´m not religious at all myself, redstar, but I try not to close possible sources of knowledge, no matter where they come from, if they are going to make me grow as an individual in this society. Christianity is not bad in itself, specially if we talk about the very first Christians: it got nothing to do with today´s manipulation of Christ´s teachings. And remember Christ himself wasn´t an idiot at all, he wasn´t a sheep being glad to be harmed. At the contrary, he was a brave individual, and in my opinion, one of the best and toughest REVOLUTIONARIES ever ("Fight the Power" could very well be his signature!). Christ has NOTHING to do with what Catholic Church has always wanted us to believe.

And let´s not forget the LT priest Ernesto Cardenal, as I said in a previous post: his struggle was essential for the success of the Sandinist Revolution..., and he risked his life a lot of times just to make the oppressed reach to a quite different and better living.


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Panamarisen]

Forgot to say that I haven´t found anything yet about what you asked me, redstar. I´m willing to know the answers, too. Hope somebody brings the info.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[redstar2000]

"Does that make sense"--Umoja. Um, well, actually, no. UNLESS, all those pious folks who enter monastaries and nunneries--the ones who totally retreat from "the world"--and do no "good works" are destined to BURN IN HELL. ;)

-----------------------------------

Panamarisen, I'm NOT suggesting that LT & Opus Dei are together CONSPIRING to maintain the prevailing social order.

I'm saying that from the VATICAN's point of view, it is USEFUL to "have a foot in both camps".

If there is wide-spread revolution in South America, the Vatican would NEED a catholic "left" with credibility or else the revolutionaries might shut down Roman Catholicism altogether.

Opus Dei, in the other camp, cements the ties between the ruling elites and the church hierarchy, insuring that the church continues to have influence where it counts.

I'm sure the LT folks and Opus Dei utterly despise one another with complete sincerity...the Vatican takes a loftier view and sees the UTILITY of both.

Of course, the weight of the church is heavily tilted towards Opus Dei--clerical fascism has been the church favorite since the 1920s and they'd LOVE to impose it everywhere. But they are realists. If there is going to be a wave of left-wing populist governments in Central and South America, they want to be READY for that.

Thus the LT people have and will come in for plenty of harassment from the church hierarchy...but they WON'T be excommunicated.

:cool:

[Panamarisen]

I don´t think, even strategically, that the main existence of LT is a good thing for the Vatican: LT questions almost every statement the Vatican does, and with a too clever point of view and ways of reasoning. And Vatican knows it. Indeed, Vatican fears them because of it. The whole Vatican building of believings -based on lies and selfishness, based on lack of justice, based on greed and fear-, may fall down any of these days because of the strenght of the critical mind and the true care for those less "fortunate" that the LT promotes. And Vatican knows it very well.
Besides, revolutionaries still need a much greater power in Latin America as to overcome the actual power Catholic Church got today. Don´t forget TOO MANY people over there are Catholic practicant people. They need first to open their eyes about what´s really going on...
Usually, as soon as peasants in those countries meet LT, they follow it, and absolutely not because they could be considered as "ignorant" people, but, at the contrary, because, they´re much more wiser than what the stupid Vatican corpse believes.


HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[Umoja]

I didn't get what you meant Redstar, but Christmas current state reflects Christianity. So, really all your examples of corruption are true, but just because people who live in a house are bad doesn't make the house itself bad.

[redstar2000]

"...just because people who live in a house are bad doesn't make the house itself bad."

Umoja, I KNOW you believers will STRETCH for ANY analogy you can find, but this is absurd. A house is an inanimate object--even in your theology, it has no "soul" and is therefore incapable of being "good" or "bad".

----------------------------------

Panamarisen, if relations between LTers and the Vatican are REALLY as bad as you suggest they are, then WHY haven't the LTers SPLIT OFF and started a "People's Catholic Church"? Nothing is easier in religion than splitting off from an existing one and starting a new one ("Jesus" was a reforming jewish rabbi...and NOT a "christian" at all).

The overall problem of religion in Central and South America is a REAL one; building a movement for real change there is "easier" if one does NOT challenge religion. Hugo Chavez KNOWS that; he was on television kissing a plastic jesus while trashing his opponents.

Is the "easy" road the right one to take? I don't think it is...for a number of reasons. But it's a legitimately debatable question. :cool:

[Umoja]

Hmmm.... I like that. Since that House doesn't have a Soul, it can never do any wrong.... I need to find something that relates to (not necessarilly religiously). Sorry about the analogy Redstar, I've come to the habit of using them often.