Thoughts on these beliefs

[534634634265]

I believe that religious faith is a crutch that allows the believer to access the inherent power within themselves. All religions are simply different means to the same end. God is merely a term for the human spirit, and whether you achieve communion with this power through meditation, prayer, speaking tongues, etc, you are experiencing direct contact with that power. Its the same power that makes people do incredible things like survive great wounds or falls, or perform amazing feats of strength, or experience miraculous or faith-based healing. My dilemma is this; if I believe this and am aware of this power, why do i feel it is so difficult to reach? Why has finding my means of reaching this been such a journey?:(

[BurnTheOliveTree]

Well, first, what is it that you mean by "human spirit"? What is the 'power' you're talking about? What is your justification for saying that prayer and speaking in tongues directly contact the 'power', rather than prayer being talking to yourself and tongues talking gibberish?

You need to explain what it is you are specifically talking about before we can properly respond to you. :)

-Alex

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

This should be moved to Religion, I think.

[BIG BROTHER]

well that "power" you mention, I'm guessing is controlled by an unconscious part of our body so that's why it must be hard to control it.

I read once about this guy who helped ppl cure themselves of cancer or something like that by imagining that there were like little thing inside their body killing the cancer cells. Apparently the people with the strongest will and could picture it the best were actually cured.

is this kinda like what you mean?

[534634634265]

NOO! dont move me to religion, i want help with the existential parts of this belief structure, not trolls who grief me.

ahem,
ok by human spirit i mean just that. a powerful force of inherently good nature that all people possess.
it is easily made into whatever you want it to be when you name it, thus so many different faiths and belief systems. simply many names for the same end product.
i share your belief that prayer and tongues are foolish. but, for those people, the only way to tap into that power is by using their christian/muslim/whatever faith as a stepping stone to that innate power we humans possess.
even the guy that faith-healed through his beliefs in little particles of energy, people put their faith in these other ideas, instead of in themselves and thus is is through these other ideas and not themselves that they can achieve this empowered state. like nirvana or enlightenment or rapture.
now then, since this is my belief why is it so difficult, what roadblocks am i facing, to tapping into that power or enlightenment?

[534634634265]

well that "power" you mention, I'm guessing is controlled by an unconscious part of our body so that's why it must be hard to control it.
is this kinda like what you mean?
thats part of it, but definitely right. its like a subconscious power that can be tapped into and experienced in various ways, or by various means. i seek the most direct route though.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

a powerful force of inherently good nature that all people possess.


Okay. What does this force consist of? Is it like electricity - consisting of tiny particles of matter (electrons)? How do you know that the force has a good nature, and how do you know what a good nature is in the first place?



it is easily made into whatever you want it to be when you name it


Whatever I want it to be? Can I say, produce a mountain with it, or give myself wings? Easily, too?



the only way to tap into that power is by using their christian/muslim/whatever faith as a stepping stone to that innate power we humans possess.


I think that I still have to ask you how you know this power exists in the first place? Do you have direct evidence of it's existence? Why does the power need to be "tapped into", why isn't it directly at our disposal? Has anyone successfully used this power, and if so, what have they done with it?


now then, since this is my belief why is it so difficult, what roadblocks am i facing, to tapping into that power or enlightenment?

To be honest with you, I am sceptical that this power of yours exists in the first place. I need evidence first.

-Alex

[eyedrop]

I read once about this guy who helped ppl cure themselves of cancer or something like that by imagining that there were like little thing inside their body killing the cancer cells. Apparently the people with the strongest will and could picture it the best were actually cured.


Can't people stop believeing things they see on the tellie? Medical science done without a controlled environment is bullshit every time. Especially when the guys portraying it earns money on it.

Funny how people have so much trouble accepting a new vaccine when they believe bullshit like this so easy.

[The Feral Underclass]

I believe that religious faith is a crutch that allows the believer to access the inherent power within themselves.

