Let Israel Burn

[Dean]

It's pretty sad what happened in Israel today.

Conversely, look at what the Israelis are considering as revenge:

Soon after the attack, Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, asked his cabinet to look at the possibility of demolishing the home of the bulldozer driver, Israel's Haaretz reported.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/07/20087212342527596.html

How ironic that the western media only reported the tragedy, not the quote from the Prime Minister who unintentionally brings the problem to light.

This is why I have so little sympathy for the Israeli government and military.

[GPDP]

You had sympathy for them to begin with?

[Sir Comradical]

Those same bulldozers are used to demolish Palestinian homes which is rarely mentioned in the establishment media.

[OI OI OI]

I have to bring up this . Individual terrorism will bring nothing good for Palestinians.
If they kill one Israelis , Israel will kill 10 Palestinians. Terrorism-Repression-Terrorism-Repression and so on and so on. The tactic of individual terrorism was adopted by the NArodniks under the Czarist rule. It failed there due to terrorism bringing more repression and alienating and eliminating terrorists . The Czar had a big army and the Cossaks to back him up. So eventualy the Narodniks were defeated. But who succeded in overthrowing the Czar? Lenin.
The same will Israel and PAlestine. It is a bloody circle. Also Israel has a mighty army and the Americans that back it up because it is very conviniently located for the American interests. So why would the Palestinians repeat the mistakes of the Narodniks? It is a foolish tactic and will only bring more repression and more death to the opressed Palestinians. But if the Palestinians stop using individual terrorist methods maybe something can change in the futeure. Don't forget that the Israeli proletariat is dissatisfied and the PM enjoys onbly 7% aproval. It is not like the Israeli people are happy under capitalism. So if in the future the Palestinians stop using individual terrorism and the mutual attacks halt, then the Palestinian and Israeli workers can unite and overthrow capitalism. Do not forget that they have united a lot of times int he past for the same struggle. It is time for the PAlestinian proletariat to stop the rejected by history and logic Narodnic tactics and take a more Leninist aproach.

PS: I am equally "pissed off" with the Israeli State

[manic expression]

OI OI OI, the Palestinians are not engaging in "individual terrorism", but a broader armed struggle against imperialism. This is the only outlet left, as peaceful opposition has been made impossible by the callousness of the Zionist imperialists. The Narodniki were stupid terrorists who threw bombs at people, this is obvious, but there is no relation between that and the Palestinian struggle. The question facing the Palestinians is simple: armed struggle or complete subjugation; in this case there is no middle ground, and that is not the fault of the Palestinians, but of the Zionists.

There is actually a large Leninist group in Palestine, the PFLP (some RevLeft members are strong supporters of them), and they are also involved in the armed struggle.

[Yehuda Stern]

Here is our statement on the events:

Statement of the ISL (Israel) on the Terrorist Event In Jerusalem

The ruling class of the Zionist state has been facing a difficult situation for a while now. It has been defeated in Lebanon, it has failed to break the will power of the Palestinian people, and it has suffered from the growing world economic crisis. The American imperialists refuse to make a commitment to support Israel in case it decides to attack Iran. The French President, whose show of support for Israel was meant to give French imperialism a new foothold in the Middle East, is deeply unpopular in his own country, and obviously France cannot substitute for the military strength of the US. They are so down on their luck that they are even afraid of losing the support of Israeli workers, evidenced by their quick capitulation in the face of strike threats by the Histadrut, even though they know very well that Histadrut Chairman Ofer Eini is "their man" in the union.

Things were to become worse. A deal has been finalized with Hizb Allah for an exchange of prisoners. Hamas seems to have finally made its long sought-after settlement with the imperialists. This is deadly for the Zionists. Israel, a country whose only function in the world imperialist system is the military suppression of the masses in the Middle East, lives on strife. If the fundamentalists and the nationalist bourgeoisie can subdue 'their' masses, then support of the Zionist state becomes unnecessary PR trouble for imperialism. This explains the regrowth of Zionist hysteria regarding Iran.

The terrorist attack in Jerusalem must be viewed in this context. Who was Khussam Dwayat? According to YNet, the website of Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot, was a 31 year old father of two from the Sur Baher neighbourhood in East Jerusalem. He was not a member of any political organization and does not seem to have had strong political views. His attack seems to have been quite spontaneous, not pre-planned like other terrorist attacks in the past.

The Zionist racists can easily explain this: it is the evil "Arab nature," the uncivilized and brutal nature of Islam, maybe "extremism," etc. The arguments change as one goes from left to right across the political spectrum. But all the arguments have the same purpose: to avoid an explanation of terrorism, something that the Zionists fear like the devil. What worries the Zionists is not terrorist attacks, but the threat of a new intifadah. They are afraid of the fact that Khussam Dwayat had very common social characteristics, and that instead of terrorism, which plays into their hands, they will face a new popular uprising.

As Marxists we must explain scientifically what would drive a relatively young man to give up his life in order to kill innocent people. But we already know the context of the attack. After Hamas' victory in the election and the Israeli disengagement from Gaza, many people had false hopes that perhaps, if Palestine could not be taken back in its entirety, than Hamas could at least ensure the Palestinians a better life in the parts of the land in which they live now. But Hamas' and Hizb Allah's new deals with imperialism have crushed these dreams, as the ISL has warned all along. Superexploited and seeing before them not workers and capitalists, but only a racist society of colonialists, the Palestinian masses can feel no sympathy for the Israeli workers.

The ISL truly symapthizes with the suffering of the Israeli masses, unlike the Zionists who despise them and use them as cannon fodder. For this reason, we are honest with them. We say to them: so long as you continue to identify yourself with the state; so long as you continue to support its murderous oppression of the Palestinians; so long as you continue so sacrifice yourself and your children for its wars in service of imperialism, the Palestinian people will not and cannot sympathize with you, or tell the difference between you and your oppressors. The only way for Jews to live in peace in this land is to support the proletarian revolution in the Middle East.

Obviously, we sympathize with the expropriated and oppressed Palestinians as well. And for the same reason, we are honest with them too. Terrorism cannot advance the struggle for national liberation, much less for socialism. Even if the attacks would target only military targets or officials, they could not shake the foundations of the colonialist state. The only way for the Palestinians to ever be free is to overthrow imperialism and its client regimes - the only way to do this is by building revolutionary workers' parties, which will be led by the most class conscious elements of the working class of this region.

Another point that should be observed is the attitude of Hamas to this event. To quote Haaretz, "While Islamic Jihad lauded the bulldozer attack in Jerusalem, Hamas avoided expressing any enthusiastic support for the act. The family of the terrorist did not put up any Hamas flags on its home, and the family did not receive even a partial endorsement from the organization. Irrespective of the questionable criminal record of the terrorist, it seems that the measured response of Hamas is linked more to the group's wish to lower - at this time - its public visage in the confrontation with Israel. The attack in Jerusalem does not serve Hamas well at a time when it is mostly seeking to improve the living conditions in the Gaza Strip, and it needs Israel's agreement in order to keep the crossings into the Strip open." In other words, Hamas has already begun getting used to its new role as another policeman for Israel in Palestine.

The terrorist attacks will be used once more by the Zionists in order to justify their racist policies. Already there is talk of reversing an order disallowing the destruction of homes of the families of terrorists. The hypocrisy here is astounding. Has Baruch Goldstein's home been wrecked? What about the home of Eden Nathan-Zada, the fascist who murdered 4 Palestinians in a bus in the city of Shfaram? Knowing the Zionists, they define as terrorists all those who dare rise up against Israeli oppression (former Minister of Finance, Benyamin Nethanyahu, even called striking workers terrorists once).

The ISL stands firmly against this current. In the face of the silence and embarrassment of the 'radical', i.e. centrist and reformist left, we clearly spell out our positions. We do not hide our slogans, which remain unchanged:

For a Palestinian Workers' State, from the Jordan to the Sea!
Against Zionist pogromism!
For the setting up of vanguard parties in every country of the Middle East!
Rebuild the Fourth International!


I would also like to say that the tactic of the official Palestinian organizations has in fact been individual terrorism, which has separated the Palestinian masses from the struggle and has targeted mostly innocent Jews. The PFLP is not a Marxist organization, it is a Stalinist group which has been in league with Fatah, and which has served the Israeli occupiers along with it for years. For example, in the latest civil war with Hamas, the PFLP was on the side of Fatah.

[InTheMatterOfBoots]

As Marxists we must explain scientifically what would drive a relatively young man to give up his life in order to kill innocent people.

For the setting up of vanguard parties in every country of the Middle East!

These are two of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. Otherwise, I broadly agree with the anti-militarist perspective. I would also add though that if there is to be a working class movement in Palestine it needs to be a unifying one (with Israel).

[manic expression]

These are two of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read. Otherwise, I broadly agree with the anti-militarist perspective. I would also add though that if there is to be a working class movement in Palestine it needs to be a unifying one (with Israel).

Almost. There needs to be unity with the Israeli working class, not the Zionist imperialists who rule them (and if you look at the stats, the non-Zionist Israelis are voting with their feet). Beyond that, the struggle for Palestine is a struggle against imperialism, and that struggle must take up arms because there is simply no other alternative. The racist oppression of Israeli imperialism must be broken for there ever to be progress in the region.

