September 11 - Aren't we all looking at this from one perspe

[anti machine]

This is in no way meant to propose sympathy for the perpetrators of the 9/11 attack. I simply think that the vast majority of us, even those that profess hatred for the U.S. government, have unrightfully condemned Al-queada as blood-thirsty mongrels.

It seems that the motives of Osama bin Laden are in many ways similar to those of many of us here on this board. He hates America for the same reasons we hate America. Our government has made this out to be some holy war, but I disagree. Bin Laden, by posing an attack on the World Trade Center, has sent a blantant message to America that we seem to overlook: the WTC towers represent Capitalism. Osama bin Laden is condemning our economic system. Yes, innocent civilians died, and my heart goes out to them and their families, but this was not an attack against them. The time that was chosen to strike the towers was one of the least busy of the day. There were far less occupants than would have been, say, an hour later. Because the towers were the symbol of United States Capitalism is the reason why Osama chose them.

And are we forgetting, also, that the United States government itself has played executioner to far more innnocent deaths than those Americans that died that day? And this was Osama's second statement: the attack on the Pentagon, the symbol of American diplomacy. This was not a blood-thirsty endeavor-this was a political move, violent though it may be. A threat to the United States government, not to the people of this nation.

However, because of the innocent lives lost, I cannot condone these actions. Had the attack been strictly against the Pentagon, I would have supported it whole-heartedly. But we still must understand Bin Laden's intentions, which were not to rake in the death toll, but rather to offer an exhibition of the ideals represented by Al-Queada. And I would agree with these ideals, just not with the way in which they were made known.

[BOZG]

Osama bin Laden is a fucking multimillionaire. He does not hate capitalism. He imbraces it. The only thing he hates is that AmeriKKKa is making money in the middle east that he could be collecting to add to his own personal fortune. Another reason he hates AmeriKKKa is because he is an Islamic fundamentalist and an anti-semite. He opposes the US support of Israel (yes we all do but for different reasons) and that there are Jews in Bush's cabinet and he sees AmeriKKK as pro-Zionist and pro-Semite and he dislikes that.

[Corvus Corax]

My heart goes out to those MILLIONS of people that died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, all I say is America have tasted their treatment. I do not support either of the attacks in anyway.

[anti machine]

"The only thing he hates is that AmeriKKKa is making money in the middle east that he could be collecting to add to his own personal fortune."

BOZG, this is a shallow argument. You know better than that.

[Tkinter1]

Anti-machine,

There goals don't end at bringing down Capitalism. They want everyone in this nation to convert to Islam. Because right now in their minds we are 'infidels'.

I also read somewhere that Al-Qaeda believes it has the RIGHT to kill 4-6 million Americans. I believe it was from cryptome.org.

[BOZG]

BOZG, this is a shallow argument. You know better than that.

As opposed to your argument that bin Laden is anti-capitalist. At least I can back up mine.

[anti machine]

Back up the fact that Bin Laden only wants to prosper from what have become American money-making endeavors. The guy is not that greedy, or that stupid to assume that by terrorizing this country we would pull out of Afghanistan.

And tkinter-if Bin Laden wanted all the infidels dead, why didn't he target a populus area? His attack was a statement, and judging from the targets that he did choose, one is left to assume that this statement is one of defiance of the American government, not the people of America.

I'm not claiming that Bin Laden is a professed anti-capitalist, but he is anti-American gov't which embraces capitalism. He is protesting this system in a very out-right way.

[BOZG]

He's a multimillionaire from his family's constuction business in Saudi Arabia. He attacks the AmeriKKKan not because it embraces capitalism but because of the treatment of Muslims and its pro-Israel stance and for no other reasons.

[Tkinter1]

What does he expect to gain in your opinion?

[BOZG]

I don't think he really expects to gain anything yet. I think it's more of a warning towards the American government than anything to stop interfering with the Islamic countries and to stop supporting Israel.

[Tkinter1]

So what makes him think that taking his anger out civilians will solve anything? Wouldn't you think that would bring more troubles for him, and the Islamic world? He's just making the Islamic faith, and himself look bad in my opinion.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I believe that their intentions were indeed to kill Americans.
They're principles are based on the idea that American lifestyle and American Capitalism needs to be destroyed because it is unholy and abusive to the rest of the world, I partialy agree with this idea. To impact America the most, the killing of the people was necessary. To destroy the American society, they saw it necessary to destroy the people and, debatably to destroy the economy.

I achieved some of this information from an Al-Jazeera interview with Al-Asuquf of the Al-Qaeda. This can be found somewhere on one of these forums in a thread title in Portuguese, the fourth or fifth post translates it into English, the interview, that is.

[Tkinter1]

"They're principles are based on the idea that American lifestyle and American Capitalism needs to be destroyed because it is unholy and abusive to the rest of the world"

exactly.


Doing what they did was neither wise, nor holy.