What is this power and where does it come from? How is it formed and how is it gained?


All religions are simply different means to the same end.

Which is what...?


God is merely a term for the human spirit, and whether you achieve communion with this power through meditation, prayer, speaking tongues, etc, you are experiencing direct contact with that power.

So human spirit is the power? Can you explain how this power is formed and where it comes from? How and why would you make contact with it?


Its the same power that makes people do incredible things like survive great wounds or falls, or perform amazing feats of strength, or experience miraculous or faith-based healing.

How is it? How is this "power" more of a reason that simple human capability?


My dilemma is this; if I believe this and am aware of this power, why do i feel it is so difficult to reach?

Because it's not real...


Why has finding my means of reaching this been such a journey?:(

Because you're attempting to find something that's not there. Once you've accepted that you'll be able to do something useful, perhaps?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Can a global mod move this to Religion?

[534634634265]

damn it, i didnt want to end up in religion. too much mockery and trolldom. ah well.

the human spirit isnt like electricity. its an innate power. it has a good nature because people have an inherently good nature. this doesnt prevent us from doing bad things, or mean there arent bad people.
you misunderstand, i dont mean its a physical force of creation. it can made into what you want it to be in that same spiritual sense. if you want to call it god and jesus and the holy spirit, then thats the framework from which you approach it.
we are proof of its existence, all of natures beauty shows you this power. the buddhist monks who can regulate and drastically alter their body temperatures are doing so by touching and become part of this power or human spirit.
you dont HAVE to tap into this power, its constantly on tap. you can directly tap into it, but its not so simple as an on/off switch. people who have done so? i would again mention the monks. i feel that it is likely that the great religious leaders or prophets had an awareness of this, but by trying to explain it through a religious framework or mindset, they clouded the clarity of the concept.
you need proof of the human spirit? look at any great art, read any story of people helping people for no gain to themselves, hell read any great work of literature and its there. its what drove those creations and choices. humanity is driven to do its great things by the greatness that it has inside.

also, for the off-topic cancer thread. its been proven those who have a strong will to fight their cancer generally have a higher success rate in their struggle with it. call it the placebo affect if you want.

i originally posted this in philosophy because i wanted to have a real discussion of my beliefs, not be trolled. im trying to answer any questions you ask, but its not an effective system if you make limp one-line comebacks to what i say instead of contributing. if you think this is ridiculous, then dont respond to it, just move on.

[Dros]

There is no "inner power" at least not in a literal sense. It simply does not exist.

[534634634265]

There is no "inner power" at least not in a literal sense. It simply does not exist.
but you have as much proof of its nonexistence as i do of its realness.
do you think people have souls then?

[BurnTheOliveTree]

it has a good nature because people have an inherently good nature.


What is a "good nature", and what is your evidence for claiming that people have it?



it can made into what you want it to be in that same spiritual sense.


The reason I'm making you define everything so stringently is because this kind of belief gets through the net on vague concepts like 'spiritual'. What is spiritual?



the buddhist monks who can regulate and drastically alter their body temperatures are doing so by touching and become part of this power or human spirit.



How do you know? You cannot simply state things and expect us to believe them, you need to provide an argument. Why aren't they simply exercising a bodily function when they do this, like sneezing or moving your arm?



i feel that it is likely that the great religious leaders or prophets had an awareness of this


Who are these great religious leaders, and why should we believe that they were aware of this mystical power? Make sure you properly explain what this power is, first - you have not yet told me what it's made out of.


look at any great art, read any story of people helping people for no gain to themselves, hell read any great work of literature and its there. its what drove those creations and choices. humanity is driven to do its great things by the greatness that it has inside.

Well, I'm quite a literature buff. Why do you insist that these people are driven by something other than simple creativity? This is not a proof, it is an assertion.



but you have as much proof of its nonexistence as i do of its realness.


Yes, but the burden of proof is with you, or this proposition dies by Occam's Razor.



do you think people have souls then?


