Right or Wrong - Human Progress

[Umoja]

Something odd occured to me today. If humans are animals, we are therefore natural, in everything we do, and since we are programmed by nature (God?) then we can do no wrong. Destroying of the enviorment is as natural as actual conservation since all of our thoughts and actions are natural, as we are natural beings.

Now, this led me to think about Socialism... Capitalism and the like. None of them are right or wrong, since all the ideas were created by humanity. So Capitalism isn't the ultimate good nor is Socialism. I can't really think of how to properly express my thoughts beyond this, I'll try to make them more coherent. Anyone understand what I mean?

[canikickit]

I agree. But I still think one is better than the other, I don't accept nature, or God's idea of civilisation, fuck them both.

(Edited by canikickit at 10:24 pm on Dec. 22, 2002)

[El Che]

Yea, sort of... (I think)

You posit "natural" and opposed to "wrong" as in unethical, imoral or amoral. I think this stems from the fact that it is difficult to conceive of imoral behavior in animals. They do what they do because it is their nature, it is nither good nore bad. So from then you jump to: We are natural too therefore we act according our amoral nature. If what we deem evil is a part of our nature and our nature is amoral then it can`t be evil...

Interesting idea, though I guess that depends of one`s view of good and evil. I`d be interested in what people who consider good and evil universal truths think of it. Btw, what are your views on right and wrong?

[canikickit]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=13&topic=486 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=486)

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/upload/The_meaning_of_life.gif

Life is bullshit.

[Umoja]

Under my philosophy the only way we actually have a moral system is from the government or from an institution like a religion. Our modern ethics have evolved from an amalgam of the two, and I would say that our currents Ethics are the desireable ones, and will be changed less and less as we move towards an impossible state of Utopia. To me Utopia is like an undefined slope of a vertical line. You can get closer and closer to a vertical line the steeper the slope is, but no number will ever make it perfectly vertical.

[canikickit]

Under my philosophy the only way we actually have a moral system is from the government or from an institution like a religion.

So people can't think for themselves in your world? Strange, I'm in favour of making my own desicions. I have no problem with sheep, but I am in favour of shooting cows (and other sources of food such as sheep) in the head.

[Tkinter1]

We are the same being as the animal, but not the same mind. Our minds are at such a different state than animals that it is wrong to refer to ourselves as them.

There are two minds that exist in my opinion. The thinking mind, and the instinctual. For animals the instinctual mind dominates. For humans the thinking mind. Now this doesn't quite add up. Why would nature intend to throw one species of animal off balance with the rest? Maybe not nature though. Maybe it was God who tinkered with nature to make man.

It was said that God made man in the image of himself. If that is true, then we are a part of both the natural, and the supernatural worlds. We are the median between the two. We have the power that god has to dominate the natural world, but we are also bound to it(we feel natural pain, we have instincts, and we die). In nature, there is no comprehension of good or evil. But in our state of half supernaturality, we can comprehend what is good and evil. In the supernatural realm it would seem that there is a true good and evil. True good and evil partially elude us because our vision is clouded by the natural realm. Our progression away from the natural world(or animal world) which we are currently doing will further widen the gap between us being animals, and supernatural beings. And the gaps between our religions will slowly combine, and form one ultimate knowledge.

The imperfections in nature are what create the diversity between man. at the core of our supernatural selves we are equal. The current enlightened mind can recognize this. Most of our profound thinkers have been Socialists. Not requiring material things is essential to moving towards the fuller state of supernaturality. This doesn't make Capitalism the incorrect system however. Just a less evolved system currently more appropriate for the state of mind that the human race is in. As our current systems and ideals combine(which they are, in the grand scheme of things)they will ultimately render a system of near equality and assumed perfection.

We evolve at an astronomical rate intellectually, but at a much slower pace do we naturally. It would seem that the human struggle is much more than survival. It is the struggle to achieve ultimate knowledge. It is the struggle for our supernatural selves to conquer our natural bindings.

It's a little off base from the rest of the topic, but I feel it plays in somewhat with everything else.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Umoja, I understand perfectly what you are saying and you need to remove yourselfe from this mindset. Animals act upon their insticts, we do not, we have complex thoughts and emotions. We have come a long way in human development, we cannot simply say that whatever we do will be the natuarl course of nature. If their is some force, we need to grow independent from it. The key is to to make our society better without having a goal, for we have no perfect understanding of what the reason for our existence is. We must make it most convinient for what our instincts call for, i.e.- reproduction, survival, leisure, technological proggress, etc...

[El Che]

I don`t, unfortunatly, share Tkinter1`s veiws (because I can`t) but it`s a point of view on the subject... He answers all your questions.

You just have to find out what you believe, based on your methodology and system of beliefs. Just remember that to admit ignorance is also an option, one that does you no disservice.

[Umoja]

But everything we do IS natural because when did it ever become unatural?

[Tkinter1]

God is not nature. Spiritual beings are not of nature. Being unatural is being not of nature. Some things are inherently unatural.



(Edited by Tkinter1 at 4:56 am on Dec. 23, 2002)