Communism & Political Correctness - stupid capitalist myth

[El Brujo]

Ive noticed many capitalists claiming some bullshit about
communism being against individuality. Communism dosen't mean were all drones acting and living like everyone else. The idea behind it is that were all EQUAL, not that were all the same. Simply look at the Soviet Union, 15 different nationalities living under the same system and being treated the same while keeping in-tact with their respective cultures and customs. If anything, capitalism and liberalism are much closer to being too politically correct, to the point where some politicians in capitalist states (ie. Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr.) use it for political ends. Not to mention that the U.S. is trying to americanize the rest of the world through its imperialism, therefore destroying other cultutres so the rest of the world falls under one monopolistic culture (ie. becoming the SAME). To make things short: communism = diversity and equality (two values that the U$ hypocritically claim to embrace), capitalism = assimilation and inequality.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

You make an excellent point! It is also somewhat the fault of the American left wing that gives conservative Americans a distorted view of Communism. You're right Americans claim to promote individuality, where, in fact, by McDonalizing the world, it slowly destroyes the countrie's original culture.What Capies don't see is that Communism simply tries to make the people socialy and economicaly equal, not the same. Capitalism, on the other hand, at least in America, tries to stereotype everything so that no one is an individual and everyone fits conviniently into the American dream, with a family, a car, a dog and materialistic ambitions.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

You make an excellent point! It is also somewhat the fault of the American left wing that gives conservative Americans a distorted view of Communism. You're right Americans claim to promote individuality, where, in fact, by McDonalizing the world, it slowly destroyes the countrie's original culture.What Capies don't see is that Communism simply tries to make the people socialy and economicaly equal, not the same. Capitalism, on the other hand, at least in America, tries to stereotype everything so that no one is an individual and everyone fits conviniently into the American dream, with a family, a car, a dog and materialistic ambitions.

[Tkinter1]

Communism undoubtedly promotes conformity. It can't function properly without it. The Soviet Union is a prime example of this! People who didn't conform were simply sent to gulags, or working camps. And the Soviets also imposed their beliefs on other nations as well. Like you said 15 different nationalities living under one system, even though many of them didn't want to. There isn't any room to be what you want in Communism. If I'm out doing what I want to do with my life, I'm not helping the community therefore I need to be sent away. This allegiance you expect from individuals to work solely for the state or for the community, just doesn't exist.

Communism = conformity, undiversity
Capitalism/US = Equal oppurtunity, diversity

[El Brujo]

VC: Your right about the American "left"(democratic party) and how it distorts what the left is all about. The democratic party is more concerned with being politically correct than with fixing the countries problems with poverty so they dillute the problem and people will conform to it rather than fix it. I also forgot to mention that the American right uses political correctness to support Israel just because they were opressed during WW2, even though Israel is almost as fascistic as Nazi Germany and does the same kinds of shit to the Palestinians that the Nazis did to the Jews.

Tkinter1: What makes you think capitalism and the U$ don't promote conformity? They promote it subliminaly through propaganda and bad education. Simply look at the electoral system, americans have to conform to whatever shitheel, "lesser of two evils" is properly funded by the corporations to run. And the people are taught from day 1 that if your to the left, you vote democrat and if your to the right you vote republican and anything else is out of mind (a lot of people aren't even aware that there are party's apart from the democrats and the republicans and arent encouraged to educate themselves on the matter). There is also tremendous voter apathy in the U.S. Why? Because the people DON'T KNOW SHIT and are conditioned not to care. I mean for fuck sake, you travel to other countries and they know more about the U.S. government than the people in the U.S. do.

Also, the workers are forced to conform to whatever miserable wages they are payed or they are fired and die of hunger. By no means is there "equal opportunity" in the U$. Are you going to tell me that someone born into poverty who can't afford to go to school will have "equal opportunity" to a very rich person who could be bribed into whatever private university there is (and probably dosen't even need education because he will get his hereditary business from his daddy)? The rich want the masses to believe they have equal opportunity so they won't do anything about it.

In the Soviet Union, however. Yes, people were forced to work for the good of the community but it was for their own good. Everyone would support each other and as a strive as a union rather than being forced to fight for their lives as if they were animals such as in capitalist countries.

Lets also look at fads for a second. MTV and other such money-grubbing corporations are a force on what is and what isnt "cool". That way, it will condition the people (mainly the youth) to follow stupid fads (ie: becoming the SAME) so the corporations could make money. The media tells everyone that they have to spend like theres no fucking tomorrow to be considered "civilized" by putting it at the standards of the typical rich, white, suburban family. In communist countries, everyone would be economically equal so there would be no material envy between the people and would not be forced to act or look a certain way for money. There would also be no "celebrity warship" as there is in the U.S. where people buy certain things and act a certain way to "be like Mike".

And you fail to prove how having been living under the Soviet Union took the different people's cultural identity away. One of the main concerns of Lenin after the bolshevik revolution was how to properly bring the non-Russian Soviet territories into the system while respecting their cultures, languages, etc.

(Edited by El Brujo at 4:40 am on Dec. 7, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

"What makes you think capitalism and the U$ don't promote conformity?"

Having political parties is one huge way the US does not promote conformity. Under Communism, its the state or nothing. Also the diverse cultural groups in the US are free to express their beliefs without fear of persecution from the government. And if that right is infringed upon, then they have the right to protest.