No, we are materialists.

-Alex

[534634634265]

What is a "good nature", and what is your evidence for claiming that people have it?

good nature is the inherent urge to do good for themselves and others, people have it or we would all still be hoarding meat, women, and fire in our own little caves.

The reason I'm making you define everything so stringently is because this kind of belief gets through the net on vague concepts like 'spiritual'. What is spiritual?

1.of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal. 2.of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to life that is separate from the physical but still connected to it.

How do you know? You cannot simply state things and expect us to believe them, you need to provide an argument. Why aren't they simply exercising a bodily function when they do this, like sneezing or moving your arm?

because according to the monks themselves they go into a zen state. a state of intensely deep meditation where they are connected to but still separate from everything around them.

Who are these great religious leaders, and why should we believe that they were aware of this mystical power? Make sure you properly explain what this power is, first - you have not yet told me what it's made out of.

anyone considered a great spiritual mystic was, in my opinion, aware of the human spirit so this would include but not be resricted to Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, Siddartha, etc.
So caught up on this word "power"! its not like electricity, i keep repeating this. Its a spiritual power.

Well, I'm quite a literature buff. Why do you insist that these people are driven by something other than simple creativity? This is not a proof, it is an assertion.

im glad youre well read. i too enjoy reading, i made a point of reading on this as much as i could in order to come to the beliefs i have. what im saying is that the human spirit is creativity, or that creativity is an aspect of it.

[Dros]

but you have as much proof of its nonexistence as i do of its realness.

No. There is no evidence at all that supports any of these claims. You have absolutely no proof at all because it is impossible to prove a fallacy.


do you think people have souls then?

No. Souls also don't exist, at least in a scientific sense. I'm a materialist. Not an idealist.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

good nature is the inherent urge to do good for themselves and others, people have it or we would all still be hoarding meat, women, and fire in our own little caves


1. You've basically told me "good nature is doing good, naturally". That's a tautology; what I want to know is what "good" is, and how you have discovered it.

2. We did the meat hoarding thing for a long time. How do you reconcile this with the belief that we have some innate drive to do otherwise?

3. Isn't a better argument for why we progressed from this hunter-gatherer state one grounded in material reality? Like, the agricultural revolution and the advent of farming and, shortly thereafter, the arbitrary establishment of private property rights?



1.of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal. 2.of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to life that is separate from the physical but still connected to it.


This doesn't help, because again you are using a tautology - "spiritual means to do with spirits". What is "spirit", then? I will get a proper definition out of you, damn it. :)


because according to the monks themselves they go into a zen state. a state of intensely deep meditation where they are connected to but still separate from everything around them.

Why is this any different from ordinary physical sensation? I feel connected but separate to my keyboard as I push the buttons in. No spirits or phantoms here. ;)


anyone considered a great spiritual mystic was, in my opinion, aware of the human spirit

So it's really a popularity contest to see who knows about this magic power of yours!


im glad youre well read. i too enjoy reading

It's ace, isn't it?



what im saying is that the human spirit is creativity, or that creativity is an aspect of it.


If the "human spirit" is literally creativity, then there is really nothing special about it. If creativity is only part of it, what are the other parts?

-Alex

[534634634265]

1. You've basically told me "good nature is doing good, naturally". That's a tautology; what I want to know is what "good" is, and how you have discovered it.
i dont think i said that, but if thats how it was interpreted...
1.morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man.
2.satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree: a good teacher; good health. 3.of high quality; excellent.
4.right; proper; fit: It is good that you are here. His credentials are good.
5.well-behaved: a good child.
6.kind, beneficent, or friendly: to do a good deed.
7.honorable or worthy; in good standing: a good name.
hopefully this is a clear enough definition of "good". for my purposes, please see 1, 4, and 7 as a definition of what "good" is. hopefully from this multitude of definitions (there are 58 total) we can finally establish that good exists and that it isn't something one "discovers". please, if you feel like further bending my words into loops do me the favor of going to the dictionary first.:cool:

2. We did the meat hoarding thing for a long time. How do you reconcile this with the belief that we have some innate drive to do otherwise?
just because we do something for a long time doesn't mean its what were meant to do. also, we hoarded and fought amongst ourselves while in a lesser state. man as it is known today is a more evolved creature than the neaderthal and cro-magnon who fought with sticks and rocks. maybe the human spirit came into being as we became self aware. maybe with the development of consciousness came the development of a soul too.

