Fuck the USA - tell me

[El Maarten]

To all the American people. I've got a question: If the USA want to attack Iraq because that's a terrorist state and has nucliar or chemical weapons why don't they attack North Korea (not that I want them to) because they have nucliar weapons too. They just want to atack for the oil isn't it? It is all about the fucking money not about the people!

[mentalbunny]

If America want to attack a terrorist country why doesn't it just attack itself?!

[Hayduke]

Quote: from El Maarten on 12:18 am on Dec. 1, 2002
To all the American people. I've got a question: If the USA want to attack Iraq because that's a terrorist state and has nucliar or chemical weapons why don't they attack North Korea (not that I want them to) because they have nucliar weapons too. They just want to atack for the oil isn't it? It is all about the fucking money not about the people!


Comrade,

Let me start by saying that its really nice to see another dutch person on che-lives, since there very little next to me.

Second I know that sometimes you just want to make a statement, but remember this isnt something we didnt heard before, so when you post something make it a bit more detailed if you know what I mean ;)

Well anyway, I saw this is your first post Maarten " Have a nice stay here " and if you need anything you may always send me a PM.

Your fellow dutchie

Bas

[Umoja]

Israel is a rouge state as well.

http://www.deadprez.net/images/durb1.jpg

I love that.

[Red Revolution]

according to bush and blair so is IRan and Libya

[Tkinter1]

Iraq is considered a direct threat to peace, and the stability of the world. The US can't go around attacking every country with nuclear weapons.

[Umoja]

What has Iraq done in recent history that constitutes it being a threat to security?

[Tkinter1]

Using chemical weapons on the Iranian's and its own people. Iraq is a constant threat to its own people, and neighboring countries.

[new democracy]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 10:18 pm on Nov. 30, 2002
Using chemical weapons on the Iranian's and its own people. Iraq is a constant threat to its own people, and neighboring countries.
completely true!!!! but how does bombing a nation that suffered from so many wars and violent would help their people?

[Tkinter1]

Saddam is the peoples problem. Ousting Saddam is the goal of the bombings, not to just destroy the country. We want to establish a less dictatorial rule in Iraq, and keep them from using their chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons against people.

[suffianr]

[quote]We want to establish a less dictatorial rule in Iraq, and keep them from using their chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons against people.[/qoute]

That's really sweet of them, now, isn't it? :)

Yes, it's not like Iraq isn't already half-destroyed by now anyway. Oh, there's another way to keep crazy people from playing with nukes, it's called non-proliferation. But I'm sure you knew that, Tkinter1.

[Tkinter1]

Was that paragraph entirely sarcastic?

[Xvall]

HAHAHA! I object!

[Tkinter1]

ok?

[Xvall]

Forget it. I don't believe you.

[Emmanual Goldstein]

I'm baked out of my fuckin skull right now but Ima try to lay it down for you. When Iraq used it's chemical weapons on innocent civilians the US didn't have any fucking objections, cause in 88 Rumsfeld and Saddam were butt buddies.

The CIA put saddam in powin in 64 which would lead any halfway intelligent though highly high person to ask the question "what kind of foriegn policy is this"

a rational one? nahhhh.

Build a dictator up, than beat the crap out of him when he gets too big for his fascist beret. You wanna talk about threats to peace?

If ousting Saddam is the goal then why the embargo. The fucking UN (not one of our commie think tanks) says the sanctions killed 1.7 million people. Saddam is still in power. And think about that number. 17 million.

1.7 MILLION!!!!!!!

LIVING BREATHING FEELING THINKING LOVING CARING HATING LAUGHING CRYING HAPPY SAD PEOPLE!!!!!!!!

NOT ABSTRACTIONS

NOT STATISTICS

PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GENOCIDE!!!!!!!!!

[Umoja]

Exactly, and Saddam is still healthy. Why do the Iraqi people get punished? As Omali Yeshetella said "You don't blame the opressed! You blame the Opressor..." He then goes on to talk about how Imperialism, white power, is the enemy and he has a point. Why do the Iraqi's and Saddam get blamed for doing what the US had wanted? Why is the US shocked about Bin Laden or the Taliban? Pinochet was acceptable? Marcos (Forget his first name) in the Phillipines?

