From the Esteemed Che-lives News Room - Thought I would brin

[Stormin Norman]

Malte posted this in the 'News' section. I though I would initiate some debate over this subject. Your thoughts and comments are welcome. I will respond after the ball gets roling.

[b]USA intelligence agencies revealed in plot to oust Venezuela's President[/url]
report © by VHeadline.com Reporters

VHeadline.com : Thursday, December 12, 2002 -- Uruguayan EP-FA congressman Jose Bayardi says he has information that far-reaching plans have been put into operation by the CIA and other North American intelligence agencies to overthrow Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez Frias within the next 72 hours.

Bayardi says he has received copies of top-secret communications between the Bush administration in Washington and the government of Uruguay requesting the latter's cooperation to support white collar executives and trade union activists "to break down levels of intransigence within the Chavez Frias administration."

In an interview with reporters from the Uruguyan newspaper La Juventud, Bayardi says he observes a domestic-political situation in Venezuela which could easily erupt into a civil war and bloodbath ... "the whole process is a shocking reminder of what happened in Chile in 1973 ... I sincerely hope it does not come to that!"

Bayardi says he does not foresee any immediate foreign military intervention in the Venezuelan situation but warns of a possible escalation if the opposition gets the upper hand over constitutional law and order.

"The problem is that Venezuelan television and major newspapers have been hiding the true fact that there are huge popular uprisings in support of the Chavez Frias government ... now that Venezuelans are beginning to understand that they have been duped by the anti-government media, they are demanding that these information channels should begin to tell the truth!" (Thursday, December 12, 2002)

Vheadline.com (http://Vheadline.com)

[Sol]

This whole situation is FUBAR. The American media, both the mainstream (which is vehemently pro-Opposition) or the leftist media (pro-Chavez) are to be trusted. All they've done is point out the numbers in the marches and leave one-sided views on the motives of both sides.

I don't know Chavez, but the fact that he has the support of the poor says something. I don't know why the unions aren't supporting him if he is leftist (my thought is that they may be a bit like US unions) and it worries me that he's using riot police and whats left of the army to get policies through. And why is he afraid to hold elections?

I don't know how much stock can be placed in this one man's comments- did he release the documents? They were from who to who exactly? There's just too many questions left unanswered by both sides...

[Moskitto]

they said in Britain that the riot police were being used to keep pro and anti protestors apart,

i don't know exactly what's going on, but i wouldn't be surprised if the US was trying to get rid of him,

[guerrillaradio]

I'm sorry, but I can't think of a good word to say about Chavez. He's quite clearly unpopular, irrespective of American intervention, and appears to be going Stalinist in his desperation. I say he gets the fuck out before there's a bona fide coup d'etat.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Hugo Chavez needs to go. He is maintaining a centrist-government monopoly on venezuela's oil industry and other industries, against the peoples will, when privatizing the industry would be much better for venezuela and the world.

His anti-american sentiment is also untenable and hypocritical, considering that we are the #1 purchaser of his biggest export, oil.

He is a stalin-esque holdout in south america who needs to be dealt with immediately, and eradicated with extreme predudice.

Hopefully, the benevolent United States will again come to the world's rescue and uproot this vicious dictator before he does any more damage to the world's economy and US petroleum supplies.

[IHP]

"He's quite clearly unpopular"

I haven't read too much into this situation, but at a recent rally he had 3 million people showing support for him. I can't add any more. I'll do some reading and get back.

--IHP

(Edited by i hate pinochet at 12:17 am on Dec. 22, 2002)

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from i hate pinochet on 12:17 am on Dec. 22, 2002
"He's quite clearly unpopular"

I haven't read too much into this situation, but at a recent rally he had 3 million people showing support for him.

That is a naive statement to say the least. Firstly, could someone give me the Venezuelan population?? Secondly, how much choice do you reckon they had?? Mao, Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin both managed to hold hugely popular rallies.

[Stormin Norman]

I'm sorry, but I can't think of a good word to say about Chavez. He's quite clearly unpopular, irrespective of American intervention, and appears to be going Stalinist in his desperation. I say he gets the fuck out before there's a bona fide coup d'etat.

For once we agree.


i don't know exactly what's going on, but i wouldn't be surprised if the US was trying to get rid of him

As well we should. I think we ought to make an exception to the executive directive that prevents political assasination just for this guy.

[Som]

Hugo Chavez is quite a populist, He is still very popular still among the lower classes.

It seems to break along class lines, the middle upper classes, generally the people on strike, are very much against him, but his programs of land reform and cheap credit, plus his general appeal to the poor have won him the support of the lower classes.
In the april coup, his supporters in the army and otherwise launched huge demonstrations to return him to power.