[anti machine]

His intentions go hand-in-hand with his organization's label: to terrorize. To send a clear message to Washington. His reasons for doing so may be a bit hazy, but the idea that he did this out of personal gain and to force Americans out of the Islamic world is preposterous. He is smarter than that, and he knew that we would attack Al-Queada and set a price on his head. No, there is more to this puzzle than meets the eye.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from BornOfZapatasGuns on 8:02 pm on Dec. 8, 2002

BOZG, this is a shallow argument. You know better than that.

As opposed to your argument that bin Laden is anti-capitalist. At least I can back up mine.


Well he did take out the world trade towers. In my mind that is the representation or mecca for modern day capitalism. He didn't take out churches, so I doubt that it is truly a "holy war". He hit two things, a government structure (military to be exact" and a capitalist structure. The planes of course is just ammunition for them as our shells are for us. The innocent people were for a better part, collateral damage. "To get to our desired targets some innocent lives will be loss." Same from both sides.

I do believe he is anti-capitalism since capitalism and our military involvement protecting and aquiring is one of the driving reasons behind many of the issues in the middle east. We don't get involved for many other reasons.

I don't think he is pro-millionaire. You don't fight the russians for 12 years ro so out in the middle of some of the worst and unhospitable terrain in the world when you are concerned with aquiring money. Dealing with the U.S. directly in oil sales does not make you poor. Direct dealers of oil are those sheik guys everybody use to see in the 80's with 600 rolls royces.

[BOZG]

It's more than just being millionaire. It's the fact that he is an Islamic fundamentalist. If the Russians had succeeded in conquering Afghanistan Islam would have been outlawed.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from BornOfZapatasGuns on 4:55 pm on Dec. 9, 2002
It's more than just being millionaire. It's the fact that he is an Islamic fundamentalist. If the Russians had succeeded in conquering Afghanistan Islam would have been outlawed.

I truly doubt that he is no more an Islamic Fundamentalist than Baker is a fundamentalist Christian. Religious groups are great ways to get things done, and being at the top of one allows for a lot of control of a lot of people. Religious people already are believing in something incrediable like a God and an Afterlife all on faith. They are already organized and they will have a commanality with themselves. If you can make your goal sound like it should be their goal you will have the real fundamentilists jump aboard. Religions in general also don't question things, just go on faith.

I don't doubt that he is religious perhaps to some degree, but not a fundamentalist, he just sounds that way to atract the hardcore group over to him.

[BOZG]

Maybe he isn't a fundamentalist but he is definately NOT anti-capitalist.

[canikickit]

Maybe he isn't a fundamentalist but he is definately NOT anti-capitalist.

He rejected his rich lifestyle. He used to drive around in his expensive US made cars, but I somehow doubt he is enjoying that lifestyle right now.

[Exploited Class]

Quote: from BornOfZapatasGuns on 4:55 pm on Dec. 10, 2002
Maybe he isn't a fundamentalist but he is definately NOT anti-capitalist.


I am sure he is anti-communist, but I can't see how he is anti-capitalist. He has tried once, then succeeded in removing the meca temple of capitalism the World Trade Towers. He could have attacked anything but it was the epa-center of commerce and trade. I'd say that, that is was pretty anti-capitalistic action.

He is anti-american, but what about America does he dislike, our government which is the shadow of American Corporations. The government does what is good for the corporations, the capitalistic corporations and then the U.S. military protects the intrests of those corporations.

[Michael De Panama]

He rejected his rich lifestyle? Are you kidding? The guy's a multibillionaire. He has fourty fucking wives, with God knows how many kids. So what if he dresses in rags to make himself look like the common man he's fighting for? He's bourgeois, he's a capitalist, and he's a sick fuck.

When I heard on 9/11, half asleep, and without the proper caffeine in my system, just out of a dream that I was playing arcade games with Maynard James Keenen, because the night before I had bought Tool tickets, that the World Trade-something- got bombed, I was thrilled. I was thinking, all leftists around the world must be thrilled. I got to school and saw that the twin towers, the World Trade Center, not the World Trade Organization, was what got bombed. This wasn't an attack on capitalism, it was an attack on two buildings full of innocent people who have done nothing, many of which were working class comrades.

If it were an attack on capitalism, it would have been on the World Trade Organization. He attacked the World Trade Center because those were the two most highly populated towers in the country.

Bin Laden is a capitalist, and George Bush is a capitalist. They're both wealthy oil men. They both preach their religious dogma. They're the same fucking person.

[anti machine]

I still say that, considering the time the WTC was hit, which was the least populated time of day, he wasn't going for people. It is futile to kill a handful of Americans, and he knows that. He wasn't trying to take out as many "infidels" as he could. If that was the intention, he would've hit Times Square the day after Thanksgiving. No, this was a political statement, a bloody political statement.

[Aleksander Nordby]

USA are not standing for liberty they are some fuking murders.

[BOZG]

Quote: from canikickit on 2:04 am on Dec. 11, 2002

Maybe he isn't a fundamentalist but he is definately NOT anti-capitalist.

He rejected his rich lifestyle. He used to drive around in his expensive US made cars, but I somehow doubt he is enjoying that lifestyle right now.


Which is easier to find? A multimillionaire living the fast life in expensive cars and huge palaces or someone who looks like the average Muslim in the streets? He didn't give up his lifestyle because he wanted to he gave it up because he had to.




He could have attacked anything but it was the epa-center of commerce and trade. I'd say that, that is was pretty anti-capitalistic action.

He is anti-american, but what about America does he dislike, our government which is the shadow of American Corporations. The government does what is good for the corporations, the capitalistic corporations and then the U.S. military protects the intrests of those corporations.

If he did attack the WTC as an attack on trade on commerce, I really doubt it was on an anti-capitalist basis but on an anti-american trade basis. I'd say he opposes the effects of American trade and commerce and not commerce in general.

[Som]

He isn't anti or pro capitalist. He's anti-western simply.

He is against western capitalism.

The world trade centers are a symbol as is the pentagon, they hit the symbols of the american economic and military powers.

I doubt that he wanted to kill as many people as possible, in one of the interviews they vaguely showed on television, he even said he didn't expect the towers to collapse. There are far more effective ways to kill as many people as possible with that sort of plan. The innocents to him were just collateral damage.

[anti machine]

Thank you Som.

[bandit]

i think that bush was in on the attacks . c'mon half of the nation didnt want him in office before the attacks and now a vast majority to people adore him saying how much he has done for this country and shit all he did was give a fucking speech and send his people into afganistan to kill and bomb whats so great about that but they love him. he did it he was part because he had to do something drastik to make america like him. i mean he has a horrible rep because of his dad who by the way SUCKED IN OFFICE TOO

[anti machine]

Perhaps he didn't play a major role in the attacks, he possibly simply allowed them to happen. The CIA's sketches of plans to oust Castro in the 60's are just now coming to light, and they consist of ideas such as shooting John Glenn out of orbit and terrorizing American cities, all with the intent of framing Castro for it. If our government was capable of brainstorming such things in the 60's, imagine how far they have come. This could be interpreted as an excuse to proclaim war on terrorism and Al-Queada, not to mention ousting the Taliban, but I disagree that they are fully responsible. Bush knew-this is undisputed. Bush knew, the "democratically elected" leader of the people, and he did nothing.

[Soso Koba]

The people in WTC were not comrades of any sort, nor were they working class.

Osama is not a rich capitalist anymore, he has most of his accounts siezed by the saudi's prior to 9/11. He is capitalist but he's anti-U.S imperialism, which makes him an ally for communists who actually want to take action everywhere. He isn't a friend in the long run because he's anti-soviet too but its the whole 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'

[Moskitto]

enemy of an enemy is not necessarily a friend

[Bolschewik]

I don't consider Osama bin Laden to be a capitalist.

I find those that believe he is, use his wealth as the chief premise to his support of capitalism. The logic in such arguement is flawed because high wealth does not necesserily imply a support for capitalism. Especially in the case of Osama bin Laden, because the wealth accumulated by him was not accumulated through capitalism/free enterprise. As we know it, capitalism represents the ethics and principals of the Western economy, something that is greatly resented by bin Laden and his followers.

[Stormin Norman]

You're right! Perhaps if I tried to look at the world through the eyes of these anti-semetic "Hitler's in head scarfs", I could see exactly where they are coming from. Yes, that is what I will do. I will change my persective to align more closely with these religious fanatics and try to understand what we must have done to force them into a postition of committing mass-murder. They are really the victims, not those they killed. I am going to make an honest attempt to understand just how badly these fascist pigs have been victimized by U.S. economic and foreign policy.

Yeah right. I could give a fuck what their reasons are. I want them dead, every last one of them. Maybe I will learn more about their state of mind solely for the purpose helping to understand and develop a thorough hatred of my enemies, but I will never try to excuse or justify their terrorism. If by understanding their world-view I can aid in devising a more efficient means by which to kill them off, it will have been time well spent. But do not expect me to consider your view that it is somehow America's fault we were attacked. I am not in the blaim America first crowd. I fault the perpetrators of the crime, not the victim, no matter what level of crime has been committed.

Have you read much of the propaganda they are allowed to publish within our own borders? Islamic groups have more of a problem with our culture than they do our economic and foreign policy. This is a culture war. If it is necessary to obliterate the culture of those who wish to destroy us, my own culture takes precedence. So long anti-semites, America haters, and purchasers of Osama Bin Laden toys. Perhaps you should have taken your aggression out on those within your own governments who oppress you and shift the blaim to America. Perhaps you should have spent more time devising the overthrow of the autocrats that manipulate you, than schemes to threaten the American people. Tough luck. Now you are faced with the decision of whether you wish to support our war and take a more moderate stance, or witness the destruction of the culture that promotes political violence as a means of cohersion. We will not bargain with the likes of you. Stand down or be demolished.

(Edited by Stormin Norman at 10:12 pm on Dec. 17, 2002)