"Simply look at the electoral system, americans have to conform to whatever shitheel, "lesser of two evils" is properly funded by the corporations to run."

The Electoral College has been used like twice in US history. And just because one party has a majority, doesn't mean people can't vote the way they want. It's the peoples choice who they want to vote for. Whether that be mainstream, or underground.

"I also forgot to mention that the American right uses political correctness to support Israel just because they were opressed during WW2, even though Israel is almost as fascistic as Nazi Germany and does the same kinds of shit to the Palestinians that the Nazis did to the Jews."
This is a tough issue, that can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. The US doesn't FORCE people to agree with who is 'bad' and who is 'good' in this situation. The country is entitled to it's opinions is it not?

Also, the workers are forced to conform to whatever miserable wages they are payed or they are fired and die of hunger.

Thats completley untrue. Unions protect workers from unfair wages, and if it becomes a severe problem the workers have the right to walk out until the problem is fixed. It's the peoples choice in this nation whether or not they stand up for what they believe in. No one forces anyone to conform.

"There is also tremendous voter apathy in the U.S. Why? Because the people DON'T KNOW SHIT and are conditioned not to care. I mean for fuck sake, you travel to other countries and they know more about the U.S. government than the people in the U.S. do."

And under Communism it would be different?


"Are you going to tell me that someone born into poverty who can't afford to go to school will have "equal opportunity" to a very rich person"

Yes I certainly am. Kurt Cobain was living under a bridge before he became wealthy, as with most musicians. It's not just about becoming the 'richest' you know either. My grandfather who immigrated from Albania, came with nothing. And now he lives very comfortably where he is, because he had the opportunity to become something better than he was.

"Lets also look at fads for a second. MTV and other such money-grubbing corporations are a force on what is and what isnt "cool". That way, it will condition the people (mainly the youth) to follow stupid fads (ie: becoming the SAME) so the corporations could make money."

Then exercise your freedom NOT to buy their products, and exercise your right to speak your own mind.

"In the Soviet Union, however. Yes, people were forced to work for the good of the community but it was for their own good."

Even if I don't believe it to be? Even if that means living through food shortages and disease? Who are you to decide what is for my own good?

"The media tells everyone that they have to spend like theres no fucking tomorrow to be considered "civilized" by putting it at the standards of the typical rich, white, suburban family. "

No one is forcing you to listen to the media. You make your own standards in the US.

"In communist countries, everyone would be economically equal so there would be no material envy between the people and would not be forced to act or look a certain way for money."

Lets say I'm a doctor. I help 50 patients a week, and Joe over there only helps 5. We get the same thing because we are both doctors. Are you telling me I wouldn't be envious and jealous of him?

"And you fail to prove how having been living under the Soviet Union took the different people's cultural identity away."

By forcing them to accept Marxism, and an allegiance to the state. It also persecuted Jews, certain artists, and writers.

"One of the main concerns of Lenin after the bolshevik revolution was how to properly bring the non-Russian Soviet territories into the system while respecting their cultures, languages, etc."

But then ethnocentrism sets in.

[theewokchief]

Quote: from El Brujo on 1:52 am on Dec. 6, 2002
Simply look at the Soviet Union, 15 different nationalities living under the same system and being treated the same while keeping in-tact with their respective cultures and customs.


Thats utter bullshit. In the soviet union, which was far from a communist country, more like state run capitalism, anyone wo was not actually from russia was generally treated in a derogatory fashion.

As for keeping their traditions, the whole point of communism is surely to wipe away the vestiges of their original capiaist culture and impose the new egalitarian code? The october revolution swept away the church (mostly) and the old peasant cast system.

At the end of the day, people go on too much about political correctness. Some is crap, some is neccessary. Its just something to get people arguing pointlessly over.

[Tkinter1]

How was it like state run Capitalism?

[theewokchief]

the government engaged in capitall based trade with foreign countires, keeping the money for itself, like a company.

[Tkinter1]

I see. That's an interesting interpretation.

[theewokchief]

thank you. I hold my hannd up and point out i am not the originator of this opinion.

[antieverything]

TK, you point out how the different parties in the united states show how we don't conform...doesn't that strike you as a weak point as we only have two parties who are very similar in addition to an electorate trained not to think?

[Umoja]

It's not that the two parties want to be similar though. They have to be so they can get a near equal amount of votes, acting to ideally, they can lose votes, which is dangerous to them.

[Tkinter1]

"TK, you point out how the different parties in the united states show how we don't conform...doesn't that strike you as a weak point as we only have two parties who are very similar in addition to an electorate trained not to think?"

No, the different parties show that there is an availability for people not to conform. Yes there are two MAIN parties, but as you probably know, there are less heard of names on the ballot. I can say however that a good percentage of people feel that if they don't vote Republican or Democrat, they have thrown their vote away. But that's not to say that the majority of people who vote only vote who they do because there is no one else. A good majority of the people voting could truly be Rep. or Dem. I don't think the electorate is trained not to think, I think they choose not to. If they vote and don't think about what decision they've made, there is something seriously wrong with them.

[Corvus Corax]

'I can say however that a good percentage of people feel that if they don't vote Republican or Democrat, they have thrown their vote away. '
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Thats a very good and true point, and is a big problem in todays elections.