There have been quite a few pro-chavez rallies easily matching those as large as the opposition ones.

It wasn't 3 million, but there was a rally where they claimed to have over a million, the opposition rallies have had similiar numbers.
Some of his supporters are rather extreme unfortunatly, and occasionally people on both sides have started violence, the opposition is quick to assign blame on chavez himself instead of the fairly extremist chavez supporters.

"Secondly, how much choice do you reckon they had?? Mao, Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin both managed to hold hugely popular rallies. "

Except that chavez is a democratically elected president in a free country. He is far from a dictator, most of the media is vehemtly anti-chavez and very biased against him, the reports on him are very one sided.
For example during the coup in april, while the news continually showed the opposition protestors being attacked, It never once bothered to mention that most that died in the violence that day were chavez supporters, and that there were shots fired on both sides.

"And why is he afraid to hold elections? "

He isn't, elections as soon as the opposition want them are unconsitutional. They want (or wanted) them in February, according the constitution a referendum can't be held till halfway through his term, which is in august.
I doubt American government would act against their consitution, we shouldn't expect him to.

"He is maintaining a centrist-government monopoly on venezuela's oil industry and other industries, against the peoples will, when privatizing the industry would be much better for venezuela and the world. "

I can't say for sure, but I don't think thats even on the table for these things. As the oil industry makes up half the governments income, I'd doubt any venezuelan government would privatize it anytime soon.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Som on 5:10 am on Dec. 22, 2002
Hugo Chavez is quite a populist, He is still very popular still among the lower classes.

Which would explain why there is currently a national strike in Venezuela...

My knowledge on Chavez is limited, but from what I do know, he seems to be unpopular and repressive. Some issues go beyond left and right-wing. Chavez is one of those.

[IHP]

"That is a naive statement to say the least. Firstly, could someone give me the Venezuelan population??

It's funny that you accuse me of naivete, then ask about the population. Fact is fact and conjecture is conjecture. The fact is, at leats over a million (i remember reading three million) people showed up and marched in support of Hugo Chavez. Anyway, the population is almost 24 million (23, 900, 000) or there abouts). How much choice? Don't you be naive. How can you compare Chavez to Stalin, That is a terrible comparison (to say the least). I dont really support Chavez, but your comparison is totally off base. Don't you accuse me of naivete. There is no fact in any of your statements, just your opinion.

Your comparison to Hitler is also very strange. Hitler was popular during his reign. So what is your argument here? I never referred to Chavez's policy, simply his popularity. Your comparison simply backs up my statement.

--IHP

[Anonymous]

i do not trust chavez, nor do i trust the imperial amerika, i only fear for the safety of the people of venezuela....

(Edited by the anarchist at 12:16 pm on Dec. 23, 2002)

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from i hate pinochet on 8:40 am on Dec. 23, 2002
How can you compare Chavez to Stalin, That is a terrible comparison (to say the least). I dont really support Chavez, but your comparison is totally off base. Don't you accuse me of naivete. There is no fact in any of your statements, just your opinion.

The similarities between Chavez and Stalin are increasing. I dislike any repression, regardless of left and right wing.


Your comparison to Hitler is also very strange. Hitler was popular during his reign. So what is your argument here?

I never compared them as such. I merely debunked your claim that Chavez was justified by his popularity. Like you say, Hitler was, at least on a superficial level, popular, as Chavez appears to be. That, in itself, is no neither an accurate measure nor a valid argument for anyone's retainment of power.

[MaxB]

Chavez is a Marxist; as such, he can only stay in power by force. I thought you Leftists here had read the works of Marx? There's no such thing as a Democratic Socialism. Did you people miss the part about "dictator of the proletariat"? In other words: the dumb, ignorant, and stupid take over. The engineers, doctors, pharmacists, chemists, business managers, trade workers, and professionals in general leave the country and the nation collapses into famine and dire poverty. You Marxists morons don't relly beleive that the "masses" can carry the country. Haha. Another failure for Socialism, but this one came all the quicker. HAHAHA. I love it.
So what are you Leftists gonna do now? Redefine yourselves once again, "revise" Socialism again, "reinvent" Socialism to make it more appealing to the people?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

[Moskitto]

hello MaxB,

unfortunately it is "dictatorship of the proletariat" and that is not what it means,
and not every socialist is a marxist, John Ball wasn't, Thomas More wasn't, and neither are a lot of socialists,

[IHP]

I'm not exactly sure where all of this is coming from GR. I haven't supported Chavez, I haven't argued for continuation of his rule. I said to start out with that I'm not really too clued up about the situation anyway. I simply stated what I had read.

I never compared them as such. I merely debunked your claim that Chavez was justified by his popularity.