Gosh, you guys can still be Capitalist and not support the current system. That doesn't mean you can't exploit people still, just make sure it doesn't make the majority of the world pissed at our country.

[Guest]

This is being over discussed, and over simplified.

[Pete]

"Using chemical weapons on the Iranian's and its own people. Iraq is a constant threat to its own people, and neighboring countries."

There we go. These weapons where [bold]given[bold] to Iraq by the [bold]Americans[bold]. Is it your policy to slaughter the world through some one elses hands? It is still murder, the legal theory is called [bold] CONSPIRACY and WILLFULL BLINDNESS and ADDING AND ALBIETING [bold]. Basically in a court of law, every act that Iraq has committed has been commited by the [bold] United States[bold]. The world has all the reason to Fuck the United States. I just hope that I don't have to fight my own private war like I am now at my school.

"This is being over discussed, and over simplified."

Over simplified maybe, over discussed no. Until the Dialectic is satisfied there can be no over discussing or over acting on the proletariant's (in the sense of everyone who works for a corporation, mine, farm, and is not management or higher, and everyone who is willing to fight the system) part.


(Edited by CrazyPete at 12:49 am on Dec. 1, 2002)

[Tkinter1]

we'll see how everything unfolds.

[Pete]

It will unfold. My prediction is that the Untied Nations will be much weaker in three months. That is if it exists as an unbiased International Body at all.

[Man of the Cause]

The people should be more worried about what the U.S is going to do next, not what the Al-Qaeda are going to do next.


(Edited by Man of the Cause at 8:34 am on Dec. 1, 2002)

[redstar2000]

"...what the U.S will do next" After Iraq, our next "designated colony" will be Colombia---poor bastards!

[MaxB]

Ever since the collapse of your "wonderful" Utopia, You Lefties have become more destructive and stupid. How dense and dumb can you Left Wingers be. SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK!!! Boy, you people are thick and empty headed. What's the average age of you Marxists here? 10 y/o? Capiutalism isn't perfect but Socialism is a total failure.

[Pete]

Quote: from MaxB on 5:22 pm on Dec. 2, 2002
Ever since the collapse of your "wonderful" Utopia, You Lefties have become more destructive and stupid. How dense and dumb can you Left Wingers be. SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK!!! Boy, you people are thick and empty headed. What's the average age of you Marxists here? 10 y/o? Capiutalism isn't perfect but Socialism is a total failure.

Capitalism sure isn't perfect. But the state of the world today is proof that it is horrible. The planet is dying. Capitalism uses more resources then our planet has. Soon we will all be dead. Thank you capitalism.
We have never had our 'Utopia'. It just has not been given it's chance to flourish, but the Dialectic says that the time will come. I can be patient.
We Leftists are tired of being trod upon. "Do tred on me" was a slogan from the American revolution for the more extreme revolutionary factions that existed at the time. Maybe we should take up the cry again. As well, as Redman said we do not take responsiblity for 20th century Communism. We will take responisbility for 21st century Communism.
Socialism works. Cuba is the most stable and developed Latin American country is it not? What is your age? I am 17. I have thrown off most of the bullshit I have been conditioned to believe, and am protecting my self from the current onslaught of senior highschool. I feel sad that you are still controlled by a corprate entity somewhere.
Where there is light to be seen, it will be seen. When there is corruption and hypocracy, it will be exposed. Where there is oppression and comformity there will be equality and freedom.
We know you are angry. I have read your posts. Your anger signifies your loss of the battle. I am not angry at you. I disagree. I look at thinks objectivily as much as possible. Max, if you do, you will finally see the light. You will expose the hypocracy of your arguement and beliefs. You will be free and welcomed as a comrade.
Until that day, please stop posting your bullshit, your anger, your lies. Until that day think dont emote.

[lifetrnal]

I feel it nessasary to reply to this. I am an american. I am not fond of the government of Iraq. However, I am not in the least bit in favor of another imperialistic war. Because, that is exactly what it would be. A war fought for American control over the world's second largest oil reserves. Why am I saying this? I suppose it is because I'm offended by the implication that *all americans* back the government here. Do you people really think that no one our country has the courage to believe what is right?