[Yehuda Stern]

What's ridiculous? I see that you're an anarcho-communist and therefore oppose vanguardism in general, but is it ridiculous to analyze what drove Khusam Dwayat to commit this act? Do you fall for the Zionist explanation, that it's Arab or Muslim nature?

As for unity with Israelis, what we must understand is that the Israeli working class is part of a colonialist nation, like the South African whites, and therefore can in no way be considered an independent revolutionary force. Jewish workers can only become revolutionaries if they turn their backs on the Zionist state and became part of the socialist, anti-imperialist revolution of the Middle Eastern masses. Those who offer to the Palestinians to 'unify' with workers at a Zionist level of consciousness in effect offer to the advanced workers to lower themselves to the level of the backward ones instead of pulling them to their level. This is also consistent with an anti-vanguard approach.

BTW, those voting with their feet are not necessarily non-Zionists. I know many Zionists who do not wish to live here. It only sounds contradictory until you realize that some of the most fanatic Zionists in the world are rich American Jews. Most Israeli Jews remain loyal to the Zionist state.

[manic expression]

As for unity with Israelis, what we must understand is that the Israeli working class is part of a colonialist nation, like the South African whites, and therefore can in no way be considered an independent revolutionary force. Jewish workers can only become revolutionaries if they turn their backs on the Zionist state and became part of the socialist, anti-imperialist revolution of the Middle Eastern masses. Those who offer to the Palestinians to 'unify' with workers at a Zionist level of consciousness in effect offer to the advanced workers to lower themselves to the level of the backward ones instead of pulling them to their level. This is also consistent with an anti-vanguard approach.

A large portion of the Israeli workers have been bought off and/or blinded by propaganda, definitely, but that does not make them incompatible as a revolutionary force. Any working class, in my estimation, has revolutionary potential, and thus it must be taken into account and encouraged at every turn. Yes, just like the Afrikaner and British South African workers, there is a large amount of pro-imperialist and reactionary sentiment, but that is precisely why the communists must combat it to strengthen the struggle against imperialism.

The same way communists seek to work within mainstream trade unions to increase the militancy of reformist workers, we must appeal to the Israeli working class to overthrow their masters and unite with Palestinian workers. A long shot? Yes. Worth a try? Yes.


BTW, those voting with their feet are not necessarily non-Zionists. I know many Zionists who do not wish to live here. It only sounds contradictory until you realize that some of the most fanatic Zionists in the world are rich American Jews. Most Israeli Jews remain loyal to the Zionist state.I think you are right, but some of them, mostly younger Israelis who wanted no part in the Zionist project, are non-Zionists. And yes, a good number of them are rich Zionists who send money and support to their "homeland" (there are many where I grew up), but that cannot explain the wider pattern of emigration from Israel (something that I believe will inevitably contribute to Zionism's final downfall).

By the way, I look forward to hearing your impressions on Israel and the left there.

[Yehuda Stern]

We should separate between two things - our disagreement which relates to a matter of facts and our disagreement which relates to a matter of principle. On the matter of facts, I can tell you that few Israelis are anti-Zionists or non-Zionists in any meaningful way. I'm not saying that they are rich but that there's no contradiction between their being Zionists and their unwillingness to live in Israel. True, this sentiment might at one point acquire a revolutionary significance. Today, however, it is not so. And I never said not to talk to Zionist workers - on the contrary, we do all we can to penetrate their ranks as well.

On a matter of principle, I believe you are wrong about workers in South Africa or Israel being like anywhere else. The truth, the workers of colonialist states have never been able to turn against 'their' ruling class. Individuals have switched to the other side at times, but as a rule most of them remained true to the racist state until the end. We do believe that under the pressure of world events, we could have a significant minority of Jewish workers joining our revolution - but our main focus remains the Palestinian working class, in 'Israeli' Palestine as well as the rest of the land.

[bcbm]

OI OI OI, the Palestinians are not engaging in "individual terrorism", but a broader armed struggle against imperialism. This is the only outlet left, as peaceful opposition has been made impossible by the callousness of the Zionist imperialists. The Narodniki were stupid terrorists who threw bombs at people, this is obvious, but there is no relation between that and the Palestinian struggle. The question facing the Palestinians is simple: armed struggle or complete subjugation; in this case there is no middle ground, and that is not the fault of the Palestinians, but of the Zionists.


Armed struggle means engaging in acts of murder against the civilian population of your enemy? I understand why these attacks occur, but writing them off as simply part of the "armed struggle" with no critical judgment is absurd. A butcher is a butcher and attacks against the civilian population do noting to further their cause.


There is actually a large Leninist group in Palestine, the PFLP (some RevLeft members are strong supporters of them), and they are also involved in the armed struggle.

Large might be an overstatement. Its been split numerous times and been weakened a great deal by the growth of the Islamist resistance groups.

[Bear MacMillan]

I remember when it happened, I was watching TV and it was the aftermath of the incident, when no one was really sure what happend, and the news reporter kept asking "what organization did he belong to?" or "do you know the political motive of the attack?". To the western media, whenever a Palestinian does something against Israel, whether he is a member of any organization or not, he is a terrorist.

[manic expression]

We should separate between two things - our disagreement which relates to a matter of facts and our disagreement which relates to a matter of principle. On the matter of facts, I can tell you that few Israelis are anti-Zionists or non-Zionists in any meaningful way. I'm not saying that they are rich but that there's no contradiction between their being Zionists and their unwillingness to live in Israel. True, this sentiment might at one point acquire a revolutionary significance. Today, however, it is not so. And I never said not to talk to Zionist workers - on the contrary, we do all we can to penetrate their ranks as well.

OK, I get that. Also, I wasn't trying to imply that your organization didn't try to reach out to Jewish workers, I was simply reiterating what I think is an important part of the communist movement. If it came across that way that was my mistake.


On a matter of principle, I believe you are wrong about workers in South Africa or Israel being like anywhere else. The truth, the workers of colonialist states have never been able to turn against 'their' ruling class. Individuals have switched to the other side at times, but as a rule most of them remained true to the racist state until the end. We do believe that under the pressure of world events, we could have a significant minority of Jewish workers joining our revolution - but our main focus remains the Palestinian working class, in 'Israeli' Palestine as well as the rest of the land.

Well, I never said they were "like anywhere else", that would be ignoring all the material and ideological conditions of the country. Like I said, it's obvious that the workers have been bought off and that chauvinism is widespread. At the same time, the Afrikaner community pushed its rulers toward ending apartheid; everyone knew it was unsustainable and they wanted a solution that didn't include their violent downfall. The same can (and will, IMO) happen in Israel because Zionist domination is just as unsustainable as apartheid. So, basically, I agree with your assessment.

Superstar DJ BCBM

Armed struggle means engaging in acts of murder against the civilian population of your enemy? I understand why these attacks occur, but writing them off as simply part of the "armed struggle" with no critical judgment is absurd. A butcher is a butcher and attacks against the civilian population do noting to further their cause.

Yes, it can mean that, although it is certainly a tragedy in many ways. The Palestinian population is subjected to daily terrors beyond our comprehension, women and children and boys are shot by snipers, homes are destroyed, ethnic cleansing and racism is the rule; how can we NOT expect the Palestinians to fight against this menace by any means available?

Would I like armed struggle to include attacks on civilian targets? Of course not, but we must see the true cause: Zionist aggression. Historically, so-called "terrorism" has furthered the cause of the Palestinians: the PLO's actions in the 70's were practically the only outlet for opposition to Israel (this was when the Arab states had mostly capitulated to the imperialists and abandoned the Palestinians), so I disagree that it is counterproductive.

War is war, you are right, but the war of the imperialist is not the war of the oppressed. We, as supposed participants in class warfare, should understand this more than anyone else.


Large might be an overstatement. Its been split numerous times and been weakened a great deal by the growth of the Islamist resistance groups.

Agreed, but last I checked, it's still the second-largest organization in the PLO, which is quite significant. At any rate, Hamas and the PFLP usually work together when it comes to the militant side of things (again, last I checked, things might have changed). Perhaps a comrade from the region could clear this up for us.

[redguard2009]

Israeli's practice of punishing the families of alleged terrorists (re: freedom fighters) is quite ironic, isn't it? At a time when the West is lambasting fundamentalism in Islam for its archaic judicial practices (like mauling the genitals of prostitutes, lynching family members of those "not of the Quran") they're pumping billions into a government that sees absolutely nothing wrong with enacting extrajudiscial and more-often-than-not fatal justice in the most arbitrary and merciless manner imaginable.

Frankly, while I don't want to imagine the kind of bloodshed that would wash through the Jewish population of a dismantled and destroyed Israeli state, as time goes by I see less and less plausibility for a peaceful two-state coexistence and I'm starting to earnestly believe that the complete destruction of Israel (or atleast an overwhelming defeat and dismantlement) is the only solution and will be, in the long term, the less violent one.

[Yehuda Stern]

the Afrikaner community pushed its rulers toward ending apartheid; everyone knew it was unsustainable and they wanted a solution that didn't include their violent downfall. The same can (and will, IMO) happen in Israel

That might be true, but only because most of the Afrikaner ruling class realized that - like you said - sustaining Apartheid would be worse for their interests. The Afrikaners ended official Apartheid so that the economic dominance of the whites can be maintained. If you suggest that the same can happen in Israel, you may be right, but I fail to see how that would really be desirable for the workers.


the PLO's actions in the 70's were practically the only outlet for opposition to Israel (this was when the Arab states had mostly capitulated to the imperialists and abandoned the Palestinians), so I disagree that it is counterproductive.