3. Isn't a better argument for why we progressed from this hunter-gatherer state one grounded in material reality? Like, the agricultural revolution and the advent of farming and, shortly thereafter, the arbitrary establishment of private property rights?
only if you place the cause of change on the physical process itself. ignoring the development of humanity that led to those innovations is like saying people don't kill people guns do. someone had to realize that the current farming techniques could be more efficient. it was in their nature as a human to make their life simpler if they were able.

This doesn't help, because again you are using a tautology - "spiritual means to do with spirits". What is "spirit", then? I will get a proper definition out of you, damn it.
i think when you found the word tautology you really wanted a chance or two to use it.
now then, spirit is...
1.the principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul.
2.the incorporeal part of humans: present in spirit though absent in body.
3.the soul regarded as separating from the body at death.
4.conscious, incorporeal being, as opposed to matter: the world of spirit.
5.a supernatural, incorporeal being, esp. one inhabiting a place, object, etc., or having a particular character: evil spirits.
6.a fairy, sprite, or elf.
7.an angel or demon.
8.an attitude or principle that inspires, animates, or pervades thought, feeling, or action: the spirit of reform.
for my purposes lets look at definitions 1, 2, 4, and 8. those should provide the most accurate idea of what i believe "spirit" is.


Why is this any different from ordinary physical sensation? I feel connected but separate to my keyboard as I push the buttons in. No spirits or phantoms here.
clever witticism, but i doubt that you experience "oneness" with the keyboard the way monks experience being "one" with their surroundings. you physically manipulate a keyboard, the keyboard (hopefully) can't manipulate you.:blushing:


So it's really a popularity contest to see who knows about this magic power of yours!
its neither a popularity contest, nor is it magic. i hope if you feel so comical about the subject then it wont be hard for you to find a more real and interesting topic, and stop griefing me. i chose the words spiritual leaders for a reason. these were people regarded by their peers as men of great wisdom and intellect. i don't want clay aiken's advice, i want Siddartha's.


If the "human spirit" is literally creativity, then there is really nothing special about it. If creativity is only part of it, what are the other parts?
How could i explain the variety of parts of the human spirit? everything and anything that man is, was, or could be has the human spirit in it. the human spirit is the source of all that people do and experience. it isnt just creativity, nor is it just happiness, or fulfillment, or depression. these are all aspects of it that we experience.

i think the dilemma we are facing is that this is a faith-based belief. i have faith in the human spirit and you do not, thus for you it is a hard pill to swallow that it exists.
you see any sort of faith-based belief as...i don't know really. i'll go out on a limb and say weakness or foolish superstition. i see it merely as what a person believes and i feel that they are free to believe it, without expecting it to become my beliefs or forcing it upon others.
my point in sharing this was to see what others believe and to find out their opinions of mine.
you shared your feelings on this several posts back, and now seem content to offer a L'eng T'che death to whatever i have to say.

[BurnTheOliveTree]

hopefully this is a clear enough definition of "good".

It isn't - all those words are just syonyms for "good", not explanations. Perhaps it would be better phrased "what does good consist of"? For example, is "good" always being honest? Etc.



just because we do something for a long time doesn't mean its what were meant to do


Why did we do it, then? Could it be for reasons grounded in material reality rather than this spiritual realm of yours?


we hoarded and fought amongst ourselves while in a lesser state. man as it is known today is a more evolved creature

Okay, explain the evolutionary change that made us suddenly civilise.


maybe the human spirit came into being as we became self aware. maybe with the development of consciousness came the development of a soul too.

