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MaxB
21st December 2002, 20:39
"If another economic system is going to follow, it must at least provide the level of prosperity and wealth of the system it is replacing. Otherwise, it fails immediately. So the challenge to the Socialist must be how to maintain the level of wealth creation of Capitalism while ensuring economic equality. No Socialist has ever satisfactorily addressed that problem. "

Why Socialism Fails
Socialism is immoral and contrary to human nature. The only way that one can believe in the efficacy of Socialism is to:

(1) Not believe in private property; and
(2) Believe that human nature is malleable.
The abolition of the concept of private property must be achieved in order to justify the confiscation of property for distribution. To have a system of redistribution while recognizing "private property" is theft and hence immoral. Such immorality causes rot from within and eventually the collapse of the entire system.

Human nature must be malleable because Socialism requires that the sustenance of life be provided in the absence of incentives. Socialism trades in the merit system and exchanges it for security and equality. However, since the greatest advances of mankind’s standard of living have come about through the motivation provided by a system of reward commensurate with effort, human nature will have to be changed in order to derive a new means for motivating people.

A Socialist never justifies why "equality" should be the desired end of human existence. They deride the merit and reward components of Capitalism but never explain why they are to be considered a lesser good to be pursued than "equality." Furthermore, a Socialist never defines exactly what is meant by "equality" so it becomes an open-ended pursuit of an undefined goal.

Another thing Socialism utterly fails to justify is why it should be believed that human nature is malleable. This is a critical question because if human nature is immutable, then what drives and motivates human beings is also unchangeable. In which case, discarding the Capitalist system that relies on the merit/reward system is an exercise in futility.

But even if we are to assume (and we shouldn't) that human nature can be molded and shaped to be sensitive to appeals to community, altruism, and equality, Socialists never explains what the new motivation would be or how it would look or how it would be learned and applied. As with their definition of "equality," the Socialist leaves the inquiring mind hanging as to the precise meaning of "The New Motivation of the New Man."

Capitalism answers all of these questions by the accumulated wisdom of the ages. Capitalism did not arise in one generation. Through trial and error, the human race has tried various constructs for the social and economic order. Some have worked better than others have and all were based on different concepts of human nature.

Capitalism settled on the realization that human nature is not malleable and human beings are motivated by innate concepts of effort, reward, and punishment. Men inherently respond to reward and punishment the way a baby responds to pleasure and pain. The reason Capitalism has great potential for generating wealth is because it operates within this concept of human nature.

It is true that Capitalism produces inequality. If one is compensated and rewarded commensurate with one’s effort, it stands to reason that different levels of effort will produce different level of rewards. And since humans have, throughout the ages, shown that every man is unique and productive in different forms and capacities, it must necessarily be true that a merit/reward system will create disparity in economic conditions.

But what is the alternative? Is it possible to have another economic system that generates the wealth and prosperity that Capitalism does and that simultaneously maintains equality in economic conditions? Socialists may not like Capitalism because they despise the disparity in equality that results, but they have to at least admit that Capitalism has elevated man’s standard of living many hundreds of times since before it was applied.

If another economic system is going to follow, it must at least provide the level of prosperity and wealth of the system it is replacing. Otherwise, it fails immediately. So the challenge to the Socialist must be how to maintain the level of wealth creation of Capitalism while ensuring economic equality. No Socialist has ever satisfactorily addressed that problem.

I say "satisfactorily" because those that have attempted to address the problem always rely on the assumption that human nature is malleable and can be modified so that the source of man’s motivation arises not from merit and reward but from a sense of community and altruism. That human nature has not significantly wavered throughout history does not deter the Socialist from believing human beings can learn new ways of motivation.

Also, the fact that no culture or society has ever successfully taught man to be motivated by a sense of community and altruism and simultaneously produce the incremental increase in standard of living that Capitalism has, does not seem to deter the Socialist from believing in the realizability of the egalitarian dream.

It must therefore be a tenet of faith to the Socialist that:


Human nature is malleable. People’s purposes and motivations can be learned and unlearned (e.g. soviet re-education camps).
Humans do not have to operate according to the merit/reward system that Capitalism utilizes so successfully.
Humans can be motivated by senses of community and altruism that will promote effort commensurate with ability and talent (not reward).
Levels of wealth creation (prosperity) comparable to Capitalism can be achieved without using a system of merit/reward/profit/loss.
Humans can experience equality of economic conditions and still produce different levels of effort that is proportional to ability.
Some of these tenets require substantial leaps of faith to believe. This is why many Socialists are so fervent and zealous in trying to realize their ideals. An article of religious faith is perhaps the greatest means of driving people towards an end. Adolph Hitler understood this well, as did Lenin and Marx.