On the one hand, this is true. And when Zionists tell me that all the Arabs understand is power, I point out to them that up to 1984, even the left Zionists refused to consider a Palestinian state. But Palestinian terrorism has sacrificed dozens of militants as cannon fodder and detached the Palestinian masses from the struggle in exchange for the empty words of the Zionist state and the imperialists. Was it really worth it, considering the fact that these acts also pushed Israelis more and more into the arms of Zionist reaction?


Agreed, but last I checked, it's still the second-largest organization in the PLO, which is quite significant.

Not really. The PFLP is a tiny group. I'm not really that sure that it's the second largest PLO member, but even if it is, that doesn't say much at a time when most Palestinians view Fatah as an agent of the imperialists.


At any rate, Hamas and the PFLP usually work together when it comes to the militant side of things

To an extent, but only since Israel started attacking the PFLP as well. In the civil war it was on the side of Fatah (Israel), and I doubt that they could stay away from them for too long. Besides, Hamas today is also becoming an agent of Israel. Allying up with them would not further the cause of Palestinian workers any more than an alliance with Fatah.

[progressive_lefty]

It's hard to escape from having such hate for Israel, in view of its consistent breaches of human rights and inability to make educated judgments. A man commits a terrible act with a bulldozer against Israel, Israel threatens to commit a terrible act with a bulldozer as retaliation. That last sentence could not more describe the situation in Israel/Palestine. Not forgetting that Israel is the occupier and Palestine the victim of a racist political ideology, a fact that is ignored by the West.
I want to be optimistic but I can't.

[conservativegenius]

You liberals are so stupid. Do you not realize that Palestinians are constantly encroaching on the rights of Israelis? Don't even start with the "sealing of land" nonsense. We all know that land was given to them. Why do liberals hate Israel and the Jews so damn much?

[progressive_lefty]

You liberals are so stupid. Do you not realize that Palestinians are constantly encroaching on the rights of Israelis? Don't even start with the "sealing of land" nonsense. We all know that land was given to them. Why do liberals hate Israel and the Jews so damn much?

Foolish.

Israel is a Western nation occupying Palestinian land in West Bank and Gaza. Israel controls Palestinian access to resources such as electricity and water. Israel controls the borders of Palestine, if you wish to visit West Bank and Gaza you have to go through Israeli immigration. But no we're told the Palestinians are 'encroaching' on the right of Israel. Like I said, foolish. For every innocent Israeli murdered by Terrorists, 3 innocent Palestinians will die on average. These are the facts, you cannot be so foolish as to say that Israel is the 'victim'.
Why hate the Jews so much? The facts above are the views of the left in Israel, from Haaretz, B'Tselem, Refuseniks, Olmert's own daughter.......

The biggest problem for Israel and 'the Jews' is misinformed extreme right-wingers who 'think' they are supporting Israel by denying the facts.

[Bilan]

You liberals are so stupid. Do you not realize that Palestinians are constantly encroaching on the rights of Israelis?

That's fucking stupid. Palestine is being occupied by Israel, and consistently violates the rights of the Palestinian people.
You're talking out ofy our arse.



Don't even start with the "sealing of land" nonsense. We all know that land was given to them.

Who was it given by, you dolt?
America and the UK, or Palastine?

It was stolen.




Why do liberals hate Israel and the Jews so damn much?

We're not liberals and we don't hate Jews. Stop spamming you loud mouth git.

[conservativegenius]

Alright assholes. Let's dance.

There has always been Israeli occupation in the territory now known as Israel. They tried to live side by side with the Palestinians, but the Palestinians were too racist and hateful to live with them peacefully. So, the Israelis had to fight back, and other governments realized what was going on, and sided with the good guys. The Israelis were given their own homeland, and the Palestinians were allowed to stay, but they refused to out of hatred. Now, the United States has an ally in the middle east, and liberals took issue with it. Why? Because a liberal cannot be reasoned with. Get your facts, you leftist apes.

[progressive_lefty]

Alright assholes. Let's dance.

There has always been Israeli occupation in the territory now known as Israel. They tried to live side by side with the Palestinians, but they were too racist and hateful to live with them peacefully. So, they had to fight back, and other governments realized what was going on, and sided with the good guys. The Israelis were given their own homeland, and the Palestinians were allowed to stay, but they refused to out of hatred. Get your facts.

lol I'm guessing your citing Joan Peters there?

Your doing the pro-Israel cause no favors. One just has to look at your grammar.

[Plagueround]

Alright assholes. Let's dance.

There has always been Israeli occupation in the territory now known as Israel. They tried to live side by side with the Palestinians, but the Palestinians were too racist and hateful to live with them peacefully. So, the Israelis had to fight back, and other governments realized what was going on, and sided with the good guys. The Israelis were given their own homeland, and the Palestinians were allowed to stay, but they refused to out of hatred.

Do you get your history from the Big Neo-Con Pop-Up Book of Lies? I don't take either side in this issue, but the POV you've presented is laughable.


Now, the United States has an ally in the middle east, and liberals took issue with it. Why? Because a liberal cannot be reasoned with. Get your facts. Has Ann Coulter found revleft?

[conservativegenius]

lol I'm guessing your citing Joan Peters there?

Your doing the pro-Israel cause no favors. One just has to look at your grammar.

You aren't getting away that easy. Defend your stupid position. Attacking my grammar proves nothing, and you know it. I took nothing from Joan Peters.

Also, you're one to criticize grammar. "your citing Joan Peters". Shut up.

^^^ In response to your ninja post, I actually hate Ann Coulter, and find her to be a crazy *****. Stay on topic, leftist ape. Try to go against your savage mongoloid instincts and tendencies and fight back. ^^^

[progressive_lefty]

Has Ann Coulter found revleft?

lol. Maybe so haa.


You aren't getting away that easy. Defend your stupid position. Attacking my grammar proves nothing, and you know it. I took nothing from Joan Peters.

Do you know who Joan Peters is? It's funny because, you pretty much wrote word for word from passages in her book 'From Time Immemorial'.

It's funny how extreme conservatives engage in ad hominem during discussion on Israel/Palestine, it's as if they're trying to hide away from the facts and the truth. That wouldn't be so would it?

[Plagueround]

You aren't getting away that easy. Defend your stupid position. Attacking my grammar proves nothing, and you know it. I took nothing from Joan Peters.

^^^ In response to your ninja post, I actually hate Ann Coulter, and find her to be a crazy *****. Stay on topic, leftist ape. Try to go against your savage mongoloid instincts and tendencies and fight back. ^^^

Ninja post? I didn't do anything stealthy or sneaky when posting, but I have been brushing up on my stealth assassin routine in between posts, so thanks? :laugh:

Remind me what the topic is again? You're trying to make sense of a conflict so old it predates the bible, a conflict recently fueled by the economic interests of western countries, and you want me to choose a position you've predetermined for me because you came to this site hoping to troll some "liberals"...All the while prodding me with insults I've haven't heard since I got out of school? You sir deserve a medal.

[conservativegenius]

lol. Maybe so haa.



Do you know who Joan Peters is? It's funny because, you pretty much wrote word for word from passages in her book 'From Time Immemorial'.

It's funny how extreme conservatives engage in ad hominem during discussion on Israel/Palestine, it's as if they're trying to hide away from the facts and the truth. That wouldn't be so would it?

No, I hadn't even heard of Joan Peters until you mentioned her. Now cut the bullshit and actually refute my arguments, if you can.

^^^ Ninja poster strikes again. Predates the bible? This happened 50 fucking years ago, numbnuts! ^^^

[Plagueround]

No, I hadn't even heard of Joan Peters until you mentioned her. Now cut the bullshit and actually refute my arguments, if you can.

^^^ Ninja poster strikes again. Predates the bible? This happened 50 fucking years ago, numbnuts! ^^^

Read what I wrote again...real slowly so it makes sense to you. Then reply.

[conservativegenius]

Read what I wrote again...real slowly so it makes sense to you. Then reply.

Done. Now rewrite it as though you have a basic understanding of the English language.

[Plagueround]

Done. Now rewrite it as though you have a basic understanding of the English language.

You're really grasping for insults now. There isn't really anything wrong with what I wrote. I tend to write in an informal "conversation" style manner on forums. Besides, what if English wasn't my first language? This IS an international forum.

[conservativegenius]

You're really grasping for insults now. There isn't really anything wrong with what I wrote. I tend to write in an informal "conversation" style manner on forums. Besides, what if English wasn't my first language? This IS an international forum.

Wow. I give a fuck. Rewrite it so I have a clue what the fuck kind of stupid concept you are trying to communicate to me.

[Plagueround]

Wow. I give a fuck. Rewrite it so I have a clue what the fuck kind of stupid concept you are trying to communicate to me.

You're an angry person. If you honestly can't figure it out I feel badly for you...but I'll break it down for you.


"Remind me what the topic is again?" <---I have no idea what you're ranting about. You make as much sense as Rush Limbaugh and you're about as open minded as he is.

"You're trying to make sense of a conflict so old it predates the bible"<--Israel and Palastine have had conflicts since recorded history.

"a conflict recently fueled by the economic interests of western countries"<-- This is the conflict you speak of that escalated about 60 years ago.