Where did I claim he was justified, and justified for what exactly? I have said next to nothing about him.

Like you say, Hitler was, at least on a superficial level, popular, as Chavez appears to be. That, in itself, is no neither an accurate measure nor a valid argument for anyone's retainment of power.

I didn't say that due to this rally of support, that he should stay in power, show me where I did. Once again, I only stated what I read.

I am yet to read enough about him to form a proper opinion anyway.

--IHP

[Stormin Norman]

Chavez is a Marxist; as such, he can only stay in power by force. I thought you Leftists here had read the works of Marx? There's no such thing as a Democratic Socialism. Did you people miss the part about "dictator of the proletariat"? In other words: the dumb, ignorant, and stupid take over. The engineers, doctors, pharmacists, chemists, business managers, trade workers, and professionals in general leave the country and the nation collapses into famine and dire poverty. You Marxists morons don't relly beleive that the "masses" can carry the country. Haha. Another failure for Socialism, but this one came all the quicker. HAHAHA. I love it.
So what are you Leftists gonna do now? Redefine yourselves once again, "revise" Socialism again, "reinvent" Socialism to make it more appealing to the people?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

I know you try to discredit MaxB as a copy and paste poster, but this is what I would consider to be a perfectly good response to leftist propaganda. In grade school we had a word to describe what justed happened to you commie pinkos. Face!

[IHP]

Unfortunately MaxB forgets that Cuba has more doctors per Capita than the US.

"In other words: the dumb, ignorant, and stupid take over. The engineers, doctors, pharmacists, chemists, business managers, trade workers, and professionals in general leave the country."

Ah heck, you even forgot that Cuba is led by a lawyer. I believe that a lawyer even fits into the strictest definition of "professional." Oh, and the US is led by an illiterate cowboy.

"the nation collapses into famine and dire poverty."

Open your eyes Maxie. Stop worrying so much about others. I know that you're such a kind-hearted person, but why not look after the 30% of Americas population living in very serious-critical hardship.

--IHP

(Edited by i hate pinochet at 5:28 am on Dec. 26, 2002)

[Som]

Quote: from guerrillaradio on 1:14 pm on Dec. 22, 2002

Quote: from Som on 5:10 am on Dec. 22, 2002
Hugo Chavez is quite a populist, He is still very popular still among the lower classes.

Which would explain why there is currently a national strike in Venezuela...

My knowledge on Chavez is limited, but from what I do know, he seems to be unpopular and repressive. Some issues go beyond left and right-wing. Chavez is one of those.


The ones on strike are bankers, lawyers, executives, and much of the oil industry.

Thats generally the middle and upper classes.

Most people have no part in it. The reason its creating a problem is because its the oil industry which is a big part of venezuelas economy.

Like I said, he still has quite strong support, much of it due not just to his nice rhetoric but his social programs for the poor. The media is quite biased against him, this is part of the reason he might seem generally unpopular.

I don't see how he is repressive, most of the accusations of that were things that the opposition brought onto themselves.

[ComradeJunichi]

We should be Bolschewik in here, I think he knows a lot about this.

It sounds like some of you are getting information off of CNN and Channel 1 propaganda.

www.narconews.com

[Larissa]

I'll post something I have already posted somwhere else, but can't find now... worth to read.

Take a look at this article posted on the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/29/internat...cas/29VENE.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/29/international/americas/29VENE.html)

It's doubly interesting, once rank-and-file workers are brought on to the scene, that they repudiate the "strike", that they see it in nationalist terms, that they point the finger at the executives and supervisors for introducing "politics" into the affair.

Nice quotes to remember:

"Night shift workers were bursting with the pride of war heroes."

"We are prouder now than ever," said Wilfredo Bastardo, a 17-year oil veteran. "We have shown our supervisors that we can run this plant without
them."


(Edited by Larissa at 11:11 am on Dec. 29, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from MaxB on 10:00 am on Dec. 23, 2002
Chavez is a Marxist; as such, he can only stay in power by force. I thought you Leftists here had read the works of Marx? There's no such thing as a Democratic Socialism. Did you people miss the part about "dictator of the proletariat"? In other words: the dumb, ignorant, and stupid take over. The engineers, doctors, pharmacists, chemists, business managers, trade workers, and professionals in general leave the country and the nation collapses into famine and dire poverty. You Marxists morons don't relly beleive that the "masses" can carry the country. Haha. Another failure for Socialism, but this one came all the quicker. HAHAHA. I love it.
So what are you Leftists gonna do now? Redefine yourselves once again, "revise" Socialism again, "reinvent" Socialism to make it more appealing to the people?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".


Dictatorship of the proletariat means rule of the majority. That is clearly not the situation here. He represents his own interests not the people's.