But it is difficult to argue with success. According to Socialism, Capitalism is halfway there by giving human beings a wonderful standard of living. But the Socialist suggests, as an article of faith, that we can go all the way. But many are rightfully skeptical because they are not convinced of at least one of the tenets of faith that the Socialist believes in.

Doubts and questions arise, such as:


Is human nature really changeable?
Can people’s motivations really be learned and unlearned?
Can people really produce according to their ability without a reward proportional to their production effort?
Can humans be motivated by a sense of community and altruism that will promote a level of effort commensurate with ability and talent?
Can a system that does not reward according to effort really produce the levels of wealth and prosperity that Capitalism has?
Is an equality of reward conducive to producing different levels of effort commensurate with one’s ability and talent?
These are excellent questions and ones that Socialism doesn’t answer. Furthermore, the Socialist has no practical model to point to. It is all a theory, an ideal, and an article of faith. And we are asked to dispense with our current form of economics in order to try this theory. I think most will understand if intelligent people choose to maintain the status-quo economic arrangement.

The Socialist will say that it is unfair to use the absence of a practical arrangement as reason to reject it. After all, it must be tried in order to see if it is practical in reality. However, I submit that Socialism has been tried … repeatedly throughout the 20th century. And it has always failed. Furthermore, Socialism assumes so much and departs so substantially from what we know does work that its practicality is highly doubtful in any case.

BOZG
21st December 2002, 20:46
Wow Max, you're the first person that's made me realise that socialism is evil. You've made me see the light, I'm now converted to the capitalist ways.

Will you ever realise that we listen and read this shit every single day and it is not going to change anyone's beliefs. Get over it and stop wasting both your time and our time.

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
21st December 2002, 20:50
Wow his version of "Mein Kampf", first one against muslims and now socialism. You know Hitler had family problems, like you?

MaxB
21st December 2002, 21:10
That's why you Fascist Left Wingers are always wanting and we (Cappies) are the "haves". You envy us---IT'S CALLED ENVY, COMRADE. And the only reson you don't have WHAT YOU DESIRE is because of your ineptitude, arrogance, and lack of understanding. Utopia---HAHAHA

BOZG
21st December 2002, 21:39
1) How can you call an anarchist a fascist?
2) What do you define by "haves"? I doubt any of the right-wing here are millionaires. Chances are they're all middle class and I'm sure you'll find that some of the leftists here are middle class. So your theory on us being envious doesn't work.
3) I don't believe in a utopia.

HankMorgan
21st December 2002, 21:53
Right on MaxB.

BornOfZapatasGuns, how is it you hear and see what is true everyday and yet carry on with mistaken ideas?

I admire your tenacity but question your intelligence.

Capitalist Imperial
21st December 2002, 22:14
HankMorgan, I like your signature.

Clear, concise, and Universaly true

abstractmentality
21st December 2002, 22:22
MaxB:
this entire paper is based completly on the one premise of what human nature is. it then goes on to tell about how this human nature can not be changed, etc. but, if the initial talking about what human nature is can be found to be faulted, then the entire paper is illegitimate, as taught in any intro to logic class. now, onto making your entire argument illegitimate...

human nature is an abstract thought, and can NOT be defined by anything. the fact of the matter is that science does NOT have an explanation for anything close to human nature. science has all of these nifty equations about red shifts of light and forces on an object, but the fact of the matter is that when science attempts to explin things like human nature, it cant. it is an unexplainable concept, thus, we can not place this abstract thought as a concrete realization. hence, your entire argument no longer exist.

sorry, maybe next time max.

El Che
21st December 2002, 22:22
CI is now on record qualifying a direct indictment against Capitalism as "Clear, concise and Universaly ture".

Capitalist Imperial
21st December 2002, 22:24
Quote: from El Che on 10:22 pm on Dec. 21, 2002
CI is now on record qualifying a direct indictment against Capitalism as "Clear, concise and Universaly ture".

El che, those comments are an indictment against socialism, and advocation of capitalism. Go read them again.

HankMorgan
21st December 2002, 22:25
BornOfZapatasGuns, I more than admire your tenacity. I get great entertainment reading the wacked out schemes posted on che-lives. Long may it prosper. In addition to the entertainment, I read to possibly find a workable idea to ending poverty.

My goal isn't to beat up on hapless socialists but to maybe find a better way.


(Edited by HankMorgan at 2:49 am on Dec. 22, 2002)

Non-Sectarian Bastard!
21st December 2002, 22:27
Quote: from MaxB on 9:10 pm on Dec. 21, 2002
That's why you Fascist Left Wingers are always wanting and we (Cappies) are the "haves". You envy us---IT'S CALLED ENVY, COMRADE. And the only reson you don't have WHAT YOU DESIRE is because of your ineptitude, arrogance, and lack of understanding. Utopia---HAHAHA


HaHa! Arrogance?! Your whole system is based on the thinking that who comes first, eats first. Does the first person share in ur system? Do the others die of hunger because he doesn't share? Does the first one die of fattness?

While you will die on your fattass, millions of others will die of hunger? Is this arrogant enough.


(Edited by CCCP at 10:29 pm on Dec. 21, 2002)

BOZG
21st December 2002, 22:27
I see only lies and bullshit everyday. As for your signature.

1 - There are two human instincts - To survive and to reproduce. Neither of these require you to thirst for more power and money. It is not a case of survival of the fittest because we can all survive equally
2 - I don't know what you mean by that
3 - That's been the exact point of socialism. Why should some rich businessman who sits around doing nothing be entitled to the product which the worker makes? You cannot say because he provides the materials for the worker to actually work because those materials were created by another worker.

BOZG
21st December 2002, 22:29
As for admiring my tenacity, well I'm a stubborn bastard :biggrin:

El Che
21st December 2002, 22:40
Your ignorance is shocking.

Point 1 is a subjective, or at least difficult to prove, consideration. But lets all agree that "smart people" act "in their own interests". That in its self says nothing. it`s not an argument of any sort.


Point 2 does not interest us and is irrelevant to the poin in question.

Point 3 denies rights inherent to Capitalism. Denies the right upon which Capitalism is predicated on, the right to profit from another man`s labor. Without said right there can be no Capitalist economy.

Capitalist Imperial
21st December 2002, 23:18
It is your lack of reading comprehension that is shocking.

It is in communism where one man profits from anothers labor. As it is a fact that not everyone's output is equal, but in communism everyone's income is.

Therefore, one man enjoys the fruits of anothers labor.

Shall I go slower for you?

BOZG
22nd December 2002, 00:29
And what exactly is the output of a man playing the stock exchange?

HankMorgan
22nd December 2002, 06:47
Thanks, Capitalist Imperial, for carrying the ball for me.

Two points on the stock market.

First, it is a way to literally own the means of production. That means everything from voting on the future course of a company to sharing in its profits. Even a person of very modest means can own Foster's Brewing or IBM or General Electric and receive a share of their profits. All with the freedom to choose which means of production to own.

Second, and I think more importantly, the stock market is a clearing house for new ideas. It's a place where a new idea can find the money to become a living, growing means of production employing thousands, creating goods and services and throwing off tax revenue.

What is the output of a man playing the stock exchange? He is rewarding good ideas, punishing bad ideas and maybe, just maybe breathing life into the blessed means of production.

El Che
22nd December 2002, 19:30
2 things to highlight here.

Firstly notice how CI doesn`t even try to answer my, obviously embarrassing, point on the right to exploit. Lol Capitalism is the system of systematic, organised, generalised exploitation of man`s labor power and here you have CI talking all this rubbish. How dumb can one guy be?

Secondly:
"It is in communism where one man profits from anothers labor. As it is a fact that not everyone's output is equal, but in communism everyone's income is."

I simply do not know what you are talking about. What is this rubbish? Acorrding to who`s (I don`t even know what to call it...) futurological construction(?) is "everyone`s input unequal" and "everyone`s output equal"? Do you even know what you`re talking about? Can you quote some Marxist or Socialist theorists?
Finaly, and most importantly, what does any of that got to do with me? How the fuck is it related to point 3 and Capitalism?

"Shall I go slower for you?"

I don`t think you can go any slower.

Comrade Daniel
22nd December 2002, 20:38
Can't we say it in a few words?:
Capitalism is simply not fair.
You guys don't think about anyone, I hope soon al capitalits will really fight against eachother, for who has the most food, wealth. Biggest monopoly companies. maybe another cival war in the US because of Capitalism?!? Would be fun ;)

Moskitto
22nd December 2002, 21:01
like you're other post, you've allready posted this before,

gee, i really wish Malte had vB instead of Ikonboard, being able to ignore multiple copies of the same post is very useful,