"and you want me to choose a position you've predetermined for me because you came to this site hoping to troll some "liberals"...All the while prodding me with insults I've haven't heard since I got out of school? You sir deserve a medal."<---I don't really choose a position on the matter because I don't think the answer is to blindly back either side, something you've done by labeling Palestinians as racist and hateful. I also think you deserve a medal for managing to live this long...statistically something should have killed you, like an electrical socket.

[conservativegenius]

The topic is that you liberals love to hate Jews and I want to know why.

Yes, they have had problems before. What does this add to your argument?

Yes, this escalated around 60 years ago. I said that, you said that, and it's true.

I don't want you to choose anything, but I hope you choose what is right.

I don't get what you were trying to prove in any part of this question.

[Decolonize The Left]

There is vastly too much confusion in the minds of both Israelis and Palestinians to approach this situation with any notion of calm understanding. Once religion has been drawn into the debate as justification, we have dug a hole much too large to crawl out of with our hands clean. The land belongs to no one, though all make claims to it. Neither side is justified in its wanton fundamentalist destruction - though there is much justification in many of the demands of the Palestinians.

Violence begets violence and cannot bring peace. It could not be simpler, and so vastly difficult. It is a very sad situation indeed.

- August

[conservativegenius]

There is vastly too much confusion in the minds of both Israelis and Palestinians to approach this situation with any notion of calm understanding. Once religion has been drawn into the debate as justification, we have dug a hole much too large to crawl out of with our hands clean. The land belongs to no one, though all make claims to it. Neither side is justified in its wanton fundamentalist destruction - though there is much justification in many of the demands of the Palestinians.

Violence begets violence and cannot bring peace. It could not be simpler, and so vastly difficult. It is a very sad situation indeed.

- August

Shut the fuck up, pacifist!

What I mean by this is that the land is Israel, and filthy arabs can live there if they are ready to be nice.

[Bilan]

The topic is that you liberals love to hate Jews and I want to know why.

No, it isn't. Read the original post.
And for the last time, fuck off, this is not liberals. IF you pride yourself on language so much, practice it.
What is this site called?
Do you know the difference between revolutionary leftists and liberals?

If you shut the fuck up for one minute, and actually bothered to look up why there is opposition to Israel - now lets make that clear: Israel, not Jews. Israel - you'd have the answer slap you in the face (Well deserved).

[Qwerty Dvorak]

The topic is that you liberals love to hate Jews and I want to know why.

Yes, they have had problems before. What does this add to your argument?

Yes, this escalated around 60 years ago. I said that, you said that, and it's true.

I don't want you to choose anything, but I hope you choose what is right.

I don't get what you were trying to prove in any part of this question.
lol idiot

[conservativegenius]

No, it isn't. Read the original post.
And for the last time, fuck off, this is not liberals. IF you pride yourself on language so much, practice it.
What is this site called?
Do you know the difference between revolutionary leftists and liberals?

If you shut the fuck up for one minute, and actually bothered to look up why there is opposition to Israel - now lets make that clear: Israel, not Jews. Israel - you'd have the answer slap you in the face (Well deserved).

Fine then. Explain to me the difference between the revolutionary leftist movement and liberals. I don't want your life story, just a short explanation so we're all clear.

[Decolonize The Left]

No, it isn't. Read the original post.
And for the last time, fuck off, this is not liberals. IF you pride yourself on language so much, practice it.
What is this site called?
Do you know the difference between revolutionary leftists and liberals?

If you shut the fuck up for one minute, and actually bothered to look up why there is opposition to Israel - now lets make that clear: Israel, not Jews. Israel - you'd have the answer slap you in the face (Well deserved).

I really don't think antagonizing our reactionary fellow will help the situation - this person is obviously not interested in having any sort of discussion or dialogue, rather is only looking to spark conflict and see their words on a web page.

- August

[conservativegenius]

I really don't think antagonizing our reactionary fellow will help the situation - this person is obviously not interested in having any sort of discussion or dialogue, rather is only looking to spark conflict and see their words on a web page.

- August

Stupid asshole, I'm the only one in here interested in having a discussion. Everyone else is using savage liberal leftist diversionary tactics.

[progressive_lefty]

The topic is that you liberals love to hate Jews and I want to know why.

Yes, they have had problems before. What does this add to your argument?

Yes, this escalated around 60 years ago. I said that, you said that, and it's true.

I don't want you to choose anything, but I hope you choose what is right.

I don't get what you were trying to prove in any part of this question.

Very common trait of the pro-Israel extreme right, engage in adhominem and then cry 'anti-semitism', while avoiding the debate and the facts. Like I said this does no favors to Israel if you are pro-Israel.

If you ever watch any of Norman Finkelstein's lectures on Israel/Palestine (there's loads on google video), the Questions at the end, always has pro-Israel nuts saying 'do you rape your nieces for being Jewish?', or 'how long have you denied the Holocaust?'. Avoiding the debate, rather then providing an educated objective question about the conflict in the Middle East.

When I talk about facts, I talk about UN Resolutions, Human Rights reports so on.. No rational thinking person could sympathise with Israel, when it occupies the other side's land, culture, movement, resources..

[Malakangga]

ah,i don't care about Israel. Freedom for Palestine !!! :mad:

[manic expression]

Alright assholes. Let's dance.

There has always been Israeli occupation in the territory now known as Israel. They tried to live side by side with the Palestinians, but the Palestinians were too racist and hateful to live with them peacefully. So, the Israelis had to fight back, and other governments realized what was going on, and sided with the good guys. The Israelis were given their own homeland, and the Palestinians were allowed to stay, but they refused to out of hatred. Now, the United States has an ally in the middle east, and liberals took issue with it. Why? Because a liberal cannot be reasoned with. Get your facts, you leftist apes.

I think that's the sound of stupidity coming our way.

The Zionists never tried to live peacefully "side by side" with the Palestinians. Even before the founding of the Zionist state, terrorist attacks were carried out against Palestinian and British targets, including the King David Hotel Bombing which murdered hundreds of innocent people. Prior to the terrorism of the Irgun and other Zionist groups, the Zionists had evicted Palestinians from their homes by using leftover laws from the Ottoman Empire. The Zionist project, from its inception, was one of aggression and belligerence, and anyone with half a brain knows that.

The Israelis did not fight back anything, they made the first blows. In 1948, the Zionists carried out a campaign of ethnic cleansing, massacring entire villages and intimidating the Palestinian population into fleeing. This forced explusion from their lands is still known as "al-Nakba", or "the Catastrophe". So no, Palestinians have ALWAYS wanted to live on the land that belongs to them and their families, but the racist Israelis have continuously crushed this desire.

And, if you weren't so idiotic, you'd know that the CENTRAL demand of the pro-Palestinian movement is RIGHT OF RETURN. The Palestinians want to live peacefully in the land occupied by Israel, it is Israel that is perpetuating the conflict.

Israel continued to push its policy of racist expansion: in 1967, it made an unprovoked attack against Egypt and the surrounding Arab nations, further exposing the Zionist imperialists as the racist criminals they were and are today. Furthermore, Israel still occupies land it took in the series of conflicts that followed (the Golan Heights, the West Bank, the Gaza borders). The Zionist invasions of Lebanon, first in the 1980's and later in 2006, serve as even more evidence of the racist nature of the Israeli state. As if that wasn't enough, Israeli troops knowingly slaughtered thousands of Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila camp massacres.

Lastly, we're not liberals, and the fact that you THINK us liberals shows how completely full of sh*t you really are. Maybe if you knew the first thing about ideology you might get somewhere, but then again, you're just like every other two-bit right-wing blowhard who knows absolutely nothing about the world he wants to dominate. Have fun believing in your little Zionist fairy-tale, it might make you feel better about being a bigoted slimebag.

[Colonello Buendia]

Palestine was "given" to the zionists by an anti semite who wanted all the jews out of Europe. Arthur Balfour sidelined the newly liberated palestinians and tried to get all the jews out. so it's not us who are the anti semites, it's the supporters of zionism. the main arrivals in 1948 went to Palestine because they were refused asylum in Europe and no one let them in.

[bcbm]

Yes, it can mean that, although it is certainly a tragedy in many ways. The Palestinian population is subjected to daily terrors beyond our comprehension, women and children and boys are shot by snipers, homes are destroyed, ethnic cleansing and racism is the rule; how can we NOT expect the Palestinians to fight against this menace by any means available?

I am well aware of the situation in Palestine, I've been a solidarity activist for the past five years. As I said, I understand completely why this things happen- desperation and hopelessness lead to terrible things. But, of course, those who are desperate and carry them out are not doing so entirely on their own. They are recruited, trained and perhaps even manipulated by larger organizations (Hamas, et al) to carry out this work in a very planned, methodical way. I have a problem with that. Desperate lashings out, as this one with the bulldozer, are one thing. The methodical exploitation of desperation by those not willing to stick out their own necks is another entirely. I'm glad that the suicide attacks have been stepped down in recent years (I figured this would come out of the forced respectability of government for Hamas), but I think a tactical rethinking should have been done years ago. It was always clear the suicide attacks were not helping.


Would I like armed struggle to include attacks on civilian targets? Of course not, but we must see the true cause: Zionist aggression.

People are still responsible for their own actions.


Historically, so-called "terrorism" has furthered the cause of the Palestinians: the PLO's actions in the 70's were practically the only outlet for opposition to Israel (this was when the Arab states had mostly capitulated to the imperialists and abandoned the Palestinians), so I disagree that it is counterproductive.

That was the 70's, and hijacking jets is something else entirely. Of course, when it came to things like shooting up Lod airport and the like, those acts were completely reprehensible as well and has no purpose.


War is war, you are right, but the war of the imperialist is not the war of the oppressed. We, as supposed participants in class warfare, should understand this more than anyone else.

That they are monsters to us is not a reason to become monsters ourselves.

[manic expression]

I am well aware of the situation in Palestine, I've been a solidarity activist for the past five years. As I said, I understand completely why this things happen- desperation and hopelessness lead to terrible things. But, of course, those who are desperate and carry them out are not doing so entirely on their own. They are recruited, trained and perhaps even manipulated by larger organizations (Hamas, et al) to carry out this work in a very planned, methodical way. I have a problem with that. Desperate lashings out, as this one with the bulldozer, are one thing. The methodical exploitation of desperation by those not willing to stick out their own necks is another entirely. I'm glad that the suicide attacks have been stepped down in recent years (I figured this would come out of the forced respectability of government for Hamas), but I think a tactical rethinking should have been done years ago. It was always clear the suicide attacks were not helping.

Understood. However, I don't find Hamas and other groups to be exploiting desperate people, I find them to be trying their best to fight a desperate situation, and what do desperate situations call for? Palestinian groups don't exist in a vacuum, they are the result of what Palestine finds itself in, and so it is impossible to view them as exploiting other people's hopelessness when they are the only hope there is.

And I think the different groups have shifted from suicide bombings to mortars and defensive maneuvers in the past few years. At the same time, we have to remember that Israel is occupying Palestinian land, and that they are doing whatever they can to fight this menace. Even if you find it uncomfortable, and I often do as well, you cannot argue with its important place in the armed struggle. Israel will never voluntarily move an inch, every victory must be won with force.


People are still responsible for their own actions.

And they take responsibility for those actions when they carry them out. The question we must ask ourselves is why they carry them out. The violence of Zionist imperialism can only be met by violence by the oppressed. If you agree with the notion of class warfare, you can see the validity in the notion of anti-imperialist struggle as well.


That was the 70's, and hijacking jets is something else entirely. Of course, when it came to things like shooting up Lod airport and the like, those acts were completely reprehensible as well and has no purpose.

War is always reprehensible, but it can be necessary. Beyond that, you are right that some of the actions were ill-advised and detrimental, but many of them were not. The actions of the PLO during that time served to further the cause of the Palestinian people, and I think the (precious few) gains they have won (marginal sovereignty, marginal control of Gaza, etc.) are proof of this. They did not come easy, they had to force back the Zionists with any means necessary.


That they are monsters to us is not a reason to become monsters ourselves.

You are not a monster if you fight a monster.

[bcbm]

Understood. However, I don't find Hamas and other groups to be exploiting desperate people, I find them to be trying their best to fight a desperate situation, and what do desperate situations call for? Palestinian groups don't exist in a vacuum, they are the result of what Palestine finds itself in, and so it is impossible to view them as exploiting other people's hopelessness when they are the only hope there is.

They take the desperation and hopelessness and manipulate it until young kids, people with families and others are willing to blow themselves up in a crowd of people who have done nothing to them to achieve nothing or next to nothing. It only furthers the propaganda ends of those pushing them to it, because as a strategy for resistance it is an absolute failure. The current occupation is not at all on par with what occurred in Lebanon, where suicide tactics were developed, nor is their application here at all similar. You don't think there are productive resistance methods that could be pursued by these desperate people? I think people with such commitment are more valuable alive and working to build something than splattered across a road.


At the same time, we have to remember that Israel is occupying Palestinian land, and that they are doing whatever they can to fight this menace. Even if you find it uncomfortable, and I often do as well, you cannot argue with its important place in the armed struggle. Israel will never voluntarily move an inch, every victory must be won with force.

I can and certainly will argue its place in the armed struggle. It is not an important part of that struggle, it is a tactical and theoretical burden that only makes itself more of a problem every time it is undertaken. The only movements that have been won through the force of suicide blasts are the movement of Israeli bulldozers over more people's homes, the building of the separation barrier, the theft of more land, the killing of more people, etc, etc. Not to mention the position it puts the Israeli liberals and left in- people that have an important part in the struggle, like it or not.


And they take responsibility for those actions when they carry them out. The question we must ask ourselves is why they carry them out. The violence of Zionist imperialism can only be met by violence by the oppressed. If you agree with the notion of class warfare, you can see the validity in the notion of anti-imperialist struggle as well.

I am not arguing against violence. I am arguing against a specific tactic of violence.


War is always reprehensible, but it can be necessary. Beyond that, you are right that some of the actions were ill-advised and detrimental, but many of them were not. The actions of the PLO during that time served to further the cause of the Palestinian people, and I think the (precious few) gains they have won (marginal sovereignty, marginal control of Gaza, etc.) are proof of this. They did not come easy, they had to force back the Zionists with any means necessary.

The intifada was what pushed things forward and won many of those gains. Why? Because it saw the majority of Palestinian people in open revolt against Israel. The initial one was especially effective as Israeli still relied on Palestinians for cheap labor within Israel, allowing them to paralyze a number of industries. Suicide tactics and other methods aimed at completely civilian targets have had a reverse effect, pushing Israel to take more land, kill more people, etc. This is why I think sending people to die is fruitless. It is better to build towards massive actions that can completely disrupt the situation and force the hand of the occupiers. Any number of historical anti-imperialist struggles show that this is more important than minority armed actions.


You are not a monster if you fight a monster.

Monsters often fight each other. Read some of the documents from those involved in the terrorist movements of the 70's who disassociated. They clearly spell out the mentality that evolves when one is separated from the struggle on the ground and goes down the path of spectacular terrorism, and it certainly is monstrous.

[manic expression]

They take the desperation and hopelessness and manipulate it until young kids, people with families and others are willing to blow themselves up in a crowd of people who have done nothing to them to achieve nothing or next to nothing.

It's not necessary to "manipulate" anything, Israel has created its own enemies. That's basically what I'm saying.


It only furthers the propaganda ends of those pushing them to it, because as a strategy for resistance it is an absolute failure. The current occupation is not at all on par with what occurred in Lebanon, where suicide tactics were developed, nor is their application here at all similar. You don't think there are productive resistance methods that could be pursued by these desperate people? I think people with such commitment are more valuable alive and working to build something than splattered across a road.What "productive resistance methods" would you suggest? By any real measure, the armed struggle is the only option.

Secondly, the armed struggle HAS been successful. The Zionists were forced out of Gaza, which is a positive step; every act of aggression is met with a response from the Palestinian people. They have done VERY well for themselves given the circumstances and the absolutely terrifying enemy they're up against.


I can and certainly will argue its place in the armed struggle. It is not an important part of that struggle, it is a tactical and theoretical burden that only makes itself more of a problem every time it is undertaken.Can you back this up?


The only movements that have been won through the force of suicide blasts are the movement of Israeli bulldozers over more people's homes, the building of the separation barrier, the theft of more land, the killing of more people, etc, etc. Not to mention the position it puts the Israeli liberals and left in- people that have an important part in the struggle, like it or not.Wrong. Those acts were done due to Zionist policy. If Israelis wanted peace, they could have it in an instant, but the Israeli ruling class continues to pursue the expansion of its racist policies.

The Israeli liberals have done nothing to help Palestinians. They paid lip-service to "peace", but did they take into account ANY of the Palestinians' demands? Nope. They're at fault for any uncomfortable position they may find themselves in today, because they proved utterly incapable of respecting Palestinian wishes when they had the chance (the 90's).


I am not arguing against violence. I am arguing against a specific tactic of violence.Which is?


The intifada was what pushed things forward and won many of those gains. Why? Because it saw the majority of Palestinian people in open revolt against Israel. The initial one was especially effective as Israeli still relied on Palestinians for cheap labor within Israel, allowing them to paralyze a number of industries. Suicide tactics and other methods aimed at completely civilian targets have had a reverse effect, pushing Israel to take more land, kill more people, etc. This is why I think sending people to die is fruitless. It is better to build towards massive actions that can completely disrupt the situation and force the hand of the occupiers. Any number of historical anti-imperialist struggles show that this is more important than minority armed actions.That's the whole point. The original article outlined the Israeli imperialists' fears that this would be the start of a new uprising.

Suicide tactics served a purpose that isn't even there anymore, which is why the suicide bombings aren't being pursued anymore. This attack doesn't even fit in the category that you're setting up.


Monsters often fight each other. Read some of the documents from those involved in the terrorist movements of the 70's who disassociated. They clearly spell out the mentality that evolves when one is separated from the struggle on the ground and goes down the path of spectacular terrorism, and it certainly is monstrous.The PLO was a "monster" in the 70's? Come on, don't even try that. The PLO's actions in the 70's were very important to the wider Palestinian struggle, as every other avenue had been closed following the 1973 war.

To clarify, I'm saying that suicide bombings have no real purpose anymore, and I do believe the Palestinians agree with me, because this was not a planned suicide bombing (there haven't been any for some time). All I'm arguing is that suicide bombings had a wider context which made them more than just the work of "monsters". Does that make sense?

[bcbm]

It's not necessary to "manipulate" anything, Israel has created its own enemies. That's basically what I'm saying.

Which is not at all the opposite of what I am saying. I am saying that, of course, it is Israeli actions that make people desperate, etc and certain factions manipulate their anger in ways that aren't particularly productive- except for them.


What "productive resistance methods" would you suggest? By any real measure, the armed struggle is the only option.

Secondly, the armed struggle HAS been successful. The Zionists were forced out of Gaza, which is a positive step; every act of aggression is met with a response from the Palestinian people. They have done VERY well for themselves given the circumstances and the absolutely terrifying enemy they're up against.


I have never been critiquing the armed struggle as a whole, merely the aspects of it that target purely civilian populations. So these comments are moot.

As for productive resistance strategies, furthering mass movements beyond the armed struggle- specifically those targeting economic resources. Palestine has a large population of illegal factory workers. Imagine if they were able to shut down that industry there.


The Israeli liberals have done nothing to help Palestinians. They paid lip-service to "peace", but did they take into account ANY of the Palestinians' demands? Nope. They're at fault for any uncomfortable position they may find themselves in today, because they proved utterly incapable of respecting Palestinian wishes when they had the chance (the 90's).

Zionist expansion policy was fueled by the suicide attacks and they played off the threat to steal and destroy even more. What response can the left give? Who wants to support suicide bombings? It made the position much more difficult. Of course, as you say, this is rather irrelevant now, but continuing the strategies of the intifada or more economic attacks would've made more sense than senseless murder.


The PLO was a "monster" in the 70's? Come on, don't even try that. The PLO's actions in the 70's were very important to the wider Palestinian struggle, as every other avenue had been closed following the 1973 war.

Yeah, murdering the Olympic Athletes was the only option left. Or opening fire on people in Lod Airport. Or any number of other atrocities carried out through the PLO, Black September, PFLP, RAF and the Carlos group. Come on. Certainly some of their tactics were innovative and proved very useful- plane hijackings for instance. But just murdering random people for being Israeli (or not even)? That's not a leftist mentality. Bommi Bauman, I think, goes into it rather in depeth in his book. As do a few of the other RAF disassociates.


To clarify, I'm saying that suicide bombings have no real purpose anymore, and I do believe the Palestinians agree with me, because this was not a planned suicide bombing (there haven't been any for some time). All I'm arguing is that suicide bombings had a wider context which made them more than just the work of "monsters". Does that make sense?

Yes, of course. I don't entirely disagree. I recognize there is a very wide context around them involving all sorts of horrors done by Israel. I simply think that people are being manipulated into killing themselves by the bureaucrats of groups like Hamas, PFLP, etc primarily for propaganda purposes and as a simple show of strength, not for real tactical goals.

[manic expression]

Which is not at all the opposite of what I am saying. I am saying that, of course, it is Israeli actions that make people desperate, etc and certain factions manipulate their anger in ways that aren't particularly productive- except for them.

Well, I disagree on the point that the Palestinian groups somehow reap benefits from such things. If anything, they get targeted more. And seeing as how the suicide attacks have mostly stopped, wouldn't that indicate a tactical shift, not a shift in interests?


I have never been critiquing the armed struggle as a whole, merely the aspects of it that target purely civilian populations. So these comments are moot.

I understand.


As for productive resistance strategies, furthering mass movements beyond the armed struggle- specifically those targeting economic resources. Palestine has a large population of illegal factory workers. Imagine if they were able to shut down that industry there.

Yes, I agree, but remember that Palestinians are living in prison. An economic strike would be interesting to say the very least, but I'm not sure what the details would entail.


Zionist expansion policy was fueled by the suicide attacks and they played off the threat to steal and destroy even more. What response can the left give? Who wants to support suicide bombings? It made the position much more difficult. Of course, as you say, this is rather irrelevant now, but continuing the strategies of the intifada or more economic attacks would've made more sense than senseless murder.

No, Zionist expansion predated the first suicide bomb IMO. They turned to suicide attacks and "terrorism" because the Arab states had abandoned them and Israel was the unrivalled power in the region. The left's job is to continuously pinpoint the real roots of the entire struggle: Zionist imperialism.

And yes, intifada is more desirable, but everything has its context, no?


Yeah, murdering the Olympic Athletes was the only option left. Or opening fire on people in Lod Airport. Or any number of other atrocities carried out through the PLO, Black September, PFLP, RAF and the Carlos group. Come on. Certainly some of their tactics were innovative and proved very useful- plane hijackings for instance. But just murdering random people for being Israeli (or not even)? That's not a leftist mentality. Bommi Bauman, I think, goes into it rather in depeth in his book. As do a few of the other RAF disassociates.

Just to be clear, are we talking about all such groups or just Palestinian organizations? I would compare it more to the IRA: the attacks that killed civilians were certainly tragedies, but the real root was imperialism in that case as well. And I do think that the alternatives for the PLO were slim to none: Israel had won complete domination of the region and no one could challenge it in any other way.

By the way, I think we are both giving the PLO too little credit for what it did outside of those actions. The PLO was quite active in garnering support and supplying information about Israeli oppression during those years as well.


Yes, of course. I don't entirely disagree. I recognize there is a very wide context around them involving all sorts of horrors done by Israel. I simply think that people are being manipulated into killing themselves by the bureaucrats of groups like Hamas, PFLP, etc primarily for propaganda purposes and as a simple show of strength, not for real tactical goals.

OK, I find that reasonable. I am simply skeptical of how "bureaucratic" Hamas or the PFLP really is, and I think that is the point of disagreement.

[bcbm]

No, Zionist expansion predated the first suicide bomb IMO. They turned to suicide attacks and "terrorism" because the Arab states had abandoned them and Israel was the unrivalled power in the region. The left's job is to continuously pinpoint the real roots of the entire struggle: Zionist imperialism.

And yes, intifada is more desirable, but everything has its context, no?

The first suicide bombing came in 1994 in response to an Israeli extremist launching a more-or-less suicide attack against a mosque, following some interactions between Hamas and Hezbollah in Lebanon, if I recall correctly. "Our innocents for yours" or something along that line... which quickly spiraled into absurdity. Of course Zionist imperialism is the real issue here, but that doesn't mean we should be completely uncritical of how resistance manifests itself.


Just to be clear, are we talking about all such groups or just Palestinian organizations? I would compare it more to the IRA: the attacks that killed civilians were certainly tragedies, but the real root was imperialism in that case as well. And I do think that the alternatives for the PLO were slim to none: Israel had won complete domination of the region and no one could challenge it in any other way.

I think that both groups were able to wage purely military campaigns or at least undertake actions where civilians were not killed suggests they had other options. But terrorist existence leads to its own logic and so the actions become more violent and more disgusting. Its the spectacular mentality.


By the way, I think we are both giving the PLO too little credit for what it did outside of those actions. The PLO was quite active in garnering support and supplying information about Israeli oppression during those years as well.

Of course.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Zionist expansion policy was fueled by the suicide attacks and they played off the threat to steal and destroy even more. What response can the left give? Who wants to support suicide bombings? It made the position much more difficult. Of course, as you say, this is rather irrelevant now, but continuing the strategies of the intifada or more economic attacks would've made more sense than senseless murder.This is bullshit.

This reminds me of how chapters of the NAACP at the height of the boycotts, sit-ins, freedom rides against segregation proposed using 'nonviolent' tactics (even though they armed students as an act of 'self-defense') since violence would "delegitimatize" the civil right's movement. What they all learned, with three SNCC workers being killed execution-style and buried in a swamp, was that it didn't matter if they were church children or young students. They were going to kill whoever no matter what. The Israelis, likewise, do not need a reason to justify their occupation. In fact, the suicide bombings are a direct response of the occupation, not the cause of it.

It's not our duty, as revolutionaries from the West, to tell the Palestinian people how to wage their war. In fact, it's not up to anyone (no matter how 'communist' or 'anarchist' they are), but the Palestinians to decide what is 'legitimate' in terms of their armed resistance to the Israelis. As a tactic that is subordinated to a wider military strategy, it has been successful - part of the recent 'cease-fire' that allowed medical supplies and humanitarian aid back into Gaza was the demand to end firing rockets into southern Israel. It was, in other words, a trading chip that stopped the wider terror in the territories. As so, the only real criticism that we should have is not whether suicide bombings are 'moral' or not, but if it's truly tactically successful.

[Decolonize The Left]

This is bullshit.
It's not our duty, as revolutionaries from the West, to tell the Palestinian people how to wage their war. In fact, it's not up to anyone (no matter how 'communist' or 'anarchist' they are), but the Palestinians to decide what is 'legitimate' in terms of their armed resistance to the Israelis. As a tactic that is subordinated to a wider military strategy, it has been successful - part of the recent 'cease-fire' that allowed medical supplies and humanitarian aid back into Gaza was the demand to end firing rockets into southern Israel. It was, in other words, a trading chip that started the wider terror in the territories. As so, the only real criticism that we should have is not whether suicide bombings are 'moral' or not, but if it's truly tactically successful.

Well put.

- August

[black magick hustla]

It's not our duty, as revolutionaries from the West, to tell the Palestinian people how to wage their war. In fact, it's not up to anyone (no matter how 'communist' or 'anarchist' they are), but the Palestinians to decide what is 'legitimate' in terms of their armed resistance to the Israelis. As a tactic that is subordinated to a wider military strategy, it has been successful - part of the recent 'cease-fire' that allowed medical supplies and humanitarian aid back into Gaza was the demand to end firing rockets into southern Israel. It was, in other words, a trading chip that stopped the wider terror in the territories. As so, the only real criticism that we should have is not whether suicide bombings are 'moral' or not, but if it's truly tactically successful.