[Umoja]

I've noticed the Subject is being changed from the obvious arguments about why are policy to Iraq is wrong. No Capitalist have any justification for this? This is one of the issues, that is wrong with Capitalism, that's why. It's sure great to be the rich people under Capitalism, then it's fine, but not everyone can be rich under it, so for them it sucks but if we are capable of having everyone live well.... well why not have it? Greed?

[BasementAddix]

First off...theres no "fuck the USA"...thats way to broad of a statement...i have noticed alot of people like to reflect their anger towards the US, but there is plenty of more countries out there that does far worse. IE Iraq, Saudia Arabia, North Korea, Many of the Slav countries....etc...if you dont like a particular policy, then say so....but speaking in such broad terms is just straight up ignorance...

[BasementAddix]

Quote: from Umoja on 10:07 pm on Dec. 3, 2002
I've noticed the Subject is being changed from the obvious arguments about why are policy to Iraq is wrong. No Capitalist have any justification for this? This is one of the issues, that is wrong with Capitalism, that's why. It's sure great to be the rich people under Capitalism, then it's fine, but not everyone can be rich under it, so for them it sucks but if we are capable of having everyone live well.... well why not have it? Greed?


Ill respond to this. Our (USA) policy towards Iraq isnt wrong...well...totally not atleast...something does need to be done about Saddam....he kills his own people....and if he had the chance he'd control the rest of the middle east as well...he's a very brutal man, and isn't open at all towards religion or rational thinking for that matter...the only problem with the US's policy is that they cant convey to America (nor the rest of the world) how much of a problem he could be. Che said it himself that their shouldnt be any nuke testing...and he is actively testing and making weapons off mass destruction. During the pursian gulf he used chemical weapons on his own people. What kind of human would do that?
And as for you question regarding Capitalism....well...it isnt perfect...and yes we do get ass fucked by the govt a whole lot (look at nyc's current state)...but its the only thing that seems to be working....in America there is poverty...but not nearly the amount that communism in russia or the totalitarianism Iraq has...atleast it gives people the opportunity (even though small at times) to be "set". Im glad I dont have the restrictions of a forced job...I like atleast having an option...all Im saying really is that if people dont like capitalism so much...then do something about it...create a better...realistic system...if its truely great...the people will take to it...if not...try again...

[j]

Please ignore MaxB. He is a nuisance and will soon be gone. (was that from Billy Madison?)

Anyway, when we are only concerned about ourselves we see the sad state that world is in now. When we start to think about others and the general welfare of the planet we will make progress. Capitalism is driven by individualistic achievement and Communism is driven by desire for the general welfare of all people. Both have their flaws but Communism is closer to getting the world healed than Capitalism is.

Oh, believe me, Iraq is only the first target. N. Korea will be next and then Iran. They are the "axis of evil." Come on people keep up.

j

[IRANeAZAD5]

J shut up.

Attack Iran?

who exactly are you going to attack?

The people, who by the way are the most pro american people you will come across through out the middle east and asia?

The iranian army who the majority wont defend the islamic republic.

or the 10 figure heads that hold the true power in Iran?

whatever

American will never attack Iran.
They even said it themselves that theyre gonna just sit back and let the Iranian people take care of things themselves rather than them come inand .(the smartest thing america has ever done)


axis of evil?
J=maron

[Umoja]

Basement, I like your point, but Saddam isn't a threat. The war in Angola is a threat to human welfare, that's a problem, I've also heard that the ongoing instability in the Democratic Republic of the Congo has killed over 3 million people, these are areas that need assistance, but for some reason Africans aren't important unless they own oil, because we are already creating the war by having them sell us diamonds....

Now America still is the land of oppurtunity, and I pray to God every day, not litterally, in thanks that I was born here but the only reason we are in such oppurtunity is that we export poverty. Our Capitalism is so successful because we rarely ever see the huge poverty it produces.

[BasementAddix]

We tried to help Africa (ie Black Hawk Down)...much of Africa is ruled by tribes...who dont think reason...the Congo does need help (way more then IRAQ)...i agree...but it wont happen...theres no public support for it...

[Umoja]

"We tried to help Africa (ie Black Hawk Down)...much of Africa is ruled by tribes...who dont think reason...the Congo does need help (way more then IRAQ)...i agree...but it wont happen...theres no public support for it... "

Much of Africa is not ruled by tribes. Black Hawk Down is one of the dumbest situations to base all this on. Somalia is a country that the Soviet Union backed. Unfortunatly they also backed the Somalis arch-nemesis the Ethiopians. The Soviets foolishly gave both sides millitary supplies in the hope they could defend themselves from Capitalist states, but instead they started a war with each other, that's where Somalia's problems lie. Tribes have little to do with that. The Cold War has had possibly the most negative effect on Africa pitting rebel armies against each other, and added to the burden of Colonialism it's a good thing many of these countries are as stable as they are (Botswanna, Egypt (Do they really count?), Kenya, Ghana, Nigeria and of course South Africa come to mind).

Even if the public doesn't support helping Africa how can you claim that it's not right to? Why doesn't our country care about Africa? It doesn't care about the human rights abuses, because their is little oil to be had their. So the propaganda machine makes Saddam look like the worst leader in the world, when their are equally bad leaders in Africa. This only further contributes to the precieved anti-islamic bias of the United States.

[BasementAddix]

i wasnt basing what i said on that...its an example...and yes...much of the congo region (i should have been more specific) if ruled by tribes (clans...whatever u want to call them)...and also...i didnt say that it wasnt right not to back africa (support wise)...im just saying it wont happen...

[abstractmentality]

concerning what J said about the next targets being N. Korea and Iran, this is actually what will probaby happen. i cant remember where i read this, but i have read it from a few different sources. however bizarre it may seem, N. Korea and Iran have a good chance of being next.

(Edited by abstractmentality at 12:25 am on Dec. 6, 2002)

[BasementAddix]

Iran...doubt it...N Korea...highly possible...

[Pete]

America will not pick a fight with anyone more powerful then them selves. Or someone who can put up a fight. Like say North Korea with it's missile force and Chinese support. The Koreans sleep easy. Iran is scared shitless. America is a bully that refuses to lose.

[Corvus Corax]

Hhhhhhmmm Black Hawk Down...Wasn't that the mass massacre of Somali Rebels?

[j]

what is a maron? is that like moron?

anyway, iran and n. korea have been labeled the enemy by the US. If the US continues its policy of preemptive action (like what will most certainly occur in Iraq) then why not iran and n. korea?

Believe me, I DO NOT think it is a good idea to attack either (or Iraq for that matter) but I am looking for patterns. Bush declared Iran, Iraq, and N. Korea an "axis of evil" following 9-11. Now we find ourselves in a situation with Iraq. Iran and N. Korea would be the logical next steps in purging "evil" from the world.

Why does Bush consider these countries to be the "axis of evil?" I don't really know. And wouldn't axis mean they all have something in common? Could N. Korea have sensed the same pattern I am sensing and tried to alter it by declaring it was building nuclear weapons? Who knows. I am merely following a pattern. I don't quite know how that would make me a moron (or a maron or maroon or even teel).

j

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

The first sucker on this forum who BELIEVES what the american propaganda says.

So you are saying that nations that use chemical and nuclear weapons(on ppl) should be attacked.

Candidate numero uno:

America-with the largest nuclear and chemical stock.

Iraq used chemical weapons in the iraq-iran war ,guess who had given full support to this idea.-->america.

And guess what happens if america runs out of oil??

Economical breakdown. -Bcuz the american industry runs on oil (and think about all of those fatt americans who cant live without their car.)

Riots- Many companies will go falliet and the biggest part of the poputlation will lose its jobs. Unemployment, hunger ,armed mobs ,rapes and murder they will all strike on america. Ppl will isolate themselves in groups to survive. Streetgangs and mobs are formed.

America falls apart- After a time of anarchy.Eventually the american dream stops and it will fall apart in smaller states of ppl who feeled themselves suppressed under the old "Regime" Or one strong man seizes power with the support of a group of "patriots" who desire to the old america and so is a regime born.



And what to do to avoid this. Oil and lots of it. And where is it avaible-->Iraq.

And did you really think that the american government wants to get rid of the saddam government because the iraqi ppl suffer so much. Why did pappa Bush then support and allie with Saddam Hussein.

Why did George Walker Bush trade with Osama's brother knowing of Osama Bin Laden ideas over america(and his dad was head of the CIA that says enough)

[BasementAddix]

America wont lose its oil...Iraq isnt the only supplier...gas efficient cars are being made...and besides that...Russia is stepping up in the oil game...for me...im not worried about it much...

[Pete]

America will lose its oil. Can't you see it? The environmental costs will force it to give it up. "Fuel efficent" but SUV's are being made and sold. You should worry. You cannot last. David Suzki's "Test Tube" theory proves it. We are at 100% how long until we all die?

~Unviels new icon~ (That is unrelated)

[Tkinter1]

And what about when the WORLD runs out of oil? Will the world crumble as the US did? Don't you think that the search for alternatives would come before anarchy and chaos?


Remember, we still have nuclear, hydro, wind, hydrogen, solar and a compound found in corn....If we're looking at the energy aspect.

[BasementAddix]

Quote: from Tkinter1 on 8:09 am on Dec. 8, 2002
And what about when the WORLD runs out of oil? Will the world crumble as the US did? Don't you think that the search for alternatives would come before anarchy and chaos?


Remember, we still have nuclear, hydro, wind, hydrogen, solar and a compound found in corn....If we're looking at the energy aspect.




exactly...

[Umoja]

It'll still cause an economic dark-age when oil supplies run out considering they will only last for another half-century if we are lucky. After that either we will stop using oil, and come to grips with the enviornment or we will destory ourselves fighting over oceanic oil supplies.

[Tkinter1]

Well when we run out of oil, we wouldn't be fighting over oceanic supplies would we? So we would have to start using our alternative sources to a greater extent.

[BasementAddix]

but the whole thing is...we wont run out of oil anytime soon...atleast not in our lifetime...dont u think things will have changed and become more efficient by then?

[Pete]

Quote: from BasementAddix on 5:23 am on Dec. 9, 2002
but the whole thing is...we wont run out of oil anytime soon...atleast not in our lifetime...dont u think things will have changed and become more efficient by then?

You just pointed out the major flaw in Capitalistic thought. They don't care about the future generations. "We have enough now, if they are fucked doesn't bother me." That kind of approach will kill the Planet many times faster then say the Navoh Amerindians (I spelt the nation's name wrong) who believed that the earth was on loan from 7 generations to the future and it was thier responsiblity to make sure that thier would still be a world left for them to live on.

[Aleksander Nordby]

I say that we give USA back do the native americans, the country belongs to them.........................................

[Geddan]

Egoism will all fuck us. We swedes have pretty much forest, but when the US falls apart we won't let the US goverment have any for their own wicked purposes, not until we, the socialists, have seized power there.

To be a bit more serious, one of today's wrong made my cappies is as someone mentioned, the lack of respect for future generations. When I start to argue environment with cappie's they of course lack the arguments but they don't really care they say. This is so fuckin stupid since they can't realise that their TV, Computer, their cappie car and their goddamn clothes are made up of resources which they plan to plunder till nothing remains! A green/red/black society is the only hope if we will survive. And we will, we are waiting for Marx' prophecy to come true. Then egoism, capitalism and liberalism won't fuck the world.

[BasementAddix]

Quote: from Aleksander Nordby on 11:12 am on Dec. 11, 2002
I say that we give USA back do the native americans, the country belongs to them.........................................


funny...that was hundreds of years ago?...Do the Isrealies get back the middle east?...Do the indians get back Canada?...come on now...

[Aleksander Nordby]

the isrealies people can have back middle east but living with the palestines in peace.

[Pete]

If we start giving the world back to its orginal inhabitants, people like me are fucked. I am English, Scottish, Dutch, and French by decent. Just tear me in four peices and bury me in each of the Mother Lands. Really. An anarchy of all people living without borders. That, although just as hard to realize, is a better hope then sending us back to our ancetral lands...

[BasementAddix]

while were at it...lets just give the USA back to britian and let them fight the indians...

[Pete]

the brits atleast established native territories in the Ohio River Valley, which is one of the causes of the American Rebellion.

[peaccenicked]

This thread is ridiculous but it is a better idea to improve american education than to ''Fuck'' them.
http://www.ccchronicle.com/back/2002-12-09...09/campus8.html (http://www.ccchronicle.com/back/2002-12-09/campus8.html)

[Comrade Daniel]

America simply does everything as long as they profit of it and as long as they got money, they aren't planning to attack Iraq because of the weapons but because of the oil. Bush simply want's him to become richer but how about the Iraqi people? They have rights to live they will be bommed and killed also as far as I know the way of American warfare we should not allow this war because Bush want's to be more powerful. Besides if they wan't peace and no weapons of mass destruction why don't they demolish their own weapons.
(Ps: are their any dutch members up here?)

[BasementAddix]

[quote]Quote: from Comrade Daniel on 6:14 pm on Dec. 20, 2002
They have rights to live they will be bommed and killed also as far as I know the way of American warfare we should not allow this war because Bush want's to be more powerful.
[quote]

not possible....

(Edited by BasementAddix at 8:34 am on Dec. 21, 2002)

[Comrade Daniel]

Nothing can't be said to be impossible, if you have enough protestors you can achieve a lot!

[BasementAddix]

I mean its not possible for bush to have more power...it WONT happen...

[Corvus Corax]

About this giving the Middle East 'back' to the israelis.

The Middle East never belonged to the Israelis, the UN just nicked sum of Palestines land and gave it to them, leaving them to capture more and more and become what is today Israel.

[socialist ballistix]

sorry comrades i know i havent posted in a long time. In response to Basement Addix, it is definitly possible for Bush to have more power. Even though he controls alot right now, once he has the middle east, there will be no turning back. The U.S will have a dirty,evil,capitalist bullshit democracy empire that will spreads across a rotten, stink infested globe. Heh, im startring to sound alot like Upton Sinclair. Anyways, Bush or the people that tell him wut to do have obviously realized that the oil in the middle east is the only thing worht going there for. They obviously dont care about the people. They have showed this in many other instanes of war, ie. somalia, vietnam... etc. Tghe capitalist *****es are going for the black gold. And we must stop them.
Thank you for your time

[BasementAddix]

no...follow politics...its called checks and balances...its not possible for him to gain more power...the 2 other branches wont let it happen...

[Benni]

Yea you are right with fucking Money the People goes bad. Che Fight for Freedom but the fucking Politician Promote more and more the fucking Slavery for the whole World. Look at Bush he Exerts itself for the war In Iraq. Nevertheless, he is terribel totally.

[Guest]

because we can. love us or leave us, we are the best and be thankfull.

[mig1907]

We don't love you, and we certanly can not leave you. So why don't you leave us? I saw people murdered by the americans, refugees running from your "napalm humanitarism", so spare me the BS.
The best?!? yeah, right...

[Invader Zim]

Quote: from Corvus Corax on 6:31 pm on Dec. 22, 2002
About this giving the Middle East 'back' to the israelis.

The Middle East never belonged to the Israelis, the UN just nicked sum of Palestines land and gave it to them, leaving them to capture more and more and become what is today Israel.


I would like to point out that in to be fair to the israilies they did get a large hunk of desert. And they tutned it into a highly prosperus area. Then the Arab nations seeing this ammased a huge army against them and lost.

I want to say if you had just made an area really prosperus would you want to give it away to a load of people who want you driven back to the sea and destroyed. (which is what the arab's want in the 60's they publicly announsed that when they thought they would win the war.)

"to capture more and more and become what is today Israel"
You mean the Gaza strip ect. Well they were stratigic military positions. If Izrail did not control them then it the arab nations would certainly invade with them.

But the whole sale bombing of palistinian areas is not acceptable, and should be condemmed for the blatant terrorism that it is.