Show me 'the soul'. Also, if 'the soul' is evolved, show me it's genetic basis.


it was in their nature as a human to make their life simpler if they were able.

Actually, life was quite a lot harder for the early farmers than for the nomads.



those should provide the most accurate idea of what i believe "spirit" is.


Most of those definitions seem to imlply that there exists a whole other world made of something other than matter... Incorporeal, you might say. I am a materialist - why should I believe that such a place exists?


clever witticism, but i doubt that you experience "oneness" with the keyboard the way monks experience being "one" with their surroundings. you physically manipulate a keyboard, the keyboard (hopefully) can't manipulate you

Thank you. :blushing: Now, you still need to explain the difference between "oneness" and ordinary physical sensation.



i hope if you feel so comical about the subject then it wont be hard for you to find a more real and interesting topic, and stop griefing me.



I don't mean to upset you. You must admit though, most people who use the word "spiritual" are in practice talking about magic powers, like talking to the dead and such. You have not yet sunk that low, but only because you've carefully evaded talking plainly about these beliefs of yours. At some point you have to choose between whether you believe in magic or reality.



How could i explain the variety of parts of the human spirit? everything and anything that man is, was, or could be has the human spirit in it. the human spirit is the source of all that people do and experience. it isnt just creativity, nor is it just happiness, or fulfillment, or depression. these are all aspects of it that we experience.


You're still just dancing around the issue, offering little hints at what this spirit might be.

What is it?



you see any sort of faith-based belief as...i don't know really. i'll go out on a limb and say weakness or foolish superstition.


I wouldn't say weak, but I would say foolish and superstitious. As far as I can see, "faith-based belief" could justify anything by your criteria, and for that reason I think that logic is a safer bet. Can you see that point?



i see it merely as what a person believes and i feel that they are free to believe it, without expecting it to become my beliefs or forcing it upon others.
my point in sharing this was to see what others believe and to find out their opinions of mine.



Of course! I don't want to bully you into thinking differently. That said, you put up these thoughts on a public message board that is centred around debate - that makes them fair game, in my opinion. If you can't handle disagreement, it was probably a bad idea to post on Revleft. If you can, and want to debate, then it was a good idea. :)



you shared your feelings on this several posts back, and now seem content to offer a L'eng T'che death to whatever i have to say.


Well, honestly, it's because I vehemently disagree. If you don't want me to comment on your ideas anymore, then I guess I won't. :(

-Alex

[534634634265]

It isn't - all those words are just synonyms for "good", not explanations. Perhaps it would be better phrased "what does good consist of"? For example, is "good" always being honest? Etc.
well thats a tricky little eel you've got caught there isn't it?
whatever i say good consists of is only going to be my interpretation of it. we could have a completely different discussion around that. that being said i would classify good as the following things.
*respectful of yourself and others
*genuine in your thoughts and actions
*unafraid of resisting oppression
*seeking to aid your fellow man, and yourself as an extension of this

theres more to being "good", but i'm not sure i'm up to the task of making a concise definition of what exactly consists of.




Why did we do it, then? Could it be for reasons grounded in material reality rather than this spiritual realm of yours?
it could be, but then i'd be arguing your point:)
srsly tho... we likely do things that arent helpful to us or good for us because we lack the understanding or foresight to see the harm our choices,actions,etc. are causing or could cause. we are either ignorant of the outcome of our choices, or aware and willfully causing it to be so.:bored:
i shudder to think.