This is liberal garbage.

Its not a question of telling them how to "wage their war", but obviously we communists have our own positions as communists and we are not going to make them more loose in the name of a democratic principle. Class struggle is not murdering random israeli civilians. Its a shame the palestinian working class is too weak to hold independent positions from the national bourgeosie and petty-bourgeosie but its not our duty to loose up our positions just because the state of the working class is very weak right now.

[Labor Shall Rule]

This is liberal garbage.

Its not a question of telling them how to "wage their war", but obviously we communists have our own positions as communists and we are not going to make them more loose in the name of a democratic principle. Class struggle is not murdering random israeli civilians. Its a shame the palestinian working class is too weak to hold independent positions from the national bourgeosie and petty-bourgeosie but its not our duty to loose up our positions just because the state of the working class is very weak right now.

That's funny - 'class struggle' in Palestine. Certainly, among those that are employed (specifically the illegal factory workers that Superstar refered to), capitalism exists. But no indigenous industry exists, which means, in turn, that the exploitation of wage-labor is largely absent also. Palestine is, as I said in another thread, a 'jail'; a Bantustan where the dispossessed are tucked under. They could all die tommorrow, and Israeli profits would not take a sizeable drop. In fact, it'd be preferable if they all die - the expansionist nature of Tel-Aviv shows that the more Eastern European emigrants in the territories, the better. Thus, Palestinian labor is used in more or less equal transactions that keep internal functions of the prison-state going - Palestinian labor largely being consumed by other Palestinians for sustenance. A 'strike' would hurt them.

If you've ever asked the 'why' and 'how' (as a Marxist should do) to understand how Hamas or other bourgeois-nationalist forces head to the forefront of the national and class struggle of the Palestinians, you'd interpet the objective situation differently.

[Devrim]

That's funny - 'class struggle' in Palestine.



If you've ever asked the 'why' and 'how' (as a Marxist should do) to understand how Hamas or other bourgeois-nationalist forces head to the forefront of the national and class struggle of the Palestinians, ...

First you mock the idea of class struggle in Palestine, and then you say that 'Hamas or other bourgeois-nationalist forces' are at the forefront of it.

Actually, the last time there were big strikes in Palestine, HAMAS denounced them as being against the national interests, and called on workers to scab.

Devrim

[Labor Shall Rule]

Does 'class' struggle leave out the nascent bourgeois class?

What Palestine needs is a qualitative leap in accumulation, in which there is the electrifying of their pool of labor, while reinvesting their surplus into furthering the productive forces. It is a necessary bourgeois task that modifies and revolutionizes agriculture, while taking leaps in indigenous light and heavy industry. Today, the Israelis either appropriate that surplus, or it's not even taken advantage of due to the colonial aims of the Jewish ruling class to completely submerse Arab Palestine.

Marx would (most likely) agree with this.


"The Indian will not reap the fruits of the new elements of society (with capitalist property and social relations) scattered among them by the British bourgeoisie, till in Great Britain itself the new ruling classes shall have been supplanted by the industrial proletariat, or till the Hindus themselves shall have grown strong enough to throw off the English yoke altogether."They (as in the Arab paupers and workers) adore Hamas, not because they are 'stupid' or 'unconscious', but because all classes are not able to raise up the productive forces to meet their wider material needs unless a strong anti-imperialist group can expel the Israeli colonizer.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Are you ultra-lefts going to do work, or did I type that for nothing?

[Yehuda Stern]

What do you want us to say? Your claim is that since Palestine isn't fully developed economically, the class struggle cannot exist there. While you are right that this reality retards the class struggle, it doesn't prevent it. In this case it's just an excuse for supporting the Palestinian bourgeoisie. And if you're expecting the national bourgeoisie to develop the Palestinian economy, then you're a reformist, not a revolutionary.

[Labor Shall Rule]

How is it 'reformist'? The tumultuous events in Russia proved that bourgeois revolutions are often only possible through the broadest participation and leadership of several oppressed and exploited classes. The last fifty years have shown that global capitalism is still in a period of growth - with the rise of finance capital and it's imperialist stretch around the world, developmental contradictions prevented the rise of 'third world' states, and in some geographical areas, the last vestiges of feudalism (or social forms that closely resemble it) clearly remain.

The cornerstone of historical materialist thought, which was advanced b Lenin, shows that the material conditions were insanely unripe, so socialism was impossible in Russia. In Palestine, it is also clearly impossible. Every attendee of a Mosque from Gaza to Bethlehem could be emersed in Marxist thought, could be active in every worker committee meeting, and could hang red banners in every street and refugee camp there is, but since they are materially behind, any 'revolution' would have the aims of making Palestine a larger capitalist power.

Palestinian workers have the power to undermine Israeli workers’ privilege and thereby break the imperialists’ stranglehold over Israeli working class politics, moving forward to proletarian internationalism. But they do not and they can not have socialism unless there is industrial development, land reform, and other radical bourgeois leaps. It'd might 'look better' in 'principle' to have a Palestinian 'socialist' or 'communist' party lead that struggle, but in terms of national development, the obligations of any 'left' or 'Islamist' party would be to carry out a bourgeois revolution over a genuinely socialist one

[Yehuda Stern]

The tumultuous events in Russia proved that bourgeois revolutions are often only possible through the broadest participation and leadership of several oppressed and exploited classes.

What the "tumultuous events in Russia" proved is that the time of bourgeois revolutions has long passed. Now only the working class can, through the socialist revolution, accomplish the tasks of the democratic revolution.

It may be that the Palestinians on their own cannot make a revolution, but that you come to the conclusion from that that building a revolutionary party there is meaningless merely exposes your nationalist thinking. The Palestinian workers will receive aid in their revolution from the workers in Egypt, in Lebanon, and in other countries in the Middle East where the revolution is more likely to begin. In Georgia, for example, the revolution was inspired by the Russian one, and there was no other way because Georgia was even more retarded economically than Russia.


Palestinian workers have the power to undermine Israeli workers’ privilege and thereby break the imperialists’ stranglehold over Israeli working class politics, moving forward to proletarian internationalism.

This line is utterly incomprehensible - the fact that Palestinian workers can undermine Israeli workers' privileges is exactly the reason why it is so difficult for Israeli workers to develop an internationalist consciousness.

[Labor Shall Rule]

What the "tumultuous events in Russia" proved is that the time of bourgeois revolutions has long passed. Now only the working class can, through the socialist revolution, accomplish the tasks of the democratic revolution.

It may be that the Palestinians on their own cannot make a revolution, but that you come to the conclusion from that that building a revolutionary party there is meaningless merely exposes your nationalist thinking. The Palestinian workers will receive aid in their revolution from the workers in Egypt, in Lebanon, and in other countries in the Middle East where the revolution is more likely to begin. In Georgia, for example, the revolution was inspired by the Russian one, and there was no other way because Georgia was even more retarded economically than Russia.



This line is utterly incomprehensible - the fact that Palestinian workers can undermine Israeli workers' privileges is exactly the reason why it is so difficult for Israeli workers to develop an internationalist consciousness.

The Russian Revolution at no point resulted in socialism. It lead to an improvement in real conditions for real people, through a political representation of capital accumulation.

Go on, form a “revolutionary party” there, I'd like to see how far that goes.
It seems that you are stuck to a superficial Marxism, in which a study of public moods, sentiments, and political movements in their objective standing is rendered completely irrelevant. You are overestimating the current Palestinian worker's movement, so as to meet your own unique political criteria.

Though I have wishful thinking that Israeli workers will end the war (by ending the settlement of the West Bank), it's preposterous to sit around and inform Palestinians that they should just wait for Israel to see a socialist revolution and not rally with the national bourgeois under any circumstances.

[ipollux]

America's blind allegiance to Israel is sickening. It's only a matter of time before they're blown off the map ...

[comrade stalin guevara]

the goverment of israle along with the name will perish when the workers of palasteine unite and give alligence to a nuclear state.....:laugh::(

[Comrade B]

I think it is tragic that people hate the Israeli government so much that they blame the Israeli people. Every time a civilian is killed in Israel or a neighboring country, it is tragic, no matter how bad the things their governments have done are. The issue of Israel's existance is one of no solution. The natives of the region feel that the land was stolen by them, and outsiders owning the land as an insult to them. The violence will not stop if the Israeli government falls, because the Israeli people live there now. The West is the only true evil in this situation, feeding guns to the region to continue the violence.

[comrade stalin guevara]

pravada comrade:hammersickle:

[Yehuda Stern]

The Russian Revolution at no point resulted in socialism.

It resulted in a workers' state. Socialism cannot be achieved until the revolution wins all over the world. It's ridiculous, though, to claim that the state was bourgeois.


You are overestimating the current Palestinian worker's movement, so as to meet your own unique political criteria.

I think you're underestimating the power, not only of Palestinian workers, but of workers all over the Middle East, to justify your opportunism in relation to the bourgeois nationalist and Islamist leaderships.


it's preposterous to sit around and inform Palestinians that they should just wait for Israel to see a socialist revolution and not rally with the national bourgeois under any circumstances.

I never said that Palestinians should wait for the socialist revolution in Israel. That's actually the conclusion one would reach from your words. I said that the Palestinian workers must build their revolutionary party along with the rest of the peoples of the region.


The violence will not stop if the Israeli government falls, because the Israeli people live there now. The West is the only true evil in this situation, feeding guns to the region to continue the violence.

So let me get this straight. Are you for the existence of Israel? Not only for the existence of the state, but for the continuation of the current government? What sort of strange left-winger are you? And isn't Zionism an evil on its own, with or without the support of the west?

[Labor Shall Rule]

Whether a revolution would be bourgeois-democratic or socialist does not depend on what your Trot cliques (or even the Bolsheviks) say, but on the material conditions and class relations in Russia.

It's sad that Trotskyists (and the wider left) have developed such a backwards position on the Islamic movements, who have came to resist U.S. imperialism more radically than others.

The "right to self-determination" (to all of you) is typically a slogan that is used only to promote the fall of empire, rather than an important revolutionary step to an oppressed nationality. If you analyzed why Hamas, Hezbollah, or the Sadrists are popular, you'd be required to reenvision Permenant Revolution, and to understand why conditions are different in the epoch of imperialism then how Trotsky imagined it to be. It'd be a capitulation to the fact that democratic revolution (and the movements that lead them) is still very important today.

In Egypt, the Mahalla general-strike largely found leadership (and even agitation) in the Muslim Brotherhood. In Lebanon, pro-Hezbollah workers opened their plants to the homeless during intense Israeli bombing. How come they can attract so many members of the working class, yet your Trotskyist and socialist parties can not?

[Devrim]

In Egypt, the Mahalla general-strike largely found leadership (and even agitation) in the Muslim Brotherhood.

Please can you provide some evidence of this. I have heard nothing about it. I read the Arabic press, and have spoken to people who live there.

Devrim

[Yehuda Stern]

We have analyzed the reasons for the Islamists being popular, LSR, but that doesn't mean we support them. We also understand that what leads to terrorism is imperialist oppression, but we do not support terrorism. Your mistake is that your correct claim that the democratic revolution is important in the third world leads you to support the national bourgeoisie in those countries, when Marxists have for a long time seen that the bourgeois cannot carry out democratic revolutions anymore in our epoch, and that therefore this role must be fulfilled by the workers. Again, I believe that your position is only an expression of an opportunist attitude towards the national bourgeoisie in the third world and your inability, unwillingness, or both, to fight for a revolutionary party to be set up in those countries.

[Labor Shall Rule]

Please can you provide some evidence of this. I have heard nothing about it. I read the Arabic press, and have spoken to people who live there.

Devrim

I have no 'evidence' I'm afraid, but after the local ETUF board was recalled for urging the workers to cave into demands, an editor from an 'opposition' newspaper had stated that the Muslim Brotherhood had urged for the striker's needs to be met to Mubarak. They shortly gained 88 seats in the Eygptian elections.

[Devrim]

I have no 'evidence' I'm afraid, but after the local ETUF board was recalled for urging the workers to cave into demands, an editor from an 'opposition' newspaper had stated that the Muslim Brotherhood had urged for the striker's needs to be met to Mubarak. They shortly gained 88 seats in the Eygptian elections.


This in noway suggests that the strike's leadership was coming from the Muslim brotherhood.

Devrim

[Dean]

The ISL truly symapthizes with the suffering of the Israeli masses, unlike the Zionists who despise them and use them as cannon fodder. For this reason, we are honest with them. We say to them: so long as you continue to identify yourself with the state; so long as you continue to support its murderous oppression of the Palestinians; so long as you continue so sacrifice yourself and your children for its wars in service of imperialism, the Palestinian people will not and cannot sympathize with you, or tell the difference between you and your oppressors. The only way for Jews to live in peace in this land is to support the proletarian revolution in the Middle East.

I don't see how indiscriminate attacks including a civilian population can be justified by saying that the Palestinians "can't sympathize" with an imperialist society.

Don't get me wrong, I despise the Israeli government, but most of the solidarity with Hamas that the left is characterized by seems to ignore a few things, such as the theocratic nature of some of the groups and the obvious problem with firing rockets into civilian areas. There must be a better answer than this.

[Labor Shall Rule]

The Chinese Revolution accomplished all the national tasks of a democratic revolution, and even today (after the Dengist coup), they are growing by 10% yearly. Cuba and North Korea (even while under Soviet tutelage) did likewise. Iran is on their way to developing capital-intensive industry with their oil profits, and have already increased their annual steel and coal output in past campaigns. There have been bourgeois-democratic revolutions, and they have been successful in improving the lives of their people.

There is probably already a bunch of Trots there (the Middle East), but no one really gives a shit about them. That's what this is all about - Trotskyists do not want to see that there are movements and revolutions of a bourgeois-democratic character, so they are brushed "into the dustbin of history."

This is why this is so politically dangerous. If you take such an attitude, you allow the bourgeois to freely reign within the bourgeois-democratic movement, and Bonapartism (if it arises) goes unchecked. If you work within, the class conscious workers can push the democratic movement to the left, and it attracts them to independent proletariat currents also. Lenin, at the Second Congress of the Communist International, clearly put forth the Marxist position on the bourgeois-democratic anti-colonial movement - develop their own socialist parties while defaulting themselves to the wider struggle to open up political possibilities for the working class. If you ignore it, or pretend it doesn't exist, then people will do likewise to your parties.

[Yehuda Stern]

most of the solidarity with Hamas that the left is characterized by seems to ignore a few things, such as the theocratic nature of some of the groups and the obvious problem with firing rockets into civilian areas. There must be a better answer than this.

I'm not having any solidarity with Hamas, and mind you, the terrorist attack in question had nothing to do with Hamas. But what you and others like you who accept the falsities provided by the imperialist media don't get is that the problem in Palestine isn't religion, it's oppression. And as long as the oppression doesn't stop, as long as Israeli workers continue to support it, speaking about the "theocratic nature" of Hamas remains so much moralizing.

LSR: You are right that in Cuba and China (though definitely not in Iran), there have been partial democratic revolution, that today are threatened exactly because the ruling classes in Cuba and China cannot and do not wish to take them forward. This just proves the theory of the permanent revolution again. People like you, who believe that Hamas, Castro, the CCP, and other middle class nationalist groups can defeat imperialism will have huge bubble bursting in their face soon enough. Hamas has already started policing Palestine in the interests of Israel. Guess soon is sooner than we thought.

[Dean]

I'm not having any solidarity with Hamas, and mind you, the terrorist attack in question had nothing to do with Hamas. But what you and others like you who accept the falsities provided by the imperialist media don't get is that the problem in Palestine isn't religion, it's oppression. And as long as the oppression doesn't stop, as long as Israeli workers continue to support it, speaking about the "theocratic nature" of Hamas remains so much moralizing.

I have been following the Palestinian issue for a long time, mostly by reading AlJazeera and Haaretz. I don't think for a monet that I'm swallowing bourgeois rhetoric, nor that the recent bulldozer attack was related to Hamas. I do know that many liberation movements target civilians, and some support religious law. I may sympathize with their rationale, but I oppose their methods, and in some cases their goals.

If I remember correctly, you are an Israeli worker, correct? Do you really think its acceptable to support a policy which is potentially gravely dangerous to your own life?

[Yehuda Stern]

If I remember correctly, you are an Israeli worker, correct? Do you really think its acceptable to support a policy which is potentially gravely dangerous to your own life?

Well, again, I oppose terrorist attacks as a tactic for several reasons. But I do not join in with the liberal hue and cry over Arab / Muslim fanaticism, terrorism, or any other flavor of the month. The fault lies with imperialism, not with the oppressed masses pushed into desperate, terrible tactics by oppression.

I am very well aware that me, my friends, my family, we could all die in a suicide attack. But a revolutionist doesn't look for imperialism to defend his life. A revolutionary in Israel knows that the only way he will ever see peace in his land is if he joins with his Arab class brothers and sisters in their fight against imperialism. And for that, he must be on their side, understand their mistakes, and help them reach a Marxist consciousness. Wailing about terrorism, when it is a secondary effect of and not at all the cause of the problems of the region, will accomplish none of that.

[Zurdito]

Yehuda stern int his thread talks a whole lot of sense. especially the part about the best bet being a minority of Israeli workers turning against their state under heavy pressure from world events.

this is much more sensible than sowing the reformist illusion that the Israeliw orking class can jsut unite with the PAlestinians easily

[comrade stalin guevara]

“ The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organized pogroms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom) against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants who were tortured by want against the Jews. … Only the most ignorant and downtrodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. … It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. Among the Jews there are kulaks, exploiters and capitalists, just as there are among the Russians, and among people of all nations… Rich Jews, like rich Russians, and the rich in all countries, are in alliance to oppress, crush, rob and disunite the workers… Shame on accursed Tsarism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsarism) which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations.[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin#cite_note-59) ”:hammersickle:

[Yehuda Stern]

Other than the passage being correct it really makes no sense in this context. Lenin's passage describes an oppressed group in Czarist Russia; we are talking about a colonialist, privileged society in the heart of the third world. How can one compare the two?


Yehuda stern int his thread talks a whole lot of sense. especially the part about the best bet being a minority of Israeli workers turning against their state under heavy pressure from world events.

this is much more sensible than sowing the reformist illusion that the Israeliw orking class can jsut unite with the PAlestinians easily

Thank you. If you're interested in our positions, PM me and I'll send you some material.