Okay, explain the evolutionary change that made us suddenly civilise.
well, heres another difference in beliefs. i think we developed an awareness of others needs, and a soul. things that helped this along? the development of common means of communication. the development of a history and the concept of a future.
also, the realization that the future will suck without other people in it.:thumbup:


Show me 'the soul'. Also, if 'the soul' is evolved, show me it's genetic basis.
oh ok, let me get right on that:blink:
i don't think the soul evolved the way bipedal movement evolved. i think it developed as we evolved. sort like the nubby at the end of your spine, im sure you'll find that a fitting analogy. just my mystical belief structure?


Actually, life was quite a lot harder for the early farmers than for the nomads.
thus more motivation/inspiration to simplify their work and their lives. how else to enjoy what you have than to make that which keeps you from it less burdensome?
if i see Grog working himself to the bone trying to push a boulder through his field like a plow, i might show him how making some large forest beastie drag it instead is much simpler, and more efficient. i have thus helped a fellow man, inspiring him to help me or others. the way i see it, that enriches the human spirit.


Most of those definitions seem to imply that there exists a whole other world made of something other than matter... Incorporeal, you might say. I am a materialist - why should I believe that such a place exists?
i mean, i can't make you believe it the same way you can't make me believe your an alien. it seems more than likely to me that some world beyond our own exists, but again different beliefs.


Thank you. Now, you still need to explain the difference between "oneness" and ordinary physical sensation.
im not the buddha, but i'll give my definition as i understand it.
"oneness" = being "one" with your surroundings. a state of hyper-consciousness where a person experiences and is aware of a connection between themselves and everything around them.

(from the wiki) The notion of Nirvana is a transcendental postulate, which can only be proven psychologically/subjectively, not scientifically.:D


I don't mean to upset you. You must admit though, most people who use the word "spiritual" are in practice talking about magic powers, like talking to the dead and such. You have not yet sunk that low, but only because you've carefully evaded talking plainly about these beliefs of yours. At some point you have to choose between whether you believe in magic or reality.
only if they talk about doing the impossible with this spirit. im not talking about the "holy"spirit. im talking about the human spirit. the zest and zeal in life. i don't believe in the cosmic jewish zombie kind of "spiritual". more of the tree-hugging hippy, lets all dance for earth kind of "spiritual".:ohmy::p:tongue_smilie:


You're still just dancing around the issue, offering little hints at what this spirit might be. What is it?
if you or anyone could sum up the human spirit in a single definition i would be considerably impressed. people have likely labored as long as we have existed to define what EXACTLY the human spirit is. more of my magical beliefs i suppose.


I wouldn't say weak, but I would say foolish and superstitious. As far as I can see, "faith-based belief" could justify anything by your criteria, and for that reason I think that logic is a safer bet. Can you see that point?
well, thats sort of the point of faith. i can no more show you what i believe in a satisfactory way than you could show me what makes gravity. you see its effects in the world, but defining it assumes a belief in its existence. logic has its place, but i feel that we live in a world where logic will at some point fail you, and the only explanation will be something greater than yourself.


Of course! I don't want to bully you into thinking differently. That said, you put up these thoughts on a public message board that is centred around debate - that makes them fair game, in my opinion. If you can't handle disagreement, it was probably a bad idea to post on Revleft. If you can, and want to debate, then it was a good idea.
don't think i don't want to discuss these things with you. i wouldnt have come here if i didnt. its hard to argue something i feel very strongly about i guess. my problem comes in like so. politically, economically, socially, we likely aren't all that different, but on this sticking point of "faith" and "spirit" we catch and bind. you are a materialist, and so your viewpoint is based in the material world. i believe in a transcendent reality, so my viewpoint is based in both the material world, and that which i have faith in being true.

im happy, oh so happy, to debate with you, but at some point we're going to come to a block where neither of us is making headway. can you and i not simply agree to disagree? your welcome to continue with the debating, and i'll stick with it as best i can, but surely you agree that the fundamental differences in our beliefs will prevent you from understanding what i believe to be true, and will prevent me from being able to explain them to you in a satisfactory manner.:w00t: